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On September 16 2011 05:16 Keifru wrote:
My question is what tool is available to a Zerg for anti-spellcaster purposes?
Just fungalling them to death?
Bleh.
Abusing your mobility and attempt to catch them off guard. Against Protoss at least. I find that my HTs lag behind my army quite often.
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On September 16 2011 05:11 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:07 MageWarden wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 MageWarden wrote:
I didnt think NP needed a change... but i like i can still have a chance vs mech. Also u can NP with flanking armies. You clearly have not seen PvZ lately then... clearly u havnt noticed when u get enough collosi they lol at NP If they get too many Colossi they lose to any random air composition :p Maybe too many players were relying on Infestor as the core of their army vs Toss and Blizz wants to break that? I only use Infestor vs Toss as support for Broodlords, so I'm totally fine with that. Infestor do not have to be THE answer to Colossi.
What other answer is there? broodlords come too late and if you say corruptors i will smack you.
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Now I never ever research NP again cause it's completelly useless. And as I can see 90% of people defending this change are T or P players so that's just funny lol. No zerg can defend this change cause that complete nonsense.
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On September 16 2011 05:16 perestain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 04:37 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:36 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:35 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:34 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:32 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:28 humbre wrote:On September 16 2011 04:26 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 16 2011 04:25 humbre wrote:
QQ wins again Terran always win even if they dont qq  because they have twice as many talented players as other races Because they have the most cost efficient units. Because they don't have to react to game situations aside from defending attacks. Because their mechanics don't require thoughts. They go through the motions of their mechanics and that typically wins their games. Show me a Terran player making a conscious, spur of the moment making a decision. Protoss is the same way. there's no choices made. You choose a build, you execute it, and you play standard shit from there and you have a solid win rate. The only way to lose is to make drastic mistakes. Zerg makes conscious, game breaking decisions from minute 1 of every single game. Every drone you make is a risk. Show me protoss or terran risks? Every expo you take is a possible loss to a mechanical, robotic timing. Zerg has zero cost or supply effective units; lings are the closest, but with the massive amounts of splash damage (tanks hellions colossus ht) available at every stage of the game, lings become cost inefficient in any sort of straight up engagement. Roaches are supply inefficient and maxed roach-based army compositions are 100% inefficient. Hydras are a joke. Ultras are a joke. Broodlords are not time/cost efficient. Infestors are the closest thing we have to late game cost efficiency and that's being cut into oblivion here. Get off your high horse, theres nothing but biased opinions in this wall of text. Rofl prove me wrong thanks Show me a effective opening for pvz which doesn't put them miles behind and safe to all ins? Show me the same thing for Zerg? Speedling expand. Safe and efficient against everything from protoss plus it gets free mapcontrol and easy scouting, so zerg can react perfectly to anything from there if its played correctly. The fact that protoss cannot react much ingame but has to execute something planned in advance and just hope for errors from the zerg opponent is not exactly making a case for zerg here. Also zerg units are way more cost-efficient than protoss. Just look at any pro replay and check the ressources lost tab after an engagement. This is pretty eye-opening. Protoss is forced to do way favorable trades with perfect forcefields everytime to be able to keep up, and if just one engagement goes in zergs favor its practically over, even if the game is usually played for 10 more minutes and casters tend to hype it up still, despite the obvious outcome. Now we better not even start comparing the viability of harassment for making comebacks.
You are behind against any 1 gate expand and early expand build, nice try.
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On September 16 2011 05:17 TolEranceNA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 04:39 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:37 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 16 2011 04:34 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:32 ThatGuy89 wrote:
infestor being the 'only decent unit zerg has' means alot of game revolve around them so any nerf is gonna force people to cry.
but no one, NO ONE, can say the infestor was fine as it was. Destiny has shown just how good they can be, practically winning games with them alone. Personally, like alot of people on this forum, i have no idea about how to balance this game. But, unlike alot of people on this forum, im able to admit that. Too many people hate on blizzard when all they are trying to do is fix it. So they've changed their minds a few times, so what? thats good if you ask me. Means they know when they've made mistakes and arent afraid to go back on themselves.
This game is only a year old, there are gonna be alot of changes made and reverted and brought back and whatever and theres also gonna be alot of changes that people wont agree with or understand. Just get on with it and see what happens. The funny part is that all zerg units are decent to great (except maybe hydra, which is still great situationally), but if you listen to some people all zerg units apparently die the second anything touches them and deal about 2 damage. Hydra is great situationally........ Sir what are you smoking man? You can definitely argue about other unit, but hydra is just terrible Against double stargate play coupled with infestors and as a two hatch nydus hydra bust on Tal'darim after a protoss goes FFE into stargate, or in certain low econ ZvP where resources are tight and colossi tech is too risky to tech to, since hydras cost less than stalkers. What are you smoking? Sorry that not every unit for your race can be massed in all situations? Woah the hostility, calm down, no one is going to shoot your family. Do note, you stated 2 specific situation that can only occur on 2 maps - xel naga and taldarim, pretty much you just proved my point that hydra is terrible in ALL situation Thanks!
Fix'd that for you.
There is absolutely no reason to ever use hydra's, except for ZvZ
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I heard David's son played Protoss and David never wanted him to lose a PvZ ever again.
i agree with this change, If blizz makes corruptors viable.
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It's already VERY hard to pull off NP with 9 range, given that colossus have 9 range and tanks have 14 (which will probably be near the thors!)
Uhh No...it's pretty damn easy to do. Especially if your not stupid and send your army with your infestors...
The infestor is spellcaster, it's not supposed to be the bulk of your damage, it's like storm it's supposed to help you kill them faster but with no other units (which you usually make lings which don't do shit) you shouldnt win fights with pure infestor.
Send in roaches or whatever then infestors and if they don't focus with tanks or collsi then you can easily pull off NP's
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On September 16 2011 05:17 N1k0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:11 clusen wrote:On September 16 2011 05:07 MageWarden wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 MageWarden wrote:
I didnt think NP needed a change... but i like i can still have a chance vs mech. Also u can NP with flanking armies. You clearly have not seen PvZ lately then... clearly u havnt noticed when u get enough collosi they lol at NP If they get too many Colossi they lose to any random air composition :p Maybe too many players were relying on Infestor as the core of their army vs Toss and Blizz wants to break that? I only use Infestor vs Toss as support for Broodlords, so I'm totally fine with that. Infestor do not have to be THE answer to Colossi. What other answer is there? broodlords come too late and if you say corruptors i will smack you.
Hell, get Mutas if they have a shit ton of Colossi and limited AA. Mutas alone will own it.
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On September 16 2011 05:18 TolEranceNA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:16 perestain wrote:On September 16 2011 04:37 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:36 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:35 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:34 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:32 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:28 humbre wrote:On September 16 2011 04:26 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 16 2011 04:25 humbre wrote:
QQ wins again Terran always win even if they dont qq because they have twice as many talented players as other races Because they have the most cost efficient units. Because they don't have to react to game situations aside from defending attacks. Because their mechanics don't require thoughts. They go through the motions of their mechanics and that typically wins their games. Show me a Terran player making a conscious, spur of the moment making a decision. Protoss is the same way. there's no choices made. You choose a build, you execute it, and you play standard shit from there and you have a solid win rate. The only way to lose is to make drastic mistakes. Zerg makes conscious, game breaking decisions from minute 1 of every single game. Every drone you make is a risk. Show me protoss or terran risks? Every expo you take is a possible loss to a mechanical, robotic timing. Zerg has zero cost or supply effective units; lings are the closest, but with the massive amounts of splash damage (tanks hellions colossus ht) available at every stage of the game, lings become cost inefficient in any sort of straight up engagement. Roaches are supply inefficient and maxed roach-based army compositions are 100% inefficient. Hydras are a joke. Ultras are a joke. Broodlords are not time/cost efficient. Infestors are the closest thing we have to late game cost efficiency and that's being cut into oblivion here. Get off your high horse, theres nothing but biased opinions in this wall of text. Rofl prove me wrong thanks Show me a effective opening for pvz which doesn't put them miles behind and safe to all ins? Show me the same thing for Zerg? Speedling expand. Safe and efficient against everything from protoss plus it gets free mapcontrol and easy scouting, so zerg can react perfectly to anything from there if its played correctly. The fact that protoss cannot react much ingame but has to execute something planned in advance and just hope for errors from the zerg opponent is not exactly making a case for zerg here. Also zerg units are way more cost-efficient than protoss. Just look at any pro replay and check the ressources lost tab after an engagement. This is pretty eye-opening. Protoss is forced to do way favorable trades with perfect forcefields everytime to be able to keep up, and if just one engagement goes in zergs favor its practically over, even if the game is usually played for 10 more minutes and casters tend to hype it up still, despite the obvious outcome. Now we better not even start comparing the viability of harassment for making comebacks. You are behind against any 1 gate expand and early expand build, nice try.
If you drone only you aren't behind, if you delay his nexus against 1gatenex you're ahead.
Zergs always seem to think they're behind if they aren't droning with every single larva :/
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On September 16 2011 05:15 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:11 oogieogie wrote:On September 16 2011 05:07 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible. Who in the blizzard balance team can beat the average high masters player 1v1? none of them. why do you assume they know anything about the balance of this game?i'm asking you again, if neural parasite isn't necessary to beat protoss and terran and the top zergs don't use it, why the fuck is it getting nerfed They talk with pros, watch games themselves,and take community feedback on changes so I am sure they know the balance of this game. I still really hate this change though since now infestors will just get feedbacked when they NP so it won't be as good vs them, and anything that encourages colossi play I really hate. Don't worry colossi are still only good for timing pushes. The answer to collosi deathballs was never infestors so an infestor nerf doesn't change it. Show nested quote +
I do agree that the infestor is too versatile right now (less so now with the range nerf), but I don't see how Zerg could win vs Protoss if they didn't build any infestors having the abilities they have right now.
The best ZvPers in the world (Nestea and Losira, easily) never use infestors.
I really should watch more of Nestea/Losiras games, but how do they deal with like 3+ colossi? Do they actually get corruptors or just never let P get so many colossi (though i have no idea how they would do that). I have no idea why anyone would rather have a no massive units insted of 2 less range.
ps: the david GM as random is pretty sweet.
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On September 16 2011 05:17 Alpina wrote:
Now I never ever research NP again cause it's completelly useless. And as I can see 90% of people defending this change are T or P players so that's just funny lol. No zerg can defend this change cause that complete nonsense.
So basically any nerf to NP will make it completely useless and no one can defend it? Would you rather have no massive or less range. Either way it's getting nerfed.
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Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed.
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On September 16 2011 05:17 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:16 Keifru wrote:
My question is what tool is available to a Zerg for anti-spellcaster purposes?
Just fungalling them to death?
Bleh. Abusing your mobility and attempt to catch them off guard. Against Protoss at least. I find that my HTs lag behind my army quite often.
Fun fact, High Templar are the same speed as Thors.
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On September 16 2011 05:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:18 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 16 2011 05:16 perestain wrote:On September 16 2011 04:37 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:36 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:35 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:34 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:32 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:28 humbre wrote:On September 16 2011 04:26 TolEranceNA wrote:[quote] Terran always win even if they dont qq because they have twice as many talented players as other races Because they have the most cost efficient units. Because they don't have to react to game situations aside from defending attacks. Because their mechanics don't require thoughts. They go through the motions of their mechanics and that typically wins their games. Show me a Terran player making a conscious, spur of the moment making a decision. Protoss is the same way. there's no choices made. You choose a build, you execute it, and you play standard shit from there and you have a solid win rate. The only way to lose is to make drastic mistakes. Zerg makes conscious, game breaking decisions from minute 1 of every single game. Every drone you make is a risk. Show me protoss or terran risks? Every expo you take is a possible loss to a mechanical, robotic timing. Zerg has zero cost or supply effective units; lings are the closest, but with the massive amounts of splash damage (tanks hellions colossus ht) available at every stage of the game, lings become cost inefficient in any sort of straight up engagement. Roaches are supply inefficient and maxed roach-based army compositions are 100% inefficient. Hydras are a joke. Ultras are a joke. Broodlords are not time/cost efficient. Infestors are the closest thing we have to late game cost efficiency and that's being cut into oblivion here. Get off your high horse, theres nothing but biased opinions in this wall of text. Rofl prove me wrong thanks Show me a effective opening for pvz which doesn't put them miles behind and safe to all ins? Show me the same thing for Zerg? Speedling expand. Safe and efficient against everything from protoss plus it gets free mapcontrol and easy scouting, so zerg can react perfectly to anything from there if its played correctly. The fact that protoss cannot react much ingame but has to execute something planned in advance and just hope for errors from the zerg opponent is not exactly making a case for zerg here. Also zerg units are way more cost-efficient than protoss. Just look at any pro replay and check the ressources lost tab after an engagement. This is pretty eye-opening. Protoss is forced to do way favorable trades with perfect forcefields everytime to be able to keep up, and if just one engagement goes in zergs favor its practically over, even if the game is usually played for 10 more minutes and casters tend to hype it up still, despite the obvious outcome. Now we better not even start comparing the viability of harassment for making comebacks. You are behind against any 1 gate expand and early expand build, nice try. If you drone only you aren't behind, if you delay his nexus against 1gatenex you're ahead. Zergs always seem to think they're behind if they aren't droning with every single larva :/
Because you will be lol. Nestea vs MVP -> overreaction not enough droning ->???-> loss
Of course, i am sure you are a intelligent individual that didn't mean 100% of larva, because you need overlords too
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On September 16 2011 05:22 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:17 Alpina wrote:
Now I never ever research NP again cause it's completelly useless. And as I can see 90% of people defending this change are T or P players so that's just funny lol. No zerg can defend this change cause that complete nonsense. So basically any nerf to NP will make it completely useless and no one can defend it? Would you rather have no massive or less range. Either way it's getting nerfed.
Both nerfs makes NP useless. And that's not just a nerf those both are very huge nerfs. In best case scenario you can use them now vs. mass thors if terran is stupid enough to have 10 thors and nothing more.
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I can't believe Blizzard caved to Zerg whining again. The NP change was great with it not effecting massive.
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On September 16 2011 05:17 TolEranceNA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 04:39 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:37 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 16 2011 04:34 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:32 ThatGuy89 wrote:
infestor being the 'only decent unit zerg has' means alot of game revolve around them so any nerf is gonna force people to cry.
but no one, NO ONE, can say the infestor was fine as it was. Destiny has shown just how good they can be, practically winning games with them alone. Personally, like alot of people on this forum, i have no idea about how to balance this game. But, unlike alot of people on this forum, im able to admit that. Too many people hate on blizzard when all they are trying to do is fix it. So they've changed their minds a few times, so what? thats good if you ask me. Means they know when they've made mistakes and arent afraid to go back on themselves.
This game is only a year old, there are gonna be alot of changes made and reverted and brought back and whatever and theres also gonna be alot of changes that people wont agree with or understand. Just get on with it and see what happens. The funny part is that all zerg units are decent to great (except maybe hydra, which is still great situationally), but if you listen to some people all zerg units apparently die the second anything touches them and deal about 2 damage. Hydra is great situationally........ Sir what are you smoking man? You can definitely argue about other unit, but hydra is just terrible Against double stargate play coupled with infestors and as a two hatch nydus hydra bust on Tal'darim after a protoss goes FFE into stargate, or in certain low econ ZvP where resources are tight and colossi tech is too risky to tech to, since hydras cost less than stalkers. What are you smoking? Sorry that not every unit for your race can be massed in all situations? Woah the hostility, calm down, no one is going to shoot your family. Do note, you stated 2 specific situation that can only occur on 2 maps - xel naga and taldarim, pretty much you just proved my point that hydra is terrible in most situation Thanks!
I didn't prove any point of yours actually. I originally made a statement that it is good in certain situations while agreeing that it's bad in most, then you stated it's not great situationally at all and I gave the situations in which it is good. It being bad outside of those situations is completely irrelevant, and you're making a small comment I made into your soapbox for crying about hydras.
Also stargate play can happen on any map but the hydra bust is best on Tal'darim, though it can be used on other large macro tourney maps like Terminus. Protoss can also commit off one stargate to something like large quantities of voidrays as their tech choice, and hydras serve as a deterrent to that type of play. And the low-econ situation without colossi tech available can happen in any map. I've also seen a reactive ling/hydra all-in work against many great protoss players.
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On September 16 2011 05:22 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:17 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:16 Keifru wrote:
My question is what tool is available to a Zerg for anti-spellcaster purposes?
Just fungalling them to death?
Bleh. Abusing your mobility and attempt to catch them off guard. Against Protoss at least. I find that my HTs lag behind my army quite often. Fun fact, High Templar are the same speed as Thors.
Well, I think Terrans would agree Thors are damn slow :D
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On September 16 2011 05:24 Pajegetc wrote:
I can't believe Blizzard caved to Zerg whining again. The NP change was great with it not effecting massive.
They probably still want the ability to be used insted of being completely useless.
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On September 16 2011 05:18 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:17 N1k0 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:11 clusen wrote:On September 16 2011 05:07 MageWarden wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 MageWarden wrote:
I didnt think NP needed a change... but i like i can still have a chance vs mech. Also u can NP with flanking armies. You clearly have not seen PvZ lately then... clearly u havnt noticed when u get enough collosi they lol at NP If they get too many Colossi they lose to any random air composition :p Maybe too many players were relying on Infestor as the core of their army vs Toss and Blizz wants to break that? I only use Infestor vs Toss as support for Broodlords, so I'm totally fine with that. Infestor do not have to be THE answer to Colossi. What other answer is there? broodlords come too late and if you say corruptors i will smack you. Hell, get Mutas if they have a shit ton of Colossi and limited AA. Mutas alone will own it.
You cant fight with mutas unless you have big numbers of them, a protoss army will always have stalkers that can deal with mutas easily. You cant go mutaling like before because you will die to 6-7 gate timings.
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EPT
