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On September 19 2011 23:03 perestain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 22:53 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:
And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Eh, no idea where you got the "way more systematic approach" in SC2. -_- The exact opposite is the case, actually. Brood War has much better structured teams, dedicated coaches and in-house practice partners whose job is basically to test builds. Also, "metagame messiahs" are actually a common phenomenon in RTS games. Most of the times where a game took a big evolutionary step, it's been ONE GUY who figured something out and found a way to include it in the game. Even if you're right, it doesnt make a difference, you have to actually make sure you have an even battlefield, not assume someone will eventually come and make it even, otherwise results are not worth much. It is like trying to sell a machine which is based upon physics which needs to be invented somewhere in the future. Who are you expecting to believe that it will work? I see that people are treating starcraft like a religion, but i didnt think they would do it literally.
Nobody is treating the ga,e like a religion. We just know how BW evolved, but whatever man, its clear your mind is set so no point in discussing
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On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 22:21 karpo wrote:On September 19 2011 22:15 perestain wrote:
Reality is that protoss does not play a role in the outcome of tournaments anymore. There is no point in playing protoss if you actually want to win something, since even players who are considered the absolute best in the world are not competitive anymore when they play protoss.
At this point, cultivating a romantic idea about someone eventually figuring out some magic playstyle that will change the metagame is basically just taking a big, warm and steaming shit on the principles of fair competition IMO.
Protoss needs either to be repaired or to be completely disallowed in official competition, as its really unfair for the athletes. In order to maximize their personal performance they need to ignore all balance issues and just continue practicing, which results in them getting fucked over pretty hard right now.
Such a defeatist attitude. It might be a metagame thing or it might be imbalance but please stop being so damn negative and whiny. And the reason people are cultivating a romantic idea that someone will figure out a "magic playstyle" is because this is exactly what happened in BW. Please point out where I am whiny. In order for SC2 to ever be regarded as a fair sports competition, you have to make sure you get a somewhat even battlefield. Otherwise it is all just a farce. Ever asked yourself why noone is taking prefessional wrestling serious? People there also prefer romantic legends over fair competition... And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Players should be protected from investing heavily into something which is systematically not archievable, since they themselves are not in the position to worry about these things without having their performance affected. Its not about dropping a league or something, for these people there are lives and careeres on the line. If esports is to become serious, people need to take it serious and act responsibly.
You shouldn't comment about BW if you don't know very much about the game or its competitive scene. It just makes your overall point look equally thoughtless.
Not trying to be an ass, but the reason I'm assuming you don't follow BW is because if you did, you would know how ridiculous it is to say that SC2 is more figured out than BW.
Also, no one takes professional wrestling seriously because it is staged.
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On September 19 2011 19:04 althaz wrote:
Hero is our hope in PvZ (which I think is close to balanced and just suffering from meta-game problems atm, Bliz doesn't need to nerf infestors, IMO), because he is the BEST in that matchup in the world, bar none. In fact to me he seems like the most talented player running around in SC2, but he needs to work harder on his forward planning to get there. So frickin' good tho.
However, I feel like Huk is maybe the best at PvT (mostly due to his ridiculous control when defending), it's just that the matchup is kinda hard right now (many Toss can't win it at all). Huk also has excellent PvZ and very solid PvP (insofar as anybody does). He's also still in Code S and doing pretty well in general. I understand he's not a new player but he is getting better and better as I think at this stage that not only is he the most likely foreign player to take a Code S win but he's also the most likely Protoss to take out the tournament as well. However I don't think a Protoss will win anything major until Factory pushes can be dealt with after expanding (whilst still being safe to Bio pressure) and they get a buff or 2 (or Terran get a nerf ofc).
Hero is the most talented player running around in sc2? What are you smoking!
Never made code s. 2-0'd by thorzain yesterday, overhyped due to joining liquid.
MVP, Nestea, bomber, polt, DRG, MC (till lately) yes, Hero.... No.
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Sure, protoss hasn't been doing very well lately but if you just look at the gsl you will see that zerg players (except for maybe nestea and to some extent losira as well) isn't doing superb either. The difference between zerg and terran is bigger than zerg and protoss, so i wouldn't say that the main problem is that protoss isn't doing very well right now. But great thread though, i agree with most of what is said 
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On September 19 2011 23:11 manloveman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 23:05 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:03 perestain wrote:On September 19 2011 22:53 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:
And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Eh, no idea where you got the "way more systematic approach" in SC2. -_- The exact opposite is the case, actually. Brood War has much better structured teams, dedicated coaches and in-house practice partners whose job is basically to test builds. Also, "metagame messiahs" are actually a common phenomenon in RTS games. Most of the times where a game took a big evolutionary step, it's been ONE GUY who figured something out and found a way to include it in the game. Even if you're right, it doesnt make a difference, you have to actually make sure you have an even battlefield, not assume someone will eventually come and make it even, otherwise results are not worth much. If you constantly keep artificially "evening out" the battlefield every time the results aren't balanced, then it's quite literally not a sport or even a competition (or even a game). Besides, it's not like you're not dealing in guesses and assumptions - you're ASSUMING that there is no solution to a problem. And you're assuming that after like what, 2 or 3 months of that problem's appearance? (2-3 months = nothing in an competitive RTS's lifetime) Well numbers suggest Terran being on top for what, a year now. Its just a degree of how much on top they are. Protoss and Zerg taking turns on being buttom and middle. Its really not 2-3 month period at all
Do you watch numbers, or do you watch Starcraft?
I watch Starcraft, and based on the games and players' display of skill that I see and given the current level of competition I EXPECT mvp, Bomber, MMA and Nada to be in the top constantly (even though that isn't the case), as they are genuine top level players and they show it through their mechanics and generally having extremely strong RTS fundamentals. I expect the same of NesTea and to a lesser extent LosirA and DRG (even though the latter two also haven't had too much success at all).
If these players were to win the next 10 starleagues among the current competition, I still wouldn't see a problem with the game at all.
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On September 19 2011 23:47 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 23:11 manloveman wrote:On September 19 2011 23:05 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:03 perestain wrote:On September 19 2011 22:53 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:
And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Eh, no idea where you got the "way more systematic approach" in SC2. -_- The exact opposite is the case, actually. Brood War has much better structured teams, dedicated coaches and in-house practice partners whose job is basically to test builds. Also, "metagame messiahs" are actually a common phenomenon in RTS games. Most of the times where a game took a big evolutionary step, it's been ONE GUY who figured something out and found a way to include it in the game. Even if you're right, it doesnt make a difference, you have to actually make sure you have an even battlefield, not assume someone will eventually come and make it even, otherwise results are not worth much. If you constantly keep artificially "evening out" the battlefield every time the results aren't balanced, then it's quite literally not a sport or even a competition (or even a game). Besides, it's not like you're not dealing in guesses and assumptions - you're ASSUMING that there is no solution to a problem. And you're assuming that after like what, 2 or 3 months of that problem's appearance? (2-3 months = nothing in an competitive RTS's lifetime) Well numbers suggest Terran being on top for what, a year now. Its just a degree of how much on top they are. Protoss and Zerg taking turns on being buttom and middle. Its really not 2-3 month period at all Do you watch numbers, or do you watch Starcraft? I watch Starcraft, and based on the games and players' display of skill that I see and given the current level of competition I EXPECT mvp, Bomber, MMA and Nada to be in the top constantly (even though that isn't the case), as they are genuine top level players and they show it through their mechanics and generally having extremely strong RTS fundamentals. I expect the same of NesTea and to a lesser extent LosirA and DRG (even though the latter two also haven't had too much success at all). If these players were to win the next 10 starleagues among the current competition, I still wouldn't see a problem with the game at all.
So it's just a coincidence none of the top players picked protoss, and MC who was once regarded as the best in the world, now can't even beat a 35 percent winrate zerg a few months later. I totally buy it!
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On September 19 2011 23:50 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 23:47 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:11 manloveman wrote:On September 19 2011 23:05 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:03 perestain wrote:On September 19 2011 22:53 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:
And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Eh, no idea where you got the "way more systematic approach" in SC2. -_- The exact opposite is the case, actually. Brood War has much better structured teams, dedicated coaches and in-house practice partners whose job is basically to test builds. Also, "metagame messiahs" are actually a common phenomenon in RTS games. Most of the times where a game took a big evolutionary step, it's been ONE GUY who figured something out and found a way to include it in the game. Even if you're right, it doesnt make a difference, you have to actually make sure you have an even battlefield, not assume someone will eventually come and make it even, otherwise results are not worth much. If you constantly keep artificially "evening out" the battlefield every time the results aren't balanced, then it's quite literally not a sport or even a competition (or even a game). Besides, it's not like you're not dealing in guesses and assumptions - you're ASSUMING that there is no solution to a problem. And you're assuming that after like what, 2 or 3 months of that problem's appearance? (2-3 months = nothing in an competitive RTS's lifetime) Well numbers suggest Terran being on top for what, a year now. Its just a degree of how much on top they are. Protoss and Zerg taking turns on being buttom and middle. Its really not 2-3 month period at all Do you watch numbers, or do you watch Starcraft? I watch Starcraft, and based on the games and players' display of skill that I see and given the current level of competition I EXPECT mvp, Bomber, MMA and Nada to be in the top constantly (even though that isn't the case), as they are genuine top level players and they show it through their mechanics and generally having extremely strong RTS fundamentals. I expect the same of NesTea and to a lesser extent LosirA and DRG (even though the latter two also haven't had too much success at all). If these players were to win the next 10 starleagues among the current competition, I still wouldn't see a problem with the game at all. So it's just a coincidence none of the top players picked protoss, and MC who was once regarded as the best in the world, now can't even beat a 35 percent winrate zerg a few months later. I totally buy it!
Reminds me of what happens to FruitDealer/IntoTheRainbow/MarineKing (to some extent).
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On September 19 2011 23:52 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 23:50 Jinivus wrote:On September 19 2011 23:47 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:11 manloveman wrote:On September 19 2011 23:05 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:03 perestain wrote:On September 19 2011 22:53 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:
And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Eh, no idea where you got the "way more systematic approach" in SC2. -_- The exact opposite is the case, actually. Brood War has much better structured teams, dedicated coaches and in-house practice partners whose job is basically to test builds. Also, "metagame messiahs" are actually a common phenomenon in RTS games. Most of the times where a game took a big evolutionary step, it's been ONE GUY who figured something out and found a way to include it in the game. Even if you're right, it doesnt make a difference, you have to actually make sure you have an even battlefield, not assume someone will eventually come and make it even, otherwise results are not worth much. If you constantly keep artificially "evening out" the battlefield every time the results aren't balanced, then it's quite literally not a sport or even a competition (or even a game). Besides, it's not like you're not dealing in guesses and assumptions - you're ASSUMING that there is no solution to a problem. And you're assuming that after like what, 2 or 3 months of that problem's appearance? (2-3 months = nothing in an competitive RTS's lifetime) Well numbers suggest Terran being on top for what, a year now. Its just a degree of how much on top they are. Protoss and Zerg taking turns on being buttom and middle. Its really not 2-3 month period at all Do you watch numbers, or do you watch Starcraft? I watch Starcraft, and based on the games and players' display of skill that I see and given the current level of competition I EXPECT mvp, Bomber, MMA and Nada to be in the top constantly (even though that isn't the case), as they are genuine top level players and they show it through their mechanics and generally having extremely strong RTS fundamentals. I expect the same of NesTea and to a lesser extent LosirA and DRG (even though the latter two also haven't had too much success at all). If these players were to win the next 10 starleagues among the current competition, I still wouldn't see a problem with the game at all. So it's just a coincidence none of the top players picked protoss, and MC who was once regarded as the best in the world, now can't even beat a 35 percent winrate zerg a few months later. I totally buy it! Reminds me of what happens to FruitDealer/IntoTheRainbow/MarineKing (to some extent).
Completely different. Fruitdealer had a 1 month run but MC has been regarded as the best protoss and for a time best period for a year.
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Sad that MC and Alicia are out 
But we still got HerO and JYP
Hopefully they get atleast RO8, the patch might come before the up and down....
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toss has always been the weakest race, it's about time zergs finally learned how to play. warpgate units are absolutely terrible because of wg, hts are a joke (fungal does more and keeps units in place lololol), collosus have units dedicated to fuck em up, and voids are expensive as fuck and die to handful of marines (dont get me started on the mothership and carriers). the only save grace we have is that we can turtle and form a deathball, which seems to be the only way our units function effectively.
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"More GG, More Skill." -Whitera
I'm trying I really am!
Must keep the faith, MUST!
I'm also waiting the day that the almighty San-storm resumes and Master San returns to sweep all Terran and Zerg into the gutter!
Now, I'm off to mourn the loss of MC :'(
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On September 19 2011 23:59 Choboo wrote:
Lol no Mana?
Didn't he just get 3-0ed by MC? You know, that protoss that apparently is irrelevant now?
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Sigh. Once again it seems no one really thinks about HongUn. Even anypro isn’t on that list of honorable mentions, and they’ve both had good, consistent results in the GSL (well may be not as much for anypro, but definitely for HongUn). Or, by not mentioning HongUn, are you saying he is good? It’s unclear because you say “Code S and players like MC and Alicia”. I think at the moment HongUn is just about as good as both of them, if not better (he hasn’t even fallen to Code A yet and has had wrist problems), or at least in the tournament result sense.
Anyway I disagree with you saying Genius is so underrated. He’s good and he’s Code S but he isn’t greater than many other Code S players. But that’s all personal experience to say someone is underrated, so perhaps the people you’ve seen do not like Genius a lot.
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On September 19 2011 23:50 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 23:47 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:11 manloveman wrote:On September 19 2011 23:05 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 23:03 perestain wrote:On September 19 2011 22:53 Talin wrote:On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:
And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Eh, no idea where you got the "way more systematic approach" in SC2. -_- The exact opposite is the case, actually. Brood War has much better structured teams, dedicated coaches and in-house practice partners whose job is basically to test builds. Also, "metagame messiahs" are actually a common phenomenon in RTS games. Most of the times where a game took a big evolutionary step, it's been ONE GUY who figured something out and found a way to include it in the game. Even if you're right, it doesnt make a difference, you have to actually make sure you have an even battlefield, not assume someone will eventually come and make it even, otherwise results are not worth much. If you constantly keep artificially "evening out" the battlefield every time the results aren't balanced, then it's quite literally not a sport or even a competition (or even a game). Besides, it's not like you're not dealing in guesses and assumptions - you're ASSUMING that there is no solution to a problem. And you're assuming that after like what, 2 or 3 months of that problem's appearance? (2-3 months = nothing in an competitive RTS's lifetime) Well numbers suggest Terran being on top for what, a year now. Its just a degree of how much on top they are. Protoss and Zerg taking turns on being buttom and middle. Its really not 2-3 month period at all Do you watch numbers, or do you watch Starcraft? I watch Starcraft, and based on the games and players' display of skill that I see and given the current level of competition I EXPECT mvp, Bomber, MMA and Nada to be in the top constantly (even though that isn't the case), as they are genuine top level players and they show it through their mechanics and generally having extremely strong RTS fundamentals. I expect the same of NesTea and to a lesser extent LosirA and DRG (even though the latter two also haven't had too much success at all). If these players were to win the next 10 starleagues among the current competition, I still wouldn't see a problem with the game at all. So it's just a coincidence none of the top players picked protoss, and MC who was once regarded as the best in the world, now can't even beat a 35 percent winrate zerg a few months later. I totally buy it!
I'm not selling anything.
I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
While it may seem weird to you that one race/faction in a game doesn't have a genuine top player for a period of time, if you've been following RTS games for a little longer than just SC2, you'll know that it isn't unheard of at all.
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On September 20 2011 00:04 Jinivus wrote:Didn't he just get 3-0ed by MC? You know, that protoss that apparently is irrelevant now?
Isn't he the only Protoss in the world that consistently beats Korean Terrans? 5-2 vs Puma, 2-0 Nada, 3-0 Thorzain (you know, that guy who beat Hero 2-0 who is supposedly the new Protoss hope)... That series vs. MC was also very whacky and Mana said afterwards he didn't play his best because he was nervous and did strategies he wouldn't normally do.
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Isn't this all summed up in that the one protoss hope from before was able to rely on timings for easy wins because of many factors much more than the other races? OGSMC and I don't blame him I would use a 6 pool for the 50k prize pool, but his main moves in games were timings that were built to exploit a sudden macro burst which made his attacks powerful and follow that up with DECENT small army micro and you would get a win. Though I wouldn't toss Alicia off the wagon yet he can late game army micro manage like a BOSS, his overall strategy and in game choices tend to leave him in the losing column for now, but some of the best BW players took other players strategies and just played them better
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Nobody mentioning mouzmana he is doing rly good
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We still got..HuK.. come on guys... protoss will bounce back... trust me..send MC to mlg NOW!! get him his Code A. MC = December Code S champ.. you heard it here!
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EPT
