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On September 20 2011 06:54 Koorb wrote:
Since there are people who still misundertsand things...:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
- Lewellys stated that he didn't know about coL's intentions before the announcement of the transfer on TL Forum. However, he also said that he doesn't know if other people in Millenium's staff were in contact with coL or not.
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
- Contrary to Cedrix's (Millenium boss) statement in the OP, there were no "disorienting actions" from coL. The so-called disorienting actions was that they signed the contract during the night (in European time zone), and that Stephano is only 18.
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
I listened to it too, and curiously we don't have the same memories. But maybe I'm a bad french and you are a good one, right ?
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On September 20 2011 06:43 Piotr wrote:
Hi guys, french guy is talking here, so sorry for my poor english. I studied some labor law here in france in my graduate school.
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. (Convention of Rome)
The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French court but this one will take the foreign basis to decide. (still convention of rome)
... The Rome Convention ("Convention on the Law Applicable to Contractual Obligations 1980 ") only applies within the European Union, of which Texas is not part of.
Since this convention is the basis if the rest of your (otherwhise well-thought) post, it's pretty much unapplicable.
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On September 20 2011 06:58 xza wrote:What happens if both parties went into private agreement and thus become sort of like stephano 'loaned' to Col for 12 months or something. or we could have another partnership? ;D? COL.MVP.MILL.Stephano! why so much drama and less positivity these days 
they won't because mill is going to ignore any emails from complexity and same with stephano from what I gathered.
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On September 20 2011 06:58 itkovian wrote:
I feel bad for complexity, they have been put in a rough situation. I feel like millenium and stephano have not handled the situation properly, but the kid is 17 so I'm not too surprised that he doesn't quite understand the legal ramifications of everything happening. Unfortunately, I can't see there being an amicable solution too this situation
He's 18.
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On September 20 2011 06:56 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:35 Popcorn1 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 Paladia wrote:On September 20 2011 06:18 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:12 Paladia wrote:On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. As one soon learns, taking legal action is always the absolute last step and should be avoided at all cost. Even if they think it is a good idea now, in two years when this would finally go to court Stephano may not even play the game anymore and they themselves don't really care about it. This is without even considering the money, time and effort it would require during this period. As noted, they may not even have a steady ground to stand on in terms of the legal basis of their claim. It would be interesting to take a look at the contract but even if it was rock solid I wouldn't recommend anyone sueing someone internationally. Even national law suits should be avoided at (almost) all cost. First off, I'm pretty sure you know you don't have to tell me things like these. Secondly, this is beside the point. It's a ballsy move if coL were to follow through and yes it might lead to sick complications but it's still a move that someone eventually has to do if you want to keep validity of contracts within e-sports. If this is looked over again, and again, and again, contracts will hold absolutely no value in the end. Of course but as others read it as well I may as well state the obvious. As for the contracts, yes, they will have to be enforced eventually if enough money is in the scene. It is getting to that point but as of yet the organisations do not have the financial muscles to go through with a law suit of this type, at least not internationally. It could likely lead to bankruptcy. For even if they would win, what would they gain? Who ever they sue will likely not be able to pay their legal fees anyway, and as for the actual damages by the breach, those are minimal if even existent in itself. It should also be noted that this is not how it is done in the sports world. It would take too long and cost too much to go through the standard court system. You don't go around sueing players or organisations left and right. It is solved by some kind of court of arbitration, there is even a specific one for sports. If CoL were knowledgeable about this and had a solid contract, they would have made sure to use a court of arbitration in their contract and as such we would know nothing about this (as it is kept secret). In the contract it states, The jurisdiction is Texas, USA you can't actually just declare unilaterally that you will apply local labour law to someone you're employing in a foreign nation. again, contracts aren't magic; they can only do certain specific things as defined by law. this is not one of them.
Go away. You are so wrong its hurting me reading all the shit you just keep claiming
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3 games of HoN in a row and this thread has turned from a 11-page long into an 87-pages long one. Just comes to prove how many people here are lawyers, who have also read the contract :D
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On September 20 2011 06:55 blade55555 wrote:
Wow he really said that? Jesus sounds like a horrible team manager and just lol thats why they don't' care what the international scene thinks because they don't plan on sending him to international tournaments.
No he did't say that. I don't know why people are trying to put more drama on the drama.
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On September 20 2011 06:56 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:35 Popcorn1 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 Paladia wrote:On September 20 2011 06:18 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:12 Paladia wrote:On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. As one soon learns, taking legal action is always the absolute last step and should be avoided at all cost. Even if they think it is a good idea now, in two years when this would finally go to court Stephano may not even play the game anymore and they themselves don't really care about it. This is without even considering the money, time and effort it would require during this period. As noted, they may not even have a steady ground to stand on in terms of the legal basis of their claim. It would be interesting to take a look at the contract but even if it was rock solid I wouldn't recommend anyone sueing someone internationally. Even national law suits should be avoided at (almost) all cost. First off, I'm pretty sure you know you don't have to tell me things like these. Secondly, this is beside the point. It's a ballsy move if coL were to follow through and yes it might lead to sick complications but it's still a move that someone eventually has to do if you want to keep validity of contracts within e-sports. If this is looked over again, and again, and again, contracts will hold absolutely no value in the end. Of course but as others read it as well I may as well state the obvious. As for the contracts, yes, they will have to be enforced eventually if enough money is in the scene. It is getting to that point but as of yet the organisations do not have the financial muscles to go through with a law suit of this type, at least not internationally. It could likely lead to bankruptcy. For even if they would win, what would they gain? Who ever they sue will likely not be able to pay their legal fees anyway, and as for the actual damages by the breach, those are minimal if even existent in itself. It should also be noted that this is not how it is done in the sports world. It would take too long and cost too much to go through the standard court system. You don't go around sueing players or organisations left and right. It is solved by some kind of court of arbitration, there is even a specific one for sports. If CoL were knowledgeable about this and had a solid contract, they would have made sure to use a court of arbitration in their contract and as such we would know nothing about this (as it is kept secret). In the contract it states, The jurisdiction is Texas, USA you can't actually just declare unilaterally that you will apply local labour law to someone you're employing in a foreign nation. again, contracts aren't magic; they can only do certain specific things as defined by law. this is not one of them.
kljhglrehgluhaerg
You're intentionally ignoring the thousand posts by myself and others which proves that every point you have made is invalid.
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- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
LOL he never ever said that if I remember correctly...
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:56 Gowa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:52 Gatored wrote:On September 20 2011 06:49 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 wats0n wrote:On September 20 2011 06:19 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts... There are a lot of people like this guy I quoted whose first posts are in this thread and they're repeating this same nonsense which the OP already disproves. Shills for Millenium? There's a difference between what Col wrote and what Mill said. You use Col's version and i used Mill's version. Neither you nor I was here so I don't think we can have a proper answer. Maybe Stephano's statement could enlighten us. And when i used the word "making", i didn't mean forcing or anything but come on, 1)He's 18 2)3a.m 3)He changes his mind the day after? Being 18 and it being 3am in the morning are excuses? No. Stop with the bullshit. It at least shows complexity's mindset not to tell him to think over it and immediately sign it ,after several weeks of what I would call harassment. AND announce it immediately so that he can't turn back If he doesn't want to answer them now they must have been quite a pain in the ass
What YOU would call harassment, but coL has said they have documented evidence that everything was done kosher.
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On September 20 2011 06:58 ShootingStars wrote:
He's 18. HE IS ABLE TO MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES. He signed a contract, and SHOULD abide... -_- he's less of a MAN then he will ever be now.
it's very strange of you to tie the idea of masculinity to the american legal system. perhaps you think women should not have to abide by the law?
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On September 20 2011 06:56 Dietch wrote:
Sadly, in france, legislation is on the employee side every single f***ing time. And it's very protective. As long as your employee doesn't hit you, steals from you or does any kind of felony, you can't sue him. Generally, NA people find that our laws are very socialistics in a way. Actually they are but our left-wing politicians here do think it's not enough ^^
In France, I guarantee you that you can break any contract without risking much.
To make it shorter, I'd say that Stephano or M† won't be sued at any time by col.
I don't think col would sue them anyway, it is too costly and pretty pointless for them.
However, they will try to do what they can to deteriorate Millenium's image enough, so that other organisations will think twice before doing something like that.
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On September 20 2011 06:55 Bubulefou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:43 Piotr wrote:
Hi guys, french guy is talking here, so sorry for my poor english. I studied some labor law here in france in my graduate school.
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. (Convention of Rome)
The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French court but this one will take the foreign basis to decide. (still convention of rome)
That's why people who say that it's not a legal contract in france are totally wrong. On top of that, labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do :p ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. A particulary clause in the contract is not required for that. It is obvious that it the case here.
An other thing that is said is that if Stephano has not signed any thing with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. We have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). This is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a préjudice for col (economic, moral...). It is not unsual but I repeat that we need more facts to state.
You really have to understand that without more pieces of information we can't state on this. Maybe Stephano has not signed anything with CoL or maybe he has signed something very particular.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI of 12 months, that doesn't exist at all in France because CDI means permanent contract. This summarizes quite well the juridic problem : we don't know. And I agree with you, Millenium was unprofessional. But so was Stephano. In my opinion he should honor the contract with complexity gaming (but of course it is too late  )
it is professional to sign a contract someone to 4 am? without talking to the team or the manager? I think both teams made mistakes
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"He's only 18, he didn't know any better" -- Here in America you're an adult when you turn 18, when do you grow up in France? Apparently never.
"He was tired" -- And? How stupid are you French people that you sign contracts at 3AM?
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At this point, I think the major tournaments also have to step in and place some pressure on Millenium.
The response from Millenium management is just unacceptable in the grand scheme of things.
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On September 20 2011 06:59 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:56 Dietch wrote:
Sadly, in france, legislation is on the employee side every single f***ing time. And it's very protective. As long as your employee doesn't hit you, steals from you or does any kind of felony, you can't sue him. Generally, NA people find that our laws are very socialistics in a way. Actually they are but our left-wing politicians here do think it's not enough ^^
In France, I guarantee you that you can break any contract without risking much.
To make it shorter, I'd say that Stephano or M† won't be sued at any time by col. I don't think col would sue them anyway, it is too costly and pretty pointless for them.
However, they will try to do what they can to deteriorate Millenium's image enough, so that other organisations will think twice before doing something like that.
Oh I think this thread has done that quite a bit.
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On September 20 2011 06:59 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:58 ShootingStars wrote:
He's 18. HE IS ABLE TO MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES. He signed a contract, and SHOULD abide... -_- he's less of a MAN then he will ever be now. it's very strange of you to tie the idea of masculinity to the american legal system. perhaps you think women should not have to abide by the law?
Its even worse that you cant realize hes an adult in the US and therefore bound by and responsible for his actions
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Pretty simple concept, Not confusing at all, Stephano didn't bide by his legally binding contract, so now he's going to have to deal with the repercussions, It was foolish of him to do something like this, especially with a team that has one of the largest influences in E-sports, not to say Millennium doesn't have influence, it's just a simple matter of he disrespected the entire Complexity organization by allowing them to announce that they had acquired him as a player, then to be so rude as to not respond and revert back to your old team after already signing a contract. Scumbag Stephano screwing with E-sports.
[EDIT]
As for the loopholes within the contract, even if it does not abide by french labor laws, the contract was not produced for a french setting, if complexity chooses to take legal action ( Which they should) then they will undoubtedly win, having a signature on a contract is much more reliable in a legal sense then "Finding loopholes" honestly, Millennium has fucked up quite bad, it's not just a disrespect to Complexity as another team in the e-sports community, it's also quite despicable and horribly rude in the business sense, These people still need to make livings and to force someone into legal matters because your original team is butthurt that you left is just sad. I lost a lot of respect for millennium and Stephano simply from this incident. Shame on you guys, seriously...
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France266 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:58 Otolia wrote:
I listened to it too, and curiously we don't have the same memories. But maybe I'm a bad french and you are a good one, right ?
On which part ?
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EPT
