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Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103) Update: Please read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267506#1 and continue the discussion there. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:39 Gowa wrote: Complexity' ways of business are quite disturbing, harassing a player who just went full time starcraft and trying to trap him with a "legal/ contract That's what a contract is dude. You shouldn't sign if you had questions or hesitations. Have you ever had a job? | ||
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Tehs Tehklz
United States330 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:36 gulbanana wrote: actually, "non-compete" clauses are illegal in most first-world nations, and even in some major american states. Uh, if by "illegal" you mean "totally legal" then you'd be correct. Have you ever heard of Conan O'brien? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause | ||
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RoyGBiv_13
United States1275 Posts
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Tamotab
France38 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:39 zhurai wrote: OMG ITS NOT VALID CAUSE ITS NOT IN FRENCH DURRRRRP maybe someone just learn english or learn to use google translate. I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how all americans seems to think that american legislation should apply to the rest of the world... | ||
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Kaedeleus
France20 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:38 ZestyPickle wrote: No. You have no idea of the actual wording, and I guarantee you that if he signed his name, regardless of whatever the fuck was written down he will be held accountable for something. You mean U.S. law, but French law allows to break a contract within a period of several days (I do not know the exact number). | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
Because Complexity said he signed a paper, and Millenium seems to have confirmed that he signed a paper. | ||
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gulbanana
Australia56 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:30 ZestyPickle wrote: Im not arguing he cant come, Im saying he will have just have to answer to what ever us courts find, and if it thousands of dollars worth of damages he may not want to come if you think even american courts are going to find for damages against someone who refused within hours to honour an incorrectly executed foreign employment contract, and was paid nothing, you're delusional. | ||
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Callosum
United States56 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:41 Oreo7 wrote: Trying to trap him? Wtf? They want him to sign with a team, and in the real world we don't just give people thousands of dollars because they give us their word. hey, we're on the internet, not in the real world! you keep that common sense out of here! | ||
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Emporio
United States3069 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:40 zhurai wrote: I had a feeling about that too.... -_____-' Actually my thought is that it's some American guy making up French accounts and trying to make France look bad. There's no way anyone could think that this would cause good PR for themselves. | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:35 gulbanana wrote: barbaric. anybody should be able to quit their job, with a given notice period. as is the case in basically every country in the world. i hear some u.s. states don't actually allow that, which is insane - you can really sign your life away for X months or years without a chance to go back on it? surely not. If you sign a contract, yes it is. There many be different regulations depending on the country, but in any developed part of the world, if you sign a contract you agree to the terms in that contract. If those terms are you work for x time, then that's what you do. If you don't, there are consequences written into the contract outlining what penalties will occur if the contract is broken. If you don't want to have to work for x time then don't sign the contract. This is the real world here, not fantasy land. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:41 gulbanana wrote: first, thanks for engaging my point. most people don't seem to be applying any sort of reason to this issue. however: the issue of international employment law is not actually complicated. i've been subject to it before, and the simple answer is this: when you employ someone in a country, you do so under the employment laws OF that country. the USA has probably the least protections for workers of any first-world nation, and it's considered normal there to sign a contract which says, basically, anything - it varies from state to state of course. in other places, there are generally certain conditions which have to be respected to hire someone - and whether your contract is hiring someone is ALSO defined in law. in this case, coL's 'contract' was definitely a attempt to employ someone under french law, and definitely not a valid one. french law is also definitely what applies. stephano made a rushed decision late at night, woke up regretting it, took it to his team to see if he could get out of it - and found out that he could. it's good that he was able to, because one of the protections that nations should provide to their citizens is a basic restriction on how much their lives can be up-ended by hasty or accidental decisionmaking. It was not an employment contract. He was signed as a contractor to give his services to coL. The jurisdiction of the contract was in Texas, USA. More nonsense from you, please, it's delicious. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
Anyway I hope whatever happens stephano ends up on a team he's happy with whether it be millenium, complexity or some other team. I have to admit I think it's sad that organisations like teamliquid and millenium that invested a lot of money, time and effort into building up great players from scratch are inevitably going to be screwed vs bigger organisations like EG and coL. A few organisations with big budgets pushing player salaries beyond what was realistically sustainable is exactly what killed wc3 esports. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
Even if Stepano signed a real contract unless there is an indemnification clause in the contract how is Complexity going to prove any damages? And without proving any actual damage what is complexity going to sue for? I would love to see complexity actually try to waste a court's time with a lawsuit for an employment contract based on a video game. Especially in Texas. But lets say the miracle of miracles happens, and complexity's contract does have an indemnification clause and some American court says that yes, (a) the contract signed is valid (b) legally binding (c) and damages have been found. What are they going to do next? Stepano is a french guy, playing starcraft in france. At most the American court could garnish any of Stepano's winnings from tournament's in America. | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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gulbanana
Australia56 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:30 Candide wrote: stephano isn't breaking a contract; no valid work contract was signed; being an athlete - or a progamer - is not different, legally, from any other sort of job. Lets establish something with your quote okay. A job is something YOU do to support YOURself. correct? correct. Keeping this in mind... lets touch economics, if you are in high demand with no supply you set the market. if you are in a market with low demand and high supply employers set the market cost. This is Starcraft 2. There is a high demand of "good" player but low supply. So naturally the players are in a position to negotiate yes? Keeping this in mind how does one make sure they do not waste time/resources to gain a player? they form a contract. YOU CAN'T BREAK A CONTRACT WILLY NILLY. coL is looking at legal action to create a precedence for what you could do and cannot do. They have legal counsel and are not afraid to use it. You can quit a job if there are plenty of you to replace, but if there is only one of you then it is a completely different matter. | ||
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Piotr
26 Posts
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. (Convention of Rome) The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French court but this one will take the foreign basis to decide. (still convention of rome) That's why people who say that it's not a legal contract in france are totally wrong. On top of that, labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. Edit : The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because france's labour law is not law, the basis are used. Obviously if the foreign country breaks an other convention (human rights, whatever...), it's not. In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do :p ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. A particulary clause in the contract is not required for that. It is obvious that it the case here. An other thing that is said is that if Stephano has not signed any thing with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. We have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). This is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a préjudice for col (economic, moral...). It is not unsual but I repeat that we need more facts to state. You really have to understand that without more pieces of information we can't state on this. Maybe Stephano has not signed anything with CoL or maybe he has signed something very particular. My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI of 12 months, that doesn't exist at all in France because CDI means permanent contract. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:42 Tamotab wrote: I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how all americans seems to think that american legislation should apply to the rest of the world... But France should ignore the international laws. Anyways, most of us are purely speculating. We should stop talking until we have some more information to chew. | ||
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havox_
Germany442 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:39 Gowa wrote: Complexity' ways of business are quite disturbing, harassing a player who just went full time starcraft and trying to trap him with a "legal/ contract Damn, so this was a really bad week for Stephano. First he got trapped by coL... and then Mill gets him to sign another contract... sickest trap ever :/ | ||
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Gowa
France133 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:40 Teael wrote: Yeah, because most full-time jobs don't require you to sign a contract... Oh, wait. He decided to play starcraft for a living only one or two month ago and from what we've seen they didn't really care to look into french laws and make a proper contract He's only 18, no wonder why he wants to stay with his team. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:42 Tamotab wrote: I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how all americans seems to think that american legislation should apply to the rest of the world... I don't know who is right or wrong in this but it's funny how these french seems to think that because it's not in french it's automatically not valid. | ||
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