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On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 23:50 Jinivus wrote:On September 19 2011 23:47 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:11 manloveman wrote:On September 19 2011 23:05 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:03 perestain wrote:On September 19 2011 22:53 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:
And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Eh, no idea where you got the "way more systematic approach" in SC2. -_- The exact opposite is the case, actually. Brood War has much better structured teams, dedicated coaches and in-house practice partners whose job is basically to test builds. Also, "metagame messiahs" are actually a common phenomenon in RTS games. Most of the times where a game took a big evolutionary step, it's been ONE GUY who figured something out and found a way to include it in the game. Even if you're right, it doesnt make a difference, you have to actually make sure you have an even battlefield, not assume someone will eventually come and make it even, otherwise results are not worth much. If you constantly keep artificially "evening out" the battlefield every time the results aren't balanced, then it's quite literally not a sport or even a competition (or even a game). Besides, it's not like you're not dealing in guesses and assumptions - you're ASSUMING that there is no solution to a problem. And you're assuming that after like what, 2 or 3 months of that problem's appearance? (2-3 months = nothing in an competitive RTS's lifetime) Well numbers suggest Terran being on top for what, a year now. Its just a degree of how much on top they are. Protoss and Zerg taking turns on being buttom and middle. Its really not 2-3 month period at all Do you watch numbers, or do you watch Starcraft? I watch Starcraft, and based on the games and players' display of skill that I see and given the current level of competition I EXPECT mvp, Bomber, MMA and Nada to be in the top constantly (even though that isn't the case), as they are genuine top level players and they show it through their mechanics and generally having extremely strong RTS fundamentals. I expect the same of NesTea and to a lesser extent LosirA and DRG (even though the latter two also haven't had too much success at all). If these players were to win the next 10 starleagues among the current competition, I still wouldn't see a problem with the game at all. So it's just a coincidence none of the top players picked protoss, and MC who was once regarded as the best in the world, now can't even beat a 35 percent winrate zerg a few months later. I totally buy it! I'm not selling anything. I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well. I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else"... no. -_- While it may seem weird to you that one race/faction in a game doesn't have a genuine top player for a period of time, if you've been following RTS games for a little longer than just SC2, you'll know that it isn't unheard of at all.
Haha what bullshit. Clearly MC did understand the game because apparently his timing attack style was the only thing capable of winning. Now that's gone and protoss is nothing. It's extremely unlikely that if the races are equal there wouldn't be a bomber equivalent or close to for protoss, or at least another MC. Either something about protoss is limiting or hinders progress or it's just plain not good enough.
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I wouldn't balance the future of the game around MCs approach to the game, he won with massive gateway timing attacks and cheeses... hes not winning now because players have him figured out. Puzzle is a beast though along with Sage.
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On September 20 2011 00:10 zerker2strong wrote:
Nobody mentioning mouzmana he is doing rly good
It's hard to do well in GSL when you aren't going to Korea soon  .
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On September 20 2011 00:11 Ashes wrote:
We still got..HuK.. come on guys... protoss will bounce back... trust me..send MC to mlg NOW!! get him his Code A. MC = December Code S champ.. you heard it here!
Except he can't get code A through MLG.
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On September 20 2011 00:23 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 00:11 Ashes wrote:
We still got..HuK.. come on guys... protoss will bounce back... trust me..send MC to mlg NOW!! get him his Code A. MC = December Code S champ.. you heard it here! Except he can't get code A through MLG.
I thought he could, if he wins, because he is not coded anymore (A or S)
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On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote:
I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
While it may seem weird to you that one race/faction in a game doesn't have a genuine top player for a period of time, if you've been following RTS games for a little longer than just SC2, you'll know that it isn't unheard of at all.
It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
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nice writeup but every toss that has to play against a terran, you should expect them to be eliminated
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Time is ripe for a protoss to step up and become the champion of aiur. That or they're all utterly destroyed and we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle with SC2.
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There are no heroes left in man Protoss.
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Well, I must say, MC did become a tad less consistent in his play recently, but him falling to Code B is too much. I think when a 2 time GSL champion (quite recent too!) falls to Code B it's not just him being a worse player than before. He lost to a random nameless Zerg of whom I have not heard of until now. I hate GSL's system! Today is a very dark day.
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On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote:
I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other T/Z players have. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw. Right now he's doing worse than many Protoss as well.
MC's mentality was very short-term benefit oriented. And he did have short term benefit, and now he's going to have to improve drastically and figure out a solid way to play.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
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If one of those "heroes" wins one of the next two gsl i'll eat a rat.
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On September 20 2011 00:35 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote:
I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best. Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw. Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL. That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled. Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it. There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
Tons of cases where all previous results in the matchup lead you to believe the toss is more skilled and he just gets owned. Examples : ( Puzzle vs ryung, MC vs monster, MC vs noblesse etc.) It is the end of the world. The entertainment value of GSL is dead for me. The game is 2 races, and simply by being a protoss you are almost automatically unfavored in the match. And when did another protoss player win 2 GSLs? I must have missed where they did that and did better than MC did. Sickens me how fast people are throwing MC under the bus even though he is the only protoss to ever accomplish anything in Korea. And we can do something, encourage blizzard to actually balance the freakin game.
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None of those guys are anywhere near winning Code S. I doubt they will even make it out of Code A.
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On September 20 2011 00:40 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 00:35 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote:
I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best. Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw. On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL. That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled. On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it. There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up. Tons of cases where all previous results in the matchup lead you to believe the toss is more skilled and he just gets owned. Examples : ( Puzzle vs ryung, MC vs monster, MC vs noblesse etc.) It is the end of the world. The entertainment value of GSL is dead for me. The game is 2 races, and simply by being a protoss you are almost automatically unfavored in the match. And when did another protoss player win 2 GSLs? I must have missed where they did that and did better than MC did.
Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung? Give me a break. They're even at best. MC vs Noblesse isn't much of a skill discrepancy right now either. In fact all of MC's examples you base his skill on his past accomplishments rather than present ability.
I'm sorry, but wanting the game to change so that GSL can entertain you more just doesn't sound like a very convincing reason for me. It's a competition, not a show.
Also, you can't encourage Blizzard to do absolutely anything. They do things when they want and how they want. Just because some changes (not nearly all of them) coincide with what the masses wanted in the past doesn't mean that all the whining has any influence on their decisions.
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Wow show some respect. The only player you listed that is even close to being on par with MC is LiquidHero and hes a PvZ specialist. Any Protoss player that got MC's opponents would be in Code B right now. MC isn't playing godly because hes in a slump and MC is in a slump because blizzard Patched Protoss out of the GSL
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On September 20 2011 00:43 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 00:40 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 00:35 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote:
I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best. Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw. On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL. That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled. On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it. There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up. Tons of cases where all previous results in the matchup lead you to believe the toss is more skilled and he just gets owned. Examples : ( Puzzle vs ryung, MC vs monster, MC vs noblesse etc.) It is the end of the world. The entertainment value of GSL is dead for me. The game is 2 races, and simply by being a protoss you are almost automatically unfavored in the match. And when did another protoss player win 2 GSLs? I must have missed where they did that and did better than MC did. Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung? Give me a break. They're even at best. MC vs Noblesse isn't much of a skill discrepancy right now either. In fact all of MC's examples you base his skill on his past accomplishments rather than present ability.
At TvP yes Puzzle is much better than Ryung. And if the matchup is indeed imbalanced how do you expect MC to look better than his opponent rofl...simply baffling. You are the type of guy that will simply never admit imbalance no matter what. Even if there are 0 toss in Code S. It is not natural that not even one protoss player is competitive at the top level in such a large scene.
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On September 20 2011 00:44 VTPerfect wrote:
Wow show some respect. The only player you listed that is even close to being on par with MC is LiquidHero and hes a PvZ specialist. Any Protoss player that got MC's opponents would be in Code B right now. MC isn't playing godly because hes in a slump and MC is in a slump because blizzard Patched Protoss out of the GSL
Thank you.
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In these dark times for the protoss. Adun Toridas!!!!!!!
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On September 20 2011 00:43 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 00:40 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 00:35 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote:
I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best. Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw. On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL. That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled. On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote:
The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it. There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up. Tons of cases where all previous results in the matchup lead you to believe the toss is more skilled and he just gets owned. Examples : ( Puzzle vs ryung, MC vs monster, MC vs noblesse etc.) It is the end of the world. The entertainment value of GSL is dead for me. The game is 2 races, and simply by being a protoss you are almost automatically unfavored in the match. And when did another protoss player win 2 GSLs? I must have missed where they did that and did better than MC did. Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung? Give me a break. They're even at best. MC vs Noblesse isn't much of a skill discrepancy right now either. In fact all of MC's examples you base his skill on his past accomplishments rather than present ability. I'm sorry, but wanting the game to change so that GSL can entertain you more just doesn't sound like a very convincing reason for me. It's a competition, not a show. Also, you can't encourage Blizzard to do absolutely anything. They do things when they want and how they want. Just because some changes (not nearly all of them) coincide with what the masses wanted in the past doesn't mean that all the whining has any influence on their decisions.
Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung, simply because look at how far Ryung is from the top of his race, whilst Puzzle is easily top 5 and i'm heavily stretching it. I find it really hard to believe all the experienced players decided to randomly pick zerg or terran. I don't even get how you can even argue that?
Maybe protoss getting knocked out left and right has something to do with the consistent whine-related nerfs it has suffered because our win rates took a nose dive right after the buffs zerg/terran got.
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EPT
