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On September 20 2011 02:59 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:36 Roxy wrote:
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame Meh, every change Blizzard have made has been pretty good so far KA would be ridiculous if it were still here these days and Voidrays all-ins would be even more dumb with the old Voidrays People keep saying to buff Toss but looking at the games they lose (mainly PvZ), what exactly do you "buff" without making warp-gate all-ins and the like stupidly strong? Something as simple as +2 Damage to Stalkers could easily be too much. The only thing I can think of would be things like unit move speed and tech costs. It is a freaking hard thing to do really, the fact they have gotten this far without breaking anything says quite a lot. It is easy to say Protoss is weak and needs a buff, any idiot can do that. But actually coming up with a solution...that is a pretty hard thing to do. Blizzard in general have always done right, I'm just curious to see what they will change really
Changing Stalkers from 10+4 to 11+3 and +1/+1 per weapon upgrade sounds reasonably sensible to me. It would not change any of the important early game matchups against other races (stalker vs Lings still 4 shots, stalker vs marine still 5 shots), but it would be a decent DPS buff to hold 1/1/1, the Ghost timing and fare a bit better overall. I doubt it would break PvZ as Zergs have basically figured out Blinkstalker balls already and it would enable Protoss to maybe take his third faster.
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On September 20 2011 02:44 RinconH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:31 Micket wrote:On September 20 2011 02:07 RinconH wrote:On September 20 2011 01:53 Micket wrote:On September 20 2011 01:40 sekritzzz wrote:On September 20 2011 01:32 Whitewing wrote:On September 20 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote:
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts). People do allins because infestors and ghosts are ridiculously difficult to stop. Give us our caster power back (not as amulet that was stupid, something else to return Templar to their former glory) and we'll macro all day. Well, protoss mostly do all-ins because it's almost impossible to secure a third base as protoss quickly enough to not be way behind. Zerg drones way faster than protoss, and can expand quicker and easier (yay fast units!). Terran has MULES, so equal base situations favor the terran. Not to mention terran units are just plain more efficient before end-game tech. So yeah, playing a macro game as protoss is folly, because protoss is always behind when it gets to the late game unless they do decisive damage early on. Problem is, protoss units suck unless they're in a big ball working together (which is why it's so hard to secure a third, your whole army has to be together to not suck and all the enemy has to do is hit two places at once), and our early game pressure got nerfed to hell. Protoss was over nerfed. Yea thank you for this. A protoss player trying to out-macro an equally skilled zerg is stupid. Everyone knows a full macro zerg is far superior to any other race in terms of how fast they can get income. Not to mention the options it leaves open for zerg is a strategy game to easily shut down a protoss 3rd while keeping their own. Idra telling protoss players to sit on their ass and out-macro zerg is not enough proof for me that it works(because this seems to be the FOTM, to tell protoss to macro). Either he needs to prove it or i'll take it as another "morrow is a gold player" type comment. If you believe that playing a macro game = sitting in your base building units and doing nothing else, then I'm sorry that your race is so terrible, you literally can't move out on the map without being crushed. 'Macro' Terrans started off by doing a push, build up, push, build up, push style against Zerg, which is terrible. Nowadays, Terrans don't do this at all, they are teching, expanding, doing drops, whilst clearing the creep poking the front whilst being safe vs counter aggession. Is this because Terran is so much better than Protoss that Protoss can't at least try and emulate this? Maybe, but I haven't seen many Protosses besides Hero attempt to move out of the 1a Deathball syndrome/2 base all in syndrome. Protoss players have to relearn what a macro game is and if it turns out, they HAVE to stay in their base in order to macro, then fine P is weak. At least try before you say that though. lol - to paraphrase Jay-Z do you even watch games or do you just skim through them? Plenty of Protoss have tried and failed to find another way. They need to keep trying because the game needs a 3rd race but the deck is currently stacked against them. People seem to think that Zerg was whining for a while then "magically" tried "other ways" and got out of a slump. In fact, what actually happened: 1) they got buffs (infestor), 2) races got nerfs and 3) maps got bigger with more expos + attack paths, allowing them to utilize their racial advantages much more effectively (flanking, speed, mass expanding). TLDR: Zerg players didn't "find new ways" they benefited from balance changes and map changes. Expecting Protoss do the same without structural changes is unlikely. You are wrong. Take away infestors for Zerg, how would Zerg play? NOT Roach Hydra Corrupter. I am talking Spring 2011 where PvZ was at its worst, big maps were hurting Zerg more than ever against Protoss and everyone was doing things wrong. Losing 3rds to voidrays, dying to 6 gates, staying 2 base vs 2 base for a long time, going Hydra vs Robo, thinking roaches are good vs blink stalkers. Builds such as 3 hatch 1 gas and losira timing introduced good Zerg openings which gave them an edge vs FFE and 3 gate fe respectively, and Zerg was favoured ever since WITHOUT infestors. For fuck sake, DRG beat Naniwa with ling bling only, most Korean zergs don't use the stuff that actually was buffed. If every Protoss thought like you and said 'everything is explored, Protoss is simply weak, we HAVE to do 2 base all ins because WE CANNOT BEAT ZERGS OTHERWISE,' then innovation simply wouldn't exist. 1/1/1 is imba, but PvZ probably is not. If you keep telling yourself Zerg cannot be defeated if Protoss decides to take a third base, then I'm sorry for your loss. lol "i'm wrong" and then you list reasons for the zerg resurgence that I listed in my post (Zerg got better because they used the big maps to their advantage i.e. fast 3rd, counter attacks and flanks). Less rage, more thinking please. I'm not writing from my sh:tty low masters, random-playing, perspective. For me, aside from 1-1-1, the game is balanced enough since the opponents I am facing aren't good enough to abuse their racial advantages. I'm writing from the perspective of a viewer who finds tvt boring. I'm not biased (as you are, it seems), I just want to see good games. Zerg wasn't broken (ok, maybe slightly but AOE damage of fungal fixed that), the maps were broken. Once the maps were fixed, Zergs were able to play their race properly. No such horizon exists from Toss.
Sooo, you agree that Zerg didn't need the infestor buff to achieve an advantage in the ZvP matchup, and that they adapted to the maps after playing them for 2 months (Zerg was NOT winning at the time MC won his 2nd GSL),. You agree that Zerg players developed LingBling style, using drop play, using baneling drops, massing ling upgrades, taking fast 3rds, roach ling all ins, hydra busts, anti 2 base tech play, but Protoss is absolutely broken and nothing they do will ever be able to get them out of this slump because they are sooooo weak. Bias much?
Perhaps this is also a map issue and that maps like Taldarim are needed (P has advantage vs Z here), but simply saying your race is SO weak that no amount of getting better at the game will overcome its shortcomings is not clever.
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On September 20 2011 02:59 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:36 Roxy wrote:
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame Meh, every change Blizzard have made has been pretty good so far KA would be ridiculous if it were still here these days and Voidrays all-ins would be even more dumb with the old Voidrays People keep saying to buff Toss but looking at the games they lose (mainly PvZ), what exactly do you "buff" without making warp-gate all-ins and the like stupidly strong? Something as simple as +2 Damage to Stalkers could easily be too much. The only thing I can think of would be things like unit move speed and tech costs. It is a freaking hard thing to do really, the fact they have gotten this far without breaking anything says quite a lot. It is easy to say Protoss is weak and needs a buff, any idiot can do that. But actually coming up with a solution...that is a pretty hard thing to do. Blizzard in general have always done right, I'm just curious to see what they will change really
I totally agree with this.
With the warpgate, it's incredibly hard to buff Protoss without making 6gate too strong.
I believe they are only losing because Protoss players aren't given the opportunity to outplay the opponent. The Warp Prism seems very allin-ish mid game, as they have to send their entire army or at least a very costly portion to "harass".
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On September 20 2011 02:50 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:48 Nightrain wrote:On September 20 2011 02:46 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:40 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:37 Severus_ wrote:On September 20 2011 02:30 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Puzzle was first overall draft pick in the 2009 Mid-Year KeSPA Draft. JYP was in eSTRO i think. Hero looks like Bisu+JD  and still his play and ideas are 10times better then N-gate rush vsX MC style. The others just are pure SC2 new blood that has the mindset to bring champions with smart and rock solid play. Your point...? Puzzle was a major disappointment for a first round pick IIRC..and Hero played horribly vs thorzain. He only shows promise in PvZ but just building warp prisms doesn't mean you're a genius. You bring bad arguments since when Thor loses games that he plans out days before the tournament ? Puzzle was like 16 when he was drafted maybe not everybody has terminator nerves like Flash to win starleagues on 16 ? Just watch Hero in his zone on his stream when he is not nervous and tell me that his play is not inspirational. Also Sage Bisuesk PvZ "I like" with smart play all across the board you bring 50'/. winrate blabla well when they don't play htf they are gonna get high winrate bro ? When Code S is crap btw what you gonna say the next day when Puzzle gets 2nd in his group and rolls Kongprime and ryung ? can someone translate? He's basically saying he doesn't like MC and everyone else is better even though their winrates, accomplishments, innovation, etc are inferior.
I have a strong feeling all the MC anti-fans probably only saw 1 match or so where he destroyed his opponent with timing attacks. Though on TL, timing attack = cheese. Actually, any protoss aggression = cheese. And especially with the constant hints at playing a "macro" game will be the key to these "new hopes". MC doesn't play macro? News to me. Especially the claims to "innovation" credited to these players that MC already has done.
On September 20 2011 02:55 TolEranceNA wrote:
Was mass upgraded ling ever used against protoss before 2011? Was baneling bomb ever used before 2011? Was mass drop ever used against protoss before 2011? Are there buffs to overlord, zerglings and banelings? Nope.avi
Therefore zerg AT THE VERY LEAST tried to be innovative and succeed at doing so.
Now, before you yell me by saying "OMG PROTOSS HAZ N OBANELING< THA RACE IZ DOOMEDDD< U MAD I TELL U." At least try to use warp prism, stargate units, archons, carrier mothership in all your match up, trust me, Ling bling vs toss was just as absurd as any of the units here in 2010.
Is this a troll? Archons get used a lot after their BUFF. Carriers have been done. Motherships are mega-fail every time they are used. Warp prisms might have some potential as White-Ra seems to like them, but I'm not convinced yet. Stargates units? Are you serious? Have you not watched any protoss matches in the last year? They get used a lot in builds. And baneling bombs have been popular for a long time. Artosis eluded to Koreans loving to drop banelings on protoss armies quite a while ago. Every thing about your post suggests you haven't watched any Starcraft. Protoss not innovate? That's laughable.
Zerg at least tried being innovative? A dozen buffs had nothing to do with it at all, right?
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Just let us have warp gate upgrade on robo and stargate. I mean imagine warping in Void Rays and Colossi anywhere :D Jk jk.
On topic: very great write up
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On September 20 2011 02:36 Roxy wrote:
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame
I kinda agree with you.
I hate the excuse Blizzard gave saying "oh Terran is more developed".
Ok, i understand that. But why would you release a game with one race being more "developed" than the other two? If it wasnt an Esport, most people wouldnt care that much,but it huts not just the balance, but viewership (dont you tell me you arent tired of watching endless TVTVTVT) and entertainment.
If people get frustrated on the ladder by losing games, imagine a pro player that picked protoss. Unless they pull a byun and switch to Terran, we will probably have to wait till Legacy of the void. Of course i am exaggerating a little, but watching Protoss is so sad.
Another thing that bothers me is that blizz is always faster to fix stuff when it comes to zerg. Nestea lost to a bunker rush? Give rax 5 more secs. Idra got his ass kicked by BFH? nerf them. Protoss can harass a fast third with void rays? No, sir, you cant have that. Buff spore crawlers.
1/1/1 has over 90% winratio? Wait, the metagame will shift. Infestors are too good? nerf NP, while infested terrans remain untouched and fungal rape everything else.
I wont even talk about ghosts.
Yes, im sad and mad.
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On September 20 2011 03:40 Bashion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:36 Roxy wrote:
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame I kinda agree with you. I hate the excuse Blizzard gave saying "oh Terran is more developed". Ok, i understand that. But why would you release a game with one race being more "developed" than the other two? If it wasnt an Esport, most people wouldnt care that much,but it huts not just the balance, but viewership (dont you tell me you arent tired of watching endless TVTVTVT) and entertainment. If people get frustrated on the ladder by losing games, imagine a pro player that picked protoss. Unless they pull a byun and switch to Terran, we will probably have to wait till Legacy of the void. Of course i am exaggerating a little, but watching Protoss is so sad. Another thing that bothers me is that blizz is always faster to fix stuff when it comes to zerg. Nestea lost to a bunker rush? Give rax 5 more secs. Idra got his ass kicked by BFH? nerf them. Protoss can harass a fast third with void rays? No, sir, you cant have that. Buff spore crawlers. 1/1/1 has over 90% winratio? Wait, the metagame will shift. Infestors are too good? nerf NP, while infested terrans remain untouched and fungal rape everything else. I wont even talk about ghosts. Yes, im sad and mad.
I think even sadder was the consensus amongst Teamliquid that Terran players were dominating in KR but not anywhere else was due to them being better at RTS than their Zerg and Protoss counterparts. Things like 'they are following their idols Boxer and Nada' was hilarious to hear.
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On September 20 2011 03:49 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:40 Bashion wrote:On September 20 2011 02:36 Roxy wrote:
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame I kinda agree with you. I hate the excuse Blizzard gave saying "oh Terran is more developed". Ok, i understand that. But why would you release a game with one race being more "developed" than the other two? If it wasnt an Esport, most people wouldnt care that much,but it huts not just the balance, but viewership (dont you tell me you arent tired of watching endless TVTVTVT) and entertainment. If people get frustrated on the ladder by losing games, imagine a pro player that picked protoss. Unless they pull a byun and switch to Terran, we will probably have to wait till Legacy of the void. Of course i am exaggerating a little, but watching Protoss is so sad. Another thing that bothers me is that blizz is always faster to fix stuff when it comes to zerg. Nestea lost to a bunker rush? Give rax 5 more secs. Idra got his ass kicked by BFH? nerf them. Protoss can harass a fast third with void rays? No, sir, you cant have that. Buff spore crawlers. 1/1/1 has over 90% winratio? Wait, the metagame will shift. Infestors are too good? nerf NP, while infested terrans remain untouched and fungal rape everything else. I wont even talk about ghosts. Yes, im sad and mad. I think even sadder was the consensus amongst Teamliquid that Terran players were dominating in KR but not anywhere else was due to them being better at RTS than their Zerg and Protoss counterparts. Things like 'they are following their idols Boxer and Nada' was hilarious to hear.
That consensus is at the same level of Idras "Protoss players are stupid".
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On September 20 2011 03:49 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:40 Bashion wrote:On September 20 2011 02:36 Roxy wrote:
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame I kinda agree with you. I hate the excuse Blizzard gave saying "oh Terran is more developed". Ok, i understand that. But why would you release a game with one race being more "developed" than the other two? If it wasnt an Esport, most people wouldnt care that much,but it huts not just the balance, but viewership (dont you tell me you arent tired of watching endless TVTVTVT) and entertainment. If people get frustrated on the ladder by losing games, imagine a pro player that picked protoss. Unless they pull a byun and switch to Terran, we will probably have to wait till Legacy of the void. Of course i am exaggerating a little, but watching Protoss is so sad. Another thing that bothers me is that blizz is always faster to fix stuff when it comes to zerg. Nestea lost to a bunker rush? Give rax 5 more secs. Idra got his ass kicked by BFH? nerf them. Protoss can harass a fast third with void rays? No, sir, you cant have that. Buff spore crawlers. 1/1/1 has over 90% winratio? Wait, the metagame will shift. Infestors are too good? nerf NP, while infested terrans remain untouched and fungal rape everything else. I wont even talk about ghosts. Yes, im sad and mad. I think even sadder was the consensus amongst Teamliquid that Terran players were dominating in KR but not anywhere else was due to them being better at RTS than their Zerg and Protoss counterparts. Things like 'they are following their idols Boxer and Nada' was hilarious to hear.
Hilarious but disturbingly often to be annoying.
I hate terran players at the moment, even though it's not their fault. The game is boring, pvx sux at all levels, and sc2 is not what's supposed to be.
I want MC/HerO to have a good race to play, not play katchup every game.
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How can you have a Protoss heroes list when EVERYONE you listed has yet to be tested in the top tier of Code S.
You talk about each player's innovative play or how solid they look, but having a weaker opponent can give that impression.
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Just seems to me that the problem is getting out units fast enough to hold vs both the other races. The Terran ball gets so big so quick compared to Protoss.. The fact that they need Collo or Templars to deal effectively with the bioball just seems like a huge flaw in the way Protoss is designed. They just can't get there quick enough and at the same time have enough gateway units to hold their expansions.
Zergs seems to be able to handle all timings after 2 bases.
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OP was very good read. MC in Code B blew my mind.
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On September 20 2011 03:49 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:40 Bashion wrote:On September 20 2011 02:36 Roxy wrote:
I am disgusted that the ineptitude of the blizzard balance team is affecting the livelihood of these gamers
...for shame I kinda agree with you. I hate the excuse Blizzard gave saying "oh Terran is more developed". Ok, i understand that. But why would you release a game with one race being more "developed" than the other two? If it wasnt an Esport, most people wouldnt care that much,but it huts not just the balance, but viewership (dont you tell me you arent tired of watching endless TVTVTVT) and entertainment. If people get frustrated on the ladder by losing games, imagine a pro player that picked protoss. Unless they pull a byun and switch to Terran, we will probably have to wait till Legacy of the void. Of course i am exaggerating a little, but watching Protoss is so sad. Another thing that bothers me is that blizz is always faster to fix stuff when it comes to zerg. Nestea lost to a bunker rush? Give rax 5 more secs. Idra got his ass kicked by BFH? nerf them. Protoss can harass a fast third with void rays? No, sir, you cant have that. Buff spore crawlers. 1/1/1 has over 90% winratio? Wait, the metagame will shift. Infestors are too good? nerf NP, while infested terrans remain untouched and fungal rape everything else. I wont even talk about ghosts. Yes, im sad and mad. I think even sadder was the consensus amongst Teamliquid that Terran players were dominating in KR but not anywhere else was due to them being better at RTS than their Zerg and Protoss counterparts. Things like 'they are following their idols Boxer and Nada' was hilarious to hear.
Sure it might not be the major reason we see alot of terrans but you can't just disregard the fact that even most BW noobs know of Boxer, Nada and Flash, only Jaedong is close to them in idol size.
Also alot of the top terran SC2 players (MKP and MVP i believe) have outright said that they picked terran based on their fandom of BoxeR.
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i agree with alot of the op intill it got to the "protoss innovaters". i just dont feel like naniwa, and sase are really good enough. indeed they are both very good players but havnt really shown any outstanding potential or skill IMO. hero and sage we all know are absolute ballers and will both at sometime break into code s and have proven that they have the skill to compete against the very best.
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Protoss  I have great faith in Hero though.
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On September 20 2011 04:17 almins wrote:
i agree with alot of the op intill it got to the "protoss innovaters". i just dont feel like naniwa, and sase are really good enough. indeed they are both very good players but havnt really shown any outstanding potential or skill IMO. hero and sage we all know are absolute ballers and will both at sometime break into code s and have proven that they have the skill to compete against the very best.
They haven't proven that at all. Hero has yet to do anything in Korea and sage has gotten 1 all kill, and even now Sage is on a pretty bad losing streak, even when he was just playing ICCUp weeklys.
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Youre delusional if you wrote up a blurb about sase and leave off huk and tassadar
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I can't wait to see Hero and Sage play code A just to see how their dealing with the current situation.
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On September 20 2011 03:15 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:55 TolEranceNA wrote:
Was mass upgraded ling ever used against protoss before 2011? Was baneling bomb ever used before 2011? Was mass drop ever used against protoss before 2011? Are there buffs to overlord, zerglings and banelings? Nope.avi
Therefore zerg AT THE VERY LEAST tried to be innovative and succeed at doing so.
Now, before you yell me by saying "OMG PROTOSS HAZ N OBANELING< THA RACE IZ DOOMEDDD< U MAD I TELL U." At least try to use warp prism, stargate units, archons, carrier mothership in all your match up, trust me, Ling bling vs toss was just as absurd as any of the units here in 2010. Every single one of stargate units have been tried and used. Mass pheonix? Watch july vs anypro. Stargate expo, watch any MC vs sen games. The fact is archon and stargate units(other than carriers) have been used. Protoss have also been experimenting with warp prism lately even tho their winrate is still bad. Unlike zerg who litterally went roach/hydro/corrupted for 5 month. Protoss has went from 3 gate expand to 1 gate exp to dt expo to stargate expo.
Actually the thing is that carriers have also been used (Hong un has used them a couple times in the gsl wich won my <3) and like... the problem really is that blizzard nerfed protoss over and over and over because both zerg and terran wherent CREATIVE. like... see how incredibly strong ghosts are... yet every terran said "no they suck" or look at the infestors... now seen in like every game whit a zerg on it but yet again zergs where always like "no no infestors suck!" so then protoss got nerfed to oblivion...and THEN when the race was nerfed they learned how to use those amazing units and thats whats causing protoss to be so weak... so much nerfs because of the other races just not using their advantages ended up coming back to haunt us.
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EPT
