EPTI didn't mean that. He was comparing oracle harass to warp prism harass, and from what little we've seen it seems pretty similar.
New HotS Units/Abilities in Blizzcon - Page 302
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
I didn't mean that. He was comparing oracle harass to warp prism harass, and from what little we've seen it seems pretty similar. | ||
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Basique
Korea (South)40 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:48 Alpina wrote: If protoss needs something better it's alright for me, just this mass recall thing is so stupid, I imagine everyone going to use it like in every single game in every battle.. Maybe it they limit its use for just 10 units or something, so you can mass recall defend vs. drops, but complete army retreat in seconds looks very bad for me. I think it's excellent ! It means the 3 races have different way of moving around the map, Zerg have speed and can be all around with zerglings and mutas, Terran hold positions with tanks and shredders, and protoss teleports with warpgate and recall. It's another thing that differentiate the race game design wise, movement ! | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:57 Basique wrote: I think it's excellent ! It means the 3 races have different way of moving around the map, Zerg have speed and can be all around with zerglings and mutas, Terran hold positions with tanks and shredders, and protoss teleports with warpgate and recall. It's another thing that differentiate the race game design wise, movement ! It seems too weak in the early game (75 energy would come at the expense of chrono boost) and OP in the later game, to be honest. I don't think it will remain when the game is released. | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:54 Hider wrote: Yeh their protoss new units are just plain stupid. However when David Kim talked about tvp and the problems in that MU he seemed like he got it. I kinda have this feeling that Dustin browder is the problem. He is the guy who prioritizes "cool units " rather than good design play, and he doesn't understand what good design is. The protoss are given new units that are boring, and doesn't really change how the race plays. At least tvp will be more interesting as they will be playing vs mech, but it still could be so much better. Why is the collosus unchanged? Why haven't they tried to come with a solution for making forcefields to not be a micro killer? Why didn't they get toss an interesting harass unit that requires skills to use optimally, and skills to counter? The warp gate tech is kinda problematic as well. It would be so much easier to balance the game if they just removed offensive warp tech from the game, and hence forced toss players to use warp prism for that purpose. I think Browder has his hands tied too. As with most software companies, I think the problem is the marketing department, which won't accept them adding any features that are hard to impress people with. Quoting again: http://www.wtr1be.com/starcraft-2/dustin-browder-interview-2-0/ "Well, it’s tough. The Terrans have enough stuff already, thus it becomes a guessing game to know what to do for them. We have to be careful about what new units we can add to the game. At the end of the day, we still have to add in cool s***. [Players] are giving us their money; we have to give them something cool." To be honest I think this is the end of the discussion; there's really not much to say once the devs have admitted to not trying to improve the game. | ||
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blahblahblahwhatever
Armenia52 Posts
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atavus
France60 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:54 Hider wrote: Why haven't they tried to come with a solution for making forcefields to not be a micro killer? Remove rooting from infestor's fungal & CC to marauders then I will agree with you. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:59 blahblahblahwhatever wrote: Looks like EA doesn't have to bother with a new C&C game, Blizzard made it for them. Ouch! | ||
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sc2holar
Sweden1637 Posts
in the current game its a massive headache considering how slow the gateway units are and how they line up in a long train of units with a diagonal line of stalkers in the front and the zealots in the back. the recall change HAS to go live. | ||
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jinixxx123
543 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:57 Teoita wrote: I didn't mean that. He was comparing oracle harass to warp prism harass, and from what little we've seen it seems pretty similar. how is it comparable? at some point the warp prism has to go into the warp in mode which makes it completely immobile, whereas this oracle will literally never stop moving in the hands of a good player. | ||
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Aetherial
Australia917 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:52 jinixxx123 wrote: i dont think people realize that the oracle moves really fast around the map, like the speed of a hellion IN THE AIR. I know protoss players ask for the reaver alot, but really, how do you propose this in the current game? reavers are really slow slugs, so that means they need shuttles, how will a shuttle WITH warpin and reaver big aoe blast damage be balanced?, i can see that being ridiclously OP against zergs, For terrans on the other hand, the reaver will be useless, how is that thing going to harass with a viking around to shoot down the shuttle? so in both cases its a failure. With the orcale however, the speed of that thing means its going to be SOOOOO fucking hard to stop with viking and unless zerg make corrupter or something, zerg will feel the wrath of a screwed up economy . Come on people, does blizzard really need to add another MEGA aoe unit to protoss? , i like these proposed changes instead I would suspect a Reaver could not be warped in... what you sight as a weakness in terms of speed and the need for a shuttle actually imo is a strength because it opens up awesome micro possibilities. One problem with the Oracle is that I believe it is quite weak health wise. In addition, it needs to strike the mineral line or near by it to be effective. Camp a Viking with its massive range or even the new warhound unit and Oracle = no good. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Kill mutas? Nop, tempest. Harass eco + scout function: Nah oracle is probably better. Beat mech? Nah with the new goalith type of unit, it prob. wont be usefull. It might still se uses as i guess you can combine the oracle and the phoenix early game to harass and do dmg, but it doesn't really have a mid/late game role. IMO it would have been much better if they reworked the spells of the motership. Kept the carrier (prob unchanged. vs mech play it is definitely usefull if you have a stronger eco than the terran player). Made another harass unit than the oracle. And made a slightly change to the phoenix to make it better at dealing with large groups of mutas. The protoss race just seems so extremely bad designed in HOTS, and i really can't imagine that David Kim had much to say on the proposals for protoss design changes. | ||
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BanelingXD
130 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:48 Brotocol wrote: I agree, except for 1 small adjustment to BanelingXD's post. Blizzard isn't paying the price. eSports viewers are paying the price. Long term Blizz will suffer too. I held off on buying WoL because of issues I saw in beta and after my experience here at Blizzcon i can't say I see the point in buying HotS. SC2 just doesn't make me want to play it. I bet the crowd that appreciates competetive gaming, like the esports crowd or maybe the kind of person that likes to play Go or Chess will be turned off by this. You'll get the type that likes the flashy stuff and Blizz will get money but they're sacrificing their reputation. If Blizz wanted to do something correctly they'd hire a guy with a math background who has expertise in game theory to balance the units and races. Did I mention how Browder and Kim make me feel like Tollface cloned himself? | ||
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Aetherial
Australia917 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:59 blahblahblahwhatever wrote: Looks like EA doesn't have to bother with a new C&C game, Blizzard made it for them. Burn!  | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
edit: Also, just AXE the damn Thor already. We know you love it, you think it's sooo cool, but it doesn't FIT! | ||
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BanelingXD
130 Posts
They hired the guy that made the last CC to do SC2, what did we expect? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:58 dump wrote: I think Browder has his hands tied too. As with most software companies, I think the problem is the marketing department, which won't accept them adding any features that are hard to impress people with. Quoting again: http://www.wtr1be.com/starcraft-2/dustin-browder-interview-2-0/ "Well, it’s tough. The Terrans have enough stuff already, thus it becomes a guessing game to know what to do for them. We have to be careful about what new units we can add to the game. At the end of the day, we still have to add in cool s***. [Players] are giving us their money; we have to give them something cool." To be honest I think this is the end of the discussion; there's really not much to say once the devs have admitted to not trying to improve the game. Well you can have cool stuff and good game design. I think storm is a great spell. Its cool to watch and adds up for interesting to play. You can keep the collosus as well, you just have to change how it functions. What about giving it an attack ability that you manually have to use, which rewards strong micro from the player using the collosus and the player trying to avoid taking damage of the attack ( i guess a similar concept to storm, but just made a pretty different kind of attack). | ||
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parkLife
Canada125 Posts
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
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Daray
6006 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:56 Dommk wrote: Generally speaking, it is probably never worth spending 200/200 for a full energy Sentry, that seems stupid right? But I'm sure Protoss players have been in situations where they would give even 300/300 resources for just a full energy Sentry right then and there because it would save their lives. Even though on paper it probably is never worth replicating a unit, given the right situation the unit can easily be worth significantly more to a player than what it is worth on paper. You could always say, "what if you just made that extra sentry from the start and save your self 150/100!"? Well, there are a lot of things in Starcraft that you cannot predict but this unit helps you react to situations just like that. Maybe it was a Sentry in this game, maybe in the next it might be a DT, or a full Energy Infestor. or even an Immortal, who knows really. Instead of the typical trading of resources for army strength, you are trading resources for opportunity--not everyone will always be able to take advantage of every opportunity but those who can will most likely always be rewarded beyond their initial investment You might launch at someone replicating a Marine, but given a situation if Replicating that one Marine was what someone needed to turn a battle then you can bet they were glad to spend that 4 pop and 200/200 on that Marine!  Sure it will be highly unlikely, and you know what? I bet the VAST majority of "epic" Replicant plays will all be unlikely and all be different, but at the end of the day they were all worth what ever the Replicant replicated into. What it is Replicated into and how it is used will almost be guaranteed to be different from player to player. The Strength of the unit will come down to intelligent play rather than the standard attack move unit that is balanced purely on numbers. People seem optimistic about the replicator but you have to realise that it comes from the robo and costs 200/200/4. I wonder if the replicated units come with all possible upgrades (Raven comes to mind with 3 upgrades) to that unit or only the activated abilities like cloak. | ||
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Catchafire2000
United States227 Posts
The Oracle. When compared to ling run by/mutalisks or marine drop/hellion/banshees that completely wreck your workers I find the oracle useless... So what if it doesn't kill your workers? Zerg/Terran harass disrupt your mining, kill your workers, cuz you to waste time making new workers, and oh, they are pushing at your door. Looks cool, but a poor man's harassing unit if you ask me. Don't get me started on the ability to determine what a structure is making. -.- Replicant. Costs way too much and too reactionary. It's basically telling me that nothing in my arsenal is good enough so I essentially need what Toss/Zerg is fielding. In terms of using it against Protoss: why waste the extra resources to replicate a collusus or tempest when I can make it myself for cheap. | ||
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