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On September 20 2011 06:35 Redox wrote:
In a strange way I like this.
Two teams fighting hard to sign a player, shit is getting real in E-sports! :D
Awesome until players start wiping their ass with contracts they just signed/agreed to. As potential sponsors look from the outside in and decide they just don't want to deal with children. If Stephano or Millenium don't suffer some monetary repercussions from this you'll see less and less multi-national teams.
It makes me wonder what exactly Millenium did to convince Stephano to back out. This is a mess but, there needs to be consequences for this type of crap or everyone will be doing it and it will set back the progress that has been made.
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I think it'd be nice if the people who actually run the tournaments would help to put an end to this bullshit by banning players who pull shit like this. It's bad for professional SC2 and therefore indirectly bad for them.
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On September 20 2011 06:43 najreteip wrote:
Can people just hold off on making their judgments until we actually know the whole story?
We may never know the whole story. Mil's spokeman did a thing where he only answered to people who spoke French. Then, when asked if he cared to post or make a statement of TL he said that he didn't care what the international community thought. So, we are free to make our own wild judgments.
Edit: Well, someone else posted what he said now. But, my point still stands !~
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It's funny that signing a contract and then immediately saying whoops, my bad I actually didn't want to sign it is the worst possible troll you could do, besides saying fuck on GomTV after trying to troll supernova and then having to resort to ignorance to get through it.
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On September 20 2011 06:46 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 20 2011 06:29 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 FlamingTurd wrote:
This is seriously bad. He signed the contract and Millenium is acting like just because he felt like staying that he can disregard that contract. What total BS that whole thing is. no, they're acting like because it wasn't a valid contract he can disregard it. signatures on bits of paper aren't magic. they're private agreements to do commerce, governed by multiple tiers of regulation. in this case, those laws don't allow for such an agreement. How do you know the contract isn't valid? many reasons, but the most obvious one: it wasn't written, coL and mill have said, in French. that's a requirement for employment contracts in France.
It wasn't an employment contract.
It was said already that he was signed as a contractor to render his services unto coL.
Christ it's like you can't read.
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On September 20 2011 06:46 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:34 Sleight wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 Otolia wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Gheed wrote:
You don't know the terms of the contract. Nobody but complexity and milenium do. Don't post ignorant shit like this. For all we know, Complexity contracted Stephano not as a salaried employee, but as a contractor who would attend certain events and carry the Complexity tag. What happens if you have carpal tunnel in-between 2 tournaments ? Are you protected by your employer ? So much gray area. Saying it was a contractor agreement makes coL look bad. No, you SHOW UP because you are LEGALLY BOUND. There isn't much to it. Ever had legal obligations? I have. You do them RAIN OR SHINE, bro. Manner up. I'm sorry, I live in a country where people still have rights. If I am not able to perform what I am supposed to do due to a injury caused by my work, I am still paid by my employer. And all that legally. Upgrade your right dude, you aren't a slave.
Oh really.....
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On September 20 2011 06:46 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:34 Sleight wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 Otolia wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Gheed wrote:
You don't know the terms of the contract. Nobody but complexity and milenium do. Don't post ignorant shit like this. For all we know, Complexity contracted Stephano not as a salaried employee, but as a contractor who would attend certain events and carry the Complexity tag. What happens if you have carpal tunnel in-between 2 tournaments ? Are you protected by your employer ? So much gray area. Saying it was a contractor agreement makes coL look bad. No, you SHOW UP because you are LEGALLY BOUND. There isn't much to it. Ever had legal obligations? I have. You do them RAIN OR SHINE, bro. Manner up. I'm sorry, I live in a country where people still have rights. If I am not able to perform what I am supposed to do due to a injury caused by my work, I am still paid by my employer. And all that legally. Upgrade your right dude, you aren't a slave.
We have workers comp too try again
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On September 20 2011 06:44 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:30 TurpinOS wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 gulbanana wrote:
it's a JOB. you are allowed to quit a job, if you want, because in 2011 most people aren't slaves. in france, you have the right to quit a job without notice within the probation period. even without that he could have just given notice, and been "on complexity" for 2 weeks! how would that have been substantially different? ¸you are not just allowed to quit your job on a heartbeat, thats not how the real world works/ actually, in most first world nations - france included - workers have the right, guaranteed by law, to quit a job. maybe it's not true in the usa. in france, you can quit by giving a period of notice. in the probationary period at the start of an employment contract, this period is 0.
Im sorry i think I quoted the wrong post, I meant you cant just decide one day youre quitting your job and not come in, you need a period of notice (which was in your post but not in the one I meant to quote).
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On September 20 2011 06:43 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:30 Candide wrote:On September 20 2011 06:25 gulbanana wrote:
it's a JOB. you are allowed to quit a job, if you want, because in 2011 most people aren't slaves. in france, you have the right to quit a job without notice within the probation period. even without that he could have just given notice, and been "on complexity" for 2 weeks! how would that have been substantially different? Lets establish something with your quote okay. A job is something YOU do to support YOURself. correct? correct. Keeping this in mind... lets touch economics, if you are in high demand with no supply you set the market. if you are in a market with low demand and high supply employers set the market cost. This is Starcraft 2. There is a high demand of "good" player but low supply. So naturally the players are in a position to negotiate yes? Keeping this in mind how does one make sure they do not waste time/resources to gain a player? they form a contract. YOU CAN'T BREAK A CONTRACT WILLY NILLY. coL is looking at legal action to create a precedence for what you could do and cannot do. They have legal counsel and are not afraid to use it. You can quit a job if there are plenty of you to replace, but if there is only one of you then it is a completely different matter. stephano isn't breaking a contract; no valid work contract was signed; being an athlete - or a progamer - is not different, legally, from any other sort of job.
Correct... and you can't quit from jobs. like we said. like you said was barbaric. Trolololol. Sorry BRO, them is the rules as we here hicks say. Or should I say it in my four other spoken languages because everyone knows we Americans are so ignorant of the world!!!!!!
Lawlz.
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Life's balance is as a star: on one point it is Law, and Law must be upheld. If the knots of order are loosened, chaos will spill through.
First time I genuinely root for Complexity, although they might have been shafted here, according to information hinted at in posts like this.
I didn't react with joy to their announcement of their acquisition of Stephano, but if what they say is true - and it sounds plausible enough - then Millenium & Stephano should take a huge hit to their image regardless of how this turns out. Unfortunately a number of devoted fans won't be bothered by this, and coL's options might be limited due to this being an international deal.
But without order, without solid groundwork, without a structure, you can build nothing, not even professional eSports.
As unbelievable as it sounds, I hope they can follow through with legal action & force Stephano to play for their team, just as any professional player in any sport would do after signing a contract, or prevent him from playing for the duration of the contract, but there is no overarching organization/commitee supervising the observance of rules in SC2.
Things like this make it very hard to move eSports forward.
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On September 20 2011 06:15 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:13 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:09 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 06:04 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:01 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place I'm under the assumption that coL who has been around since 2003 is perfectly capable of designing contracts that holds true legally in the US. Don't take me for a fool please, and don't take coL for fools either because they actually have a legitimate lawyer working for them. What you are not understanding Faress, is that just because Millenium points fingers saying the contract is not valid, doesn't really say jack shit as long as it's valid in the US. They clearly stated that the contract is missing things like the trial period (even if the trial period is 0 days) which is mandatory in EUROPE (CEE document 1991), but that's true that millenium could be lying about that but I doubt it Again what relevance does this have to whether or not the contract is legally binding in the US? Just like Jason says in his announcement, French and hell, even EU Law, might give stephano and Millenium right, IN FRANCE. But does the same apply to the US? You're simplifying things. Even if the contract is legally binding in the US (which it probably is) there's still a fuckton of things to work your way through (unless there's guidlines worked out between france - US) to make this work, but you are focusing on the wrong things. France Law doesn't have to give coL right in this in order for them to succeed. Agreed, people should read a comment made by complexity below their statement. Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet. In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/ Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
After speaking with 2 lawyer friends (french): lol -> if you have a fee dozen grant to waste...even by going all the through obtaining a compensation representing a small proportion of the legal costs... come on, be serious.
Obliviously Stephano did not communicate well with his team, making them understand what others were offering him (to give M a chance to match) or make them understand and believe that he would leave if he does not get a matching offer. Thats why negotiation should optimally be done by people who actually have the intellectual business background to make an educated decision (which rarely is the athlete / player / the guy investing all his time to master one activity to entertain people). In most arts and sports people get proper business representation (agents / managers / lawyers) for that very reason.
In my opinion there were a lot of factors Stephano obviously did not consider when signing this contract. For one the enormous promotional asset Millenium is for his exposure and the leverage by being in a team of his nationality (which in promotion is always a huge factor when talking about name recognition, player promotional value and fan base development). He might have just compared the base salaries that both structure were offering and forgetting that not all the viewers connecting on his stream (generating add revenue for him / lasting name recognition) come from TL but that with 20k FB fans and one of the most visited e-sport sites in the world, Millenium is actually helping Stephano to build a growing fan base in and out of France (and say what you want, being the best French player, in the best French esport team that happens to also be in the top 8 foreign world teams should make up for those few hundreds a month (i'm totally guessing here) that made Stephano think for a brief moment that Col would be his best choice. Anyone who knows the apoprox. exposure figures of both communities and has any knowledge about sport promoting could recognize that: Stephano didn't. And frankly thats not his job.
I can only guess thats what M means when they are talking about "disorienting means to influence".
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On September 20 2011 06:43 Piotr wrote:
Hi guys, french guy is talking here, so sorry for my poor english. I studied some labor law here in france in my graduate school.
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. (Convention of Rome)
The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French court but this one will take the foreign basis to decide. (still convention of rome)
That's why people who say that it's not a legal contract in france are totally wrong. On top of that, labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do :p ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. A particulary clause in the contract is not required for that. It is obvious that it the case here.
An other thing that is said is that if Stephano has not signed any thing with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. We have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). This is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a préjudice for col (economic, moral...). It is not unsual but I repeat that we need more facts to state.
You really have to understand that without more pieces of information we can't state on this. Maybe Stephano has not signed anything with CoL or maybe he has signed something very particular.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI of 12 months, that doesn't exist at all in France because CDI means permanent contract.
Holy shit guys it's a real french person!
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On September 20 2011 06:45 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:44 TurpinOS wrote:[/B
Because thats one of the facts that we actually have coming from both parties.
Stop spreading this non-sense and baseless arguments. Yep Show nested quote +[B]On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
(...)
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
(...)
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events. Pew pew~!
Quoting for spreading. It's hard to see the most understandable post under the 36th biggest shitstorm of our time. I am really interested into knowing what said loopholes are.
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On September 20 2011 06:19 gulbanana wrote:
it's a shitty thing to do to persuade a guy into signing a contract at 3 am and then immediately announce it online.. and it's completely bizarre to, on discovering that your 'contract' doesn't respect french employment law and he wants out, make legal threats.
do americans think contracts are magic? the way some of you talk about "legally binding" and a "word of honour" sounds quasi-religious. under EU law, complexity's offer is considered an offer of employment; it doesn't adhere to the standards for such a thing. it's as simple as that. stephano made a mistake while tired, woke up and paniced, then realised he wasn't legally committed. dumb of him, but it's not a major issue.
hardly anyone seems to realise that someone might be good at starcraft yet not WANT to fly all around the world and pursue a career in it. he's got a medical education ongoing and a fun hobby which makes him some money. if complexity can't pressure him into accepting a position on their team, then they should suck it up and not make themselves sound like legal idiots.
i can't wait to accidentally run someone over in my car, but hey i was tired okay? why should i have to be responsible for my actions WHEN I WAS TIRED?!
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France266 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:46 gulbanana wrote:
many reasons, but the most obvious one: it wasn't written, coL and mill have said, in French. that's a requirement for employment contracts in France.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE, as said previously in this topic. An employment contract in France could even be implied and not expressed, and oral agreement are accepted in court.
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WHY ARE SO MANY PEOPLE TALKING LAW OUT OF THEIR ASSES?
If you don't work in the law industry or aren't studying law, then you should shut-up about what is legal and what is illegal. Comment on the ethical side, or state your opinion on the player, but DO NOT say it's illegal what he did. You don't know the french law system(nor do I for that matter), so you cannot comment on if his actually doing something illegal.
TL;DR online lawyers are losers.
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On September 20 2011 06:43 Piotr wrote:
Hi guys, french guy is talking here, so sorry for my poor english. I studied some labor law here in france in my graduate school.
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. (Convention of Rome)
The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French court but this one will take the foreign basis to decide. (still convention of rome)
That's why people who say that it's not a legal contract in france are totally wrong. On top of that, labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do :p ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. A particulary clause in the contract is not required for that. It is obvious that it the case here.
An other thing that is said is that if Stephano has not signed any thing with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. We have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). This is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a préjudice for col (economic, moral...). It is not unsual but I repeat that we need more facts to state.
You really have to understand that without more pieces of information we can't state on this. Maybe Stephano has not signed anything with CoL or maybe he has signed something very particular.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI of 12 months, that doesn't exist at all in France because CDI means permanent contract.
Excellent first post. Thank you for providing an intelligent insight into this topic and additionally providing sources for your claims.
My hat is off to you sir.
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On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
- Lewellys stated that he didn't know about coL's intentions before the announcement of the transfer on TL Forum. However, he also said that he doesn't know if other people in Millenium's staff were in contact with coL or not.
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
- Contrary to Cedrix's (Millenium boss) statement in the OP, there were no "disorienting actions" from coL. The so-called disorienting actions was that they signed the contract during the night (iin European time zone), and that Stephano is only 18.
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
He said that he will not reply tonight, but that eventually someone from Millenium will reply.
He also said that Stephano will go to international tournaments. He will go to IPL 3, and there are chances that he will go to MLG Orlando. He also said that it was OK for Stephano to stay one month or two in Korea (ToD wanted to stay at least six months, hence the disagreement).
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On September 20 2011 06:48 keioh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:45 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:44 TurpinOS wrote:[/B
Because thats one of the facts that we actually have coming from both parties.
Stop spreading this non-sense and baseless arguments. Yep [B]On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
(...)
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
(...)
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events. Pew pew~! Quoting for spreading. It's hard to see the most understandable post under the 36th biggest shitstorm of our time. I am really interested into knowing what said loopholes are.
maybe if you actually clicked on the quotes you'll see what I'm talking about.
Also thanks for contributing to the conversation yourself!
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On September 20 2011 06:26 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:19 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts... There are a lot of people like this guy I quoted whose first posts are in this thread and they're repeating this same nonsense which the OP already disproves. Shills for Millenium?
There's a difference between what Col wrote and what Mill said. You use Col's version and i used Mill's version. Neither you nor I was here so I don't think we can have a proper answer. Maybe Stephano's statement could enlighten us.
And when i used the word "making", i didn't mean forcing or anything but come on, 1)He's 18 2)3a.m 3)He changes his mind the day after?
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EPT
