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On September 20 2011 06:43 hifriend wrote:
17 year old indecisive kid changed his mind right after signing a contract.. it happens.
Anyway I hope whatever happens stephano ends up on a team he's happy with whether it be millenium, complexity or some other team.
I have to admit I think it's sad that organisations like teamliquid and millenium that invested a lot of money, time and effort into building up great players from scratch are inevitably going to be screwed vs bigger organisations like EG and coL.
A few organisations with big budgets pushing player salaries beyond what was realistically sustainable is exactly what killed wc3 esports.
He is 18 years old.
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Can people just hold off on making their judgments until we actually know the whole story?
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On September 20 2011 06:42 Kaedeleus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:38 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further No. You have no idea of the actual wording, and I guarantee you that if he signed his name, regardless of whatever the fuck was written down he will be held accountable for something. You mean U.S. law, but French law allows to break a contract within a period of several days (I do not know the exact number).
So good you agree with me then that he is still liable for US law. Finally you see the light.
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On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further
Whether it is legally binding or not, it is still a case of Millenium talking directly to a player who has agreed to join another team and have signed what is expected to be a legally binding contract with them, and then signing that player without talking to Complexity at all. Legally binding or not Millenium has been exposed as unprofessional, incompetent, and truly just a nationalistic French organization who has no interest in helping players succeed outside of random French lans that no one (to my knowledge) outside of France care about.
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France266 Posts
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
- Lewellys stated that he didn't know about coL's intentions before the announcement of the transfer on TL Forum. However, he also said that he doesn't know if other people in Millenium's staff were in contact with coL or not.
- He doesn't plan on answering to coL's mails. He also said that he is confident that Millenium is covered by French law on that matters.
- Contrary to Cedrix's (Millenium boss) statement in the OP, there were no "disorienting actions" from coL. The so-called disorienting actions was that they signed the contract during the night (in European time zone), and that Stephano is only 18.
- Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events.
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The fact that this whole thing wreaks of nationalism bothers me. The amount of people who see this as some calling for French nationalism bothers me in this day and age.
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On September 20 2011 06:24 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:19 Thurken wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts... All of that is irrelevant, a signed contract is still a signed contract. Do you honestly think "Uhhh, i was tired when i signed the contract, so i'll just break it now" would hold up in court?
In french court, if the contrat is younger than 30 day, "i dont give a shit of this court" will cost you much, because the president of the court will be offended  , but a reason like "The answer is 42", or "you should be daaaaannnncinng, yeaaaaaah !!!!" is perferctly ok, because i (and boss aswell) can break contract for any reason during this time.
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On September 20 2011 06:41 euroboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:41 TurpinOS wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from? stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it. Stop posting, you know nothing of Law at all, yet you keep pumping these presumptions left and right. If he signed a piece of paper, he signed a contract, and until a court of law judges that it is legal or not you can't infer anything specific (especially since you havent seen said piece of paper) And yes, a French individual can be binded under Texas law. How do you know he signed a paper?
[QUOTE]On September 20 2011 06:44 Koorb wrote:
Just to summarize what Lewellys, Millenium's manager, said tonight (Europe timezone) on stream:
- There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it doesn't comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did.
Because thats one of the facts that we actually have coming from both parties.
Stop spreading this non-sense and baseless arguments.
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On September 20 2011 06:39 euroboy wrote:
Even if he is 18. He said to them on skype YESTERDAY he will join, and they announce it today? Did they fax a contract or what?
There are lots of services that allow for the remote signing and verification of contracts. The notion that just because he is in France they couldnt have a real contract is just not true.
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On September 20 2011 06:35 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:28 Myles wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? I live in the 21st century where contracts (should) mean something. So no, I don't think if you sign a contract saying you'll be with a company for x days/months/years/whatever, that you can quit said contract whenever you want. Not with out consequences at least. barbaric. anybody should be able to quit their job, with a given notice period. as is the case in basically every country in the world. i hear some u.s. states don't actually allow that, which is insane - you can really sign your life away for X months or years without a chance to go back on it? surely not. I can only speak for norwegian law, but even here you can't sign a contract to work somewhere and then the next day not show, you have to keep working for 2 months. Sure you can quit, but those 2 months the company you signed with own your ass. (with pay of course.) Seems silly to me that employees can just make a 180° and suddenly back out of what they agreed to. No honor at all.
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On September 20 2011 06:35 Teael wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:34 Tamotab wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Skeet11 wrote:
Man, I don't know who to call the bigger dick. Millenium for persuing Stephano after signing a contract with compLexity, or Stephano for actually turning his back from compLexity after signing the deal with them. And no statements from Mill or Stephano? Wtf. A lot of people asked him to post an official statement on TL, but basically he said he doesn't care what the international community thinks and that a few days from now all this drama will be forgotten/yesterday news. Wishful thinking The internet does not forget
Who still talk about Puma and Eg ?
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On September 20 2011 06:30 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:25 gulbanana wrote:
it's a JOB. you are allowed to quit a job, if you want, because in 2011 most people aren't slaves. in france, you have the right to quit a job without notice within the probation period. even without that he could have just given notice, and been "on complexity" for 2 weeks! how would that have been substantially different? ¸you are not just allowed to quit your job on a heartbeat, thats not how the real world works/
actually, in most first world nations - france included - workers have the right, guaranteed by law, to quit a job. maybe it's not true in the usa. in france, you can quit by giving a period of notice. in the probationary period at the start of an employment contract, this period is 0.
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On September 20 2011 06:40 Moosy wrote:
this is a rather complex scenario, pun intended.
see what you did there.
On topic, I cannot understand Mill position, especially Lewellys THAT IS if the fact that he just spent 1 hours answering question on Millenium.tv is true, to not explain their side of the story. And this makes me feel again that French scene in eSport is far from understanding the concept of profesionalism.
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On September 20 2011 06:42 Tamotab wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:39 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
..... I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business. You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal.. this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment. Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further OMG ITS NOT VALID CAUSE ITS NOT IN FRENCH DURRRRRP maybe someone just learn english or learn to use google translate. I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how all americans seems to think that american legislation should apply to the rest of the world...
And it's funny how all the French seem to think that only the French laws should apply to international deals...
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On September 20 2011 06:41 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:41 euroboy wrote:On September 20 2011 06:41 TurpinOS wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from? stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it. Stop posting, you know nothing of Law at all, yet you keep pumping these presumptions left and right. If he signed a piece of paper, he signed a contract, and until a court of law judges that it is legal or not you can't infer anything specific (especially since you havent seen said piece of paper) And yes, a French individual can be binded under Texas law. How do you know he signed a paper? How do you know he didn't?
Because, as I've said before in this thread. In Col's statement it clearly says he agreed to join YESTERDAY on skype, and they announce it today. Thats a quick mailman if they didn't fax, but they never mention anything about it, just the skype call. So it's confusing...
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Complexity is a great team I'm baffled D=
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I think it would be pretty ridiculous if the French courts allowed Stephano a free exit based on French nationalism. It would put out a bad image for France as well as for Stephano as a player. It would also be a disgrace to the growing esports movement. Stephano made a decision and put it down in paper. This is when the decision is made, not afterwards. The very idea of a contract is to create permanent commitment. It's silly to me that some people don't think the same.
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The French law to allow a break contract Within a Period of SEVERAL days (I do not know the exact number). Stephano just did that. There was not whether the contract is legal or not.
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On September 20 2011 06:37 Apollo_Shards wrote:
Millenniums post seems to me like
"arg arg French Nationalsim trumps contracts!"
True that.. except French Nationalism is of a quite comfortable style. as long as Ger.. ah well, the rest is history.
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On September 20 2011 06:42 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:30 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 Carapas wrote:On September 20 2011 06:27 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 sixfour wrote:On September 20 2011 06:24 ZestyPickle wrote:
Yeah but depending on how the legal action progresses, Stephano may never set foot in the US unless he wants to answer to US law
this is a contract dispute, he's not killed anybody $$$$$ This is no a criminal case, this is civil, thus he can certainly come to NA anytime... Im not arguing he cant come, Im saying he will have just have to answer to what ever us courts find, and if it thousands of dollars worth of damages he may not want to come if you think even american courts are going to find for damages against someone who refused within hours to honour an incorrectly executed foreign employment contract, and was paid nothing, you're delusional.
You're delusional as to how US contracts work. Please stop acting like they have to be novels to have weight. A handshake deal can be just as binding as a signed one here.
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EPT
