It would be interesting to know what the koreans think about MC being knocked out and oevral toss balance. Does anyone read orean and can go check that out pls?
On September 20 2011 00:52 Anomandaris wrote: It would be interesting to know what the koreans think about MC being knocked out and oevral toss balance. Does anyone read orean and can go check that out pls?
Play XP poll had like a ridiculous amount saying Protoss is underpowered and that was even before MC fell to code A I think. The consensus in Korea is that terran is op and Protoss sucks I believe.
On September 19 2011 19:04 Yaki wrote: Protoss in general are having a bad time it's not just MC and Alicia. HerO and Naniwa got roflestomped by terran at Dreamhack. Just wait MC will make a come back and win a championship again.
Except that Rain & ThorZain were better players than NaNiWa and Hero ^^'.
Im pretty sure Monster and SeleCT were better players than MC and Alicia. ^^
On September 19 2011 19:04 Yaki wrote: Protoss in general are having a bad time it's not just MC and Alicia. HerO and Naniwa got roflestomped by terran at Dreamhack. Just wait MC will make a come back and win a championship again.
Except that Rain & ThorZain were better players than NaNiWa and Hero ^^'.
Im pretty sure Monster and SeleCT were better players than MC and Alicia. ^^
Well duh. Don't you know only horrible players pick protoss?
This thread is reaching Battle.net 2010 zerg whine levels. There's about the same amount of zergs in Code S and Code A so i guess they don't really have much of a chance either. Maybe it's more of terran being a bit to good than protoss being so utterly horrible.
Also there's changes incoming that at least marginally affects PvZ in favour of protoss.
On September 20 2011 00:56 karpo wrote: This thread is reaching Battle.net 2010 zerg whine levels. There's about the same amount of zergs in Code S so i guess they don't really have much of a chance either. Maybe it's more of terran being a bit to good than protoss being so utterly horrible.
Also there's changes incoming that at least marginally affects PvZ in favour of protoss.
Zergs didn't micro. Seriously. Go back and look at their games. Toss mentality was changed by MC's dominant performance that is all.
On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
This is not Brood War. You can keep waiting for that "top player" to show up while the entire legitimacy of the esport crumbles around you. How many people have stopped buying tickets for GSL because of the obvious and stupid imbalance that started months and months ago once innovation hit diminishing returns?
Or you could take a look at the complete joke that protoss everything, units, timings, base defenses, has become and understand why it happened. At what point will you finally admit that the game is broken? It won't be long before lasting damage is done to Starcraft as an esport. Protoss pros have struggled against a steeper and steeper slope and you can already hear the creaks of impending failure from the veterans.
Honestly, I'm impressed with MC's sheer resilience, he's taken blow after blow and continued to fight on. So many of the timing attacks and all-ins that are used today by Protoss in a desperate attempt to squeeze out a win or two, those were his inventions. But I'll say this, if Blizzard doesn't step in soon, pro after pro will crack from the pressure. And once these veteran pros are gone, the damage to Starcraft's image as an excellent competitive game will be very hard to repair.
On September 20 2011 00:11 Ashes wrote: We still got..HuK.. come on guys... protoss will bounce back... trust me..send MC to mlg NOW!! get him his Code A. MC = December Code S champ.. you heard it here!
Except he can't get code A through MLG.
I thought he could, if he wins, because he is not coded anymore (A or S)
I am afraid not. Koreans can't get code A spot through MLG, only code S when they are in the top 3.
On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
This is not Brood War. You can keep waiting for that "top player" to show up while the entire legitimacy of the esport crumbles around you. How many people have stopped buying tickets for GSL because of the obvious and stupid imbalance that started months and months ago once innovation hit diminishing returns?
Or you could take a look at the complete joke that protoss everything, units, timings, base defenses, has become and understand why it happened. At what point will you finally admit that the game is broken? It won't be long before lasting damage is done to Starcraft as an esport. Protoss pros have struggled against a steeper and steeper slope and you can already hear the creaks of impending failure from the veterans.
Honestly, I'm impressed with MC's sheer resilience, he's taken blow after blow and continued to fight on. So many of the timing attacks and all-ins that are used today by Protoss in a desperate attempt to squeeze out a win or two, those were his inventions. But I'll say this, if Blizzard doesn't step in soon, pro after pro will crack from the pressure. And once these veteran pros are gone, the damage to Starcraft's image as an excellent competitive game will be very hard to repair.
On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
Tons of cases where all previous results in the matchup lead you to believe the toss is more skilled and he just gets owned. Examples : ( Puzzle vs ryung, MC vs monster, MC vs noblesse etc.) It is the end of the world. The entertainment value of GSL is dead for me. The game is 2 races, and simply by being a protoss you are almost automatically unfavored in the match. And when did another protoss player win 2 GSLs? I must have missed where they did that and did better than MC did.
Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung? Give me a break. They're even at best. MC vs Noblesse isn't much of a skill discrepancy right now either. In fact all of MC's examples you base his skill on his past accomplishments rather than present ability.
I'm sorry, but wanting the game to change so that GSL can entertain you more just doesn't sound like a very convincing reason for me. It's a competition, not a show.
Also, you can't encourage Blizzard to do absolutely anything. They do things when they want and how they want. Just because some changes (not nearly all of them) coincide with what the masses wanted in the past doesn't mean that all the whining has any influence on their decisions.
Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung, simply because look at how far Ryung is from the top of his race, whilst Puzzle is easily top 5 and i'm heavily stretching it. I find it really hard to believe all the experienced players decided to randomly pick zerg or terran. I don't even get how you can even argue that?
Whoa, that's a LOT of relativistic arguments. Ryung isn't a top 5 Terran therefore he can't possibly be a better (or even equal) player than a top 5 Protoss? Are we even discussing Starcraft here, or is it just some arbitrary ranking logic based on statistics alone? -_-
On September 20 2011 00:50 sekritzzz wrote: Maybe protoss getting knocked out left and right has something to do with the consistent whine-related nerfs it has suffered because our win rates took a nose dive right after the buffs zerg/terran got.
No. Masses of people whined and Blizzard implemented balance changes - it doesn't mean whining caused the change. Most of the time the changes weren't even close to what the community wanted.
On September 20 2011 00:59 hummingbird23 wrote: This is not Brood War. You can keep waiting for that "top player" to show up while the entire legitimacy of the esport crumbles around you. How many people have stopped buying tickets for GSL because of the obvious and stupid imbalance that started months and months ago once innovation hit diminishing returns?
How is "this is not Brood War" sentence invalidating anything I said?
Brood War waited quite a while for Bisu, and then it waited a long time for JangBi, while Terran and Zerg lined up one bonjwa after the other and surprisingly enough it didn't collapse as an e-sport.
Too bad it's nearly inconceivable for JYP or Hero to advance to code S with all the terrans. They have awful PvT. Puzzle really is the only hope but he is probably gonna go to the up and downs with the group he has so yeah.
On September 19 2011 19:04 Yaki wrote: Protoss in general are having a bad time it's not just MC and Alicia. HerO and Naniwa got roflestomped by terran at Dreamhack. Just wait MC will make a come back and win a championship again.
Except that Rain & ThorZain were better players than NaNiWa and Hero ^^'.
Im pretty sure Monster and SeleCT were better players than MC and Alicia. ^^
Lol Alicia loses to ToD in a balanced match-up, PvP, pretty hardcore. What did you expect? :D Slayers were "bad" in TvP and seems to be good enough only recently so maybe it had to do with their main protoss not being solid enough in PvT... And Monster is sick good, but yeah PvZ is insanely hard. MC will be back don't worry
On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
This is not Brood War. You can keep waiting for that "top player" to show up while the entire legitimacy of the esport crumbles around you. How many people have stopped buying tickets for GSL because of the obvious and stupid imbalance that started months and months ago once innovation hit diminishing returns?
Or you could take a look at the complete joke that protoss everything, units, timings, base defenses, has become and understand why it happened. At what point will you finally admit that the game is broken? It won't be long before lasting damage is done to Starcraft as an esport. Protoss pros have struggled against a steeper and steeper slope and you can already hear the creaks of impending failure from the veterans.
Honestly, I'm impressed with MC's sheer resilience, he's taken blow after blow and continued to fight on. So many of the timing attacks and all-ins that are used today by Protoss in a desperate attempt to squeeze out a win or two, those were his inventions. But I'll say this, if Blizzard doesn't step in soon, pro after pro will crack from the pressure. And once these veteran pros are gone, the damage to Starcraft's image as an excellent competitive game will be very hard to repair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plWnm7UpsXk
Fixed.
exactly this, seems like judgment's day is about to hit us all xD, just look at what zerg went trough, they were getting their asses handed because they would not try something else and they would just want to cry their hearts out, now their using strategies that have been in the age since release almost but that noone figured out till a bit ago, protoss isnt in such a bad shape, even though its currently week
On September 19 2011 19:04 Yaki wrote: Protoss in general are having a bad time it's not just MC and Alicia. HerO and Naniwa got roflestomped by terran at Dreamhack. Just wait MC will make a come back and win a championship again.
Except that Rain & ThorZain were better players than NaNiWa and Hero ^^'.
Im pretty sure Monster and SeleCT were better players than MC and Alicia. ^^
Lol Alicia loses to ToD in a balanced match-up, PvP, pretty hardcore. What did you expect? :D Slayers were "bad" in TvP and seems to be good enough only recently so maybe it had to do with their main protoss not being solid enough in PvT... And Monster is sick good, but yeah PvZ is insanely hard. MC will be back don't worry
Alicia was a PvT sniper and his best match-up was PvT before the protoss downfall.
On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
This is not Brood War. You can keep waiting for that "top player" to show up while the entire legitimacy of the esport crumbles around you. How many people have stopped buying tickets for GSL because of the obvious and stupid imbalance that started months and months ago once innovation hit diminishing returns?
Or you could take a look at the complete joke that protoss everything, units, timings, base defenses, has become and understand why it happened. At what point will you finally admit that the game is broken? It won't be long before lasting damage is done to Starcraft as an esport. Protoss pros have struggled against a steeper and steeper slope and you can already hear the creaks of impending failure from the veterans.
Honestly, I'm impressed with MC's sheer resilience, he's taken blow after blow and continued to fight on. So many of the timing attacks and all-ins that are used today by Protoss in a desperate attempt to squeeze out a win or two, those were his inventions. But I'll say this, if Blizzard doesn't step in soon, pro after pro will crack from the pressure. And once these veteran pros are gone, the damage to Starcraft's image as an excellent competitive game will be very hard to repair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plWnm7UpsXk
Fixed.
exactly this, seems like judgment's day is about to hit us all xD, just look at what zerg went trough, they were getting their asses handed because they would not try something else and they would just want to cry their hearts out, now their using strategies that have been in the age since release almost but that noone figured out till a bit ago, protoss isnt in such a bad shape, even though its currently week
Zerg wasn't even close to this bad of shape, and guess what? They got buffed, and toss got nerfed. CONSIDERABLY. Perhaps you should try drawing an accurate comparison?
On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
Tons of cases where all previous results in the matchup lead you to believe the toss is more skilled and he just gets owned. Examples : ( Puzzle vs ryung, MC vs monster, MC vs noblesse etc.) It is the end of the world. The entertainment value of GSL is dead for me. The game is 2 races, and simply by being a protoss you are almost automatically unfavored in the match. And when did another protoss player win 2 GSLs? I must have missed where they did that and did better than MC did.
Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung? Give me a break. They're even at best. MC vs Noblesse isn't much of a skill discrepancy right now either. In fact all of MC's examples you base his skill on his past accomplishments rather than present ability.
I'm sorry, but wanting the game to change so that GSL can entertain you more just doesn't sound like a very convincing reason for me. It's a competition, not a show.
Also, you can't encourage Blizzard to do absolutely anything. They do things when they want and how they want. Just because some changes (not nearly all of them) coincide with what the masses wanted in the past doesn't mean that all the whining has any influence on their decisions.
Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung, simply because look at how far Ryung is from the top of his race, whilst Puzzle is easily top 5 and i'm heavily stretching it. I find it really hard to believe all the experienced players decided to randomly pick zerg or terran. I don't even get how you can even argue that?
Whoa, that's a LOT of relativistic arguments. Ryung isn't a top 5 Terran therefore he can't possibly be a better (or even equal) player than a top 5 Protoss? Are we even discussing Starcraft here, or is it just some arbitrary ranking logic based on statistics alone? -_-
On September 20 2011 00:50 sekritzzz wrote: Maybe protoss getting knocked out left and right has something to do with the consistent whine-related nerfs it has suffered because our win rates took a nose dive right after the buffs zerg/terran got.
No. Masses of people whined and Blizzard implemented balance changes - it doesn't mean whining caused the change. Most of the time the changes weren't even close to what the community wanted.
Its not relativistic, rather its proof that there is something fundamentally wrong with the race or as you say..........for every 95% of the people that are good in playing starcraft 65% pick terran, 30% pick zerg. The other 5% picks protoss.
The example of ryung/puzzle is just a random example but taking the overall picture, the amount of good/consistent zerg/terran players I'd need both my hand and feet for each race separately. You even consider MC a gimmicky/unstable player, but then again, who is left? MC is undoubtedly the best/most consistent protoss player. I can't even name anyone other than MC who is consistent/good because of the way the race is supposed to be played. Again, im not saying we are underpowered or overpowered but the race is fundamentally flawed in the way protoss players are forced to play it.
EPT
