|
On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed.
Considering you don't have to research FG, I'll probably take the Infestor.
|
On September 16 2011 05:12 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:07 MageWarden wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 MageWarden wrote:
I didnt think NP needed a change... but i like i can still have a chance vs mech. Also u can NP with flanking armies. You clearly have not seen PvZ lately then... clearly u havnt noticed when u get enough collosi they lol at NP No they don't. Zergs going ling/Infestor spend gas on upgrades and Infestors. So guess what? Here comes 10 Infestors. You want me to get 10+ Colossi?
chill out bro. and if u have 4+collosi u can quickly focusfire down the collo that gets NPed first. Albeit it requires micro, enough collosi do stop infestors if u cant NP all the collo quick enough. One of the standard response to ling/infestor is more collosi
|
On September 16 2011 05:18 TolEranceNA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:16 perestain wrote:On September 16 2011 04:37 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:36 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:35 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:34 HydraLF wrote:On September 16 2011 04:32 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:28 humbre wrote:On September 16 2011 04:26 TolEranceNA wrote:On September 16 2011 04:25 humbre wrote:
QQ wins again Terran always win even if they dont qq  because they have twice as many talented players as other races Because they have the most cost efficient units. Because they don't have to react to game situations aside from defending attacks. Because their mechanics don't require thoughts. They go through the motions of their mechanics and that typically wins their games. Show me a Terran player making a conscious, spur of the moment making a decision. Protoss is the same way. there's no choices made. You choose a build, you execute it, and you play standard shit from there and you have a solid win rate. The only way to lose is to make drastic mistakes. Zerg makes conscious, game breaking decisions from minute 1 of every single game. Every drone you make is a risk. Show me protoss or terran risks? Every expo you take is a possible loss to a mechanical, robotic timing. Zerg has zero cost or supply effective units; lings are the closest, but with the massive amounts of splash damage (tanks hellions colossus ht) available at every stage of the game, lings become cost inefficient in any sort of straight up engagement. Roaches are supply inefficient and maxed roach-based army compositions are 100% inefficient. Hydras are a joke. Ultras are a joke. Broodlords are not time/cost efficient. Infestors are the closest thing we have to late game cost efficiency and that's being cut into oblivion here. Get off your high horse, theres nothing but biased opinions in this wall of text. Rofl prove me wrong thanks Show me a effective opening for pvz which doesn't put them miles behind and safe to all ins? Show me the same thing for Zerg? Speedling expand. Safe and efficient against everything from protoss plus it gets free mapcontrol and easy scouting, so zerg can react perfectly to anything from there if its played correctly. The fact that protoss cannot react much ingame but has to execute something planned in advance and just hope for errors from the zerg opponent is not exactly making a case for zerg here. Also zerg units are way more cost-efficient than protoss. Just look at any pro replay and check the ressources lost tab after an engagement. This is pretty eye-opening. Protoss is forced to do way favorable trades with perfect forcefields everytime to be able to keep up, and if just one engagement goes in zergs favor its practically over, even if the game is usually played for 10 more minutes and casters tend to hype it up still, despite the obvious outcome. Now we better not even start comparing the viability of harassment for making comebacks. You are behind against any 1 gate expand and early expand build, nice try.
Just no. 14/14 puts you even with a 3gate expo, and you can 100% cancel a 1gate FE if you want to. There's actually no way for protoss to hold onto a 1 gate nexus against Z if Z wants to force a cancel anyways. Just because you don't make pure drone til 40 doesn't mean you are behind.
|
oh noes they banned tkrage, I like trolls =(
|
On September 16 2011 05:24 Pajegetc wrote:
I can't believe Blizzard caved to Zerg whining again. The NP change was great with it not effecting massive.
And what makes you so sure that they didn't change it based on data they received from the PTR?
"Hey man, we have tons of interesting data from the PTR to talk about"
"Fuck that, let's go to our forums and see what we should change"
No...
|
Like Destiny already suggested in his stream this change is an absolute bullshit.
Ghost and Templars have a range of 10/9 and 8 respectively on their abilities and the Infestor now has 7... WTF Blizzard?! I mean, NP was perfectly fine, they should have increased the energy cost of Infested Terrans instead.
If they don't want us to use NP anymore, why don't they just remove it from the game. I'm sorry Blizzard but I don't want to suicide my Infestors to a group of Colo, Ghosts or Templars, all of the stated out range them...
|
On September 16 2011 03:49 R0YAL wrote:
Better course of action. But wheres the "FG now slows units instead of eliminating all micro entirely" change?
It's coming in the patch where they change force fields to do the same.
|
On September 16 2011 05:20 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:15 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 05:11 oogieogie wrote:On September 16 2011 05:07 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:03 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 04:59 tkRage wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 04:56 tkRage wrote:
Look people. The bottom line is that there aren't any effective unit compositions that don't include infestors. We've tried them. All of 'em. Name a unit comp that Zerg hasn't tried. Until the other compositions become viable, you can't nerf infestor to the ground like this or it destroys the balance of the game.
That's my last post here. Nestea/Losira rape Protoss players in their sleep while making zero infestors. Good change - shouldn't make mech OP v Z or anything but helps against Toss which obviously needs it. There are no good Korean protoss players other than MC who is not in top shape and only won his two GSLs through absurdly greedy builds that were unpunished like 1gate nexus to colossus tech without adding more gates. nestea losira zvz finals only happened because neither of them faced a good terran player in the entire season; byun and ensnare?? You mean there are just no good protoss players whatsoever in the world, since none of them can beat Nestea or Losira who don't even use infestors, let alone neural parasite. so why again are we nerfing neural? because shitty players can't deal with it effectively? great balance policy Because Blizzard sees it as imbalanced? You act like protoss and terrans only lose because they aren't 100% mechanically perfect with map hacks, but apparently if you play "perfectly" assuming Nestea and Losira do, you don't need even need neural parasite against any protoss player in the world, so why are you whining so much? If you DO need to use it then Blizzard thinks that is imbalanced. Like I said it has now become a situational spell instead of a great all-around spell, but you're acting like ZvP has now become almost impossible. Who in the blizzard balance team can beat the average high masters player 1v1? none of them. why do you assume they know anything about the balance of this game?i'm asking you again, if neural parasite isn't necessary to beat protoss and terran and the top zergs don't use it, why the fuck is it getting nerfed They talk with pros, watch games themselves,and take community feedback on changes so I am sure they know the balance of this game. I still really hate this change though since now infestors will just get feedbacked when they NP so it won't be as good vs them, and anything that encourages colossi play I really hate. Don't worry colossi are still only good for timing pushes. The answer to collosi deathballs was never infestors so an infestor nerf doesn't change it.
I do agree that the infestor is too versatile right now (less so now with the range nerf), but I don't see how Zerg could win vs Protoss if they didn't build any infestors having the abilities they have right now.
The best ZvPers in the world (Nestea and Losira, easily) never use infestors. I really should watch more of Nestea/Losiras games, but how do they deal with like 3+ colossi? Do they actually get corruptors or just never let P get so many colossi (though i have no idea how they would do that). I have no idea why anyone would rather have a no massive units insted of 2 less range. ps: the david GM as random is pretty sweet.
Yep corruptors. The infamous roach/hydra/corruptor combination, slaying the best Protoss around. Go figure.
Usually they put the toss under such pressure that 3 colossi isn't possible anyways.
|
On September 16 2011 05:25 N1k0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:18 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:17 N1k0 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:11 clusen wrote:On September 16 2011 05:07 MageWarden wrote:On September 16 2011 05:05 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:02 MageWarden wrote:
I didnt think NP needed a change... but i like i can still have a chance vs mech. Also u can NP with flanking armies. You clearly have not seen PvZ lately then... clearly u havnt noticed when u get enough collosi they lol at NP If they get too many Colossi they lose to any random air composition :p Maybe too many players were relying on Infestor as the core of their army vs Toss and Blizz wants to break that? I only use Infestor vs Toss as support for Broodlords, so I'm totally fine with that. Infestor do not have to be THE answer to Colossi. What other answer is there? broodlords come too late and if you say corruptors i will smack you. Hell, get Mutas if they have a shit ton of Colossi and limited AA. Mutas alone will own it. You cant fight with mutas unless you have big numbers of them, a protoss army will always have stalkers that can deal with mutas easily. You cant go mutaling like before because you will die to 6-7 gate timings.
I was referring to the part with absurd amounts of Colossi. The more Colossi Protoss have, the fewer Stalkers they get obviously.
Edit: LOL @ all the Zergs bitching. "We wantz to stomp Protoss all dai in every tournament and ladder, wtf Blizzard1?!?!1?!!"
|
I'm confused by the fact that they won't test this change out on the PTR but just go live with it.
This could backfire bad. Well, at least this could help with Protoss' bad win rates against Zerg.
Thors in TvZ though... lol.
|
If Blizzard dont want NP on Mothership, why dont they just fucking say "Doesn't work on Mothership" instead of all this 'Massive' bs
|
Word on the street is that Neural Parasite is a weak barely useable spell that is easily countered and only noobs lose to, and that nerfing it in any way will totally break zerg.
Wut.
On September 16 2011 05:22 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:17 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:16 Keifru wrote:
My question is what tool is available to a Zerg for anti-spellcaster purposes?
Just fungalling them to death?
Bleh. Abusing your mobility and attempt to catch them off guard. Against Protoss at least. I find that my HTs lag behind my army quite often. Fun fact, High Templar are the same speed as Thors.
And hydralisks are the same speed as every other (non-zerg) ground unit, but no one cares about that.
|
On September 16 2011 05:23 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:22 Numy wrote:On September 16 2011 05:17 Alpina wrote:
Now I never ever research NP again cause it's completelly useless. And as I can see 90% of people defending this change are T or P players so that's just funny lol. No zerg can defend this change cause that complete nonsense. So basically any nerf to NP will make it completely useless and no one can defend it? Would you rather have no massive or less range. Either way it's getting nerfed. Both nerfs makes NP useless. And that's not just a nerf those both are very huge nerfs. In best case scenario you can use them now vs. mass thors if terran is stupid enough to have 10 thors and nothing more.
Maybe that's what they going for? Infestors already counter almost every unit type in the game which is kinda silly(Much like Ghost) so I assume blizzard want to tone down one side of the infestor.
|
On September 16 2011 05:22 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:17 Alpina wrote:
Now I never ever research NP again cause it's completelly useless. And as I can see 90% of people defending this change are T or P players so that's just funny lol. No zerg can defend this change cause that complete nonsense. So basically any nerf to NP will make it completely useless and no one can defend it? Would you rather have no massive or less range. Either way it's getting nerfed.
it's still a fairly strange nerf to make. I'm not sure why they decided to mess with a spell that was easily dealt with in the first place. Now the Z will have to hope and pray that the T/P don't have ht's, thermal lance, blink stalkers, ghosts, siege tanks, the ability to micro slightly as well as them.
I'm not saying this nerf makes it useless but it wasn't really needed lol. I wasn't having any trouble with NP before... it was the fungal and burrowed infested spam that I disliked. Infestors are relatively weak units. Even with a supporting army...
|
When you think about it - it is quite the same nerf wrapped around differently.
Ignoring the air massive units and NP.
Speaking about thors and collossi - the ground massive and highest priority targets for NP.
-Thors have 7 range;
-Collossi have 9;
-NP has delay.
Combination of these means that you cant NP any of these units - you would lose your infestors before the hook reaches the target.
It is worth mentioning that NP on tanks, immortals and everything else just got 2 times more difficult.
Roach & NP combination vs stalker-immortal just gets invalid strat.
|
Russian Federation266 Posts
On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed.
I can't really imagine a situation where I'd take HT over infestor. Something with a lot of tanks probably.
|
On September 16 2011 05:24 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:24 Pajegetc wrote:
I can't believe Blizzard caved to Zerg whining again. The NP change was great with it not effecting massive. They probably still want the ability to be used insted of being completely useless.
If would of still been useful against void rays(common late game transition to deal with broodlords) and immortals(common against mass roach builds). I don't see how the spell would of been completely useless in ZvP.
|
On September 16 2011 05:27 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:23 Alpina wrote:On September 16 2011 05:22 Numy wrote:On September 16 2011 05:17 Alpina wrote:
Now I never ever research NP again cause it's completelly useless. And as I can see 90% of people defending this change are T or P players so that's just funny lol. No zerg can defend this change cause that complete nonsense. So basically any nerf to NP will make it completely useless and no one can defend it? Would you rather have no massive or less range. Either way it's getting nerfed. Both nerfs makes NP useless. And that's not just a nerf those both are very huge nerfs. In best case scenario you can use them now vs. mass thors if terran is stupid enough to have 10 thors and nothing more. Maybe that's what they going for? Infestors already counter almost every unit type in the game which is kinda silly(Much like Ghost) so I assume blizzard want to tone down one side of the infestor.
"Counter" on paper only. No good toss will allow to NP their army, same with terran..
|
This is pretty much making NP unusable, without taking it out of the game. It's like Blizzard saying "wanna NP Massive units? OK, here you go, good luck!"
|
On September 16 2011 05:26 aquanda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 03:49 R0YAL wrote:
Better course of action. But wheres the "FG now slows units instead of eliminating all micro entirely" change? It's coming in the patch where they change force fields to do the same.
FF can be negated FG is you can't. So i dont see the similarity where fungal take 1 F to entrap several units, FF takes about 3 PERFECT FF or for the average player 5-7 FF
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
