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On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
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I like how half the people in this thread say how easy it is for players to fall out of Code S, but then the other half say that it's incredibly hard for players to fall from Code S and then reference weaker Code S players as their examples. I think people need to stop and think when they talk about the weaker Code S players, many of these players have SIGNIFICANTLY better results then HuK, hell, people still for some reason seem to think that Polt is terrible and overrated.
People also blame the system for players like Fruitdealer being able to stay in for so long, it's not the system fault, it's the players that lose to hims fault.... It's like saying the only reason Bomber won MLG is because it favours seeded pool players, yes it does favour them, but the reason he won is because he stomped everyone.
As someone said, ofcourse MLG generates more excitement, it's a 3day event every few months whilst GSL is a regular TV show, it's like comparing a single TV show episode to a new movie release at cinema's - it's apple and oranges.
The personality point; how do people define personality? The only "personality" I've seen out of any of the foreign players at MLG is Idra not shaking Crunchers hand and pulling the finger to MC. The korean's display 1000x more personality when they win important games(MC, Boxer, Nada, DRG, Bomber just to name a few) at MLG then any of the foreign players. Hell, the only foreign player to win an MLG this year responded with "its ok" when he was asked how it felt to win - people think that is hilarious that naniwa responded that way, but a korean saying anything other than "that guy is terrible im the best!" is considered not having a personality.
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I don't really like this idea, I think it's much better the way it is, compared to what you propose: none of your arguments seem too compelling, and there's plenty of reason not to do this. Code A does indeed act exactly like this, as a rigorous qualifier, and the way the system is set up in the end helps viewers. It rewards constant high levels of skill: in your example you complain that you might have to wait a whole month (not even that long...) to see a new player in Code S, and you'd rather that a few days of above average performance gets someone into Code S. Well, so someone has a unexpectedly good day, sprints into Code S....only to be eliminated, after taking up one of the spots. It's much better for the viewer if the player has had to show a sustained high level of skill, because it takes out all this lucky business which would only result in sub-par players getting seeded into Code S immediately, incrediably unfair to the hard working players fighting to get into Code S.
Your suggestion of an open tourney and Code A really shouldn't coexist together, as they aim to do opposite things. Instead your proposal should be to alter Code A to your new short term format, but apart from making it more likely for bad players to get into Code S, as mentioned above, this would also take away all the Code A matches we could watch, so really that doesn't work either.
Your point about leniency and the unforgiving nature of Code S is quite true, although I would argue the new up-down system allowing only the bottom performer of the group to go down to the up-downs is rather lenient. Still, I would much rather have strictness: how many times have you seen people complain about players being seeded in MLG who have for a long time not deserved such a spot. We get a higher level of players, and consequently games, in general thanks to this. All this soldifies Code S as the pinnacle of SC2 gaming, and that's obviously what GOM where going for when they set up the league.
The truth is you can't please everyone, and while many people may indeed prefer MLG for various reasons, the fact is that GSL and MLG are different tournaments by nature, personality and by design, and honestly, it's best for us viewers this way too: if you prefer the short intense bursts of MLG activity, with all the chaos, then you can watch MLG. If you prefer a more regular, less intensive schedule, with the highest level of gaming in SC2, then you can watch the GSL. Trying to make each tournament the same as each other really achieves nothing except to rob people who would rather watch one of the two.
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the format is stale because:
The skewed race ratio in favour of terrens, which we may have to put up with until other races catch up in the meta (and hellions are nerfed derp).
The massive amounts of data that teams can gather on players, especially recently successful players, from replays as well as the time given between each match allows for some serious snipe tactics to be put into practice that can result in poor looking cheeses and boring play (which i'd do in the same position).
The reason MLG seems so much more interesting is due to:
The nature of the 3 day format means a reduced level of preparedness for players against others players, thus resulting in some much more dynamic and mechanic/build based play which is better than specific player focused timings and cheeeeeses.
The atmosphere is so much less sterile than the tiny crowd in the gom studio (seriously the applause sounds like there's 5 people there).
Being a brit means i can watch all leagues at reasonable times (though I do think 4am is a reasonable time to watch starcraft), however I prefer watching in the evening/at night when an MLG would be on rather than the morning which is when GSL is on.
The fact that MLG is finished within 3 days means that there is a sense of constant excitement followed by a feeling of completion, GSL doesn't really have either since the league goes on a decent while and seems to start all over again with no huge development of storyline.
Having said all that, I enjoy GSL when I catch it, even the tvt... so I dunno why I said all this :D
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On September 08 2011 12:34 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:27 Rabiator wrote:
The GSL in total is getting boring, because they are trying to provide more and more and more games. The total available drama is limited however - up&down matches and the first round of code A with some of the big names - and spreading it out over too much video is bad. Thats where MLG and other weekend tournaments have a real advantage. They are FOCUSED and its easy to get on to it and watch the whole drama. The GSL is like a soap opera you missed a few episodes of ... you are lacking a piece of the information of what has happened.
The new GSTL format is bad IMO, because it spreads the drama over too much footage.
The newly started showing of code A qualifiers is good, because we get to see the big names who fail to qualify and the format is still a bit loose compared to a GSL show. Who cares about drama? If this was a drama contest I suppose foreigners would win? Koreans are more passionate about Starcraft II than any foreigner anyway. MKP cried when he won against MC in the Super Tournament. Every time a Korean loses you feel their sadness and shock. Foreigners just talk trash and rage. 3 day tournaments just stress the shit out of everyone maybe that's why you think its more drama.
The drama is "will Huk win?" (or whoever your favorite player is) ... and if he does you have to wait for a week to see if he wins the next match. At MLG you only have to wait an hour or whatever to get the next episode (even though you might not get to see that match).
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MLG also has a stagnated ranking system. People who won ages ago are still seeded in pool play. So I think Code S qualification is out of the question.
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On September 08 2011 12:39 snafoo wrote:
I like how half the people in this thread say how easy it is for players to fall out of Code S, but then the other half say that it's incredibly hard for players to fall from Code S and then reference weaker Code S players as their examples. I think people need to stop and think when they talk about the weaker Code S players, many of these players have SIGNIFICANTLY better results then HuK, hell, people still for some reason seem to think that Polt is terrible and overrated.
People also blame the system for players like Fruitdealer being able to stay in for so long, it's not the system fault, it's the players that lose to hims fault.... It's like saying the only reason Bomber won MLG is because it favours seeded pool players, yes it does favour them, but the reason he won is because he stomped everyone.
As someone said, ofcourse MLG generates more excitement, it's a 3day event every few months whilst GSL is a regular TV show, it's like comparing a single TV show episode to a new movie release at cinema's - it's apple and oranges.
The personality point; how do people define personality? The only "personality" I've seen out of any of the foreign players at MLG is Idra not shaking Crunchers hand and pulling the finger to MC. The korean's display 1000x more personality when they win important games(MC, Boxer, Nada, DRG, Bomber just to name a few) at MLG then any of the foreign players. Hell, the only foreign player to win an MLG this year responded with "its ok" when he was asked how it felt to win - people think that is hilarious that naniwa responded that way, but a korean saying anything other than "that guy is terrible im the best!" is considered not having a personality.
i agree with the 'fault of the players for getitng stomped' but i dont see why the system needs to facilitate that 'safe zone' for the players either, you play to win, if you don't win, you need to deal with the penalties of losing. the 3rd-in-the-group zone is meaningless and lets players that don't have the mettle to win code S thrive. 'what if they get better' you say? then they shan't need to worry about not having a safe zone either.
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On September 08 2011 12:42 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:34 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On September 08 2011 12:27 Rabiator wrote:
The GSL in total is getting boring, because they are trying to provide more and more and more games. The total available drama is limited however - up&down matches and the first round of code A with some of the big names - and spreading it out over too much video is bad. Thats where MLG and other weekend tournaments have a real advantage. They are FOCUSED and its easy to get on to it and watch the whole drama. The GSL is like a soap opera you missed a few episodes of ... you are lacking a piece of the information of what has happened.
The new GSTL format is bad IMO, because it spreads the drama over too much footage.
The newly started showing of code A qualifiers is good, because we get to see the big names who fail to qualify and the format is still a bit loose compared to a GSL show. Who cares about drama? If this was a drama contest I suppose foreigners would win? Koreans are more passionate about Starcraft II than any foreigner anyway. MKP cried when he won against MC in the Super Tournament. Every time a Korean loses you feel their sadness and shock. Foreigners just talk trash and rage. 3 day tournaments just stress the shit out of everyone maybe that's why you think its more drama. The drama is "will Huk win?" (or whoever your favorite player is) ... and if he does you have to wait for a week to see if he wins the next match. At MLG you only have to wait an hour or whatever to get the next episode (even though you might not get to see that match).
Um, yeah. That means there's actually less drama because you barely get to know each player. Imagine someone watching MLG for the first time. They don't know anyone. Do you think they will also see Huk the same way you do? In GSL, they get people into the player's world with the documentaries and interviews. Foreigners winning is only one part of the drama.
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it's because they happen too often. If there were only 2 or 3 per year like OSL/MSL, it would be more interesting. But all GOM cares about is money so i doubt that will happen
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On September 08 2011 12:40 hoepie wrote:
the format is stale because:
The skewed race ratio in favour of terrens, which we may have to put up with until other races catch up in the meta (and hellions are nerfed derp).
The massive amounts of data that teams can gather on players, especially recently successful players, from replays as well as the time given between each match allows for some serious snipe tactics to be put into practice that can result in poor looking cheeses and boring play (which i'd do in the same position).
The reason MLG seems so much more interesting is due to:
The nature of the 3 day format means a reduced level of preparedness for players against others players, thus resulting in some much more dynamic and mechanic/build based play which is better than specific player focused timings and cheeeeeses.
The atmosphere is so much less sterile than the tiny crowd in the gom studio (seriously the applause sounds like there's 5 people there).
Being a brit means i can watch all leagues at reasonable times (though I do think 4am is a reasonable time to watch starcraft), however I prefer watching in the evening/at night when an MLG would be on rather than the morning which is when GSL is on.
The fact that MLG is finished within 3 days means that there is a sense of constant excitement followed by a feeling of completion, GSL doesn't really have either since the league goes on a decent while and seems to start all over again with no huge development of storyline.
Having said all that, I enjoy GSL when I catch it, even the tvt... so I dunno why I said all this :D
This is how I feel too. A 3 day tournament is much more exciting then a month long league season. Especailly at 4 am, especially with knowing who the grand prize winner will be after the RO8 and especially knowing that the finals are going to be a 4-0 cakewalk that lasts an hour or so.
Rinse/repeat
The western scene is just so much more exciting then the Korean scene.
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On September 08 2011 12:37 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. Why don't you go and do brain surgery? You can go have fun with making no mistakes and with no luck involved.
It's different for viewers, who can see everything unfolding during the match, which is why luck can sometimes be really frustrating to watch. I like the luck, though, it definitely makes things interesting, even if sometimes it can make me rage.
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On September 08 2011 12:49 blabber wrote:
it's because they happen too often. If there were only 2 or 3 per year like OSL/MSL, it would be more interesting. But all GOM cares about is money so i doubt that will happen
I prefer it is on all the time.... pretty sure alot of people like it too. People don't have to watch seasons if they find it boring... I don't think GOM runs a tournament every single month just to make money.... lol.
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On September 08 2011 12:49 blabber wrote:
it's because they happen too often. If there were only 2 or 3 per year like OSL/MSL, it would be more interesting. But all GOM cares about is money so i doubt that will happen
whoa whoa whoa. they spend a lot of money on production for each season. that's really insulting you know. every player dreams of making more money, and if scbw had the chance i think they wouldve added more tournaments.
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On September 08 2011 12:50 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:40 hoepie wrote:
the format is stale because:
The skewed race ratio in favour of terrens, which we may have to put up with until other races catch up in the meta (and hellions are nerfed derp).
The massive amounts of data that teams can gather on players, especially recently successful players, from replays as well as the time given between each match allows for some serious snipe tactics to be put into practice that can result in poor looking cheeses and boring play (which i'd do in the same position).
The reason MLG seems so much more interesting is due to:
The nature of the 3 day format means a reduced level of preparedness for players against others players, thus resulting in some much more dynamic and mechanic/build based play which is better than specific player focused timings and cheeeeeses.
The atmosphere is so much less sterile than the tiny crowd in the gom studio (seriously the applause sounds like there's 5 people there).
Being a brit means i can watch all leagues at reasonable times (though I do think 4am is a reasonable time to watch starcraft), however I prefer watching in the evening/at night when an MLG would be on rather than the morning which is when GSL is on.
The fact that MLG is finished within 3 days means that there is a sense of constant excitement followed by a feeling of completion, GSL doesn't really have either since the league goes on a decent while and seems to start all over again with no huge development of storyline.
Having said all that, I enjoy GSL when I catch it, even the tvt... so I dunno why I said all this :D This is how I feel too. A 3 day tournament is much more exciting then a month long league season. Especailly at 4 am, especially with knowing who the grand prize winner will be after the RO8 and especially knowing that the finals are going to be a 4-0 cakewalk that lasts an hour or so. Rinse/repeat The western scene is just so much more exciting then the Korean scene.
that's a really ignorant comment i must say. let me summarize MLG in your tone. Koreans get top 6. foreigners qq.
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On September 08 2011 06:05 Blazinghand wrote:I think Code S is specifically designed to be exclusive and to require tournament wins or runner-upping to qualify. This seems like a much more "Code A" kind of thing to do, and Code A does have a qualifying tournament anyways. The current ways to get into Code S: - Win Code A
- Do well in Code A, do well in up/downs
- Win MLG
Code S is supposed to be a tournament only amongst the best of the best, champions fighting champions. I think for this reason gomtv has specifically avoided doing what you suggested.
The thing is, compared to the OSL and MSL, it's really fucking impossible to get into Code S. It's WAY TOO protective of its members (only the bottom 8 out of 32 drop out? Seriously?) And you wonder why there's no new blood? Wonder why there's none of these stars that are brutalizing the GSTL for their teams like DRG and others? The Code B "monsters" that artosis often talks about? It's because there aren't enough new spots opening up in the tournaments. 8 new spots open up for Code S each season, and 16 for Code A. The OSL is run a lot more like Code A (but with group stages that don't suck rather than more luck-based elimination brackets) except exchange "Code B to qualify" with "have a pro-gamer license to qualify"
The korean scene needs to let new blood into their tournaments more. The MSL and OSL both have 50% new qualifiers each season. It's a system that works. Code S gets 0 - they only get people we just saw win or do well in Code A. Code A gets all the new blood, and we get some really fucking amazing matches in it. This shouldn't be of any surprise to anyone.
Then you look at the prize money for Code S - you get paid a similar amount for dropping out 0-2 in code S as you do for winning Code A. Also ridiculous.
Eliminate the current Code A/S system and have a single tournament. Don't seed so damn many players (16 is good, though.) Have more group stages and less elimination stages, to reduce the number of elimination matches happening early in the tournament that should be in the finals. If MVP and Nestea meet in a RO16 group stage, they'll likely both get through, and 2 lesser players are defeated, while MVP and Nestea can't face each other again until the finals. More group stages = more likely to have awesome finals because you split up strong players onto opposite sides of the brackets.
Edit: oh, one more thing - if, for example, you have 16 players seeded into the round of 32, why not broadcast the final matches of the qualifier (to make up for lost broadcast rounds) so we can SEE more of the new blood that artosis talks about so much? These are matches like DRG vs Hero, after all! :D
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I started watching GSL for protoss inspiration. With next season only having 5 of 32 toss in code S, it is hard to keep tuning in. TvT style of play is kind slow but does have its moments. Next season could have 20 of 32 terrans in code S. Unless you love watching TvT's you could be in for a boring season.
Like people stated, here are the problems with the GSL
- To frequent
- Lack of race diversity
- Studio to sterile and boring
- Not many foreigners
- Broadcasted at late hours
- Format not exciting "code A being sorta meaningless etc."
- Miss matches
- Player specific builds "timings that are used to beat your specific opponent"
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On September 08 2011 12:54 Pyre wrote:
I started watching GSL for protoss inspiration. With next season only having 5 of 32 toss in code S, it is hard to keep tuning in. TvT style of play is kind slow but does have its moments. Next season could have 20 of 32 terrans in code S. Unless you love watching TvT's you could be in for a boring season.
Like people stated, here are the problems with the GSL
- To frequent
- Lack of race diversity
- Studio to sterile and boring
- Not many foreigners
- Broadcasted at late hours
- Format not exciting "code A being sorta meaningless etc."
- Miss matches
- Player specific builds "timings that are used to beat your specific opponent"
race representation can be blamed on the metagame not the tournament. just so you know.
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GSL is just too long. Its a 32 player pool stretched out over the course of a month. Most other major tournaments happen over a weekend. The action is much more fast paced and rapidly builds up, whereas the GSL is mostly grueling TvT that feels like work to be a fan of.
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On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
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i bet if there was mlg/dh every night you would get sick of that too. just saying....
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EPT
