|
On September 20 2011 02:29 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:21 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:08 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 02:03 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 01:52 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:On September 20 2011 01:31 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote:
1) BW was never this bad.
2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring. 1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player). 2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game. Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat. It never ends, and it certainly never ends well. Why is it sooo inconceivable to people like you that the game might require another patch or two to improve the balance? Is such a concept so absurd that it cannot even be considered? Why didn't we have this 'no more patching attitude' before the KA and warpgate nerfs? Why couldn't we have stopped patching and let the metagame sort it out before those major nerfs? It's kind of absurd, given that every patch is pretty much a gamble. Nobody can possibly conceive all the consequences of a balance change immediately, and it could (and usually does) just as easily create additional problems in various matchups later on. With that attitude, you'll never stop patching, which is just absurd because then you're effectively determining all the results by patching. We already have patches on average each 2 months, and they never seem to fix anything long term. It's just going back and forth. You act as if patches solve something, but they don't - they only change things. I thought the game was perfectly playable after Terrans could no longer build Barracks before Depots btw. -_- On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:
Do you really know so much more than all the top Korean protoss players (and even one terran player) and experts like Gisado who are claiming a problem? No, I'm saying that they don't know everything. Obviously I know even less, but until you've got the game crunched down to the last detail, you can't conclusively claim it's imbalanced. And since knowing everything in a game of such complexity is not humanly possible, all balance complaints are really based on arbitrary and incomplete observations. Well if balance is so unattainable might as well give Protoss a chance to win something right? So you would have another 33% (or 66%) of SC2 users whine instead of you, what's the difference? ^_^ Balance whining annoys me no matter where it comes from, and as for games on my level I win when I'm better than my opponent and lose when I'm worse. It's all the same to me. I wouldn't mind a Protoss-favored patch obviously, but I know it'll really change little in terms of how good overall game balance is and it will eventually just be counter-patched again (especially if the trend continues and people keep demanding and expecting patches). No i just want an enjoyable and competitive game at least from the perspective of a Protoss player. I want to actually have a shred of hope that a protoss player can take down a competent zerg or terran. Not be in a constant state of depression on these forums because I have to see MC play a PvZ on a freaking map like Dual Sight. That's what the depressed Zergs wanted as well, so they got super buffed on multiple fronts and apparently that's why you now can't have what you want, and so on and so forth. Among people who think balance is the be-all, end-all reason for players of certain race doing badly while a game is evolving very rapidly, then out of all of you, one third at least will always be unhappy and depressed. And the rest of us will have to swim through oceans of tears EVERYWHERE on forums. -_- What can I tell you... just don't get depressed.
Even during the deathball zergs weren't doing this bad. Protoss is at an unprecedented level of awfulness in sc2.
|
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame
|
On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners.
Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft.
JYP was in eSTRO i think.
Hero looks like Bisu+JD  and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style.
The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play.
|
On September 20 2011 02:34 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:29 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 02:21 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:08 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 02:03 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 01:52 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:On September 20 2011 01:31 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote:
1) BW was never this bad.
2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring. 1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player). 2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game. Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat. It never ends, and it certainly never ends well. Why is it sooo inconceivable to people like you that the game might require another patch or two to improve the balance? Is such a concept so absurd that it cannot even be considered? Why didn't we have this 'no more patching attitude' before the KA and warpgate nerfs? Why couldn't we have stopped patching and let the metagame sort it out before those major nerfs? It's kind of absurd, given that every patch is pretty much a gamble. Nobody can possibly conceive all the consequences of a balance change immediately, and it could (and usually does) just as easily create additional problems in various matchups later on. With that attitude, you'll never stop patching, which is just absurd because then you're effectively determining all the results by patching. We already have patches on average each 2 months, and they never seem to fix anything long term. It's just going back and forth. You act as if patches solve something, but they don't - they only change things. I thought the game was perfectly playable after Terrans could no longer build Barracks before Depots btw. -_- On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:
Do you really know so much more than all the top Korean protoss players (and even one terran player) and experts like Gisado who are claiming a problem? No, I'm saying that they don't know everything. Obviously I know even less, but until you've got the game crunched down to the last detail, you can't conclusively claim it's imbalanced. And since knowing everything in a game of such complexity is not humanly possible, all balance complaints are really based on arbitrary and incomplete observations. Well if balance is so unattainable might as well give Protoss a chance to win something right? So you would have another 33% (or 66%) of SC2 users whine instead of you, what's the difference? ^_^ Balance whining annoys me no matter where it comes from, and as for games on my level I win when I'm better than my opponent and lose when I'm worse. It's all the same to me. I wouldn't mind a Protoss-favored patch obviously, but I know it'll really change little in terms of how good overall game balance is and it will eventually just be counter-patched again (especially if the trend continues and people keep demanding and expecting patches). No i just want an enjoyable and competitive game at least from the perspective of a Protoss player. I want to actually have a shred of hope that a protoss player can take down a competent zerg or terran. Not be in a constant state of depression on these forums because I have to see MC play a PvZ on a freaking map like Dual Sight. That's what the depressed Zergs wanted as well, so they got super buffed on multiple fronts and apparently that's why you now can't have what you want, and so on and so forth. Among people who think balance is the be-all, end-all reason for players of certain race doing badly while a game is evolving very rapidly, then out of all of you, one third at least will always be unhappy and depressed. And the rest of us will have to swim through oceans of tears EVERYWHERE on forums. -_- What can I tell you... just don't get depressed. Even during the deathball zergs weren't doing this bad. Protoss is at an unprecedented level of awfulness in sc2.
They sure complained just as bad.
Anyway, the only real difference is that Zergs always had one genuine, consistent top player with strong fundamentals in NesTea. Whereas Protoss don't. ^_^
|
On September 20 2011 02:37 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft. JYP was in eSTRO i think. Hero looks like Bisu+JD and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style. The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play.
Your point...? Puzzle was a major disappointment for a first round pick IIRC..and Hero played horribly vs thorzain. He only shows promise in PvZ but just building warp prisms doesn't mean you're a genius. MC has like 11 top 3 major tournament places while their "rock solid smart play" has done...well they're in Code A I guess.
|
On September 20 2011 02:31 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:07 RinconH wrote:On September 20 2011 01:53 Micket wrote:On September 20 2011 01:40 sekritzzz wrote:On September 20 2011 01:32 Whitewing wrote:On September 20 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote:
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts). People do allins because infestors and ghosts are ridiculously difficult to stop. Give us our caster power back (not as amulet that was stupid, something else to return Templar to their former glory) and we'll macro all day. Well, protoss mostly do all-ins because it's almost impossible to secure a third base as protoss quickly enough to not be way behind. Zerg drones way faster than protoss, and can expand quicker and easier (yay fast units!). Terran has MULES, so equal base situations favor the terran. Not to mention terran units are just plain more efficient before end-game tech. So yeah, playing a macro game as protoss is folly, because protoss is always behind when it gets to the late game unless they do decisive damage early on. Problem is, protoss units suck unless they're in a big ball working together (which is why it's so hard to secure a third, your whole army has to be together to not suck and all the enemy has to do is hit two places at once), and our early game pressure got nerfed to hell. Protoss was over nerfed. Yea thank you for this. A protoss player trying to out-macro an equally skilled zerg is stupid. Everyone knows a full macro zerg is far superior to any other race in terms of how fast they can get income. Not to mention the options it leaves open for zerg is a strategy game to easily shut down a protoss 3rd while keeping their own. Idra telling protoss players to sit on their ass and out-macro zerg is not enough proof for me that it works(because this seems to be the FOTM, to tell protoss to macro). Either he needs to prove it or i'll take it as another "morrow is a gold player" type comment. If you believe that playing a macro game = sitting in your base building units and doing nothing else, then I'm sorry that your race is so terrible, you literally can't move out on the map without being crushed. 'Macro' Terrans started off by doing a push, build up, push, build up, push style against Zerg, which is terrible. Nowadays, Terrans don't do this at all, they are teching, expanding, doing drops, whilst clearing the creep poking the front whilst being safe vs counter aggession. Is this because Terran is so much better than Protoss that Protoss can't at least try and emulate this? Maybe, but I haven't seen many Protosses besides Hero attempt to move out of the 1a Deathball syndrome/2 base all in syndrome. Protoss players have to relearn what a macro game is and if it turns out, they HAVE to stay in their base in order to macro, then fine P is weak. At least try before you say that though. lol - to paraphrase Jay-Z do you even watch games or do you just skim through them? Plenty of Protoss have tried and failed to find another way. They need to keep trying because the game needs a 3rd race but the deck is currently stacked against them. People seem to think that Zerg was whining for a while then "magically" tried "other ways" and got out of a slump. In fact, what actually happened: 1) they got buffs (infestor), 2) races got nerfs and 3) maps got bigger with more expos + attack paths, allowing them to utilize their racial advantages much more effectively (flanking, speed, mass expanding). TLDR: Zerg players didn't "find new ways" they benefited from balance changes and map changes. Expecting Protoss do the same without structural changes is unlikely. You are wrong. Take away infestors for Zerg, how would Zerg play? NOT Roach Hydra Corrupter. I am talking Spring 2011 where PvZ was at its worst, big maps were hurting Zerg more than ever against Protoss and everyone was doing things wrong. Losing 3rds to voidrays, dying to 6 gates, staying 2 base vs 2 base for a long time, going Hydra vs Robo, thinking roaches are good vs blink stalkers. Builds such as 3 hatch 1 gas and losira timing introduced good Zerg openings which gave them an edge vs FFE and 3 gate fe respectively, and Zerg was favoured ever since WITHOUT infestors. For fuck sake, DRG beat Naniwa with ling bling only, most Korean zergs don't use the stuff that actually was buffed. If every Protoss thought like you and said 'everything is explored, Protoss is simply weak, we HAVE to do 2 base all ins because WE CANNOT BEAT ZERGS OTHERWISE,' then innovation simply wouldn't exist. 1/1/1 is imba, but PvZ probably is not. If you keep telling yourself Zerg cannot be defeated if Protoss decides to take a third base, then I'm sorry for your loss.
lol "i'm wrong" and then you list reasons for the zerg resurgence that I listed in my post (Zerg got better because they used the big maps to their advantage i.e. fast 3rd, counter attacks and flanks).
Less rage, more thinking please.
I'm not writing from my sh:tty low masters, random-playing, perspective. For me, aside from 1-1-1, the game is balanced enough since the opponents I am facing aren't good enough to abuse their racial advantages.
I'm writing from the perspective of a viewer who finds tvt boring. I'm not biased (as you are, it seems), I just want to see good games.
Zerg wasn't broken (ok, maybe slightly but AOE damage of fungal fixed that), the maps were broken. Once the maps were fixed, Zergs were able to play their race properly.
No such horizon exists from Toss.
|
On September 20 2011 02:40 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft. JYP was in eSTRO i think. Hero looks like Bisu+JD and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style. The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play. Your point...? Puzzle was a major disappointment for a first round pick IIRC..and Hero played horribly vs thorzain. He only shows promise in PvZ but just building warp prisms doesn't mean you're a genius.
You bring bad arguments since when Thor loses games that he plans out days before the tournament ? Puzzle was like 16 when he was drafted maybe not everybody has terminator nerves like Flash to win starleagues on 16 ? Just watch Hero in his zone on his stream when he is not nervous and tell me that his play is not inspirational. Also Sage Bisuesk PvZ "I like" with smart play all across the board you bring 50'/. winrate blabla well when they don't play htf they are gonna get high winrate bro ? When Code S is crap btw what you gonna say the next day when Puzzle gets 2nd in his group and rolls Kongprime and ryung ?
|
On September 20 2011 02:46 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:40 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft. JYP was in eSTRO i think. Hero looks like Bisu+JD and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style. The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play. Your point...? Puzzle was a major disappointment for a first round pick IIRC..and Hero played horribly vs thorzain. He only shows promise in PvZ but just building warp prisms doesn't mean you're a genius. You bring bad arguments since when Thor loses games that he plans out days before the tournament ? Puzzle was like 16 when he was drafted maybe not everybody has terminator nerves like Flash to win starleagues on 16 ? Just watch Hero in his zone on his stream when he is not nervous and tell me that his play is not inspirational. Also Sage Bisuesk PvZ "I like" with smart play all across the board you bring 50'/. winrate blabla well when they don't play htf they are gonna get high winrate bro ? When Code S is crap btw what you gonna say the next day when Puzzle gets 2nd in his group and rolls Kongprime and ryung ?
can someone translate?
|
On September 20 2011 02:46 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:40 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft. JYP was in eSTRO i think. Hero looks like Bisu+JD and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style. The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play. Your point...? Puzzle was a major disappointment for a first round pick IIRC..and Hero played horribly vs thorzain. He only shows promise in PvZ but just building warp prisms doesn't mean you're a genius. You bring bad arguments since when Thor loses games that he plans out days before the tournament ? Puzzle was like 16 when he was drafted maybe not everybody has terminator nerves like Flash to win starleagues on 16 ? Just watch Hero in his zone on his stream when he is not nervous and tell me that his play is not inspirational. Also Sage Bisuesk PvZ "I like" with smart play all across the board you bring 50'/. winrate blabla well when they don't play htf they are gonna get high winrate bro ? When Code S is crap btw what you gonna say the next day when Puzzle gets 2nd in his group and rolls Kongprime and ryung ?
Hahaha. They do play actually, even with inferior competition in ICCUP weeklys and hold a 50 percent winrate. (except puzzle). Also sage's "Bisuesk" PvZ is MC's build. Also MKP and bomber are going to absolutely destroy puzzle :/.
|
On September 20 2011 02:48 Nightrain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:46 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:40 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft. JYP was in eSTRO i think. Hero looks like Bisu+JD and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style. The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play. Your point...? Puzzle was a major disappointment for a first round pick IIRC..and Hero played horribly vs thorzain. He only shows promise in PvZ but just building warp prisms doesn't mean you're a genius. You bring bad arguments since when Thor loses games that he plans out days before the tournament ? Puzzle was like 16 when he was drafted maybe not everybody has terminator nerves like Flash to win starleagues on 16 ? Just watch Hero in his zone on his stream when he is not nervous and tell me that his play is not inspirational. Also Sage Bisuesk PvZ "I like" with smart play all across the board you bring 50'/. winrate blabla well when they don't play htf they are gonna get high winrate bro ? When Code S is crap btw what you gonna say the next day when Puzzle gets 2nd in his group and rolls Kongprime and ryung ? can someone translate?
He's basically saying he doesn't like MC and everyone else is better even though their winrates, accomplishments, innovation, etc are inferior.
|
Would this be appropriate to say.... the current king of Protoss is.
+ Show Spoiler +None other than the JangBanger! ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/flamewheel/JangBi_Templar.png)
On a serious note, I honestly cannot believe what happened to El Presidente. I'm just at a total shock.....the hopes and dreams lie on the shoulders of Naniwa, Huk, Ra, Hero & Tyler in my eyes. I personally never liked the design of Colossus, all "early" toss play revolved around it and the formation of a ball.
|
Was mass upgraded ling ever used against protoss before 2011? Was baneling bomb ever used before 2011? Was mass drop ever used against protoss before 2011? Are there buffs to overlord, zerglings and banelings? Nope.avi
Therefore zerg AT THE VERY LEAST tried to be innovative and succeed at doing so.
Now, before you yell me by saying "OMG PROTOSS HAZ N OBANELING< THA RACE IZ DOOMEDDD< U MAD I TELL U." At least try to use warp prism, stargate units, archons, carrier mothership in all your match up, trust me, Ling bling vs toss was just as absurd as any of the units here in 2010.
|
Naniwa is the Protoss hope? He's shown nothing in his gameplay that would indicate such.
|
On September 20 2011 02:55 TolEranceNA wrote:
Was mass upgraded ling ever used against protoss before 2011? Was baneling bomb ever used before 2011? Was mass drop ever used against protoss before 2011? Are there buffs to overlord, zerglings and banelings? Nope.avi
Therefore zerg AT THE VERY LEAST tried to be innovative and succeed at doing so.
Now, before you yell me by saying "OMG PROTOSS HAZ N OBANELING< THA RACE IZ DOOMEDDD< U MAD I TELL U." At least try to use warp prism, stargate units, archons, carrier mothership in all your match up, trust me, Ling bling vs toss was just as absurd as any of the units here in 2010.
Out of all those, only motherships haven't been consistently attempted. Carriers just don't cut it, even against meching terran. Warp prism is at it's infant stages so I'll give you that, but tons of things have been tried at the highest level and failed, and if you don't see it, you don't watch enough starcraft.
|
On September 20 2011 02:36 Roxy wrote:
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame
Meh, every change Blizzard have made has been pretty good so far
KA would be ridiculous if it were still here these days and Voidrays all-ins would be even more dumb with the old Voidrays
People keep saying to buff Toss but looking at the games they lose (mainly PvZ), what exactly do you "buff" without making warp-gate all-ins and the like stupidly strong?
Something as simple as +2 Damage to Stalkers could easily be too much.
The only thing I can think of would be things like unit move speed and tech costs. It is a freaking hard thing to do really, the fact they have gotten this far without breaking anything says quite a lot.
It is easy to say Protoss is weak and needs a buff, any idiot can do that. But actually coming up with a solution...that is a pretty hard thing to do.
Blizzard in general have always done right, I'm just curious to see what they will change really
|
I love how this thread started trying to point out the creative Protoss players, but devolved into this. Personally, I am watching some of Hero's games right now, hoping to see some glimmer of an idea.
|
On September 20 2011 02:50 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:48 Nightrain wrote:On September 20 2011 02:46 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:40 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft. JYP was in eSTRO i think. Hero looks like Bisu+JD and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style. The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play. Your point...? Puzzle was a major disappointment for a first round pick IIRC..and Hero played horribly vs thorzain. He only shows promise in PvZ but just building warp prisms doesn't mean you're a genius. You bring bad arguments since when Thor loses games that he plans out days before the tournament ? Puzzle was like 16 when he was drafted maybe not everybody has terminator nerves like Flash to win starleagues on 16 ? Just watch Hero in his zone on his stream when he is not nervous and tell me that his play is not inspirational. Also Sage Bisuesk PvZ "I like" with smart play all across the board you bring 50'/. winrate blabla well when they don't play htf they are gonna get high winrate bro ? When Code S is crap btw what you gonna say the next day when Puzzle gets 2nd in his group and rolls Kongprime and ryung ? can someone translate? He's basically saying he doesn't like MC and everyone else is better even though their winrates, accomplishments, innovation, etc are inferior.
Well keep defending jokes like MC who forgets to zealot block his ramp twice in a roll when he doesn't get back in code S and drops from the scene who are you gonna support and yes they play in ICCUP but they PLAY each other. I will stop posting here because I don't see any hope for you guys.
|
On September 20 2011 03:07 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:50 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:48 Nightrain wrote:On September 20 2011 02:46 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:40 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft. JYP was in eSTRO i think. Hero looks like Bisu+JD and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style. The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play. Your point...? Puzzle was a major disappointment for a first round pick IIRC..and Hero played horribly vs thorzain. He only shows promise in PvZ but just building warp prisms doesn't mean you're a genius. You bring bad arguments since when Thor loses games that he plans out days before the tournament ? Puzzle was like 16 when he was drafted maybe not everybody has terminator nerves like Flash to win starleagues on 16 ? Just watch Hero in his zone on his stream when he is not nervous and tell me that his play is not inspirational. Also Sage Bisuesk PvZ "I like" with smart play all across the board you bring 50'/. winrate blabla well when they don't play htf they are gonna get high winrate bro ? When Code S is crap btw what you gonna say the next day when Puzzle gets 2nd in his group and rolls Kongprime and ryung ? can someone translate? He's basically saying he doesn't like MC and everyone else is better even though their winrates, accomplishments, innovation, etc are inferior. Well keep defending jokes like MC when he doesn't get back in code S and drops from the scene who are you gonna support and yes they play in ICCUP but they PLAY each other. I will stop posting here because I don't see any hope for you guys.
Ok I'll support players that have actually achieved something and you can keep posting incomprehensible fanboyism :/.
|
On September 20 2011 02:58 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:55 TolEranceNA wrote:
Was mass upgraded ling ever used against protoss before 2011? Was baneling bomb ever used before 2011? Was mass drop ever used against protoss before 2011? Are there buffs to overlord, zerglings and banelings? Nope.avi
Therefore zerg AT THE VERY LEAST tried to be innovative and succeed at doing so.
Now, before you yell me by saying "OMG PROTOSS HAZ N OBANELING< THA RACE IZ DOOMEDDD< U MAD I TELL U." At least try to use warp prism, stargate units, archons, carrier mothership in all your match up, trust me, Ling bling vs toss was just as absurd as any of the units here in 2010. Out of all those, only motherships haven't been consistently attempted. Carriers just don't cut it, even against meching terran. Warp prism is at it's infant stages so I'll give you that, but tons of things have been tried at the highest level and failed, and if you don't see it, you don't watch enough starcraft.
I'm curious what people are supposed to do exactly with a warpprism. Its not like there is a really cost effective harass unit like banelings hellions and such.
dt drop is bad because turrets/spores counter both the prism and the dts
hts don't do enough damage for their cost with decent worker micro.
Zealot drops/warpins are used already, but they just don't kill stuff as fast.
I remember a thread in the strategy forum revolving around collossus drop and archon drop.
Maybe archons are worth a try, they are good vs worker lines, but also quite expensive...
On the other hand I dislike the idea that a player behing outplayed over 20 minutes can just win the game with one succesful drop. Maybe making workers tougher or hellion/ baneling drops more of an investment would be the better approach.
|
On September 20 2011 02:55 TolEranceNA wrote:
Was mass upgraded ling ever used against protoss before 2011? Was baneling bomb ever used before 2011? Was mass drop ever used against protoss before 2011? Are there buffs to overlord, zerglings and banelings? Nope.avi
Therefore zerg AT THE VERY LEAST tried to be innovative and succeed at doing so.
Now, before you yell me by saying "OMG PROTOSS HAZ N OBANELING< THA RACE IZ DOOMEDDD< U MAD I TELL U." At least try to use warp prism, stargate units, archons, carrier mothership in all your match up, trust me, Ling bling vs toss was just as absurd as any of the units here in 2010.
Every single one of stargate units have been tried and used. Mass pheonix? Watch july vs anypro. Stargate expo, watch any MC vs sen games. The fact is archon and stargate units(other than carriers) have been used. Protoss have also been experimenting with warp prism lately even tho their winrate is still bad. Unlike zerg who litterally went roach/hydro/corrupted for 5 month. Protoss has went from 3 gate expand to 1 gate exp to dt expo to stargate expo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
