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On September 16 2011 05:07 tkRage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible. Who in the blizzard balance team can beat the average high masters player 1v1? none of them. why do you assume they know anything about the balance of this game? i'm asking you again, if neural parasite isn't necessary to beat protoss and terran and the top zergs don't use it, why the fuck is it getting nerfed
Why not take a look at the PvZ% rate: Pretty sure Protoss is getting shit on mega hard.
Honestly, its bull shit. Ok, NP is a great ability for taking out things like Thors/Colossi/etc. but frankly, when you can't even get near Infestors with Blink because of 2349023409459345 lings blocking you, and FG preventing you from blinking/moving, then how do you beat it?
Don't even say split up your army. You want to give lings a perfect chance to surround you?
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Bait and switch, imo.
Blizzard takes a spell they originally publicly purposed for taking control of massive units, make it unable to target massive, read: useless, let us all whine for a while, and go "Oh, our bad, here's a lesser nerf", when in reality that was the planned nerf the whole time, but they had to hit us with something retarded first to make this nerf look palatable.
It's already VERY hard to pull off NP with 9 range, given that colossus have 9 range and tanks have 14 (which will probably be near the thors!)
With 7 range this spell is still fairly unusable. Sure, if there's a lone colossus or thor with no support off by themselves this is still usable to, I guess make that unit dance for 15s...but in a real situation it's just not feasible for use with 7 range, given 9 range colossi, 14 range tanks, 7 range feedback and 9 range EMP.
Who the hell was complaining about NP anyway?? FG and iTerran were the problems, right??
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On September 16 2011 05:07 MageWarden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:05 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 MageWarden wrote:
I didnt think NP needed a change... but i like i can still have a chance vs mech. Also u can NP with flanking armies. You clearly have not seen PvZ lately then... clearly u havnt noticed when u get enough collosi they lol at NP
If they get too many Colossi they lose to any random air composition :p
Maybe too many players were relying on Infestor as the core of their army vs Toss and Blizz wants to break that?
I only use Infestor vs Toss as support for Broodlords, so I'm totally fine with that. Infestor do not have to be THE answer to Colossi.
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On September 16 2011 05:07 tkRage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible. Who in the blizzard balance team can beat the average high masters player 1v1? none of them. why do you assume they know anything about the balance of this game?i'm asking you again, if neural parasite isn't necessary to beat protoss and terran and the top zergs don't use it, why the fuck is it getting nerfed
They talk with pros, watch games themselves,and take community feedback on changes so I am sure they know the balance of this game.
I still really hate this change though since now infestors will just get feedbacked when they NP so it won't be as good vs them, and anything that encourages colossi play I really hate.
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What I like is it deals with the problem (colossi being controlled) without gutting zerg against early terran mech pressure.
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On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible.
Who needs to play perfectly? Every single game I have played against a half decent masters toss or terran will make HT's/ghosts and deal with the infestors pretty effectively. People make it seem like emp'ing/feedbacking is such a god damn hard thing to do.....
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On September 16 2011 05:07 MageWarden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:05 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 MageWarden wrote:
I didnt think NP needed a change... but i like i can still have a chance vs mech. Also u can NP with flanking armies. You clearly have not seen PvZ lately then... clearly u havnt noticed when u get enough collosi they lol at NP
No they don't.
Zergs going ling/Infestor spend gas on upgrades and Infestors. So guess what? Here comes 10 Infestors.
You want me to get 10+ Colossi?
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Alright I think this thread should get some more on topic content from now on.
+ Show Spoiler [tkRage temp banned] +
tkRage was just temp banned for 1 week by heyoka.
That account was created on 2011-04-06 05:51:00 and had 181 posts.
Reason: "lol. I thought for a minute how to reply to this and all I could come up with is lol. Protoss is so easy its sad." You were already banned for balance whining. Why would you do it again? Stop.
Honestly this was a good move by Blizzard. Clearly completely removing the ability to target Massive units is weird when the skill is analyzed (Massive units are by far the best choice as targets). The current change only makes it harder to grab the juicy units from within the shadows and turn them against their friends. There's a slight risk involved of getting your Infestors sniped off (or a considerable risk vs long ranged units like Sieged Tanks / Collosus). 1.4 will be an excellent patch 
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On September 16 2011 05:10 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:04 KimJongChill wrote:
I don't think this is a good change. I agree but this is a much fairer compromise than before. I'll take this before Blizzard shits on us any further. God the balance team is like an abusive absent parent. They miss our birthday then buy us a carton of cigarettes for Christmas. Then they hit us.
my parents stole my amulet and my flux vanes!
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On September 16 2011 05:11 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:07 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible. Who in the blizzard balance team can beat the average high masters player 1v1? none of them. why do you assume they know anything about the balance of this game?i'm asking you again, if neural parasite isn't necessary to beat protoss and terran and the top zergs don't use it, why the fuck is it getting nerfed They talk with pros, watch games themselves,and take community feedback on changes so I am sure they know the balance of this game. I still really hate this change though since now infestors will just get feedbacked when they NP so it won't be as good vs them, and anything that encourages colossi play I really hate.
+ david kim is grandmasters (or was) playing random
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Drop the bomb, soften the blow. Well played, Blizzard, one wonders if this was their end-game plan all along.
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On September 16 2011 05:07 tkRage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible. Who in the blizzard balance team can beat the average high masters player 1v1? none of them. why do you assume they know anything about the balance of this game? i'm asking you again, if neural parasite isn't necessary to beat protoss and terran and the top zergs don't use it, why the fuck is it getting nerfed
last time i checked dayvie aka David fucking Kim is in grandmasters and he is one of the leader balance designers for sc2(and hes random)
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/715900/1/dayvie/
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I still think the NP change is too soon. Of course, it's way better than the previous nerf they had in mind, but I would have liked to see how the other changes played out before changing anything more.
I do agree that the infestor is too versatile right now (less so now with the range nerf), but I don't see how Zerg could win vs Protoss if they didn't build any infestors having the abilities they have right now. So it's more of a fundamental design problem than a balance problem in my eyes. Add how corruptors are very situational and how the window where the hydra is actually useful is extremely small (like 2 or 3 minutes, just after lair and before colossus or storm), the amount of different strategies Zerg can use is extremely low. So I'm not having high hopes for SC2 before HotS....
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On September 16 2011 05:11 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:07 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible. Who in the blizzard balance team can beat the average high masters player 1v1? none of them. why do you assume they know anything about the balance of this game?i'm asking you again, if neural parasite isn't necessary to beat protoss and terran and the top zergs don't use it, why the fuck is it getting nerfed They talk with pros, watch games themselves,and take community feedback on changes so I am sure they know the balance of this game. I still really hate this change though since now infestors will just get feedbacked when they NP so it won't be as good vs them, and anything that encourages colossi play I really hate.
Don't worry colossi are still only good for timing pushes. The answer to collosi deathballs was never infestors so an infestor nerf doesn't change it.
I do agree that the infestor is too versatile right now (less so now with the range nerf), but I don't see how Zerg could win vs Protoss if they didn't build any infestors having the abilities they have right now.
The best ZvPers in the world (Nestea and Losira, easily) never use infestors.
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On September 16 2011 05:07 tkRage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible. Who in the blizzard balance team can beat the average high masters player 1v1? none of them. why do you assume they know anything about the balance of this game? i'm asking you again, if neural parasite isn't necessary to beat protoss and terran and the top zergs don't use it, why the fuck is it getting nerfed
rotfl.
david kim is GM playing random
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My question is what tool is available to a Zerg for anti-spellcaster purposes?
Just fungalling them to death?
Bleh.
Also, now Infestors are less useful vsT who use siege tanks in their compositon. 7vs13, from my eyeballing, an extra siege tank shell that needs to get soaked to rush and coup de tat the line.
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I have no idea which one of the nerfs is better or worse. With only 7 range it feels very unsafe to NP anything. Even if NP cant be used on masssive units, you stilll could use it on immortals and tanks from safer 9 range. Both feel pretty hard nerfs, quess we´ll see after the patch...
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On September 16 2011 04:37 tkRage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 04:36 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:35 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:34 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:32 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:28 humbre wrote:On September 16 2011 04:26 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 16 2011 04:25 humbre wrote:
QQ wins again Terran always win even if they dont qq because they have twice as many talented players as other races Because they have the most cost efficient units. Because they don't have to react to game situations aside from defending attacks. Because their mechanics don't require thoughts. They go through the motions of their mechanics and that typically wins their games. Show me a Terran player making a conscious, spur of the moment making a decision. Protoss is the same way. there's no choices made. You choose a build, you execute it, and you play standard shit from there and you have a solid win rate. The only way to lose is to make drastic mistakes. Zerg makes conscious, game breaking decisions from minute 1 of every single game. Every drone you make is a risk. Show me protoss or terran risks? Every expo you take is a possible loss to a mechanical, robotic timing. Zerg has zero cost or supply effective units; lings are the closest, but with the massive amounts of splash damage (tanks hellions colossus ht) available at every stage of the game, lings become cost inefficient in any sort of straight up engagement. Roaches are supply inefficient and maxed roach-based army compositions are 100% inefficient. Hydras are a joke. Ultras are a joke. Broodlords are not time/cost efficient. Infestors are the closest thing we have to late game cost efficiency and that's being cut into oblivion here. Get off your high horse, theres nothing but biased opinions in this wall of text. Rofl prove me wrong thanks Show me a effective opening for pvz which doesn't put them miles behind and safe to all ins? Show me the same thing for Zerg?
Speedling expand. Safe and efficient against everything from protoss plus it gets free mapcontrol and easy scouting, so zerg can react perfectly to anything from there if its played correctly.
The fact that protoss cannot react much ingame but has to execute something planned in advance and just hope for errors from the zerg opponent is not exactly making a case for zerg here.
Also zerg units are way more cost-efficient than protoss. Just look at any pro replay and check the ressources lost tab after an engagement. This is pretty eye-opening. Protoss is forced to do way favorable trades with perfect forcefields everytime to be able to keep up, and if just one engagement goes in zergs favor its practically over, even if the game is usually played for 10 more minutes and casters tend to hype it up still, despite the obvious outcome. Now we better not even start comparing the viability of harassment for making comebacks.
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NP wasn't really the problem with infestor. The only time infestor ended up looking op'd w/ NP, was when the zerg player was already in such a huge lead that it didn't even matter, and could afford that huge number of infestors. NP wasn't really a game changer.... Mostly because if infestors were NPing it meant they couldn't cast fungal during their time, immoblized for time during NP, also were easily sniped. So you were effectively exchanging 1 infestor for a few seconds of collossus/thor/immortal/archon.
The nerf really needed to targeted Fungal Growth, the "hold" position part of the spell was too good, perhaps make it a slow, rather than a hold?
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On September 16 2011 04:39 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 04:37 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 16 2011 04:34 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:32 ThatGuy89 wrote:
infestor being the 'only decent unit zerg has' means alot of game revolve around them so any nerf is gonna force people to cry.
but no one, NO ONE, can say the infestor was fine as it was. Destiny has shown just how good they can be, practically winning games with them alone. Personally, like alot of people on this forum, i have no idea about how to balance this game. But, unlike alot of people on this forum, im able to admit that. Too many people hate on blizzard when all they are trying to do is fix it. So they've changed their minds a few times, so what? thats good if you ask me. Means they know when they've made mistakes and arent afraid to go back on themselves.
This game is only a year old, there are gonna be alot of changes made and reverted and brought back and whatever and theres also gonna be alot of changes that people wont agree with or understand. Just get on with it and see what happens. The funny part is that all zerg units are decent to great (except maybe hydra, which is still great situationally), but if you listen to some people all zerg units apparently die the second anything touches them and deal about 2 damage. Hydra is great situationally........ Sir what are you smoking man? You can definitely argue about other unit, but hydra is just terrible Against double stargate play coupled with infestors and as a two hatch nydus hydra bust on Tal'darim after a protoss goes FFE into stargate, or in certain low econ ZvP where resources are tight and colossi tech is too risky to tech to, since hydras cost less than stalkers. What are you smoking? Sorry that not every unit for your race can be massed in all situations?
Woah the hostility, calm down, no one is going to shoot your family.
Do note, you stated 2 specific situation that can only occur on 2 maps - xel naga and taldarim, pretty much you just proved my point that hydra is terrible in most situation Thanks!
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EPT
