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On September 20 2011 06:54 Koorb wrote:
Since there are people who still misundertsand things...:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
- Lewellys stated that he didn't know about coL's intentions before the announcement of the transfer on TL Forum. However, he also said that he doesn't know if other people in Millenium's staff were in contact with coL or not.
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
- Contrary to Cedrix's (Millenium boss) statement in the OP, there were no "disorienting actions" from coL. The so-called disorienting actions was that they signed the contract during the night (in European time zone), and that Stephano is only 18.
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
Wow he really said that? Jesus sounds like a horrible team manager and just lol thats why they don't' care what the international scene thinks because they don't plan on sending him to international tournaments.
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On September 20 2011 06:51 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:32 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:27 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 WightyCity wrote:
maybe he just signed without reading. i do that all the time. lol you don't do that when you are doing a legally binding contract like that. fortunately, france provides its citiens legal protections for mistakes made in haste. stefano made a mistake, alright, but it needn't be life-destroying. why do you think it should be? Sorry when your an adult if you are not reading a legally binding contract and then just signing it you deserve the consequences. Why do you think he doesn't? I mean this is just dumb on his part. it wasn't a legally binding contract. further, young adults don't "deserve consequences" for briefly-made, quickly-regretted decisions to seek employment, if they change their mind in a timely manner.
He's 18. At what age exactly do you want people to take responsibility for their actions?
I honestly question what planet some of you immature simpletons live on.
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On September 20 2011 06:52 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:49 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 wats0n wrote:On September 20 2011 06:19 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts... There are a lot of people like this guy I quoted whose first posts are in this thread and they're repeating this same nonsense which the OP already disproves. Shills for Millenium? There's a difference between what Col wrote and what Mill said. You use Col's version and i used Mill's version. Neither you nor I was here so I don't think we can have a proper answer. Maybe Stephano's statement could enlighten us. And when i used the word "making", i didn't mean forcing or anything but come on, 1)He's 18 2)3a.m 3)He changes his mind the day after? Being 18 and it being 3am in the morning are excuses? No. Stop with the bullshit.
It at least shows complexity's mindset not to tell him to think over it and immediately sign it ,after several weeks of what I would call harassment. AND announce it immediately so that he can't turn back
If he doesn't want to answer them now they must have been quite a pain in the ass
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On September 20 2011 06:55 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:51 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:27 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 WightyCity wrote:
maybe he just signed without reading. i do that all the time. lol you don't do that when you are doing a legally binding contract like that. fortunately, france provides its citiens legal protections for mistakes made in haste. stefano made a mistake, alright, but it needn't be life-destroying. why do you think it should be? Sorry when your an adult if you are not reading a legally binding contract and then just signing it you deserve the consequences. Why do you think he doesn't? I mean this is just dumb on his part. it wasn't a legally binding contract. further, young adults don't "deserve consequences" for briefly-made, quickly-regretted decisions to seek employment, if they change their mind in a timely manner. He's 18. At what age exactly do you want people to take responsibility for their actions? I honestly question what planet some of you immature simpletons live on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority
Lol the age of majority for France is also 18.
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Sadly, in france, legislation is on the employee side every single f***ing time. And it's very protective. As long as your employee doesn't hit you, steals from you or does any kind of felony, you can't sue him. Generally, NA people find that our laws are very socialistics in a way. Actually they are but our left-wing politicians here do think it's not enough ^^
In France, I guarantee you that you can break any contract without risking much.
To make it shorter, I'd say that Stephano or M† won't be sued at any time by col.
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On September 20 2011 06:53 Thugtronik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events. Tbh this is the part that bothers me the most in all of this. Stephano is a fucking amazing player an should be given the opportunity to compete in as many international events as possible
Well don't be bothered, that part is false. Stephano will go to international tournaments.
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On September 20 2011 06:35 Popcorn1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:33 Paladia wrote:On September 20 2011 06:18 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:12 Paladia wrote:On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. As one soon learns, taking legal action is always the absolute last step and should be avoided at all cost. Even if they think it is a good idea now, in two years when this would finally go to court Stephano may not even play the game anymore and they themselves don't really care about it. This is without even considering the money, time and effort it would require during this period. As noted, they may not even have a steady ground to stand on in terms of the legal basis of their claim. It would be interesting to take a look at the contract but even if it was rock solid I wouldn't recommend anyone sueing someone internationally. Even national law suits should be avoided at (almost) all cost. First off, I'm pretty sure you know you don't have to tell me things like these. Secondly, this is beside the point. It's a ballsy move if coL were to follow through and yes it might lead to sick complications but it's still a move that someone eventually has to do if you want to keep validity of contracts within e-sports. If this is looked over again, and again, and again, contracts will hold absolutely no value in the end. Of course but as others read it as well I may as well state the obvious. As for the contracts, yes, they will have to be enforced eventually if enough money is in the scene. It is getting to that point but as of yet the organisations do not have the financial muscles to go through with a law suit of this type, at least not internationally. It could likely lead to bankruptcy. For even if they would win, what would they gain? Who ever they sue will likely not be able to pay their legal fees anyway, and as for the actual damages by the breach, those are minimal if even existent in itself. It should also be noted that this is not how it is done in the sports world. It would take too long and cost too much to go through the standard court system. You don't go around sueing players or organisations left and right. It is solved by some kind of court of arbitration, there is even a specific one for sports. If CoL were knowledgeable about this and had a solid contract, they would have made sure to use a court of arbitration in their contract and as such we would know nothing about this (as it is kept secret). In the contract it states, The jurisdiction is Texas, USA
you can't actually just declare unilaterally that you will apply local labour law to someone you're employing in a foreign nation. again, contracts aren't magic; they can only do certain specific things as defined by law. this is not one of them.
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On September 20 2011 06:43 Sub40APM wrote:
Wow there are so many legal eagles on here.
Even if Stepano signed a real contract unless there is an indemnification clause in the contract how is Complexity going to prove any damages? And without proving any actual damage what is complexity going to sue for? I would love to see complexity actually try to waste a court's time with a lawsuit for an employment contract based on a video game. Especially in Texas.
But lets say the miracle of miracles happens, and complexity's contract does have an indemnification clause and some American court says that yes, (a) the contract signed is valid (b) legally binding (c) and damages have been found.
What are they going to do next? Stepano is a french guy, playing starcraft in france. At most the American court could garnish any of Stepano's winnings from tournament's in America.
Lol... Damages are not getting Stephano to play for them obviously. Something both sides apparently agreed was valued at whatever CoL agreed to pay Stephano.
And there is no reason to think this contract isn't legally binding other than people saying that since nobody has seen the contract and it is VERY difficult to get out of contracts ie the presumption in the U.S. is HEAVILY towards a contract being valid. Contracts come into force when you sign them in the U.S., not when the terms are carried out.
And a court in the U.S. definitely has jursidction since he signed a contract with an American company and intended to do business with them in the U.S. More than that, what's Stephano going to do, outlaw himself from the U.S.? If he loses in court and doesn't pay up he's basically going to be banned from entering the U.S. for the rest of his life on criminal contempt charges. Not to mention having to worry about extradition...
The only way Stephano wins this case is if the contract was somehow written so that only French law applies, which is possible, but would require something explciitly stating it in the contract to make it so. All these fucking wannabe lawyer posts are annoying...
TLDR: None of us know if this contract is legally binding since we haven't read it, but it is very likely to be binding and upheld in a U.S. court unless there's something specifically in the contract saying that disputes have to be litigated in France.
On a side note, this is really fucking shady from Millenium. It sounds like they're the ones who've pressured Stephano into doing something dumb. He's going to have a terrible reputation follow him because of this regardless of the contract situation in addition to whatever legal ramifications he faces, AND Millenium sounds like they want to keep him in France exclusively which career wise is a terrible decision for such a good player. This sounds like Millenium trying to get theirs and fucking over a player.
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On September 20 2011 06:56 NiarKal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:53 Thugtronik wrote:On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events. Tbh this is the part that bothers me the most in all of this. Stephano is a fucking amazing player an should be given the opportunity to compete in as many international events as possible Well don't be bothered, that part is false. Stephano will go to international tournaments.
Oh really, your source?
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On September 20 2011 06:56 Gowa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:52 Gatored wrote:On September 20 2011 06:49 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 wats0n wrote:On September 20 2011 06:19 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts... There are a lot of people like this guy I quoted whose first posts are in this thread and they're repeating this same nonsense which the OP already disproves. Shills for Millenium? There's a difference between what Col wrote and what Mill said. You use Col's version and i used Mill's version. Neither you nor I was here so I don't think we can have a proper answer. Maybe Stephano's statement could enlighten us. And when i used the word "making", i didn't mean forcing or anything but come on, 1)He's 18 2)3a.m 3)He changes his mind the day after? Being 18 and it being 3am in the morning are excuses? No. Stop with the bullshit. It at least shows complexity's mindset not to tell him to think over it and immediately sign it ,after several weeks of what I would call harassment. AND announce it immediately so that he can't turn back If he doesn't want to answer them now they must have been quite a pain in the ass
He thought over it for weeks.
This was the end of almost a month long process.
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On September 20 2011 06:54 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
- Lewellys stated that he didn't know about coL's intentions before the announcement of the transfer on TL Forum. However, he also said that he doesn't know if other people in Millenium's staff were in contact with coL or not.
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
- Contrary to Cedrix's (Millenium boss) statement in the OP, there were no "disorienting actions" from coL. The so-called disorienting actions was that they signed the contract during the night (in European time zone), and that Stephano is only 18.
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events. Regardless of the result of where Stephano ends up and whether Complexity gets compensated for this, I hope the red things above mean that Millenium doesn't get invited to leagues and people boycott them  . What an absolutely terrible attitude to display from a manager of a team.
100% agree with you here. Don't invite Millenium to any team leagues anymore. You can't just ignore the law...
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On September 20 2011 06:54 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:35 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from? stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it. so now you're calling the coL lawyers "jumped-up american idiots"? also the fact that just because "the contract makes no sense in France" doesn't mean it isn't a _legal contract_. what do you even think a 'legal contract' is? it's a document which makes claims and agreements under relevant laws. stephano is a french person in france. a contract isn't 'legal' unless french courts agree to apply its provisions to him or to extradite him to a different country.
Yes but how do you know that French law is the relevent law for one, and for second, how do you know that it is not legal. Just because the Mill manager who is not a lawyer tells me its not legal in France really doesnt tell me much.
(and I dont know why you keep talking about extradition, this has nothing to do with the matter at hand and is completely retarded)
You really seem like someone who hasnt ever taken a law class and relies purely on wikipedia, seriously.
''Stephano is a french person in France'', doesnt mean that France is necessarily the jurisdiction to consider when the other party is american.
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why do they want that guy so much? he's not that good
User was warned for this post
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On September 20 2011 06:57 Secret05 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:54 Insane wrote:On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
- Lewellys stated that he didn't know about coL's intentions before the announcement of the transfer on TL Forum. However, he also said that he doesn't know if other people in Millenium's staff were in contact with coL or not.
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
- Contrary to Cedrix's (Millenium boss) statement in the OP, there were no "disorienting actions" from coL. The so-called disorienting actions was that they signed the contract during the night (in European time zone), and that Stephano is only 18.
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events. Regardless of the result of where Stephano ends up and whether Complexity gets compensated for this, I hope the red things above mean that Millenium doesn't get invited to leagues and people boycott them . What an absolutely terrible attitude to display from a manager of a team. 100% agree with you here. Don't invite Millenium to any team leagues anymore. You can't just ignore the law...
No nono, you're supposed to invite them, and when they come, tell them they can't ;o
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On September 20 2011 06:52 Tamotab wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:45 Angra wrote:On September 20 2011 06:42 Tamotab wrote:On September 20 2011 06:39 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further OMG ITS NOT VALID CAUSE ITS NOT IN FRENCH DURRRRRP maybe someone just learn english or learn to use google translate. I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how all americans seems to think that american legislation should apply to the rest of the world... And it's funny how all the French seem to think that only the French laws should apply to international deals... And all the americans believe blindly what coL tell them, and assume it was an international legal contracts whereas nobody has seen it. When some french guys try to explain Mill point of view it's a Millenium multi account or nationalism. But the fact that all the americans stand behind coL, it's okay. For the moment the only things we know is that Stephano signed a "paper" and later changed his mind. Which is nor smart nor classy.
Can you for once drop the nationalism bullshit that a lot of Americans are trying to avoid? You make it sound like everyone American roots for coL. Apparently its already a fact that Mill's manager has said on stream he doesnt give a shit about TL or what the international community thinks. I think we have our answer as to whether they even care if its legal or illegal in this case, except that they found "loopholes" and abused them. Sure we can blame the coL lawyer in this case, or we can pretend these loopholes are French laws. But forget the laws for once, Stephano made some piss poor decisions.
You can simplify contracts to just being paper. Does that mean promises are just words? Emotions are just thoughts? Ideas are just imaginary things? You know this isn't true. Mill has already stated its a legally binding contract.
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What happens if both parties went into private agreement and thus become sort of like stephano 'loaned' to Col for 12 months or something.
or we could have another partnership? ;D?
COL.MVP.MILL.Stephano!
why so much drama and less positivity these days
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I feel bad for complexity, they have been put in a rough situation. I feel like millenium and stephano have not handled the situation properly, but the kid is 17 so I'm not too surprised that he doesn't quite understand the legal ramifications of everything happening. Unfortunately, I can't see there being an amicable solution too this situation
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He's 18. HE IS ABLE TO MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES. He signed a contract, and SHOULD abide... -_- he's less of a MAN then he will ever be now.
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On September 20 2011 06:55 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:51 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:27 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 WightyCity wrote:
maybe he just signed without reading. i do that all the time. lol you don't do that when you are doing a legally binding contract like that. fortunately, france provides its citiens legal protections for mistakes made in haste. stefano made a mistake, alright, but it needn't be life-destroying. why do you think it should be? Sorry when your an adult if you are not reading a legally binding contract and then just signing it you deserve the consequences. Why do you think he doesn't? I mean this is just dumb on his part. it wasn't a legally binding contract. further, young adults don't "deserve consequences" for briefly-made, quickly-regretted decisions to seek employment, if they change their mind in a timely manner. He's 18. At what age exactly do you want people to take responsibility for their actions? I honestly question what planet some of you immature simpletons live on.
i don't want people of any age to be required by a decision made early in the morning to work for months or years, without a chance to change that. fortunately, french law - and that of most first-world nations - agrees with me.
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France266 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:55 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:54 Koorb wrote:
Since there are people who still misundertsand things...:
(...)
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events. Wow he really said that? Jesus sounds like a horrible team manager and just lol thats why they don't' care what the international scene thinks because they don't plan on sending him to international tournaments.
I spared you the sentence where he states that coL roster is, quote :"Rotten". True words. And the moment where he states he doesn't care how the international community think of all that matter.
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EPT
