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This is just so tiring. I wish there was a legitimate internation e-sports body that could handle cases like this. It often doesn't make financial sense for teams to pursue legal actions in contract disputes, so I really think a governing body that looks at all contract disputes could do a lot of good for e-sports.
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On September 20 2011 06:52 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:50 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:47 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:46 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 20 2011 06:29 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 FlamingTurd wrote:
This is seriously bad. He signed the contract and Millenium is acting like just because he felt like staying that he can disregard that contract. What total BS that whole thing is. no, they're acting like because it wasn't a valid contract he can disregard it. signatures on bits of paper aren't magic. they're private agreements to do commerce, governed by multiple tiers of regulation. in this case, those laws don't allow for such an agreement. How do you know the contract isn't valid? many reasons, but the most obvious one: it wasn't written, coL and mill have said, in French. that's a requirement for employment contracts in France. How ambiguous. now cite the french law please. http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/N19871.xhtml"En cas de signature d'un CDI par écrit, celui-ci doit être rédigé en français. Si la fonction est désignée par un terme étranger qui n'a pas de correspondant en français, l'explication de ce terme, en français, doit figurer dans le contrat." now please translate that to english, since apparently the french doesn't like to use google translate on their own. "If a contract is signed in writing, it must be written in French. If the function is designated by a foreign term that has no equivalent in French, the explanation of this term, in French, should be included in the contract."
Apparently you don't know what a CDI is. As it's not simply a "contract".
Decent French contract site: http://paris.angloinfo.com/countries/france/contracts.asp
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lmao @ go eat a croissant
nuke france
User was banned for this post.
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On September 20 2011 06:54 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:48 Himali wrote:On September 20 2011 06:15 cheesemaster wrote:On September 20 2011 06:13 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:09 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 06:04 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:01 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place I'm under the assumption that coL who has been around since 2003 is perfectly capable of designing contracts that holds true legally in the US. Don't take me for a fool please, and don't take coL for fools either because they actually have a legitimate lawyer working for them. What you are not understanding Faress, is that just because Millenium points fingers saying the contract is not valid, doesn't really say jack shit as long as it's valid in the US. They clearly stated that the contract is missing things like the trial period (even if the trial period is 0 days) which is mandatory in EUROPE (CEE document 1991), but that's true that millenium could be lying about that but I doubt it Again what relevance does this have to whether or not the contract is legally binding in the US? Just like Jason says in his announcement, French and hell, even EU Law, might give stephano and Millenium right, IN FRANCE. But does the same apply to the US? You're simplifying things. Even if the contract is legally binding in the US (which it probably is) there's still a fuckton of things to work your way through (unless there's guidlines worked out between france - US) to make this work, but you are focusing on the wrong things. France Law doesn't have to give coL right in this in order for them to succeed. Agreed, people should read a comment made by complexity below their statement. Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet. In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/ Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough. After speaking with 2 lawyer friends (french): lol -> if you have a fee dozen grant to waste...even by going all the through obtaining a compensation representing a small proportion of the legal costs... come on, be serious. Obliviously Stephano did not communicate well with his team, making them understand what others were offering him (to give M a chance to match) or make them understand and believe that he would leave if he does not get a matching offer. Thats why negotiation should optimally be done by people who actually have the intellectual business background to make an educated decision (which rarely is the athlete / player / the guy investing all his time to master one activity to entertain people). In most arts and sports people get proper business representation (agents / managers / lawyers) for that very reason. In my opinion there were a lot of factors Stephano obviously did not consider when signing this contract. For one the enormous promotional asset Millenium is for his exposure and the leverage by being in a team of his nationality (which in promotion is always a huge factor when talking about name recognition, player promotional value and fan base development). He might have just compared the base salaries that both structure were offering and forgetting that not all the viewers connecting on his stream (generating add revenue for him / lasting name recognition) come from TL but that with 20k FB fans and one of the most visited e-sport sites in the world, Millenium is actually helping Stephano to build a growing fan base in and out of France (and say what you want, being the best French player, in the best French esport team that happens to also be in the top 8 foreign world teams should make up for those few hundreds a month (i'm totally guessing here) that made Stephano think for a brief moment that Col would be his best choice. Anyone who knows the apoprox. exposure figures of both communities and has any knowledge about sport promoting could recognize that: Stephano didn't. And frankly thats not his job. I can only guess thats what M means when they are talking about "disorienting means to influence". Couple of things id like to argue concerning this. 1. Stephano didnt have an agent, in this case, who else then Stephano (and his team) should Complexity talk too ? 2. The fact that Stephano didnt think it through before signing doesnt make it less binding. Now as far as col actually pursuing an action, yes it would cost some big moneys, but as far as I know they have big money and I think such a case would be important in order to have some sort of legitimacy to esports. A player signing and then deciding the next morning he doesnt want to leave his team anymore seems rather infantile and doesnt make esports look good at all.
I agree with all your points... Yet you can not seriously condemn the actions of Stephano when someone knowledgeable explains to him why this was an enormous error and he agreeing.
The same way I find it more than silly to condemn the management team of M for trying everything in their power, when seeing a player they have worked with for months, discovered, trained and most of all deeply care for, to make him see that this is would really no be in his best interest.
On you question that Stephno has no agent: indeed and it will stay this way until: 1) we get some serious consolidation in e-sport (see the history of MMA, the sport not the player) or we esport gets the exposure to realy compensate top30 world players with the kind of money allowing them to get some agents (managing several players). Because lets face it: teams are acting more like promotions that players managers.
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Jason Lake on reddit posted this when asked about how Stephano signed the contract.
It was a digital contract executed via Docusign.com. Beyond that, I'm not going to get into the legal options we believe that we have. I will say, however, that Millennium's recent live remarks seem to imply they may need a new legal team.
I am pretty sure millennium is about to get its ass kicked.
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On September 20 2011 07:03 broz0rs wrote:
From what I've read this seems very similar to when boxer Manny Pacquiao had the intent of signing with Golden Boy Promotions, only to renege on that promise and sign with his original promoter Top Rank.
Oh wait, Pacquiao didn't sign a contract.
I love you.
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On September 20 2011 07:02 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:00 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:35 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. 1, show me the contract since you've read it. 2. it made him a contractor, not an employee. Way to not understand any part of the contract which you have clearly read. i haven't read it, but we've been told it's not in french. therefore it is not valid. the concept of "a contractor" who is subject to less legal protections because the word "employee" was not used does not exist in french law, nor should it in any nation's law. it's frankly a disgrace that the usa gives its workers such limited rights, and you shouldn't be proud of it. as a people, you've grown to love the lash. Oh, dear God, I think he actually believes the words he is speaking.
of course i do.
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If coL have said that the contract states that it will be covered under US law then Mil have a problem, my flat mate who is studying law told me to read this i couldn't be fucked but scanned it page 9 is relevant:
http://www.idiproject.com/docs/user/NIL/2011/materials/23-Hahn_Karg.pdf
I really couldn't careless but thought I'd share it with those who seem to be wannabe lawyers, go crazy!
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- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
What a Waste
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Well this was a complete mess, I guess Stephano doesn't understand what a legally binding contract actually is and can mean if you break it.
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On September 20 2011 07:04 Megiddosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:52 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:50 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:47 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:46 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 20 2011 06:29 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 FlamingTurd wrote:
This is seriously bad. He signed the contract and Millenium is acting like just because he felt like staying that he can disregard that contract. What total BS that whole thing is. no, they're acting like because it wasn't a valid contract he can disregard it. signatures on bits of paper aren't magic. they're private agreements to do commerce, governed by multiple tiers of regulation. in this case, those laws don't allow for such an agreement. How do you know the contract isn't valid? many reasons, but the most obvious one: it wasn't written, coL and mill have said, in French. that's a requirement for employment contracts in France. How ambiguous. now cite the french law please. http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/N19871.xhtml"En cas de signature d'un CDI par écrit, celui-ci doit être rédigé en français. Si la fonction est désignée par un terme étranger qui n'a pas de correspondant en français, l'explication de ce terme, en français, doit figurer dans le contrat." now please translate that to english, since apparently the french doesn't like to use google translate on their own. "If a contract is signed in writing, it must be written in French. If the function is designated by a foreign term that has no equivalent in French, the explanation of this term, in French, should be included in the contract." Apparently you don't know what a CDI is. As it's not simply a "contract".
All hes doing is throwing misinformation on legal issues out there.
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Everybody talks about contracts...
Didn't Stephano state he is not contracted? Either Mill is lyeing or Stephano is....and from what i know about Stephano..he may just be lying about his real name....
Any way we look at it...and with all diplomacy possible i say this: Stephano fked up his career....more then once.....nuf said....
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On September 20 2011 06:58 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:55 Cyrak wrote:On September 20 2011 06:51 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:27 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 WightyCity wrote:
maybe he just signed without reading. i do that all the time. lol you don't do that when you are doing a legally binding contract like that. fortunately, france provides its citiens legal protections for mistakes made in haste. stefano made a mistake, alright, but it needn't be life-destroying. why do you think it should be? Sorry when your an adult if you are not reading a legally binding contract and then just signing it you deserve the consequences. Why do you think he doesn't? I mean this is just dumb on his part. it wasn't a legally binding contract. further, young adults don't "deserve consequences" for briefly-made, quickly-regretted decisions to seek employment, if they change their mind in a timely manner. He's 18. At what age exactly do you want people to take responsibility for their actions? I honestly question what planet some of you immature simpletons live on. i don't want people of any age to be required by a decision made early in the morning to work for months or years, without a chance to change that. fortunately, french law - and that of most first-world nations - agrees with me.
Most first world nations don't have entrenched socialist political systems in which the whim of a worker supercedes a legal contract they signed. Thank god for that.
No one forced him to sign at 3am (which to a typical pro-gamer is like 11pm-midnight for a normal person anyway). There is no evidence that he wasn't thinking clearly other than your ridiculous speculation.
Signing a contract also doesn't necessarily obligate you to work for someone (Alexei Yashin in the NHL for example?). It certainly does prevent you from signing another contract with a competitor while the contract is in effect though. I don't understand how these simple distinctions elude you. Your entire argument is very immature.
The world we live in functions as a result of people's ability to enter into agreements with others where there are guarantees that neither party will break their word. Your fantasy universe where people can reneg on agreements for no good reason would be a disaster.
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"We first contacted Stephano" That's were the problem begins, if a player is on a team under some water tight contract or not, interested teams should be contacting the team management first.
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The difference in professionalism in terms of the statements from both parties regarding this issue is clear to see. Millenium should really just agree and admit they were wrong at this point.
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This is what happens when you try to put the faith of your business in a 18 year old.
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On September 20 2011 07:04 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:02 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 07:00 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:35 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. 1, show me the contract since you've read it. 2. it made him a contractor, not an employee. Way to not understand any part of the contract which you have clearly read. i haven't read it, but we've been told it's not in french. therefore it is not valid. the concept of "a contractor" who is subject to less legal protections because the word "employee" was not used does not exist in french law, nor should it in any nation's law. it's frankly a disgrace that the usa gives its workers such limited rights, and you shouldn't be proud of it. as a people, you've grown to love the lash. Oh, dear God, I think he actually believes the words he is speaking. of course i do.
Then what do you not respond to me debunking everyone of you shit theories?
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If he signed first with coL without pressuring (which is pretty important element) then I dont see how Mill can have any rights on player? Assuming coL signed him as a free agent. That kind of contract can't have exactly that big holes.
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I wish people would stop trying to talk about the legal part of this without having at least knowledge (ie. have attended or are attending law school) of the related laws in a non-French country.
Also I wish people would stop saying Stephano is 17, maybe it needs to be in the header, because someone makes the mistake every 3 pages, and that gets followed by half a page of people correcting them.
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Dunno if this has been posted yet, but additional statement from Mr. Lake in the comments of the "Official Statement" on Complexity's website:
"Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough."
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EPT
