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Canada13389 Posts
I need to say that in some situations im watching and cant help but think: If x wasnt nerfed then this could have been different.
Looking at the JYP games today for example
+ Show Spoiler +while he won game one, if flux vanes were still around the void rays could have survived for longer than they did and they could have gotten to where the ovies were to kill some of them before all the hydras dropped out of them. They could have run away from hydras on creep without losing one or two void rays every time they engaged. then a carrier transition could have been a possible follow up to the void rays instead of rushing down the collossus tech path AFTER starting on the stargate tech path.
Terrans wouldnt be able to use every single emp in a spam attempt to disable all shields and energy if amulet was around. They would need to save an emp or two and think ahead about potential HT reinforcements with a storm ready.
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On September 20 2011 01:32 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote:
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts). People do allins because infestors and ghosts are ridiculously difficult to stop. Give us our caster power back (not as amulet that was stupid, something else to return Templar to their former glory) and we'll macro all day. Well, protoss mostly do all-ins because it's almost impossible to secure a third base as protoss quickly enough to not be way behind. Zerg drones way faster than protoss, and can expand quicker and easier (yay fast units!). Terran has MULES, so equal base situations favor the terran. Not to mention terran units are just plain more efficient before end-game tech. So yeah, playing a macro game as protoss is folly, because protoss is always behind when it gets to the late game unless they do decisive damage early on. Problem is, protoss units suck unless they're in a big ball working together (which is why it's so hard to secure a third, your whole army has to be together to not suck and all the enemy has to do is hit two places at once), and our early game pressure got nerfed to hell. Protoss was over nerfed.
Yea thank you for this. A protoss player trying to out-macro an equally skilled zerg is stupid. Everyone knows a full macro zerg is far superior to any other race in terms of how fast they can get income. Not to mention the options it leaves open for zerg is a strategy game to easily shut down a protoss 3rd while keeping their own.
Idra telling protoss players to sit on their ass and out-macro zerg is not enough proof for me that it works(because this seems to be the FOTM, to tell protoss to macro). Either he needs to prove it or i'll take it as another "morrow is a gold player" type comment.
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688 Posts
really, Protoss in GSL has always sucked, ever since the first GSL. Only MC has had success and besides him only freaking Inca has made it past Ro4. Is that because all protoss players are bad or because of shitty game design, who knows there seems to be alot of debate about that.
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On September 20 2011 01:39 raga4ka wrote:
JYP and Sage could get code - S i don't think any other protoss has what it takes to get pass the up and down matches .
JYP can't. His PvT is simply garbage. Maybe if he gets an extremely lucky bracket, but with so many terrans in up and downs it's inevitable. Also Sage is Alicia 2.0, not to mention he's lost like his last 6 games vs zerg in a row, and barely has a 50 percent winrate.
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On September 20 2011 01:32 Whitewing wrote:
Well, protoss mostly do all-ins because it's almost impossible to secure a third base as protoss quickly enough to not be way behind.
Zerg drones way faster than protoss, and can expand quicker and easier (yay fast units!). Terran has MULES, so equal base situations favor the terran. Not to mention terran units are just plain more efficient before end-game tech.
Eh the whole "Protoss end game tech is the best" thing is so last year. With deathballs long figured out, and infestor buffs, templar nerf etc, they probably have the weakest endgame now. Maybe not super super endgame with 3/3/3 voids and whatnot but that's not realistic stuff.
3rd base being hard to secure is more about having to be so defensive imo. Allowing Terran/Zerg easy teching to mass infestor/ghost is suicidal.
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Sometimes when I'm going over the daily and usual
Protoss player: "Protoss is UP!! NO OTHER EXPLANATION!!!!!!!!!"
Non-protoss player: "Protoss is not playing the game right!! FACT!!!!!"
I dream faintly of an absurd and fantastical world where I would enter into the latest LR thread where the latest Protoss stalwart had fallen, and see
Protoss player: "We just couldn't figure this out, and it's hard  "
Non-protoss palyer: "There there, we know how it feels. Zerg's been through a similar time. You'll figure this out! And maybe, maybe, maybe we could hope blizzard would patch you into better shape!"
The way things are, I just get extra depressed reading the shitstorm after being depressed by the latest protoss tragedy.
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On September 20 2011 01:40 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:39 raga4ka wrote:
JYP and Sage could get code - S i don't think any other protoss has what it takes to get pass the up and down matches . JYP can't. His PvT is simply garbage. Maybe if he gets an extremely lucky bracket, but with so many terrans in up and downs it's inevitable. Also Sage is Alicia 2.0, not to mention he's lost like his last 6 games vs zerg in a row, and barely has a 50 percent winrate.
They are the most skilled protoss players in code A . Hero is also good , but i am not buying in to his hype so quickly and i don't think he can compete with top A and low level code S players yet .
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On September 20 2011 01:31 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote:
1) BW was never this bad.
2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring. 1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player). 2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game. Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat. It never ends, and it certainly never ends well.
Why is it sooo inconceivable to people like you that the game might require another patch or two to improve the balance? Is such a concept so absurd that it cannot even be considered? Why didn't we have this 'no more patching attitude' before the KA and warpgate nerfs? Why couldn't we have stopped patching and let the metagame sort it out before those major nerfs? Do you really know so much more than all the top Korean protoss players (and even one terran player) and experts like Gisado who are claiming a problem?
Even Dustin Browder himself has admitted that terran is the only complete race so I don't know why you have to be so stubbornly blinkered into the idea that this is the best we can get.
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naniwa's picture is scary
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On September 20 2011 01:40 hai2u wrote:
really, Protoss in GSL has always sucked, ever since the first GSL. Only MC has had success and besides him only freaking Inca has made it past Ro4. Is that because all protoss players are bad or because of shitty game design, who knows there seems to be alot of debate about that.
This is the quintessential truth people are avoiding in every thread about protoss. And also the argument that was made about protoss in one of the TL write-ups.
MC has fallen from grace, but was MC supposed to succeed in the first place? I truly believe that at the highest level of play, protoss has NEVER had any chance at all, and MC made it possible because at his best he's truly a great player. You say 6-gate was OP and couldn't be beaten at the time, well, I say only MC made it work consistently because it required perfect macro, perfect micro and forcefields, and perfect timings.
Protoss was supposedly OP on foreigner matches, on leagues, where people aren't nearly as good. The only other possibility is that truly the worst players are attracted to protoss for some reason, which I find really weird. I still think that protoss needs to be completely discovered, but also, blizzard needs to help out a bit here. Give a small early game buff to help set up for more options in the mid-late game, make air worthwhile by doing something with carriers and the mothership, and do something about templars, maybe WPs are the solution though, some players make it look possible. MC among them let me remind you.
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On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:31 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote:
1) BW was never this bad.
2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring. 1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player). 2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game. Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat. It never ends, and it certainly never ends well. Why is it sooo inconceivable to people like you that the game might require another patch or two to improve the balance? Is such a concept so absurd that it cannot even be considered? Why didn't we have this 'no more patching attitude' before the KA and warpgate nerfs? Why couldn't we have stopped patching and let the metagame sort it out before those major nerfs?
It's kind of absurd, given that every patch is pretty much a gamble. Nobody can possibly conceive all the consequences of a balance change immediately, and it could (and usually does) just as easily create additional problems in various matchups later on. With that attitude, you'll never stop patching, which is just absurd because then you're effectively determining all the results by patching.
We already have patches on average each 2 months, and they never seem to fix anything long term. It's just going back and forth. You act as if patches solve something, but they don't - they only change things.
I thought the game was perfectly playable after Terrans could no longer build Barracks before Depots btw. -_-
On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:
Do you really know so much more than all the top Korean protoss players (and even one terran player) and experts like Gisado who are claiming a problem?
No, I'm saying that they don't know everything. Obviously I know even less, but until you've got the game crunched down to the last detail, you can't conclusively claim it's imbalanced. And since knowing everything in a game of such complexity is not humanly possible, all balance complaints are really based on arbitrary and incomplete observations.
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On September 20 2011 01:40 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:32 Whitewing wrote:On September 20 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote:
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts). People do allins because infestors and ghosts are ridiculously difficult to stop. Give us our caster power back (not as amulet that was stupid, something else to return Templar to their former glory) and we'll macro all day. Well, protoss mostly do all-ins because it's almost impossible to secure a third base as protoss quickly enough to not be way behind. Zerg drones way faster than protoss, and can expand quicker and easier (yay fast units!). Terran has MULES, so equal base situations favor the terran. Not to mention terran units are just plain more efficient before end-game tech. So yeah, playing a macro game as protoss is folly, because protoss is always behind when it gets to the late game unless they do decisive damage early on. Problem is, protoss units suck unless they're in a big ball working together (which is why it's so hard to secure a third, your whole army has to be together to not suck and all the enemy has to do is hit two places at once), and our early game pressure got nerfed to hell. Protoss was over nerfed. Yea thank you for this. A protoss player trying to out-macro an equally skilled zerg is stupid. Everyone knows a full macro zerg is far superior to any other race in terms of how fast they can get income. Not to mention the options it leaves open for zerg is a strategy game to easily shut down a protoss 3rd while keeping their own. Idra telling protoss players to sit on their ass and out-macro zerg is not enough proof for me that it works(because this seems to be the FOTM, to tell protoss to macro). Either he needs to prove it or i'll take it as another "morrow is a gold player" type comment.
If you believe that playing a macro game = sitting in your base building units and doing nothing else, then I'm sorry that your race is so terrible, you literally can't move out on the map without being crushed. 'Macro' Terrans started off by doing a push, build up, push, build up, push style against Zerg, which is terrible. Nowadays, Terrans don't do this at all, they are teching, expanding, doing drops, whilst clearing the creep poking the front whilst being safe vs counter aggession. Is this because Terran is so much better than Protoss that Protoss can't at least try and emulate this? Maybe, but I haven't seen many Protosses besides Hero attempt to move out of the 1a Deathball syndrome/2 base all in syndrome. Protoss players have to relearn what a macro game is and if it turns out, they HAVE to stay in their base in order to macro, then fine P is weak. At least try before you say that though.
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On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote:
People talk of Zerg getting buffed (2011 buffs that is, 2010 Zerg was clearly too weak), but to say that Zerg without the infestor buff will stilll be going roach hydra corruptor vs Protoss is just retarded. Zerg play has adapted to Protoss 1a deathball so much that actually, Losira and Nestea, our best ZvP players, don't even use the so called imba op infestor in most of their matches.
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts).
You do know that when protoss macro, they make deathballs. However you want us to stop deathballs while continue to macro? Im not sure what you are trying to get at.
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I am displeased at the lack of mana in your main AND "honorable mention" groups.
After all, he only has one of the best pvts not only in europe but also in the world.
Give him credit for that.
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On September 20 2011 01:55 Luminox wrote:
I am displeased at the lack of mana in your main AND "honorable mention" groups.
After all, he only has one of the best pvts not only in europe but also in the world.
Give him credit for that.
You base this in him beating Puma in a game? Has he ever beat MVP, Bomber? What about MMA? In a live setting? Any mid-high korean terrans? Because in order to be one of the best PvTers in the world you definitely need to be able to face the best terran competition out there, and foreigners are not even close.
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On September 19 2011 23:20 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 22:43 perestain wrote:On September 19 2011 22:21 karpo wrote:On September 19 2011 22:15 perestain wrote:
Reality is that protoss does not play a role in the outcome of tournaments anymore. There is no point in playing protoss if you actually want to win something, since even players who are considered the absolute best in the world are not competitive anymore when they play protoss.
At this point, cultivating a romantic idea about someone eventually figuring out some magic playstyle that will change the metagame is basically just taking a big, warm and steaming shit on the principles of fair competition IMO.
Protoss needs either to be repaired or to be completely disallowed in official competition, as its really unfair for the athletes. In order to maximize their personal performance they need to ignore all balance issues and just continue practicing, which results in them getting fucked over pretty hard right now.
Such a defeatist attitude. It might be a metagame thing or it might be imbalance but please stop being so damn negative and whiny. And the reason people are cultivating a romantic idea that someone will figure out a "magic playstyle" is because this is exactly what happened in BW. Please point out where I am whiny. In order for SC2 to ever be regarded as a fair sports competition, you have to make sure you get a somewhat even battlefield. Otherwise it is all just a farce. Ever asked yourself why noone is taking prefessional wrestling serious? People there also prefer romantic legends over fair competition... And you cant compare bw to sc2, there is a multitude of people figuring out the game with a way more systematic approach. Unless you see starcraft as a religion there is no reason to believe in some magic coming of a metagame messias. Players should be protected from investing heavily into something which is systematically not archievable, since they themselves are not in the position to worry about these things without having their performance affected. Its not about dropping a league or something, for these people there are lives and careeres on the line. If esports is to become serious, people need to take it serious and act responsibly. You shouldn't comment about BW if you don't know very much about the game or its competitive scene. It just makes your overall point look equally thoughtless. Not trying to be an ass, but the reason I'm assuming you don't follow BW is because if you did, you would know how ridiculous it is to say that SC2 is more figured out than BW. Also, no one takes professional wrestling seriously because it is staged.
Thats a fair point actually,
although I played sc a bit when it was released back then I didn't follow the competitive scene too much, especially not as indepth to comment on any intricacies of actual gameplay or balance development.
From the perspective of a wider audience though I still think it is imperative that some kind of equal opportunity for all the races comes across if you want the game to be taken seriously as a sport, especially if there are people who base their career on it.
In SC2, ultimately you will never be able to be completely sure to what degree success comes from using racial advantages and to what degree it comes from individual skill. You have to make assumptions there, i.e. top terrans are especially strong this season etc. Thats ok.
But to give the viewers the idea of a fair competition you should make sure that the best of the best in korea can at least compete with each other to some degree. It is just not convincing to claim that the reason for such bad protoss performance in multiple consecutive seasons in all major tournaments is just because they all didn't figure stuff out that the other players did for their race. Right now there is still a similar amount of players for all races who put in a similar amount of training and expertise, they even train together with the other races top performers.
If this situation continues though, and the magical metagame messiah doesnt suddenly arrive, the influx of new protoss players will diminish, and the idea that protoss players are just weaker will inevitably become a self-fulfilling prophecy since noone will want to try anymore. Pro players care about winning, they're not willing to just give their life for aiur, at least for their own sake I hope they don't.
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On September 20 2011 01:47 DertoQq wrote:
naniwa's picture is scary
yeah it doesnt do him any favors, at least he lost weight
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On September 20 2011 01:55 Luminox wrote:
I am displeased at the lack of mana in your main AND "honorable mention" groups.
After all, he only has one of the best pvts not only in europe but also in the world.
Give him credit for that.
i agree fullheartedly, but for a north american it's not easy to follow the european scene. there are plenty of guys who don't even know who for example Nightend is, even tho he's a great player.
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GUYS.
Guys.
Guys....
Don't worry. The immortal has 6 range.
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No love for HongUn? Two semifinals, two quarterfinals, and has been in Code S since the beginning, plus taking out Taeja, Boxer and Ganzi in the GSTL. HongUn and Killer have done more than all of your "heroes" combined. And Genius, Puzzle and Huk are stuck with honorable mention? Come on, this thing you've written is silly.
Anyway, has anyone compiled a list of all the actual nerfs to Protoss that have been patched in so far?
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EPT
