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On September 20 2011 06:49 Thurken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:26 wats0n wrote:On September 20 2011 06:19 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts... There are a lot of people like this guy I quoted whose first posts are in this thread and they're repeating this same nonsense which the OP already disproves. Shills for Millenium? There's a difference between what Col wrote and what Mill said. You use Col's version and i used Mill's version. Neither you nor I was here so I don't think we can have a proper answer. Maybe Stephano's statement could enlighten us. And when i used the word "making", i didn't mean forcing or anything but come on, 1)He's 18 2)3a.m 3)He changes his mind the day after?
Being 18 and it being 3am in the morning are excuses? No. Stop with the bullshit.
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On September 20 2011 06:45 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:42 Tamotab wrote:On September 20 2011 06:39 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further OMG ITS NOT VALID CAUSE ITS NOT IN FRENCH DURRRRRP maybe someone just learn english or learn to use google translate. I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how all americans seems to think that american legislation should apply to the rest of the world... And it's funny how all the French seem to think that only the French laws should apply to international deals...
And all the americans believe blindly what coL tell them, and assume it was an international legal contracts whereas nobody has seen it.
When some french guys try to explain Mill point of view it's a Millenium multi account or nationalism. But the fact that all the americans stand behind coL, it's okay.
For the moment the only things we know is that Stephano signed a "paper" and later changed his mind. Which is nor smart nor classy.
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On September 20 2011 06:51 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:32 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:27 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 WightyCity wrote:
maybe he just signed without reading. i do that all the time. lol you don't do that when you are doing a legally binding contract like that. fortunately, france provides its citiens legal protections for mistakes made in haste. stefano made a mistake, alright, but it needn't be life-destroying. why do you think it should be? Sorry when your an adult if you are not reading a legally binding contract and then just signing it you deserve the consequences. Why do you think he doesn't? I mean this is just dumb on his part. it wasn't a legally binding contract. further, young adults don't "deserve consequences" for briefly-made, quickly-regretted decisions to seek employment, if they change their mind in a timely manner.
Are you sure you're reading? :/
On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
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On September 20 2011 06:51 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:32 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:27 blade55555 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 WightyCity wrote:
maybe he just signed without reading. i do that all the time. lol you don't do that when you are doing a legally binding contract like that. fortunately, france provides its citiens legal protections for mistakes made in haste. stefano made a mistake, alright, but it needn't be life-destroying. why do you think it should be? Sorry when your an adult if you are not reading a legally binding contract and then just signing it you deserve the consequences. Why do you think he doesn't? I mean this is just dumb on his part. it wasn't a legally binding contract. further, young adults don't "deserve consequences" for briefly-made, quickly-regretted decisions to seek employment, if they change their mind in a timely manner.
PLEASE LEAVE, they negotiated for 18 days that shows considerable premeditation and forethought, your legal theories all suck stop posting them. Wait theyre not even legal theories, that would be insulting all the actual legal theories.
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Much ado about someone not worth the trouble - one of the highest paid players in the world? If you say so. Hope it doesn't turn into a protracted legal battle.
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one of the best payed players in the world + kr travle + expenses payed.... and from what i read this isn't the first time he goof's off a contract. He is either very.... i will not say the "R" word i will say "special" in the word's true glory and form, or France contract laws redefine stupidity.
Either way..Stephano..bro....this is not the first time u blew up a contract that could have changed your life. Gl hf gg in France...u will get all the croissants and escargos for your daily trianing and winns. Hope it's a good pay to turn down real money.
PS...i don't even see why he would be contracted as one of the best in the world. COL are u seriously out of options? He is a good player..but seriously? I think u can find better and more mature players in barcrafts really
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On September 20 2011 06:45 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:42 Tamotab wrote:On September 20 2011 06:39 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further OMG ITS NOT VALID CAUSE ITS NOT IN FRENCH DURRRRRP maybe someone just learn english or learn to use google translate. I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how all americans seems to think that american legislation should apply to the rest of the world... And it's funny how all the French seem to think that only the French laws should apply to international deals...
right? not to mention the international lay that allowed complexity to choose the law it was written under which is apparently texas USA, jesus it sounds to me like the people in favor of mill keep posting the same argument over, oblivious of the counter points.
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On September 20 2011 06:46 [GiTM]-Ace wrote:
lol thats pretty shitty of him to sign and then break a deal asap. At least he didnt receive money or travel for col. cause then it would have been really shitty. (still shitty though)
Not sure what they can do legally? force him to play for them ? Who knows I doubt its even worth it and I doubt they would want someone like that on their roster anyway.
Can take suit against Millennium and get some money out of it. Still lose the player but make a point that this shit won't be allowed.
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Stephano just ruined his entire e-sport career.... what a retarded move! you don't sign a contract and change your mind the next day unless you're a fucking child or something.
Whatever the "legal" weight of the contract ends up being, we now all know the weight of Stephano's word... Poor kid will learn the hard way but that's what he deserves.
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On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
Tbh this is the part that bothers me the most in all of this. Stephano is a fucking amazing player an should be given the opportunity to compete in as many international events as possible
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FUCK MILLENIUM. skeezy fucks
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On September 20 2011 06:50 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:50 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:47 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:46 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 20 2011 06:29 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 FlamingTurd wrote:
This is seriously bad. He signed the contract and Millenium is acting like just because he felt like staying that he can disregard that contract. What total BS that whole thing is. no, they're acting like because it wasn't a valid contract he can disregard it. signatures on bits of paper aren't magic. they're private agreements to do commerce, governed by multiple tiers of regulation. in this case, those laws don't allow for such an agreement. How do you know the contract isn't valid? many reasons, but the most obvious one: it wasn't written, coL and mill have said, in French. that's a requirement for employment contracts in France. How ambiguous. now cite the french law please. http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/N19871.xhtml"En cas de signature d'un CDI par écrit, celui-ci doit être rédigé en français. Si la fonction est désignée par un terme étranger qui n'a pas de correspondant en français, l'explication de ce terme, en français, doit figurer dans le contrat." now please translate that to english, since apparently the french doesn't like to use google translate on their own.
Translation :
"In case of the signing of a indeterminate time contract, this contract has to be written in french. If the function is referred to with a foreign term which has no french equivalent, the explaining of this term must figure in french in the contract."
Well, a try at least.
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United States4991 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
- Lewellys stated that he didn't know about coL's intentions before the announcement of the transfer on TL Forum. However, he also said that he doesn't know if other people in Millenium's staff were in contact with coL or not.
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
- Contrary to Cedrix's (Millenium boss) statement in the OP, there were no "disorienting actions" from coL. The so-called disorienting actions was that they signed the contract during the night (in European time zone), and that Stephano is only 18.
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
Regardless of the result of where Stephano ends up and whether Complexity gets compensated for this, I hope the red things above mean that Millenium doesn't get invited to leagues and people boycott them  . What an absolutely terrible attitude to display from a manager of a team.
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I've never gotten such a headache from reading one thread. Good lord.
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On September 20 2011 06:35 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from? stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it. so now you're calling the coL lawyers "jumped-up american idiots"? also the fact that just because "the contract makes no sense in France" doesn't mean it isn't a _legal contract_.
what do you even think a 'legal contract' is? it's a document which makes claims and agreements under relevant laws. stephano is a french person in france. a contract isn't 'legal' unless french courts agree to apply its provisions to him or to extradite him to a different country.
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France266 Posts
Since there are people who still misundertsand things...:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
- Lewellys stated that he didn't know about coL's intentions before the announcement of the transfer on TL Forum. However, he also said that he doesn't know if other people in Millenium's staff were in contact with coL or not.
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
- Contrary to Cedrix's (Millenium boss) statement in the OP, there were no "disorienting actions" from coL. The so-called disorienting actions was that they signed the contract during the night (in European time zone), and that Stephano is only 18.
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
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On September 20 2011 06:48 Himali wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:15 cheesemaster wrote:On September 20 2011 06:13 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:09 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 06:04 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:01 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place I'm under the assumption that coL who has been around since 2003 is perfectly capable of designing contracts that holds true legally in the US. Don't take me for a fool please, and don't take coL for fools either because they actually have a legitimate lawyer working for them. What you are not understanding Faress, is that just because Millenium points fingers saying the contract is not valid, doesn't really say jack shit as long as it's valid in the US. They clearly stated that the contract is missing things like the trial period (even if the trial period is 0 days) which is mandatory in EUROPE (CEE document 1991), but that's true that millenium could be lying about that but I doubt it Again what relevance does this have to whether or not the contract is legally binding in the US? Just like Jason says in his announcement, French and hell, even EU Law, might give stephano and Millenium right, IN FRANCE. But does the same apply to the US? You're simplifying things. Even if the contract is legally binding in the US (which it probably is) there's still a fuckton of things to work your way through (unless there's guidlines worked out between france - US) to make this work, but you are focusing on the wrong things. France Law doesn't have to give coL right in this in order for them to succeed. Agreed, people should read a comment made by complexity below their statement. Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet. In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/ Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough. After speaking with 2 lawyer friends (french): lol -> if you have a fee dozen grant to waste...even by going all the through obtaining a compensation representing a small proportion of the legal costs... come on, be serious. Obliviously Stephano did not communicate well with his team, making them understand what others were offering him (to give M a chance to match) or make them understand and believe that he would leave if he does not get a matching offer. Thats why negotiation should optimally be done by people who actually have the intellectual business background to make an educated decision (which rarely is the athlete / player / the guy investing all his time to master one activity to entertain people). In most arts and sports people get proper business representation (agents / managers / lawyers) for that very reason. In my opinion there were a lot of factors Stephano obviously did not consider when signing this contract. For one the enormous promotional asset Millenium is for his exposure and the leverage by being in a team of his nationality (which in promotion is always a huge factor when talking about name recognition, player promotional value and fan base development). He might have just compared the base salaries that both structure were offering and forgetting that not all the viewers connecting on his stream (generating add revenue for him / lasting name recognition) come from TL but that with 20k FB fans and one of the most visited e-sport sites in the world, Millenium is actually helping Stephano to build a growing fan base in and out of France (and say what you want, being the best French player, in the best French esport team that happens to also be in the top 8 foreign world teams should make up for those few hundreds a month (i'm totally guessing here) that made Stephano think for a brief moment that Col would be his best choice. Anyone who knows the apoprox. exposure figures of both communities and has any knowledge about sport promoting could recognize that: Stephano didn't. And frankly thats not his job. I can only guess thats what M means when they are talking about "disorienting means to influence".
Couple of things id like to argue concerning this.
1. Stephano didnt have an agent, in this case, who else then Stephano (and his team) should Complexity talk too ?
2. The fact that Stephano didnt think it through before signing doesnt make it less binding.
Now as far as col actually pursuing an action, yes it would cost some big moneys, but as far as I know they have big money and I think such a case would be important in order to have some sort of legitimacy to esports.
A player signing and then deciding the next morning he doesnt want to leave his team anymore seems rather infantile and doesnt make esports look good at all.
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On September 20 2011 06:51 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:43 Piotr wrote:
Hi guys, french guy is talking here, so sorry for my poor english. I studied some labor law here in france in my graduate school.
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. (Convention of Rome)
The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French court but this one will take the foreign basis to decide. (still convention of rome)
That's why people who say that it's not a legal contract in france are totally wrong. On top of that, labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do :p ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. A particulary clause in the contract is not required for that. It is obvious that it the case here.
An other thing that is said is that if Stephano has not signed any thing with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. We have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). This is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a préjudice for col (economic, moral...). It is not unsual but I repeat that we need more facts to state.
You really have to understand that without more pieces of information we can't state on this. Maybe Stephano has not signed anything with CoL or maybe he has signed something very particular.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI of 12 months, that doesn't exist at all in France because CDI means permanent contract. more people should read this
It should be added to the OP or something, this is the most enlightening post in the whole thread.
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On September 20 2011 06:54 Butigroove wrote:
FUCK MILLENIUM. skeezy fucks
+1
User was warned for this post
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On September 20 2011 06:43 Piotr wrote:
Hi guys, french guy is talking here, so sorry for my poor english. I studied some labor law here in france in my graduate school.
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. (Convention of Rome)
The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French court but this one will take the foreign basis to decide. (still convention of rome)
That's why people who say that it's not a legal contract in france are totally wrong. On top of that, labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do :p ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. A particulary clause in the contract is not required for that. It is obvious that it the case here.
An other thing that is said is that if Stephano has not signed any thing with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. We have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). This is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a préjudice for col (economic, moral...). It is not unsual but I repeat that we need more facts to state.
You really have to understand that without more pieces of information we can't state on this. Maybe Stephano has not signed anything with CoL or maybe he has signed something very particular.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI of 12 months, that doesn't exist at all in France because CDI means permanent contract.
This summarizes quite well the juridic problem : we don't know.
And I agree with you, Millenium was unprofessional. But so was Stephano.
In my opinion he should honor the contract with complexity gaming (but of course it is too late  )
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EPT
