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On September 20 2011 06:59 Heazy wrote:
"He's only 18, he didn't know any better" -- Here in America you're an adult when you turn 18, when do you grow up in France? Apparently never.
"He was tired" -- And? How stupid are you French people that you sign contracts at 3AM?
This thread is a good example of why the world hates France. Bunch of wussy cry babies.
Age of majority is 18 in France as well.
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On September 20 2011 06:34 Tamotab wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:28 Skeet11 wrote:
Man, I don't know who to call the bigger dick. Millenium for persuing Stephano after signing a contract with compLexity, or Stephano for actually turning his back from compLexity after signing the deal with them. And no statements from Mill or Stephano? Wtf. Llewellys (team manager/caster) from Mill just spent more than one hour to explain Mill position and answer live question from viewers about this mess. A lot of people asked him to post an official statement on TL, but basically he said he doesn't care what the international community thinks and that a few days from now all this drama will be forgotten/yesterday news.
So your position is that the team manager already spent a great deal of time explaining everything and even if he didn't explain anything he doesn't care what the international community thinks anyhow?
I've seen nothing to suggest that a French National signing an employment agreement with a non-French entity (such a Complexity) would be covered by French Labor Law. If I (as an American) signed a contract to work in Singapore as a factory worker I would not be entitled to a US minimum wage. The work week in France is 35 hours, but if an employee were to work in the United States the expected work week would be 40 (unfortunately). And if a Brazilian were to immigrate to the United States he or she would be subject to US employment law.
According to French Wiki, a probationary period is option and must be explicit in order to apply. According to this professional athletes are considered "fixed term employees" under EU law which obviously would seem the closest fit to pro SC2 player. This supports Col's claims about the contract
I think Mil doesn't want to lose one of their few (arguably only) relevant players and used personal pressure to convince Stephano to back out and are trying to bluster their way out of the contract.
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Legal or not (I won't state of this, I'm a scientist and have no deep-understanding of the laws), I don't care. I just lost all respect from Stephano and Millenium alltogether. This behavior is wrong and unprofessional.
When I sign something, I give my words I'm gonna honor it following the terms of the contract. There's no way around it. It's called being adult. Or a man (macho version).
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On September 20 2011 06:52 Tamotab wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:45 Angra wrote:On September 20 2011 06:42 Tamotab wrote:On September 20 2011 06:39 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further OMG ITS NOT VALID CAUSE ITS NOT IN FRENCH DURRRRRP maybe someone just learn english or learn to use google translate. I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how all americans seems to think that american legislation should apply to the rest of the world... And it's funny how all the French seem to think that only the French laws should apply to international deals... And all the americans believe blindly what coL tell them, and assume it was an international legal contracts whereas nobody has seen it. When some french guys try to explain Mill point of view it's a Millenium multi account or nationalism. But the fact that all the americans stand behind coL, it's okay. For the moment the only things we know is that Stephano signed a "paper" and later changed his mind. Which is nor smart nor classy.
Their was a statement in the comments underneath complexity's statement by someone at complexity.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
It says right there that it was an international contract under the jurisdiction of Texas Usa.
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On September 20 2011 06:58 xza wrote:What happens if both parties went into private agreement and thus become sort of like stephano 'loaned' to Col for 12 months or something. or we could have another partnership? ;D? COL.MVP.MILL.Stephano! why so much drama and less positivity these days 
Why would you have an agreement with a team that's convincing a player to back out on a promise they made?
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On September 20 2011 06:35 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. 1, show me the contract since you've read it. 2. it made him a contractor, not an employee. Way to not understand any part of the contract which you have clearly read. i haven't read it, but we've been told it's not in french. therefore it is not valid. the concept of "a contractor" who is subject to less legal protections because the word "employee" was not used does not exist in french law, nor should it in any nation's law. it's frankly a disgrace that the usa gives its workers such limited rights, and you shouldn't be proud of it. as a people, you've grown to love the lash.
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PLEASE JASON SUE MILLENIUM.
This is a clear case of tortious interference. If you allow this to stand then contracts in e-sports will lose value. Complexity is one of the few teams that can afford to stand up and defend our rights.
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On September 20 2011 06:59 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:56 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:35 Popcorn1 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 Paladia wrote:On September 20 2011 06:18 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:12 Paladia wrote:On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. As one soon learns, taking legal action is always the absolute last step and should be avoided at all cost. Even if they think it is a good idea now, in two years when this would finally go to court Stephano may not even play the game anymore and they themselves don't really care about it. This is without even considering the money, time and effort it would require during this period. As noted, they may not even have a steady ground to stand on in terms of the legal basis of their claim. It would be interesting to take a look at the contract but even if it was rock solid I wouldn't recommend anyone sueing someone internationally. Even national law suits should be avoided at (almost) all cost. First off, I'm pretty sure you know you don't have to tell me things like these. Secondly, this is beside the point. It's a ballsy move if coL were to follow through and yes it might lead to sick complications but it's still a move that someone eventually has to do if you want to keep validity of contracts within e-sports. If this is looked over again, and again, and again, contracts will hold absolutely no value in the end. Of course but as others read it as well I may as well state the obvious. As for the contracts, yes, they will have to be enforced eventually if enough money is in the scene. It is getting to that point but as of yet the organisations do not have the financial muscles to go through with a law suit of this type, at least not internationally. It could likely lead to bankruptcy. For even if they would win, what would they gain? Who ever they sue will likely not be able to pay their legal fees anyway, and as for the actual damages by the breach, those are minimal if even existent in itself. It should also be noted that this is not how it is done in the sports world. It would take too long and cost too much to go through the standard court system. You don't go around sueing players or organisations left and right. It is solved by some kind of court of arbitration, there is even a specific one for sports. If CoL were knowledgeable about this and had a solid contract, they would have made sure to use a court of arbitration in their contract and as such we would know nothing about this (as it is kept secret). In the contract it states, The jurisdiction is Texas, USA you can't actually just declare unilaterally that you will apply local labour law to someone you're employing in a foreign nation. again, contracts aren't magic; they can only do certain specific things as defined by law. this is not one of them. kljhglrehgluhaerg You're intentionally ignoring the thousand posts by myself and others which proves that every point you have made is invalid.
And you're intentionally ignoring the fact that no one here has seen the paper that Stephano has signed...
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On September 20 2011 06:56 Dietch wrote:
Sadly, in france, legislation is on the employee side every single f***ing time. And it's very protective. As long as your employee doesn't hit you, steals from you or does any kind of felony, you can't sue him. Generally, NA people find that our laws are very socialistics in a way. Actually they are but our left-wing politicians here do think it's not enough ^^
In France, I guarantee you that you can break any contract without risking much.
To make it shorter, I'd say that Stephano or M† won't be sued at any time by col.
True, but the damage is done in the sense of TL's community anyways. And that can go a long ways in the current SC2 world. People will always remember the great Betrayal of Stephano. coL will become more careful when trying to recruit foreign players. Korean teams will look at their contracts one more time. In the end a newer bigger shitstorm will come along and by then we've all stopped talking about this. But man, I think Stephano/Mill lost fans today. coL probably lost some face too, but I don't think they'll have any issues recovering.
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On September 20 2011 06:56 Gowa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:52 Gatored wrote:On September 20 2011 06:49 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 wats0n wrote:On September 20 2011 06:19 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts... There are a lot of people like this guy I quoted whose first posts are in this thread and they're repeating this same nonsense which the OP already disproves. Shills for Millenium? There's a difference between what Col wrote and what Mill said. You use Col's version and i used Mill's version. Neither you nor I was here so I don't think we can have a proper answer. Maybe Stephano's statement could enlighten us. And when i used the word "making", i didn't mean forcing or anything but come on, 1)He's 18 2)3a.m 3)He changes his mind the day after? Being 18 and it being 3am in the morning are excuses? No. Stop with the bullshit. It at least shows complexity's mindset not to tell him to think over it and immediately sign it ,after several weeks of what I would call harassment. AND announce it immediately so that he can't turn back If he doesn't want to answer them now they must have been quite a pain in the ass
No where does it say that they made him sign it right away, he is the one who chose to sign it right there.
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On September 20 2011 06:51 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:49 EvOr wrote:
Wanna guess what's the next move of Stephano : Going back to his studies, he switch to a full time pro-gamer, right before entering med school, he will switch back to being a student...
Stephano is 18? He is going to med school soon? Really?
Why not? Going to university at 18 seems pretty normal to me
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On September 20 2011 06:59 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:56 Dietch wrote:
Sadly, in france, legislation is on the employee side every single f***ing time. And it's very protective. As long as your employee doesn't hit you, steals from you or does any kind of felony, you can't sue him. Generally, NA people find that our laws are very socialistics in a way. Actually they are but our left-wing politicians here do think it's not enough ^^
In France, I guarantee you that you can break any contract without risking much.
To make it shorter, I'd say that Stephano or M† won't be sued at any time by col. I don't think col would sue them anyway, it is too costly and pretty pointless for them. However, they will try to do what they can to deteriorate Millenium's image enough, so that other organisations will think twice before doing something like that.
And tbh, unless there comes a surprising turn of events, stephano and mill's reputation amongst the international community is near dirt level anyway.
And sure, he can just "hang around" french events, but if one day stephano wants to move on to an international team, NOBODY will be interested in signing him, NOBODY.
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On September 20 2011 06:59 Adila wrote:
At this point, I think the major tournaments also have to step in and place some pressure on Millenium.
The response from Millenium management is just unacceptable in the grand scheme of things.
Just ban Mill from any major competition for about 2 seazons..that would wake them up. Till then...Ladder my dear croissant players..ladder like u never laddered before...may the spirit of the escargot enlighten your path to glory in ladders.
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On September 20 2011 06:36 havox_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from? stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it. And the Australians would say that it's perfectly fine to not hold on to an agreement, cuz you found a loophole in it? That's amazing =)
that's how the law works, yes. should courts go by the "spirit of an agreement"? it's unworkable.
in this case, we're not talking about minor loopholes either, but massive, fundamental problems.
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On September 20 2011 07:00 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:35 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. 1, show me the contract since you've read it. 2. it made him a contractor, not an employee. Way to not understand any part of the contract which you have clearly read. i haven't read it, but we've been told it's not in french. therefore it is not valid. the concept of "a contractor" who is subject to less legal protections because the word "employee" was not used does not exist in french law, nor should it in any nation's law. it's frankly a disgrace that the usa gives its workers such limited rights, and you shouldn't be proud of it. as a people, you've grown to love the lash.
Oh, dear God, I think he actually believes the words he is speaking.
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On September 20 2011 06:37 Apollo_Shards wrote:
Millenniums post seems to me like
"arg arg French Nationalsim trumps contracts!"
not quite. "a lack of contracts" trumps "contracts". "the fact that there aren't any contracts involved here" trumps "contracts".
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On September 20 2011 07:02 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:36 havox_ wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from? stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it. And the Australians would say that it's perfectly fine to not hold on to an agreement, cuz you found a loophole in it? That's amazing =) that's how the law works, yes. should courts go by the "spirit of an agreement"? it's unworkable. in this case, we're not talking about minor loopholes either, but massive, fundamental problems.
so by "massive fundamental problems" you mean "not in french"?
K.
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as a law student myself I really don't see why you need to air this out to the public at this point in time. Doesn't make much sense because it really makes all parties look bad even complexity.
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EPT
