On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
This is not Brood War. You can keep waiting for that "top player" to show up while the entire legitimacy of the esport crumbles around you. How many people have stopped buying tickets for GSL because of the obvious and stupid imbalance that started months and months ago once innovation hit diminishing returns?
Or you could take a look at the complete joke that protoss everything, units, timings, base defenses, has become and understand why it happened. At what point will you finally admit that the game is broken? It won't be long before lasting damage is done to Starcraft as an esport. Protoss pros have struggled against a steeper and steeper slope and you can already hear the creaks of impending failure from the veterans.
Honestly, I'm impressed with MC's sheer resilience, he's taken blow after blow and continued to fight on. So many of the timing attacks and all-ins that are used today by Protoss in a desperate attempt to squeeze out a win or two, those were his inventions. But I'll say this, if Blizzard doesn't step in soon, pro after pro will crack from the pressure. And once these veteran pros are gone, the damage to Starcraft's image as an excellent competitive game will be very hard to repair.
Fixed.
exactly this, seems like judgment's day is about to hit us all xD, just look at what zerg went trough, they were getting their asses handed because they would not try something else and they would just want to cry their hearts out, now their using strategies that have been in the age since release almost but that noone figured out till a bit ago, protoss isnt in such a bad shape, even though its currently week
Zerg wasn't even close to this bad of shape, and guess what? They got buffed, and toss got nerfed. CONSIDERABLY. Perhaps you should try drawing an accurate comparison?
What if....
Blizzard unnerfed warp gate research time, and added khaydarin amulet back into the game?
On September 20 2011 00:35 Talin wrote: Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other T/Z players have.
Golly, wonder why. Couldn't possibly be the most obvious possibility.
MC's mentality was very short-term benefit oriented. And he did have short term benefit, and now he's going to have to improve drastically and figure out a solid way to play.
MC plays standard plenty of times. Still gets raped, like every other Protoss who plays standard.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
1) BW was never this bad. 2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring.
On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
This is not Brood War. You can keep waiting for that "top player" to show up while the entire legitimacy of the esport crumbles around you. How many people have stopped buying tickets for GSL because of the obvious and stupid imbalance that started months and months ago once innovation hit diminishing returns?
Or you could take a look at the complete joke that protoss everything, units, timings, base defenses, has become and understand why it happened. At what point will you finally admit that the game is broken? It won't be long before lasting damage is done to Starcraft as an esport. Protoss pros have struggled against a steeper and steeper slope and you can already hear the creaks of impending failure from the veterans.
Honestly, I'm impressed with MC's sheer resilience, he's taken blow after blow and continued to fight on. So many of the timing attacks and all-ins that are used today by Protoss in a desperate attempt to squeeze out a win or two, those were his inventions. But I'll say this, if Blizzard doesn't step in soon, pro after pro will crack from the pressure. And once these veteran pros are gone, the damage to Starcraft's image as an excellent competitive game will be very hard to repair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plWnm7UpsXk
Fixed.
exactly this, seems like judgment's day is about to hit us all xD, just look at what zerg went trough, they were getting their asses handed because they would not try something else and they would just want to cry their hearts out, now their using strategies that have been in the age since release almost but that noone figured out till a bit ago, protoss isnt in such a bad shape, even though its currently week
Zerg wasn't even close to this bad of shape, and guess what? They got buffed, and toss got nerfed. CONSIDERABLY. Perhaps you should try drawing an accurate comparison?
what? zerg was in a horrible shape, at least by hearing the zerg players of course ^^
MC's mentality was very short-term benefit oriented. And he did have short term benefit, and now he's going to have to improve drastically and figure out a solid way to play.
MC plays standard plenty of times. Still gets raped, like every other Protoss who plays standard.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
1) BW was never this bad. 2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring.
You can still watch lower tier foreign players, the foreign Terran haven't found out yet how to be abusive as their Korean counterparts.
And foreign Zergs (well idra specifically) still lose to protoss lol
People talk of Zerg getting buffed (2011 buffs that is, 2010 Zerg was clearly too weak), but to say that Zerg without the infestor buff will stilll be going roach hydra corruptor vs Protoss is just retarded. Zerg play has adapted to Protoss 1a deathball so much that actually, Losira and Nestea, our best ZvP players, don't even use the so called imba op infestor in most of their matches.
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts).
On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote: People talk of Zerg getting buffed (2011 buffs that is, 2010 Zerg was clearly too weak), but to say that Zerg without the infestor buff will stilll be going roach hydra corruptor vs Protoss is just retarded. Zerg play has adapted to Protoss 1a deathball so much that actually, Losira and Nestea, our best ZvP players, don't even use the so called imba op infestor in most of their matches.
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts).
Zerg wasn't just buffed. Protoss was severely nerfed also.
On September 20 2011 00:06 Talin wrote: I remember MC being criticized for his approach to the game and playstyle even while he was winning GSLs. I remember Tyler being ridiculed for such comments by fanboys as well.
I also remember those same fanboys dishing out words of wisdom like "MC's timing attack style is the best for SC2, look at his results, he clearly understands the game better than anyone else, such amazing Forcfield micro (-_-)"... no. -_-
Nobody else has done any better, so he clearly does/did understand the game best.
Nobody else has done any better with Protoss, plenty of other players have though. That was in response to the argument that MC was the best player in the world btw.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: It's not about not having a top player or two, it's about every single Protoss having their ass handed to them by every mediocre Terran and Zerg in GSL.
That's just incorrect. It's not every single Protoss, and in most cases you can't claim that their T/Z opponents were less skilled.
On September 20 2011 00:27 Yaotzin wrote: The winrates are sub 30% for goodness sake. It's virtually a two-race game at the moment, which is obviously terrible for it.
There was a similar state in BW PvZ, it's not the end of the world and you shouldn't focus on that so much. These periods come and go and there's nothing you can possibly do about it except wait for top players to pop up.
Tons of cases where all previous results in the matchup lead you to believe the toss is more skilled and he just gets owned. Examples : ( Puzzle vs ryung, MC vs monster, MC vs noblesse etc.) It is the end of the world. The entertainment value of GSL is dead for me. The game is 2 races, and simply by being a protoss you are almost automatically unfavored in the match. And when did another protoss player win 2 GSLs? I must have missed where they did that and did better than MC did.
Puzzle is more skilled than Ryung? Give me a break. They're even at best. MC vs Noblesse isn't much of a skill discrepancy right now either. In fact all of MC's examples you base his skill on his past accomplishments rather than present ability.
At TvP yes Puzzle is much better than Ryung. And if the matchup is indeed imbalanced how do you expect MC to look better than his opponent rofl...simply baffling. You are the type of guy that will simply never admit imbalance no matter what. Even if there are 0 toss in Code S. It is not natural that not even one protoss player is competitive at the top level in such a large scene.
Ryung is horrible, he floated over 1000 ressources against Puzzle off 1 base and queue'd up his barracks full of Marines (which players like TOP or Nada also do and get away with, btw). Of course, he still won thanks to his great skill.
On September 20 2011 01:18 Sandro wrote: You can still watch lower tier foreign players, the foreign Terran haven't found out yet how to be abusive as their Korean counterparts.
And foreign Zergs (well idra specifically) still lose to protoss lol
Yeah it's pretty much all I watch anymore sadly. It bugs me how obvious it is that the players are...kinda bad though :/
Im pretty sure Monster and SeleCT were better players than MC and Alicia. ^^
It's not googlefight where you pit two players against eachother and the better one always wins. MC played terribly in game 2/3, and while overal a better player than Monster, he rightly deserved to lose the games he lost.
Dimaga beat MVP with a baneling bust and beat Nestea with a 6 pool. Is Dimaga better than both of them? No, but he did deserve to win the games he won.
Ryung is horrible, he floated over 1000 ressources against Puzzle off 1 base and queue'd up his barracks full of Marines (which players like TOP or Nada also do and get away with, btw). Of course, he still won thanks to his great skill.
Yes, that's how we judge players skill. He once floated 1000 resources and queued up units so he must be terrible. MC is worse than people in gold league, he didn't put his one zealot on hold position in one game one time. Awful, awful player.
how's nani a protoss innovator, same builds over and over again and QQ when he loses. Haven't seen much of Sage and JYP, but Hero sure looks promising.
On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote: I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts).
People do allins because infestors and ghosts are ridiculously difficult to stop. Give us our caster power back (not as amulet that was stupid, something else to return Templar to their former glory) and we'll macro all day.
On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote: 1) BW was never this bad. 2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring.
1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player).
2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game.
Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat.
No White-Ra? >_> I know he isn't in Korea, but he uses funky strategies and builds that other Protoss (or the vast majority) don't, and still winning to an extent.
On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote: I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts).
People do allins because infestors and ghosts are ridiculously difficult to stop. Give us our caster power back (not as amulet that was stupid, something else to return Templar to their former glory) and we'll macro all day.
Well, protoss mostly do all-ins because it's almost impossible to secure a third base as protoss quickly enough to not be way behind.
Zerg drones way faster than protoss, and can expand quicker and easier (yay fast units!). Terran has MULES, so equal base situations favor the terran. Not to mention terran units are just plain more efficient before end-game tech.
So yeah, playing a macro game as protoss is folly, because protoss is always behind when it gets to the late game unless they do decisive damage early on. Problem is, protoss units suck unless they're in a big ball working together (which is why it's so hard to secure a third, your whole army has to be together to not suck and all the enemy has to do is hit two places at once), and our early game pressure got nerfed to hell.
i feel like blizzard might have overnerfed the Protoss race, they always had like a 2-sided nerf to the PvX matchups.. they buffed the one race and nerfed things on the protoss side, which is the wrong way to go in my opinion. and i still feel like there has to be something done to the marauder damage against stalkers, it's ridonkulous how efficient they can trade against gateway units, considering the much higher cost of gateway units. on the other hand that wouldnt help in PvZ either..
it's just suspicious how protoss are struggling in korea atm, in both matchups. it's not like there was a protoss dominant time before, and there wasnt a single dominant Protoss except for MC in the GSL who was considered a sniper for PvT or PvZ and could maintain his title.
think of alicia, the chosen one.. ppl refered to him as the best PvT player in the world, and then he never could live up to his hype anymore..
think of tester/trickster, they said he has unbeatable PvZ.. and at that time in his first PvZ of the season he got dismantled by losira i think..
where are the guys with the matchup-sniper-winrates like losira, bomber, polt, mvp, nestea, mma, ...??
nowhere, because protoss is too volatile of a race.
and that's the most frustrating thing to watch as a spectator.
On September 20 2011 01:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote: i feel like blizzard might have overnerfed the Protoss race, they always had like a 2-sided nerf to the PvX matchups.. they buffed the one race and nerfed things on the protoss side, which is the wrong way to go in my opinion. and i still feel like there has to be something done to the marauder damage against stalkers, it's ridonkulous how efficient they can trade against gateway units, considering the much higher cost of gateway units. on the other hand that wouldnt help in PvZ either..
it's just suspicious how protoss are struggling in korea atm, in both matchups. it's not like there was a protoss dominant time before, and there wasnt a single dominant Protoss except for MC in the GSL who was considered a sniper for PvT or PvZ and could maintain his title.
think of alicia, the chosen one.. ppl refered to him as the best PvT player in the world, and then he never could live up to his hype anymore..
think of tester/trickster, they said he has unbeatable PvZ.. and at that time in his first PvZ of the season he got dismantled by losira i think..
where are the guys with the matchup-sniper-winrates like losira, bomber, polt, mvp, nestea, mma, ...??
nowhere, because protoss is too volatile of a race.
and that's the most frustrating thing to watch as a spectator.
Its all good. Blizzard buffed Protoss. They gave immortals +1 range increased the warp prism's shield and increased the mothership's acceleration to 1.3
EPT
