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New HotS Units/Abilities in Blizzcon - Page 302

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
October 22 2011 14:57 GMT
#6021
On October 22 2011 23:55 Maxie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:53 Teoita wrote:


From the vid, it doesn't seem like oracles are any faster than speed warp prisms.


You act as if speed warp prisms are slow.


I didn't mean that. He was comparing oracle harass to warp prism harass, and from what little we've seen it seems pretty similar.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Basique
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)40 Posts
October 22 2011 14:57 GMT
#6022
On October 22 2011 23:48 Alpina wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:41 Fig wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:37 Alpina wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:30 sleepingdog wrote:
The nexus recall could most definitely be game-changing in PvZ - HuK is going to love it. You can move out and pressure with the potential to straight up kill greedy zergs, without having to be afraid to get overwhelmed and just...well...lose right there.

Oracle and replicant are cool and cute, but this recall ability could change so much more, the whole flow of the game.


It's going to be stupid because protoss are never going to lose battles. Is they winning a battle, then everything is fine, and if they see they are losing they can just mass recall to town. I can't imagine such ability going into release, cause you won't ever see normal battles where zerg or terran is winning, just nonsense.

If they ever do take it out of the game, they would have to give toss a ton of compensation, because right now, without nexus recall I won't have any reason to play toss in HotS, and neither will most toss.

Mass recall on nexus is the only thing that protosses have to be really happy about. The units are a joke compared to what zerg got, and what terran already has. Maybe Blizzard's plan is to keep toss units weak, but have a bunch of abilities to make them the most annoying race in history.


If protoss needs something better it's alright for me, just this mass recall thing is so stupid, I imagine everyone going to use it like in every single game in every battle..

Maybe it they limit its use for just 10 units or something, so you can mass recall defend vs. drops, but complete army retreat in seconds looks very bad for me.


I think it's excellent ! It means the 3 races have different way of moving around the map, Zerg have speed and can be all around with zerglings and mutas, Terran hold positions with tanks and shredders, and protoss teleports with warpgate and recall.

It's another thing that differentiate the race game design wise, movement !
Keep it basique.
Brotocol
Profile Joined September 2011
243 Posts
October 22 2011 14:58 GMT
#6023
On October 22 2011 23:57 Basique wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:48 Alpina wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:41 Fig wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:37 Alpina wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:30 sleepingdog wrote:
The nexus recall could most definitely be game-changing in PvZ - HuK is going to love it. You can move out and pressure with the potential to straight up kill greedy zergs, without having to be afraid to get overwhelmed and just...well...lose right there.

Oracle and replicant are cool and cute, but this recall ability could change so much more, the whole flow of the game.


It's going to be stupid because protoss are never going to lose battles. Is they winning a battle, then everything is fine, and if they see they are losing they can just mass recall to town. I can't imagine such ability going into release, cause you won't ever see normal battles where zerg or terran is winning, just nonsense.

If they ever do take it out of the game, they would have to give toss a ton of compensation, because right now, without nexus recall I won't have any reason to play toss in HotS, and neither will most toss.

Mass recall on nexus is the only thing that protosses have to be really happy about. The units are a joke compared to what zerg got, and what terran already has. Maybe Blizzard's plan is to keep toss units weak, but have a bunch of abilities to make them the most annoying race in history.


If protoss needs something better it's alright for me, just this mass recall thing is so stupid, I imagine everyone going to use it like in every single game in every battle..

Maybe it they limit its use for just 10 units or something, so you can mass recall defend vs. drops, but complete army retreat in seconds looks very bad for me.


I think it's excellent ! It means the 3 races have different way of moving around the map, Zerg have speed and can be all around with zerglings and mutas, Terran hold positions with tanks and shredders, and protoss teleports with warpgate and recall.

It's another thing that differentiate the race game design wise, movement !


It seems too weak in the early game (75 energy would come at the expense of chrono boost) and OP in the later game, to be honest.

I don't think it will remain when the game is released.
"The Protoss ball of death is already too strong, so Protoss doesn't really need new units in HotS." - David Kim, Blizzcon 2011
dump
Profile Joined August 2010
Japan514 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 15:00:01
October 22 2011 14:58 GMT
#6024
On October 22 2011 23:54 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:47 dump wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:44 BanelingXD wrote:
Browder and Kim come off with the same kind of smug douchiness you might encounter at an Anime convention. Anyone who has ever been dumbfounded by an elitist geek knows what I'm talking about.

They haven't solved any of the fundamental problems of Protoss and seem to be at a loss as to how they can even do it. Ive been saying all along, SC2 was flawed from day one because they designed a Terran centric singleplayer game with high cool factor and left multiplayer as an afterthought. Now they're paying the price. SC2 was never built with balance between races or good roles for the base units in mind.

I am frankly astonished that they thought replacing overcosted carriers with a hard counter to mutas at the same tech level would do anything to improve PvZ.

Horrible


+1.

Like I said, Browder already admitted that they're going to prioritize "cool" marketable units in HotS. They aren't thinking about making the game genuinely interesting.


Yeh their protoss new units are just plain stupid. However when David Kim talked about tvp and the problems in that MU he seemed like he got it. I kinda have this feeling that Dustin browder is the problem. He is the guy who prioritizes "cool units " rather than good design play, and he doesn't understand what good design is.

The protoss are given new units that are boring, and doesn't really change how the race plays. At least tvp will be more interesting as they will be playing vs mech, but it still could be so much better. Why is the collosus unchanged? Why haven't they tried to come with a solution for making forcefields to not be a micro killer? Why didn't they get toss an interesting harass unit that requires skills to use optimally, and skills to counter?

The warp gate tech is kinda problematic as well. It would be so much easier to balance the game if they just removed offensive warp tech from the game, and hence forced toss players to use warp prism for that purpose.


I think Browder has his hands tied too. As with most software companies, I think the problem is the marketing department, which won't accept them adding any features that are hard to impress people with. Quoting again:

http://www.wtr1be.com/starcraft-2/dustin-browder-interview-2-0/

"Well, it’s tough. The Terrans have enough stuff already, thus it becomes a guessing game to know what to do for them. We have to be careful about what new units we can add to the game. At the end of the day, we still have to add in cool s***. [Players] are giving us their money; we have to give them something cool."

To be honest I think this is the end of the discussion; there's really not much to say once the devs have admitted to not trying to improve the game.
blahblahblahwhatever
Profile Joined June 2011
Armenia52 Posts
October 22 2011 14:59 GMT
#6025
Looks like EA doesn't have to bother with a new C&C game, Blizzard made it for them.
atavus
Profile Joined March 2011
France60 Posts
October 22 2011 14:59 GMT
#6026
On October 22 2011 23:54 Hider wrote:
Why haven't they tried to come with a solution for making forcefields to not be a micro killer?


Remove rooting from infestor's fungal & CC to marauders then I will agree with you.
Brotocol
Profile Joined September 2011
243 Posts
October 22 2011 14:59 GMT
#6027
On October 22 2011 23:59 blahblahblahwhatever wrote:
Looks like EA doesn't have to bother with a new C&C game, Blizzard made it for them.


Ouch!
"The Protoss ball of death is already too strong, so Protoss doesn't really need new units in HotS." - David Kim, Blizzcon 2011
sc2holar
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden1637 Posts
October 22 2011 15:00 GMT
#6028
I agree. If there is one thing that protoss needs badly, its a way to quickly return their troops to their base to defend drops.

in the current game its a massive headache considering how slow the gateway units are and how they line up in a long train of units with a diagonal line of stalkers in the front and the zealots in the back.

the recall change HAS to go live.
you no take candle
jinixxx123
Profile Joined June 2010
543 Posts
October 22 2011 15:01 GMT
#6029
On October 22 2011 23:57 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:55 Maxie wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:53 Teoita wrote:


From the vid, it doesn't seem like oracles are any faster than speed warp prisms.


You act as if speed warp prisms are slow.


I didn't mean that. He was comparing oracle harass to warp prism harass, and from what little we've seen it seems pretty similar.



how is it comparable? at some point the warp prism has to go into the warp in mode which makes it completely immobile, whereas this oracle will literally never stop moving in the hands of a good player.
Aetherial
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia917 Posts
October 22 2011 15:01 GMT
#6030
On October 22 2011 23:52 jinixxx123 wrote:
i dont think people realize that the oracle moves really fast around the map, like the speed of a hellion IN THE AIR. I know protoss players ask for the reaver alot, but really, how do you propose this in the current game? reavers are really slow slugs, so that means they need shuttles, how will a shuttle WITH warpin and reaver big aoe blast damage be balanced?, i can see that being ridiclously OP against zergs, For terrans on the other hand, the reaver will be useless, how is that thing going to harass with a viking around to shoot down the shuttle? so in both cases its a failure. With the orcale however, the speed of that thing means its going to be SOOOOO fucking hard to stop with viking and unless zerg make corrupter or something, zerg will feel the wrath of a screwed up economy . Come on people, does blizzard really need to add another MEGA aoe unit to protoss? , i like these proposed changes instead


I would suspect a Reaver could not be warped in... what you sight as a weakness in terms of speed and the need for a shuttle actually imo is a strength because it opens up awesome micro possibilities.

One problem with the Oracle is that I believe it is quite weak health wise. In addition, it needs to strike the mineral line or near by it to be effective. Camp a Viking with its massive range or even the new warhound unit and Oracle = no good.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 15:02:31
October 22 2011 15:01 GMT
#6031
Here is a question (relates to the problem of the protoss race). What is going to be the role of the phoenix?

Kill mutas? Nop, tempest.
Harass eco + scout function: Nah oracle is probably better.
Beat mech? Nah with the new goalith type of unit, it prob. wont be usefull.

It might still se uses as i guess you can combine the oracle and the phoenix early game to harass and do dmg, but it doesn't really have a mid/late game role.

IMO it would have been much better if they reworked the spells of the motership. Kept the carrier (prob unchanged. vs mech play it is definitely usefull if you have a stronger eco than the terran player). Made another harass unit than the oracle.
And made a slightly change to the phoenix to make it better at dealing with large groups of mutas.
The protoss race just seems so extremely bad designed in HOTS, and i really can't imagine that David Kim had much to say on the proposals for protoss design changes.
BanelingXD
Profile Joined April 2010
130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 15:03:22
October 22 2011 15:01 GMT
#6032
On October 22 2011 23:48 Brotocol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:47 dump wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:44 BanelingXD wrote:
Browder and Kim come off with the same kind of smug douchiness you might encounter at an Anime convention. Anyone who has ever been dumbfounded by an elitist geek knows what I'm talking about.

They haven't solved any of the fundamental problems of Protoss and seem to be at a loss as to how they can even do it. Ive been saying all along, SC2 was flawed from day one because they designed a Terran centric singleplayer game with high cool factor and left multiplayer as an afterthought. Now they're paying the price. SC2 was never built with balance between races or good roles for the base units in mind.

I am frankly astonished that they thought replacing overcosted carriers with a hard counter to mutas at the same tech level would do anything to improve PvZ.

Horrible


+1.

Like I said, Browder already admitted that they're going to prioritize "cool" marketable units in HotS. They aren't thinking about making the game genuinely interesting.


I agree, except for 1 small adjustment to BanelingXD's post.

Blizzard isn't paying the price. eSports viewers are paying the price.


Long term Blizz will suffer too. I held off on buying WoL because of issues I saw in beta and after my experience here at Blizzcon i can't say I see the point in buying HotS. SC2 just doesn't make me want to play it. I bet the crowd that appreciates competetive gaming, like the esports crowd or maybe the kind of person that likes to play Go or Chess will be turned off by this. You'll get the type that likes the flashy stuff and Blizz will get money but they're sacrificing their reputation.

If Blizz wanted to do something correctly they'd hire a guy with a math background who has expertise in game theory to balance the units and races.

Did I mention how Browder and Kim make me feel like Tollface cloned himself?
0 harvesters, 2700 minerals per minute. Mules are totally balanced!
Aetherial
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia917 Posts
October 22 2011 15:02 GMT
#6033
On October 22 2011 23:59 blahblahblahwhatever wrote:
Looks like EA doesn't have to bother with a new C&C game, Blizzard made it for them.


Burn!
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 15:05:50
October 22 2011 15:02 GMT
#6034
I feel bad for protoss. The tempest feels like it's fulfilling a need that didn't exist. Archons and templars handled mass muta just fine. And introducing a capital ship just to counter that one composition is... stupid. It's stupid. As for the replicator, how do you balance something like that? That aside, it's gimmicky and silly. The oracle I think is fine, except for the "mineral bubble" spell. I mean what the hell blizzard. I don't even know how to attack that, it's so silly on so many levels.

edit: Also, just AXE the damn Thor already. We know you love it, you think it's sooo cool, but it doesn't FIT!
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
BanelingXD
Profile Joined April 2010
130 Posts
October 22 2011 15:04 GMT
#6035
On October 23 2011 00:02 Aetherial wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:59 blahblahblahwhatever wrote:
Looks like EA doesn't have to bother with a new C&C game, Blizzard made it for them.


Burn!



They hired the guy that made the last CC to do SC2, what did we expect?

0 harvesters, 2700 minerals per minute. Mules are totally balanced!
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
October 22 2011 15:05 GMT
#6036
On October 22 2011 23:58 dump wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:54 Hider wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:47 dump wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:44 BanelingXD wrote:
Browder and Kim come off with the same kind of smug douchiness you might encounter at an Anime convention. Anyone who has ever been dumbfounded by an elitist geek knows what I'm talking about.

They haven't solved any of the fundamental problems of Protoss and seem to be at a loss as to how they can even do it. Ive been saying all along, SC2 was flawed from day one because they designed a Terran centric singleplayer game with high cool factor and left multiplayer as an afterthought. Now they're paying the price. SC2 was never built with balance between races or good roles for the base units in mind.

I am frankly astonished that they thought replacing overcosted carriers with a hard counter to mutas at the same tech level would do anything to improve PvZ.

Horrible


+1.

Like I said, Browder already admitted that they're going to prioritize "cool" marketable units in HotS. They aren't thinking about making the game genuinely interesting.


Yeh their protoss new units are just plain stupid. However when David Kim talked about tvp and the problems in that MU he seemed like he got it. I kinda have this feeling that Dustin browder is the problem. He is the guy who prioritizes "cool units " rather than good design play, and he doesn't understand what good design is.

The protoss are given new units that are boring, and doesn't really change how the race plays. At least tvp will be more interesting as they will be playing vs mech, but it still could be so much better. Why is the collosus unchanged? Why haven't they tried to come with a solution for making forcefields to not be a micro killer? Why didn't they get toss an interesting harass unit that requires skills to use optimally, and skills to counter?

The warp gate tech is kinda problematic as well. It would be so much easier to balance the game if they just removed offensive warp tech from the game, and hence forced toss players to use warp prism for that purpose.


I think Browder has his hands tied too. As with most software companies, I think the problem is the marketing department, which won't accept them adding any features that are hard to impress people with. Quoting again:

http://www.wtr1be.com/starcraft-2/dustin-browder-interview-2-0/

"Well, it’s tough. The Terrans have enough stuff already, thus it becomes a guessing game to know what to do for them. We have to be careful about what new units we can add to the game. At the end of the day, we still have to add in cool s***. [Players] are giving us their money; we have to give them something cool."

To be honest I think this is the end of the discussion; there's really not much to say once the devs have admitted to not trying to improve the game.


Well you can have cool stuff and good game design. I think storm is a great spell. Its cool to watch and adds up for interesting to play. You can keep the collosus as well, you just have to change how it functions. What about giving it an attack ability that you manually have to use, which rewards strong micro from the player using the collosus and the player trying to avoid taking damage of the attack ( i guess a similar concept to storm, but just made a pretty different kind of attack).
parkLife
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada125 Posts
October 22 2011 15:06 GMT
#6037
It just feels like Protoss is getting the short end of the stick once again
In SC1, ZvZ was Rock-Paper-Scissors... unless JaeDong was playing, then it was Rock-Paper-Scissors-JD, and JD beats all of them.
ckw
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1018 Posts
October 22 2011 15:07 GMT
#6038
Everyone is missing the point here, Blizzard admitted Terran has the most options and then turned around and removed TWO Protoss units and no Terran units. Wtf?
Being weak is a choice.
Daray
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
6006 Posts
October 22 2011 15:07 GMT
#6039
On October 22 2011 23:56 Dommk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:42 GreyMasta wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:34 Whitewing wrote:
On October 22 2011 23:25 GreyMasta wrote:
Just had a vision...

If replicants get Lair/ Hive upgrades the shit's gonna be crazy.
Imagine a very early replicator stealing the very 1st Roach coming out of a Zerg's hatch:

Introducing the Terminatoroach:
3/3
+Speed
? +Burrow ?
+Tunneling Claws!!

...While youre still on Hatch tech this bitch will be sprinting around on your creep, burrowing all over the place, regenerating energy like crazy and armored as FUCK, 1-shoting your drones...

o_o
Talking about lack of harrass unit, there you go.


What? It only takes upgrades the opposing player has researched, it doesn't come with all the upgrades maxxed out automatically no matter what.


http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/lkmi0/full_breakdown_of_the_sc2_multiplayer_panel/

At least it comes with the Ability Upgrades:


Replicant


A new unit that's being built in the Robotics Facility. It's (only) ability is to duplicate a unit that's currently visible on the map. What's interesting to note about this unit is that if you replicate i.e. a banshee, and the terran player doesn't have cloak researched - your replication will have cloak. In other words; whenever you replicate a unit, you'll have all the available upgrades for that unit. Tanks will have siegemode, ravens will have seeker missile etc. It costs 200/200 and 4 supply, so if you replicate a marine, you'll use 4 supply to hold a 1 supply unit. You can indeed replicate workers and build structures with the new worker.


Generally speaking, it is probably never worth spending 200/200 for a full energy Sentry, that seems stupid right? But I'm sure Protoss players have been in situations where they would give even 300/300 resources for just a full energy Sentry right then and there because it would save their lives.

Even though on paper it probably is never worth replicating a unit, given the right situation the unit can easily be worth significantly more to a player than what it is worth on paper.

You could always say, "what if you just made that extra sentry from the start and save your self 150/100!"? Well, there are a lot of things in Starcraft that you cannot predict but this unit helps you react to situations just like that. Maybe it was a Sentry in this game, maybe in the next it might be a DT, or a full Energy Infestor. or even an Immortal, who knows really.

Instead of the typical trading of resources for army strength, you are trading resources for opportunity--not everyone will always be able to take advantage of every opportunity but those who can will most likely always be rewarded beyond their initial investment

You might launch at someone replicating a Marine, but given a situation if Replicating that one Marine was what someone needed to turn a battle then you can bet they were glad to spend that 4 pop and 200/200 on that Marine!

Sure it will be highly unlikely, and you know what? I bet the VAST majority of "epic" Replicant plays will all be unlikely and all be different, but at the end of the day they were all worth what ever the Replicant replicated into. What it is Replicated into and how it is used will almost be guaranteed to be different from player to player. The Strength of the unit will come down to intelligent play rather than the standard attack move unit that is balanced purely on numbers.


People seem optimistic about the replicator but you have to realise that it comes from the robo and costs 200/200/4. I wonder if the replicated units come with all possible upgrades (Raven comes to mind with 3 upgrades) to that unit or only the activated abilities like cloak.
Catchafire2000
Profile Joined August 2010
United States227 Posts
October 22 2011 15:07 GMT
#6040
If you had the choice to win $50,000 in an SC2 tournament, the odds of you winning are higher if you pick Zerg or Terran. They are less gimmicky than Protoss and have a defined role in the game that is constantly being figured out. The new Protoss units being introduced seem extremely cosmetic and don't help the situation *much at all.

The Oracle. When compared to ling run by/mutalisks or marine drop/hellion/banshees that completely wreck your workers I find the oracle useless... So what if it doesn't kill your workers? Zerg/Terran harass disrupt your mining, kill your workers, cuz you to waste time making new workers, and oh, they are pushing at your door. Looks cool, but a poor man's harassing unit if you ask me. Don't get me started on the ability to determine what a structure is making. -.-

Replicant. Costs way too much and too reactionary. It's basically telling me that nothing in my arsenal is good enough so I essentially need what Toss/Zerg is fielding. In terms of using it against Protoss: why waste the extra resources to replicate a collusus or tempest when I can make it myself for cheap.

jabooty
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