EPTAnd the recall ability is also a bad bad ability. Seriously, now, how is it possible to punish a protoss that is going too agressiv ? Just have to recall back...
New HotS Units/Abilities in Blizzcon - Page 300
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
And the recall ability is also a bad bad ability. Seriously, now, how is it possible to punish a protoss that is going too agressiv ? Just have to recall back... | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:30 sleepingdog wrote: The nexus recall could most definitely be game-changing in PvZ - HuK is going to love it. You can move out and pressure with the potential to straight up kill greedy zergs, without having to be afraid to get overwhelmed and just...well...lose right there. Oracle and replicant are cool and cute, but this recall ability could change so much more, the whole flow of the game. It's going to be stupid because protoss are never going to lose battles. Is they winning a battle, then everything is fine, and if they see they are losing they can just mass recall to town. I can't imagine such ability going into release, cause you won't ever see normal battles where zerg or terran is winning, just nonsense. | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
If they start balancing everything around the replicator, and end up having to nerf other things as a result, protoss is going to end up not even being a fully viable race on its own. Just get rid of it. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Very hyped for HotS, thank you BLizz it looks awesome. I am pretty sure you guys will balance it out perfectly. | ||
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Shurayuki
Germany2665 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:31 Teoita wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 22 2011 23:28 Dommk wrote: It solves the two biggest Problem of the Protoss race, how fragile they are and the lack of a harass and high skill requirement high reward units One of the most difficult things to do is retreat as Protoss because the nature of their deathball and their unit formation means that they are very vulnerable on the retreat. The vast majority of the time the only thing you can ever save is Stalkers. Templars/Sentries and sometimes Zealots usually just forfeit their lives when you are put in a bad position. How many times can you remember GSL Protoss being in such a bad position that they end up losing virtually every Colossus as they try to run away due to Vikings? I'll be honest, I couldn't give you a specific game but virtually everyone has seen it happen--and I'll bet virtually every Protoss player cringes when they see it happen  The Mass recall change means that not only can you retreat in the above situations safely, but it will now be easier to defend your cross map expansions as well. Too many MMM or Ling/Roach for Gateway units to handle? Recall a few Colossus from your main army to save your expansion! Base trading in WOL makes every Protoss cry. HOTS!? The words "Don't base trade a Protoss" will be music to my ears. Arch Shield will mean that Six pools, Ling/Roach all-ins, Marine SCV allins, Proxy Zealots, 4gates, etc will all be much easier to hold with Gateway forge expands or even Nexus firsts builds. Oracle adds a new way to harass in HOTS, it isn't the same as baneling bombs but it can be just as strong given the right situation--i.e Disabling key tech structures before a Zerg remaxes, crippling your opponents upgrade progression, halting your opponents all-in or mid game timings, and being able to keep tabs on what your opponents are actually doing. Being able to view what tech your opponent is researching might not seem like a big deal, but apparently the buff lasts for 2mins, so you can cast it on your opponents lair or maybe even a tech Starport before anything happens and see them creating Banshees or researching Overlrod drops later on, it just means players who want to be safe won't get caught with their pants down as much anymore. Think about endgame ZvP, you can keep buffing the spire every 2mins to know exactly when the Zerg is going for their Broodlord timing--that kind of information wins games. The Replicant just looks like a skill based unit. There is nothing standard about it, how effective it will be comes down to how well the player who creates it uses it. The Tempest is more of a niche unit--which is fine, it fills a hole right now where Protoss are lacking The Oracle is pretty interesting and can probably be tweaked into a very effective unit just by changing it's cost, but i have serious doubts about the Replicant. It seems one of those things, like wg and forcefields, that's either too strong or too weak, and might eventually need such tweaks and other weaknesses in the race, that it's not worth it just for the "cool" factor...you know, kinda like dragoons vs stalkers. I SO wish the way to hold a 111 was to hold-position kite it all the way back home for example ^^ just the general mechanics of the dragoon were so nice the kiting and prodding a bunker in PvT are the things that will never feel and look as good with a stalker but i like the plasma ball the tempest shoots, kinda reminiscent of the dragoon ball PROTOSS NEEDS MORE PLASMA BALLS (colossus should lob aoe plasma balls please lol) | ||
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
Blizzard balance team railing against "Dealth Ball" makes me sad and depressed because those 2 base all in "death balls" don't work and those 3 base "Death Balls" lose out to MMM+GV Death Ball and Lord/Infestor death ball. /facepalm at the level of play they are balancing for. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:35 Garmer wrote: with the replicant u can have the ability of the replicated unit, even if this ability is not researched by your opponents, this is pretty awesome You have to keep in mind you have to actually click on a unit for it to transform it to. Say you are playing PvT, now things may change but who makes seige tanks atm? If you are doing 1-1-1 or id you are Goody... Meaning unless they make a tank you can't copy it. Standard comp is MMMVG, what are you going to copy? Ghost would be only real choice, but most of ghosts usefulness comes from shield draining TvP, all you can with it is use it for EMPing their ghosts (might actually make the PvT HT/ghost micro balanced :p) but you see where I'm coming from. | ||
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BirdKiller
United States428 Posts
As for the Oracle unit, I expect placing a Cannon / Spine Crawler / Siege Tank / Marauder or two at the mineral is going to negate that unit quickly. Hell, Terran player won't have to worry if they have a Planetary Fortress. | ||
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Shurayuki
Germany2665 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:37 Alpina wrote: It's going to be stupid because protoss are never going to lose battles. Is they winning a battle, then everything is fine, and if they see they are losing they can just mass recall to town. I can't imagine such ability going into release, cause you won't ever see normal battles where zerg or terran is winning, just nonsense. tbh where's the huge difference though? good protosses now just fight 'till the meatshield is gone and then retreat, it's the same! P is the most reliant race on keeping their gas units so it really fits the theme...on paper it seems nice replicator sounds stupid on paper but in the video it looked like it might work...in the end it will probalby end like DA though | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:37 Alpina wrote: It's going to be stupid because protoss are never going to lose battles. Is they winning a battle, then everything is fine, and if they see they are losing they can just mass recall to town. I can't imagine such ability going into release, cause you won't ever see normal battles where zerg or terran is winning, just nonsense. If they ever do take it out of the game, they would have to give toss a ton of compensation, because right now, without nexus recall I won't have any reason to play toss in HotS, and neither will most toss. Mass recall on nexus is the only thing that protosses have to be really happy about. The units are a joke compared to what zerg got, and what terran already has. Maybe Blizzard's plan is to keep toss units weak, but have a bunch of abilities to make them the most annoying race in history. | ||
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blackbrrd
Norway477 Posts
Terran on the other hand have assorted units, nearly all of which are good on their own: Hellion, Marine, Marauder, etc. I really have NO idea of how the new units will affect the balance in the game, they are just really really whacky. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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GreyMasta
Canada197 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:34 Whitewing wrote: What? It only takes upgrades the opposing player has researched, it doesn't come with all the upgrades maxxed out automatically no matter what. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/lkmi0/full_breakdown_of_the_sc2_multiplayer_panel/ At least it comes with the Ability Upgrades: Replicant A new unit that's being built in the Robotics Facility. It's (only) ability is to duplicate a unit that's currently visible on the map. What's interesting to note about this unit is that if you replicate i.e. a banshee, and the terran player doesn't have cloak researched - your replication will have cloak. In other words; whenever you replicate a unit, you'll have all the available upgrades for that unit. Tanks will have siegemode, ravens will have seeker missile etc. It costs 200/200 and 4 supply, so if you replicate a marine, you'll use 4 supply to hold a 1 supply unit. You can indeed replicate workers and build structures with the new worker. | ||
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Laids
United Kingdom596 Posts
At the end of the day it's pretty pointless discussing what could be op or up, it's not even beta yet :/ | ||
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Shurayuki
Germany2665 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:39 VTPerfect wrote: "There are 55 Terran/Zerg units that instantly clean up an entire mineral line, fortunately however, this unit is Protoss and therefore isnt one of them" Blizzard balance team railing against "Dealth Ball" makes me sad and depressed because those 2 base all in "death balls" don't work and those 3 base "Death Balls" lose out to MMM+GV Death Ball and Lord/Infestor death ball. /facepalm at the level of play they are balancing for. now that's something to put in a sig haha *sadface* what happened to the Protoss who flame a whole planet to death just because there might be zergs on it | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:31 Teoita wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 22 2011 23:28 Dommk wrote: It solves the two biggest Problem of the Protoss race, how fragile they are and the lack of a harass and high skill requirement high reward units One of the most difficult things to do is retreat as Protoss because the nature of their deathball and their unit formation means that they are very vulnerable on the retreat. The vast majority of the time the only thing you can ever save is Stalkers. Templars/Sentries and sometimes Zealots usually just forfeit their lives when you are put in a bad position. How many times can you remember GSL Protoss being in such a bad position that they end up losing virtually every Colossus as they try to run away due to Vikings? I'll be honest, I couldn't give you a specific game but virtually everyone has seen it happen--and I'll bet virtually every Protoss player cringes when they see it happen The Mass recall change means that not only can you retreat in the above situations safely, but it will now be easier to defend your cross map expansions as well. Too many MMM or Ling/Roach for Gateway units to handle? Recall a few Colossus from your main army to save your expansion! Base trading in WOL makes every Protoss cry. HOTS!? The words "Don't base trade a Protoss" will be music to my ears. Arch Shield will mean that Six pools, Ling/Roach all-ins, Marine SCV allins, Proxy Zealots, 4gates, etc will all be much easier to hold with Gateway forge expands or even Nexus firsts builds. Oracle adds a new way to harass in HOTS, it isn't the same as baneling bombs but it can be just as strong given the right situation--i.e Disabling key tech structures before a Zerg remaxes, crippling your opponents upgrade progression, halting your opponents all-in or mid game timings, and being able to keep tabs on what your opponents are actually doing. Being able to view what tech your opponent is researching might not seem like a big deal, but apparently the buff lasts for 2mins, so you can cast it on your opponents lair or maybe even a tech Starport before anything happens and see them creating Banshees or researching Overlrod drops later on, it just means players who want to be safe won't get caught with their pants down as much anymore. Think about endgame ZvP, you can keep buffing the spire every 2mins to know exactly when the Zerg is going for their Broodlord timing--that kind of information wins games. The Replicant just looks like a skill based unit. There is nothing standard about it, how effective it will be comes down to how well the player who creates it uses it. The Tempest is more of a niche unit--which is fine, it fills a hole right now where Protoss are lacking The Oracle is pretty interesting and can probably be tweaked into a very effective unit just by changing it's cost, but i have serious doubts about the Replicant. It seems one of those things, like wg and forcefields, that's either too strong or too weak, and might eventually need such tweaks and other weaknesses in the race, that it's not worth it just for the "cool" factor...you know, kinda like dragoons vs stalkers. I SO wish the way to hold a 111 was to hold-position kite it all the way back home for example ^^ Imagine day9 saying "uh uh" as he is watching 3 dts killing a hive. Imagine day9 saying "uh uh " as he is watching a nuke kill 30 probes. Imagine day9 saying "uh uh" as blue flame hellions are killing all 20 scvs. Imagine day9 saying "uh uh" as oracles are "forcefielding" 4 of your mineral fields when your on 4 bases and hence makes your economy 10 % weaker for 10 seconds before they are killed. The last one makes no sense. The oracle really doesn't have any potential "uh uh" moments. And really what is the role of the oracle? At time xx of the game you will make 3 oracles to harass your opponents economy a bit which creates no uhuh moments. This is just plain boring. By interesting harass units you need units which requires rewards micro from both players (micro =/clicks). The oracle is going to be this kind of unit: "Oh he blocked my mineral pathes. Guess I have to send a few units to kill them, sigh". This isn't gonna be fun to watch for anyone, and imo this unit looks like some kind of "overseer" type, as it has an ability that is similar of function to contaminate. But at least the overseer was a scout/detector unit. Toss already has observer, the oracle is just stupid. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:31 Teoita wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 22 2011 23:28 Dommk wrote: It solves the two biggest Problem of the Protoss race, how fragile they are and the lack of a harass and high skill requirement high reward units One of the most difficult things to do is retreat as Protoss because the nature of their deathball and their unit formation means that they are very vulnerable on the retreat. The vast majority of the time the only thing you can ever save is Stalkers. Templars/Sentries and sometimes Zealots usually just forfeit their lives when you are put in a bad position. How many times can you remember GSL Protoss being in such a bad position that they end up losing virtually every Colossus as they try to run away due to Vikings? I'll be honest, I couldn't give you a specific game but virtually everyone has seen it happen--and I'll bet virtually every Protoss player cringes when they see it happen The Mass recall change means that not only can you retreat in the above situations safely, but it will now be easier to defend your cross map expansions as well. Too many MMM or Ling/Roach for Gateway units to handle? Recall a few Colossus from your main army to save your expansion! Base trading in WOL makes every Protoss cry. HOTS!? The words "Don't base trade a Protoss" will be music to my ears. Arch Shield will mean that Six pools, Ling/Roach all-ins, Marine SCV allins, Proxy Zealots, 4gates, etc will all be much easier to hold with Gateway forge expands or even Nexus firsts builds. Oracle adds a new way to harass in HOTS, it isn't the same as baneling bombs but it can be just as strong given the right situation--i.e Disabling key tech structures before a Zerg remaxes, crippling your opponents upgrade progression, halting your opponents all-in or mid game timings, and being able to keep tabs on what your opponents are actually doing. Being able to view what tech your opponent is researching might not seem like a big deal, but apparently the buff lasts for 2mins, so you can cast it on your opponents lair or maybe even a tech Starport before anything happens and see them creating Banshees or researching Overlrod drops later on, it just means players who want to be safe won't get caught with their pants down as much anymore. Think about endgame ZvP, you can keep buffing the spire every 2mins to know exactly when the Zerg is going for their Broodlord timing--that kind of information wins games. The Replicant just looks like a skill based unit. There is nothing standard about it, how effective it will be comes down to how well the player who creates it uses it. The Tempest is more of a niche unit--which is fine, it fills a hole right now where Protoss are lacking The Oracle is pretty interesting and can probably be tweaked into a very effective unit just by changing it's cost, but i have serious doubts about the Replicant. It seems one of those things, like wg and forcefields, that's either too strong or too weak, and might eventually need such tweaks and other weaknesses in the race, that it's not worth it just for the "cool" factor...you know, kinda like dragoons vs stalkers. I SO wish the way to hold a 111 was to hold-position kite it all the way back home for example ^^ I think the reason why the Replicant seems like a dud to most people is because they can't fit the unit into the game like they can with every other. It's entire purpose is to be what ever unit you can see. The unit can easily be useless in the hands of someone who really doesn't have any idea what they are doing. Someone might think its a decent idea to replicate a few tanks, but in the grand scheme of things they might not add much to your army and in the end probably was not worth doing it. Not that the tanks were useless, but rather it didn't add anything meaningful at that time in the game. But in the hands of someone who knows exactly what they are doing the unit might be absolutely amazing. Creating a bunch of tanks at a random time during the game because you thought it was a good idea isn't exactly the same as seeing an attack coming and replicating a Viper, knowing that the Cloud will buy you just enough time to help defend the push. The Replicant will most likely never be used the same in any consecutive game This is exactly what Protoss needed, something that is able to differentiate good players from the mediocre and also given the right situation provide high reward for intelligent play. I'm sure there will be cute timings or standard replications you can do every game to gain a small edge, but IMO, the vast majority of its uses will come from Pro players really abusing the unit to get ahead--things like replicating a Ghost in a clutch situation and EMPing all your enemies ghost, or Replicating a Sentry to give you just enough FF's to hold off an all-in. | ||
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BanelingXD
130 Posts
They haven't solved any of the fundamental problems of Protoss and seem to be at a loss as to how they can even do it. Ive been saying all along, SC2 was flawed from day one because they designed a Terran centric singleplayer game with high cool factor and left multiplayer as an afterthought. Now they're paying the price. SC2 was never built with balance between races or good roles for the base units in mind. I am frankly astonished that they thought replacing overcosted carriers with a hard counter to mutas at the same tech level would do anything to improve PvZ. Horrible | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:41 Archerofaiur wrote: Non-worker economic raiding is a very interesting RTS mechanic that opens allot of design space. Cant believe so many people are QQing it Browder sold it as "it definitely can have an effect of like, 500 minerals!" That doesn't seem like much, because you're not forcing the opponent to rebuild workers. I'd much rather have the chance to kill 10 workers... Also, have you seen Oracle's HP? It totals to 100 (20 shields, 80hp). Seems like 1 viking would shut it down. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:42 Laids wrote: I think if the Shredder makes it to beta, it will quickly be removed, the one thing Terran did not need was more harass potential and the ability to drop a Shredder into someones mineral line and wipe it out would take next to no skill. At the end of the day it's pretty pointless discussing what could be op or up, it's not even beta yet :/ I think it takes 8 seconds to activeate. At leagues above bronze shredder dropping would be pretty useless. | ||
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