Some ideas. Im hearing alot from people that they think GSL is getting boring and they are watching MLG more and more cuz they like its environment / atmosphere better. They cannot put their finger on why, but they just are more entertained by MLG.
I know GSL isnt to blame for this. Its hard to create a perfect system. Im just coming up with some ideas.... I think adding more of a "new blood, its anyones game, any dog can have his day" element to the GSL could do it some good.
MLG for example has a open tournament anyone can compete in, and it is possible for someone from the open tournament to win the entire thing. I think that creates a element of mystique for the entire tournament that code S may benefit from trying to copy.
I think the best way to solve the code S/A "no new blood" problem some people have with it is something like the following.
Gomtv can create a 10 dollar entry online KR-server double-elimination open-tournament every season to prevent scrubs from signing up. Next, the top 16 from this tournament are not code S however they get to be seeded into the code s tournament to create a interesting "new blood" element.
What happens is code S will have its NORMAL ro32 action take place, with 16 players advancing to the ro16.
Next, those 16 players will each face off in a bo3 against one of the 16 "new blood" players". this will cause the tournament to in a sense have two "round of 32" 's. in this sense, it will make each gsl code s tournament have a chance where its completely possible for a "new face" to beat mvp in the second round of the tournament and knock him out and make it interesting.
Or you could make it so instead of top16, the top8 players from the open are seeded, and the top8 play an extra bo5 with the top8 placers.
How you determine if/how any of these new faces get code S could be difficult. In my opinion id say make it so they cant get code S in order to keep Code S feeling special. If a "new face" wins the gsl he gets to become code S, however make it so code A/MLG are still the only other ways to obtain code S (in order to make code a still be important)
This means if someone who isnt code S wants to compete in gsl code S tournaments, he has to get code s through code a, or he can pay 10 dollars and compete in the open tournament every season and try his best to get top16.
This is just one idea i had im sure there are plenty possible ideas out there.
Do you think Code S platform could stand to create some improvements so GSL can be more entertaining to the average viewer?
On September 08 2011 06:04 aisight wrote: How would a qualifier bracket that puts people into Code S be fair in any way to the people who have to go through the massive qualifier bracket for Code A? The lack of entertainment in GSL is the system itself, which allows players to determine their own seeding, causing the most entertaining matches to happen far before the finals as well as incidentally creating very one-sided finals.
Im thinking to make it fair, allow ANYONE from code A to compete in this open tournament.
Make it so this open tournament lasts a few days and finishes before code A qualifiers start.
If you make top16, you know you are in the code S tournament so you drop out of attempting Code A.
If you dont make top16, you can tryout for code A of that season to try to get code s that way.
However, this could create a situation where players view the open tournament as the easier way into the code S tournament.... but i dont think so, it would simply mean if your good enough to place top16 in the open your good enough to be seeded into code s, however if your not good enough to make top16 then you gotta go through code a like everyone else.
On September 08 2011 06:17 MK4512 wrote: EVENTUALLY, Code S will weed out every weak player, and it will become the true pinacle of competition... Just wait for a bit.
I agree that the current code S system will work perfectly.... over time... possibly a long time.... Actually i believe code S is already clearly the pinnacle of competition.
But i also think the game and peoples skill and whats possible today is a highly volatile aspect of starcraft 2 as an esport.
Any tournament that has more of a "its any mans game, any dog can have his day" element such as seeding players from an open bracket, will allow more of this volatility to flow through into its tournament.
And i guess at the end of the day its just my opinion as to how good it is to be letting this volatility flow. Some people may think its less entertaining to let the volatility into the tournament. I feel it is more entertaining.
On September 08 2011 08:08 spicyredcurry wrote: SO you want a qualifier to insert new blood into code S?
I believe they have something like that called code A... and that has a qualifier aswell. Making Code A double elimination would be cool but that would not be feasible.
You are right in a way. with the current system, code a could be seen as a season-long qualifier to get into the next code S tournament...
I think the main possible area of improvement i see in all of this is, lets say some dude out there is extremely skilled after a few months of practice and has a few weeks of incredible genius in sc2 for some unknowable reason.
I this this is EXTREMELY hypothetical, but hear me out.
If this dude wanted to get into code S he would need to spend 1 entire season doing code A, then he would have to get far enough into code A in that season to get into up/down. Then he would have to win the up/down and he could be in code S.
So he would have to do the season-long code a which is like a qualifiers to get into the next code S
(( And winning the up/down seems kind of like a silly format given that its BO1's between top players... but thats another discussion. ))
I guess im trying to say, if this dude somehow has a flash of genius right now id wanna see that dude in the code S tournament right now, not next season. With a type of open seeding element added to the tournament, the same dude could theoretically win code S in a single season without having to wait.
however, i agree my scenario is very hypothetical... but i believe sc2 has a high level of volatility that increasing the "new blood" level of a code s tournament could give Code S even more of a highly competitive mystique because the code S players would have to be superior to eachother and be superior to any bright stars that are materializing at that very moment.
And lets say one of these bright stars does good in code A, gets into code S, then during that season loses and goes to up/down and goes back into code A. Such a person would be doing a entire codeA season to qualify for one codeS season, then after dropping out he has to do ANOTHER codeA SEASON AGAIN to qualify for 1 more code S season. And if such a bright star has a flash of genius yet again he no longer has the "chance" to win code s for that season because his only option now is to spend another season trying to qualify again.
Im not saying the dude doesnt deserve to drop out for losing his games, im just saying such a system is not too forgiving in the time-department for many pro players out there.
Also heres another way of looking at it. if a pro wants to qualify into code S he has to spend a entire long season doing code A, and then its not even a garuntee. So a pro spends like a 50 day Code A season of playing and doesnt even know after that whether or not his chance is 100% of being in the next code S tournament.
With my idea, a pro would ONLY need to spend a few days playing that open tournament, and if he places high enough in the open tournament he knows after only a few days whether or not he 100% has a spot in the code s tournament or not. Giving pro players such a quick way (however a highly competitive way) to spend a few days playing to give them a 100% yes/no answer of "you are seeded in the next code s tournament" is a great way of increasing the chances of pros from around the world trying it out.
On September 08 2011 11:32 slothpants wrote: I might also add that if you are more interested in MLG because GSL is full of "no name" players, that's because you don't know them. I would hazard a guess that Korea, the primary viewing audience, knows them quite well.
Or, instead of complaining about that fact, be proactive and submit some articles to TL ABOUT the new Code A/Code S players so that viewers become more invested in the players. If you haven't noticed, that is a large part of the GSL/MLG exchange - getting known internationally. Before the last MLG, I doubt many people would have said Coca could compete against the people he beat. Now you know him. Same goes for Puma at NASL (or whichever he won first), etc.
Just because you are exposed to specific players more often, doesn't mean that the people you don't know aren't interesting or exciting.
The "lack of interest" problem that i perceive might be hurting a little bit of GSL's entertainment value is not really stemming from what you describe....
However dont get me wrong, i do not think this is a gigantic problem for the GSL. I just feel that GSL's code s system could probably be more entertaining to the average viewer if it allowed for more volatility.
If i had to get to the root of it, i'd say the perceived problem that could use some fixing is not that gsl full of "no names", its the fact that gsl is all super well known players. every player in code s is among "the best" players.
Every game is "the best" vs "the best", and i know this is just my opinion but i think that allowing some "new blood" into the equation will make it more entertaining for the average viewer....
Code A requires new bloods to play a whole season before getting into a code s tournament. My idea would allow some new bloods to be placed directly into each code s tournament with only a few days of playing required to achieve a seed.
Sometimes i enjoy watching a code s player completely crush a random guy in a "game that matters", my idea would let "new bloods" face off against code s players and the code s player would give his perfect game and completely crush because he knows if he loses to this guy he is out of the tournament.
However, what if the new guy wins? holy hell. wouldnt that create some suspense, some drama, a big element of the unknown and the mysterious. such mystique and "possibility for the impossible to happen" in my opinion would make the tournament alot more entertaining to the average viewer
How would a qualifier bracket that puts people into Code S be fair in any way to the people who have to go through the massive qualifier bracket for Code A? The lack of entertainment in GSL is the system itself, which allows players to determine their own seeding, causing the most entertaining matches to happen far before the finals as well as incidentally creating very one-sided finals.
I think Code S is specifically designed to be exclusive and to require tournament wins or runner-upping to qualify. This seems like a much more "Code A" kind of thing to do, and Code A does have a qualifying tournament anyways. The current ways to get into Code S:
Win Code A
Do well in Code A, do well in up/downs
Win MLG
Code S is supposed to be a tournament only amongst the best of the best, champions fighting champions. I think for this reason gomtv has specifically avoided doing what you suggested.
No, Code S being a closed tournament is definitely the way to go.
You could make the argument that there should be another, open bracket tournament in Korea that isn't related to Code S and I'd be all ears.
Besides I believe they already have a few open tournaments every year, like they did for the first 3, since they have a few different events (Super Tournament, Code S/A, International Tournament, Open Tournament, etc)
I find your suggestion terrible, but I agree that Code S lost its entertaining value long ago. My interest dropped for 2 reasons: few protosses and casters.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
hi i havent watched the gsl yet but its fun to watch tvts i think
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Hey Terrancraft is fun regardless of the MU aslong as you have great players, the real problem is that you cant root for 1 player consistently without them going into up/down or code A
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
This unfortunately. I usually watch off vods, and a large number of the individual matches I have no interest in because either they are predominantly "No" rated on the threads, are TvT (I mean the matchup is great but it gets stale to watch on a casual level, which I do a lot of times when it comes to GSL) or involve some sort of noncreative all in that just happens to work or doesn't work, usually coming from a terran or protoss.
tl;dr A lot of uninspired play and lots of TvT. Not GSL's fault really. Maybe it will get better in a few months, just have to wait and see. There are still good games though, and I do still watch those as I find them.
same here, with 5P 18T(holy check) and 7Z (and MKP still has shot on Code S in third day of UP/DOWN matches), seems epicly boring with so many TvTs zzzZZZZzzz (wake me up when it gets fixed)
I find MLG significantly more entertaining, there's almost always a game going on, less TvT, and I don't have to stay up til 2AM to watch it, but rather can do so midday. Watching things live makes things a million times better, which is the main reason why I don't watch IPL at all (haven't watched a single game). It's another reason I'm sort of turned off from the NASL.
I dont see why any1 can watch either MLG or GSL since they havent ever conflicted timewise (???). Anyways i do agree that the terran heavy code s is abit boring, but we had a large influx of zerg and toss in the code a qualifiers. Who knows maybe in a few months loads of the not best terrans will have dropped down to code a/b!
On September 08 2011 06:04 aisight wrote: How would a qualifier bracket that puts people into Code S be fair in any way to the people who have to go through the massive qualifier bracket for Code A? The lack of entertainment in GSL is the system itself, which allows players to determine their own seeding, causing the most entertaining matches to happen far before the finals as well as incidentally creating very one-sided finals.
im thinking to make it fair, allow ANYONE from code A to compete in this open tournament
make it so this open tournament lasts a few days and finishes before code A qualifiers start
if you make top16, you know you are in the code S tournament so you drop out of attempting Code A
if you dont make top16, you can tryout for code A of that season to try to get code s that way
however, this could create a situation where players view the open tournament as the easier way into the code S tournament.... but i dont think so, it would simply mean if your good enough to place top16 in the open your good enough to be seeded into code s, however if your not good enough to make top16 then you gotta go through code a like everyone else
As a protoss player, I have lost alot of interest due to the severe lack of protoss players in code s. I still watch those protoss players religiously though.
I'm sure it's a little of everything the OP has listed, but also because Code S shows games more frequently than MLG, and only like 2 or 3 games a day as opposed to MLG's weekend long marathon run, the "boring" games stand out a lot more. MLG has its share of bad games, but it's drowned out by all the good games being played concurrently.
You guys may be losing interest but the general view count trend for GSL seems to still be going up, not down. If you compare the view counts of GSL march or Open seasons 1/2/3 to the latest season you will see that the current seasons view counts are the same if not higher (disregarding the fact that the older seasons have had more time on the site so they will naturally have more views).
On September 08 2011 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote: I find MLG significantly more entertaining, there's almost always a game going on, less TvT, and I don't have to stay up til 2AM to watch it, but rather can do so midday. Watching things live makes things a million times better, which is the main reason why I don't watch IPL at all (haven't watched a single game). It's another reason I'm sort of turned off from the NASL.
Wait what, IPL and NASL are not that late for me, and I'm on the east coast, which is about as terrible as it gets timing-wise for US viewers.
Lost interest in GSL because there are over 60% terrans I only watch my favorite players, or if it's a match i really wanna see. But that's not the fault from GOM, they do an amazing job.
I lost interest because of the new format. Wait, I can't say I lost interest, but I don't quite understand how it works still (I could if I just read the format). I liked the GSL preseasons from last year. A straight up tournament of the top 64 players with standard brackets. Why can't they just do that with Code S being like the NFL version of the league, and code A being the minor leagues or somehting (not much thought into this idea I know).
The point being, I miss the old format and how exciting it was to see the top 2 players make it to the finals.
Edit: And yes, I am on the bandwagon with the "I'm tired of watching nothing but terrans". I really only tuned in to watch Huk, listen to tastosis in the background, and sometimes Code A when DoA was casting and Wolf... the actual content they were casting was of no interest to me but I liked the casters lol.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Hey Terrancraft is fun regardless of the MU aslong as you have great players, the real problem is that you cant root for 1 player consistently without them going into up/down or code A
Well, Clide and NaDa are both legendary for avoiding up/downs and Code A, so you can root for them <3 and NaDa is legendary anyways.
In my opinion it is just too frequent. It would be better if there were less games a week.
Generally I would like the idea of merging Code A and Code S by seeding tog (e.g top4) players into Code S at some point. There should be at least the possibility for a code A guy to win the thing from the bottom as it is possible in MLG. This would also create more storylines we could follow and enjoy.
I fear that GOM hast built some kind of bottleneck that prevents talents from reaching the top fast.
I disagree MLG system is flawed currently. The finals are always underwhelming cause of the double elimination bracket. I prefer single elimination tournaments.
That said GSl isn't perfect. I don't like the volatility of Code S round of 32. Think the rest of code S is fine. If group stages could some how be best of 3's vs each player, that would be more optinal in my mind.
However that would take just an insane amount of time.
like I said in another thread, ditch code A. Use a 64 man tourny like the super tournament with the players getting to ro32 keeping their spots for next tournament and the 32 losers will have to go thru qualifiers.This way we get alot new blood in each time, get to see up and comers and more upsets can happen, I think this would really liven GSL up. The qualifiers would even be more exciting as there are 32 spots and many big names trying to requalify each time. As things are right now it's getting pretty boring to see the same faces in code S and the skill gap between them and players wallowing in code A/B isn't much.
I sense a problem there. Including those open bracket qualified players into post-group play will inevitably lead to some of the players taking out well known players without being known at all beforehand. Imagine there are billions of MVP-Fans watching and some no-name Korean with insane skill takes out MVP just like that. It will certainly create some attention for this new player and most certainly there will be many new fans made, but the amount of players actually being disappointed and losing interest because their favourite player MVP got knocked out will be much higher.
Still i actually like the idea, but think the top 8 (or top X, whatevs) open bracket players should be included in group play, thus not being 'responsible' for knocking out some fan favourites before actually getting some televised playtime and being a little known at least plus if a fan favourite doesn't advance from groups, he most likely had a really hard group or simply didn't do too well against the other players in his group. Also it'd remind me more of the system MLG is using.. Seeding open bracket players directly into the tournament in a league that isn't played out during a very short period of time seems kinda counter-intuitive to me...
On September 08 2011 06:11 Cyanocyst wrote: I disagree MLG system is flawed currently. The finals are always underwhelming cause of the double elimination bracket. I prefer single elimination tournaments.
That said GSl isn't perfect. I don't like the volatility of Code S round of 32. Think the rest of code S is fine. If group stages could some how be best of 3's vs each player, that would be more optinal in my mind.
However that would take just an insane amount of time.
agree somewhat. possibly mlg needs to somehow garuntee a bo7 finals
id say the easiest way to do it is to simply make the finals bo7 no matter what and leave it at that. no double elimination in the finals
I've been following it closely for every season till now, but I find that I just check results for nearly all the matches instead of watching. Unless its a big time showdown, I won't bother to watch the plethora of TvT's. I have appreciation of their skill, but I can only look at so many floating buildings and blue flame for so long. Going into next season, it looks like I'll be doing even more of the same -- just quickly scanning results and moving along.
I watch the same amount of GSL as I did always. I bought the VoDs because its the best value out there. It might be losing popularity because many people don't agree with me about the value. I personally like that it's spread out over a few weeks. I hate MLG's structure of jamming 1,000 games into one weekend (that's why they are changing 'cuz I told them to).
I haven't seen very many people saying they are losing interest. /shrug
I love the GSL - Code A and S alike. I would watch it more, but my two issues are:
a) cant stay up til the sun comes up anymore, school has to take priority b) cant really afford the season ticket for VODs right now
Code A is super entertaining because you really get a sense of how different players are growing. I also enjoy Code S because you get to watch some big names duke it out
I dont play terran, and therefore dont have time to watch tvt, and since i play zerg now, i don't watch tvp either. Since that is about 66% of the games, i watch a lot less now than i used to. I used to watch just to see the good games, but watching terrans bunker rushing and bancheesing each other is just not something i have time for.
I watch gsl to see current Zerg strategies, and as long as they still have good zergs playing i will keep watching everyweek, just not as much as I used too.
Also, I hate the code s format in general, I mean best of ones, these are the best players in the world, and you are making them play best of ones?!!?!?!?. It's why the best players don't make it too the finals and the finals end up being one sided. Someone always cheeses their way to top4 or even further. If i'm gonna watch a sc2 match, I want too see atleast a bo3, bo5 would be preferable. I don't see how they feel a series of best of ones for the first rounds helps their system.
Thing is, MLG is an event. There is hype building going into MLGs which get to peak when MLG starts. Then you have 2 days of constant gaming, hyping, tons of stuff to watch/hear/talk about, and then it's over. It's hard to keep that hype for a month for GSL etc.
On September 08 2011 06:13 Sandro wrote: My solution:
GOM pays a handful of Terran players to switch their race to P or Z.
Voila! No more boring ass TvT's
It's unclear whether several Code S players would be able to retain their positions in Code S if they changed races-- It would take a lot of practice and learning new micro, and they may not fully recover from the change for some time.
as long as there is someone like Polt who makes TvT feel like ZvT, and games like MvP vs July game 2 or Yoda vs Leenock in the updowns, I will be watching GSL.
I just wanted to post to say that I still like Code S the way it is. The ro64 in the open tournaments is kinda fun in the way that watching SlayerS_Dragon play games in NA platinum is fun, but there are places to find that kind of entertainment. There is nothing like code S anywhere else. If anything mabye don't stress about catching every game there are too many to watch all of them, but if you take the mindset that being able to watch a vod of top end SC2 at any time then the season ticket is 100% worth it, and thats what I love about GSL.
On September 08 2011 06:09 ShootingStars wrote: The format is way too unstable... TvT is boring... my favorite players can't last more than 5 consecutive seasons haha
I disagree - the fact that so many terrans are in code S actually shows that the system is quite stable, providing the most consistent players with rewards of code S. Nada has never left code S. MVP dropping down was a fluke quickly rectified. I think Clide has also never left code S. Nestea? Obviously never left. These guys may not all be stellar players, but they are damned good and consistent, and the system has rewarded them for it.
The only thing that keeps me from watching Code S is that I watch GSL to try and improve my skill and try some new styles that I've seen pros doing. Unfortunately, I don't play terran so I end up skipping through most of the TvT's, just spending 3-4 minutes watching each TvT
you want a format where any dog can have his day? that is the GSL man. look at all the upsets and volatility in the rankings.
the reason I do not like the GSL as much is because the TIME is horrible. I am in the USA and games start at 2 AM for me...and end at 5 AM if I am lucky. They need to push the time forward or go back and forth.
GSL is getting boring to be because it comes on at 4am my time. I don't really care for watching VoDs because the suspense is all gone (I can't fool myself into thinking new events are unfolding), where watching live is full of suspense and drama.
I would watch a whole lot more GSL if they did a rebroadcast at a more reasonable time. For some reason that's more acceptable for me than watching VoDs, and its not because of money (I've paid for hq on a few seasons). I guess it makes it feel more like an event.
Imo the difference is, GSL is a few games/players per day, spread out over a long time, where as MLG is shittons of games with a lot of players in only 3 days. You work your way to the finals really quickly, and you keep in touch with it like that even when some players aren't of you interest.
there's always people complaining but doesn't mean the majority see it the same way.
I know when I read the LR threads of MLG, people complain about the koreans dominating the podium and claim they won't watch MLG. But that doesn't mean the majority see it that way too.
when I think of code S, I think of it being a exclusive elite league.
I like MLG because there are a lot of mismatches skill wise. You'll have insanely good players from Korea (or even Europe) fighting other mid level foreign pros and it makes for weird games.
A lot of the Korean vs. Korean games take place in a metagame that is far beyond the Western scene and due to the fact that the Western pros try to catch up to the Koreans by copying them there are 'holes' in their understanding of how the Koreans reached certain conclusions about builds and timings.
How this manifests in actual games is in strange builds and timings by the Koreans that haven't really ever been seen because they were evolutionary steps in the development of the current KvK metagame. Koreans have solved these builds on the ladder and their game has moved past them but they still work really damn well on everyone else.
Mismatches make for fun games as does the grueling gauntlet format where you're excited to see who is going to make it up through the open bracket. The mix of styles and, yes, I have to say it, the greater diversity of races at MLG makes for a more entertaining tournament overall.
On September 08 2011 06:17 Slusher wrote: I just wanted to post to say that I still like Code S the way it is. The ro64 in the open tournaments is kinda fun in the way that watching SlayerS_Dragon play games in NA platinum is fun, but there are places to find that kind of entertainment. There is nothing like code S anywhere else. If anything mabye don't stress about catching every game there are too many to watch all of them, but if you take the mindset that being able to watch a vod of top end SC2 at any time then the season ticket is 100% worth it, and thats what I love about GSL.
I actually think you make a good point here. There's value in the open tournament, and you get some hilarious games. I do think that Code S level play is something unique and should be preserved rather than watered down. In theory, things like the MLG exchange program should let new talent into the pool as well.
GSL happens too often and quickly, once you show too much of something some people start losing interest. GSL should've been 4 times a year max. Rebroadcast times for other regions of the world would also help tons
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Dunno why you got a warning. But this is mostly the reason why me and most of the ppl I talked with dont like to watch Code S anymore. Obviously not GOM-TV's fault but still.
Code A is much more entertaining but doesnt get the attention it deserves.
On September 08 2011 06:09 ShootingStars wrote: The format is way too unstable... TvT is boring... my favorite players can't last more than 5 consecutive seasons haha
I disagree - the fact that so many terrans are in code S actually shows that the system is quite stable, providing the most consistent players with rewards of code S. Nada has never left code S. MVP dropping down was a fluke quickly rectified. I think Clide has also never left code S. Nestea? Obviously never left. These guys may not all be stellar players, but they are damned good and consistent, and the system has rewarded them for it.
I'd rather have players who have off and on days than players who consistently go to Ro16 and fail and never reach higher... pointless
On September 08 2011 06:09 ShootingStars wrote: The format is way too unstable... TvT is boring... my favorite players can't last more than 5 consecutive seasons haha
I disagree - the fact that so many terrans are in code S actually shows that the system is quite stable, providing the most consistent players with rewards of code S. Nada has never left code S. MVP dropping down was a fluke quickly rectified. I think Clide has also never left code S. Nestea? Obviously never left. These guys may not all be stellar players, but they are damned good and consistent, and the system has rewarded them for it.
I'd rather have players who have off and on days than players who consistently go to Ro16 and fail and never reach higher... pointless
That's a reasonable point with respect to Clide, but Nada, MVP, and NesTea all make deeper runs than the Ro16 on a regular basis. In fact, MVP and NesTea are both champions.
On September 08 2011 06:17 Golgotha wrote: you want a format where any dog can have his day? that is the GSL man. look at all the upsets and volatility in the rankings.
the reason I do not like the GSL as much is because the TIME is horrible. I am in the USA and games start at 2 AM for me...and end at 5 AM if I am lucky. They need to push the time forward or go back and forth.
And royally screw the Europeans suddenly because USA wants to have better viewing times, not even including that the times would be stupid in Korea too as they are just used to this. A rebroadcast like @ MLG isn't needed because you just have the VODs.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Dunno why you got a warning. But this is mostly the reason why me and most of the ppl I talked with dont like to watch Code S anymore. Obviously not GOM-TV's fault but still.
Code A is much more entertaining but doesnt get the attention it deserves.
I try to watch Code A but the casters cracking bad jokes and trying to emulate tastosis make it painful.
Coming from a fan of the BW proscene since 2006 or so...
I haven't really watched SC2GSL much, so I cannot say what I don't like about it specifically. I can say that no-name koreans playing each other isn't very attractive to me though, no matter what level of skill they bring.
For MLG on the other hand, I usually sit up all play hours, till around 8am local time. Two pretty central reasons to this, I think, are the players and the audience.
The players at MLG aren't just anonymous korean mechanic monsters - there's so many experienced players who's been with the international Starcraft scene for so long, with a massive history, both good and bad, behind them. The players feels a lot more alive, and while their gameplay is excellent, it's not perfect, and it is thus a lot easier to cheer for and empathise with them. They represent the geek dream we all sometimes sit with - "Hey, that guy could be me, dude!".
The audience is what interested me with BW originally. I think I saw a Blizzcon 2006 between Savior and... someone. At the time, my only real experience with BW was my own casual playing over the years, so I was pretty flabbergasted by the crowd enthusiasm and caster hyping. Together, they created a really special ambience that I've since seen in big korean and foreign BW events.
So yea, that's about it. Personality and ambience is what I like MLG and other foreign big events for.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
lizzard_warish may have been warned for his post, but I hold the same opinion. Speaking only for myself, I just can't stand to watch this many TvTs.
On September 08 2011 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote: I find MLG significantly more entertaining, there's almost always a game going on, less TvT, and I don't have to stay up til 2AM to watch it, but rather can do so midday. Watching things live makes things a million times better, which is the main reason why I don't watch IPL at all (haven't watched a single game). It's another reason I'm sort of turned off from the NASL.
Wait what, IPL and NASL are not that late for me, and I'm on the east coast, which is about as terrible as it gets timing-wise for US viewers.
Oh, if I wasn't clear, I meant neither IPL nor NASL are live, and I don't get to watch GSL live because of time zones. MLG is the only one I can watch live.
GSL seems really similar to OSL/MSL in its format on first glance, but has a few things that make it feel not quite right. I think two of the main reasons are: GSL happening way more often than OSL/MSL does, so it kind of dilutes the whole experience, and GSL never having an actual crowd area (besides finals) for the camera to pan over with people.. the crowd is much different at OSL/MSL games than it is at GSL.
Drop the convoluted Code A/S system, it keeps the competition stale. Sure SC2 might be a bit too volatile, but that's a good thing for GSL at this point. I assume they were worried about building the stories behind players, but it simply isn't needed anymore. People know their favorites and underdogs, especially thanks to Artosis. Adopt either OSL or MSL system, so only top16 get seeded into the next season and give more space to the qualifiers, thus making each "season" run longer and generate more hype for the finals.
TSL is probably the closest to my ideal tournament, if somebody wasn't there, they weren't good enough and you could see that people were preparing for the matches. HuK's recent GSL games looked like they just caught him laddering.
gsl is getting boring cos of whats at stake.With so much money and prestige to be won, people arent willing to try anything new or different they just wanna do what they know works in order to win.
its true, its so boring. And it doesnt seem to be helpful much either, and im only diamond. Plus i think they need to rotate the casters, tastosis are just really boring and predictable
Am I the only one who just doesn't think it's getting boring? It has far better play than any other tournament out there, awesome casting, and is (for me at least) by far the most entertaining thing to watch.
I can imagine some tournament format tweaks helping a little, and a bigger studio/crowd would add some good atmosphere... but I really think it's already great.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
lizzard_warish may have been warned for his post, but I hold the same opinion. Speaking only for myself, I just can't stand to watch this many TvTs.
Although the TvTs may be tiresome, there is an elite cadre of high-level protoss and zerg players in GSL who regularly make it to the Ro8 and often to the Ro4 and finals-- I find TvTs are most common in group play. This is the first TvT finals in some time, and if MVP hadn't been against NesTea so early, it would probably be TvZ finals.
A lot of the problems I think with GSL code S is Goms structure for group selection is flawed, yes it's fun to watch player chose groups / taunt each other but every single season you get 1 half the bracket completely stacked and the other having 1 or 2 clear winners.
Randomize the groups and I think the overall tournament would improve.
On September 08 2011 06:09 ShootingStars wrote: The format is way too unstable... TvT is boring... my favorite players can't last more than 5 consecutive seasons haha
I disagree - the fact that so many terrans are in code S actually shows that the system is quite stable, providing the most consistent players with rewards of code S. Nada has never left code S. MVP dropping down was a fluke quickly rectified. I think Clide has also never left code S. Nestea? Obviously never left. These guys may not all be stellar players, but they are damned good and consistent, and the system has rewarded them for it.
The thing is that the best system hasnt to be the most entertaining one. As you can see, Code S is pretty stacked with Terrans. I wont argue on why there are consistently in Code S or not. The format of GSL may pay off, the "best"(maybe not best, but most consistant) players stay in Code S, but if these players are mostly Terrans and Zergs, it gets boring after a month or two.
As a zerg player, I have to agree with op. But it is more about Zerg players got destroyed in GSL and no hope can be seen. And I can feel it could be worse for Protoss players, especially when MC got demoted to code A today.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Just clearing things up that this poster probably only got warned due to his extreme language and use of "F" and "G" words. other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and he has his, and thats why he wasnt banned he was just warned.
Are there some stats on these? MLG is obviously at a reasonable time and is probably more exciting than the first couple rounds of Code S since it starts and finishes a huge tournament with hundreds of games within 3 days. I'm not really sure how you can compare the two as they are quite different, I personally still love the Code S matches although even a terran such as myself would like to see other matchups more . Also free VoDs! I don't get to watch as much GSL as I would like to.
tl,dr; MLG is condensed intense action with hundreds of excited fans and 4 awesome casters, GSL is spread out action with a quiet studio and 2 awesome casters, but I love them both! :D
I agree with the warned guy. It's the damn TvT's personally I just can't get excited unless it's like Boxer vs MKP or something sick. Everytime I see TvT I just minimize, mute and put some good Kpop on.
On September 08 2011 06:17 MK4512 wrote: EVENTUALLY, Code S will weed out every weak player, and it will become the true pinacle of competition... Just wait for a bit.
I agree that the current code S system will work perfectly.... over time... possibly a long time....
But i also think the game and peoples skill and whats possible today is a highly volatile aspect of starcraft 2 as an esport.
Any tournament that has more of a "its any mans game, any dog can have his day" element such as seeding players from an open bracket, will allow more of this volatility to flow through into its tournament.
And i guess at the end of the day its just my opinion as to how good it is to be letting this volatility flow. Some people may think its less entertaining to let the volatility into the tournament. I feel it is more entertaining.
On September 08 2011 06:20 plated.rawr wrote: Coming from a fan of the BW proscene since 2006 or so...
I haven't really watched SC2GSL much, so I cannot say what I don't like about it specifically. I can say that no-name koreans playing each other isn't very attractive to me though, no matter what level of skill they bring.
For MLG on the other hand, I usually sit up all play hours, till around 8am local time. Two pretty central reasons to this, I think, are the players and the audience.
The players at MLG aren't just anonymous korean mechanic monsters - there's so many experienced players who's been with the international Starcraft scene for so long, with a massive history, both good and bad, behind them. The players feels a lot more alive, and while their gameplay is excellent, it's not perfect, and it is thus a lot easier to cheer for and empathise with them. They represent the geek dream we all sometimes sit with - "Hey, that guy could be me, dude!".
The audience is what interested me with BW originally. I think I saw a Blizzcon 2006 between Savior and... someone. At the time, my only real experience with BW was my own casual playing over the years, so I was pretty flabbergasted by the crowd enthusiasm and caster hyping. Together, they created a really special ambience that I've since seen in big korean and foreign BW events.
So yea, that's about it. Personality and ambience is what I like MLG and other foreign big events for.
This common misconception that Koreans don't have personalities and are simply mechanical monsters is a little bit irritating.
They have personalities. You'd be able to tell if you spent any time at all watching/reading interviews and/or keeping up with Milkis's Twitter (or even the Twitters of the players involved). Unfortunately, it seems that very few people do this and then go on to talk about how Koreans are just machines practicing 12 hours a day.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Just clearing things up that this poster probably only got warned due to his extreme language and use of "F" and "G" words. other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and he has his, and thats why he wasnt banned he was just warned.
Mods use worse language than that
He was just made an example of not to start "terran op" speak
On September 08 2011 06:23 TheButtonmen wrote: A lot of the problems I think with GSL code S is Goms structure for group selection is flawed, yes it's fun to watch player chose groups / taunt each other but every single season you get 1 half the bracket completely stacked and the other having 1 or 2 clear winners.
Randomize the groups and I think the overall tournament would improve.
Or even seed the groups based on previous player performance, guaranteeing high-quality games as the tournament progresses, and having some more closely-matched finals games. This would definitely do more to shake things up than bringing in people through an alternative qualification scheme.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Just clearing things up that this poster probably only got warned due to his extreme language and use of "F" and "G" words. other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and he has his, and thats why he wasnt banned he was just warned.
Mods use worse language than that
He was just made an example of not to start "terran op" speak
Its pretty bigoted to use the word "Gay" as a descriptor for something bad or something you dislike.
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
Also, it takes soooo long! MLG you can really feel momentum build as the tournament goes- it's really harsh to have to wait a week between seeing a player play 2 consecutive matches.
when you give them most creative and inventive players a full week to prepare for their matches, the builds they develop simply become too abusive of either the racial imbalances or their opponents weaknesses, so although it does produce high level games, a lot of the games in Code S, because the players want to win so much and have so much time to prepare, theyre not willing to risk playing entertaining games and produce entertaining SC2, rather they would just have a build order win that doesnt do anything for the crowd.
on the other hand, when players have to play 20 games against all different races, all within a weekend, they have no time to prepare for each match, then they start playing for standard openings, and produce longer, more entertaining games, since they just dont have the time to analyse an opponents playstyle and develop a build to counter. so to have abusive builds, they have to be developed and played essentially blind, which is a huge risk, and so you get players willing to rely more on playing standard games, and let their overall skill, whether it be micro and game or decision making take over, and thats where entertaining SC2 is produced.
MC lost something I think he shouldn't have, let's quickly make a thread about it and blame the format/his race/Korean lag.
25% of all players in a given season go to the up and down matches, which means potentially you could see 8 new players every season come up from Code A. People have, in fact, been complaining that TOO FEW new players come in regardless of that.
I have absolutely no problem with the GSL format and I have no idea why you want to make it more open. That's not the point of a LEAGUE. You want open tournaments, watch MLG or Dreamhack. Leagues are there so we can watch the performance of players change over time as they play in each and every season.
Code S/A is pretty entertaining. the tvt's do get boring once inawhile.. but when high level players like Mvp/MMA/polt are in it, I don't mind. Sure beats nestea rolling over inca and losira.
On September 08 2011 06:20 Sandro wrote: I try to watch Code A but the casters cracking bad jokes and trying to emulate tastosis make it painful.
Yea, this is a problem too. At the beginning the Doa&Moletrap-Combination was pretty good, but every caster duo fails at emulating Tastosis.
On September 08 2011 06:24 roymarthyup wrote: Just clearing things up that this poster probably only got warned due to his extreme language and use of "F" and "G" words. other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and he has his, and thats why he wasnt banned he was just warned.
I'm not so sure. These words are at many places in this Forum, but most people dont get warned. Maybe it wasnt his first time?!
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Well, if you dont play Terran and the only thing you see on GSL is TvTs, it kinda gets boring and frustrating after a while. I mean, many people may watch to see some new stuff from Protoss or Zerg, but they dont because there are so few of them.
On September 08 2011 06:30 EcstatiC wrote: GSL is too abusive.
when you give them most creative and inventive players a full week to prepare for their matches, the builds they develop simply become too abusive of either the racial imbalances or their opponents weaknesses, so although it does produce high level games, a lot of the games in Code S, because the players want to win so much and have so much time to prepare, theyre not willing to risk playing entertaining games and produce entertaining SC2, rather they would just have a build order win that doesnt do anything for the crowd.
on the other hand, when players have to play 20 games against all different races, all within a weekend, they have no time to prepare for each match, then they start playing for standard openings, and produce longer, more entertaining games, since they just dont have the time to analyse an opponents playstyle and develop a build to counter. so to have abusive builds, they have to be developed and played essentially blind, which is a huge risk, and so you get players willing to rely more on playing standard games, and let their overall skill, whether it be micro and game or decision making take over, and thats where entertaining SC2 is produced.
You can say that, and that could be a fair point; but I'd like to note that identifying and eventually overcoming and ironing out these "abuse" builds is long-run good for the Sc2 metagame. Plus, only in Code S do we see such baller balling as the NesTea anti-FFE spinecrawler rush <3
The main reason GSL is getting stale is the mass of Terrans and this is coming from a Terran player. Protoss really needs some help because they're hopeless atm at the highest level. And I don't believe this argument that the reason is that just more good players are choosing Terran. Because of the way the race is designed there's just a lot more that can be done. Protoss, and to a lesser extent Zerg, have to get some fixes in HotS to get them up to par with Terran in this regard.
Also, the players choosing there own groups is also something that fucks up the brackets. Something done by seeding (based on GSL points) would be a lot better. Then MVP, Nestea, MC etc wouldn't meet until atleast the semi-finals.
Its just all the terrans ㅠㅠ Its cool to watch the best of your race play but for protoss things aren't going too well and its discouraging to watch your heroes get smashed that bad, feeling so helpless. Thats why i think alot of protoss players are getting bored of gsl.
There's too many games. I went from trying to watch every game including code A and up/down, to just code S, to just zerg games in code S. With all the foreign stuff going on I can't keep up.
On the other hand all the big foreign tournaments are weekend long lans with large crowds and tons of matches crammed into a short amount of time, and it's easier to get hyped up over compared to a season type format that the gsl employs.
Maybe they need to space it out more and allow an open pool to be directly seeded into the top 32 (or 64). OSL/MSL are like twice a year so having GSL nearly 12 times a year doesn't allow it to be hyped up as much and makes it feel more repetitive. They could also add different kinds of content between matches like bnet attack. Project A is a good step in that regard.
Obviously, the fact that air Live at 2 AM PST has a lot to do with it. That, and there are A LOT of games per day. The frequent TvT is something that GomTV can't change.
That said, I have been paying subscription ever since GSL Season 2.
On September 08 2011 06:20 plated.rawr wrote: Coming from a fan of the BW proscene since 2006 or so...
I haven't really watched SC2GSL much, so I cannot say what I don't like about it specifically. I can say that no-name koreans playing each other isn't very attractive to me though, no matter what level of skill they bring.
For MLG on the other hand, I usually sit up all play hours, till around 8am local time. Two pretty central reasons to this, I think, are the players and the audience.
The players at MLG aren't just anonymous korean mechanic monsters - there's so many experienced players who's been with the international Starcraft scene for so long, with a massive history, both good and bad, behind them. The players feels a lot more alive, and while their gameplay is excellent, it's not perfect, and it is thus a lot easier to cheer for and empathise with them. They represent the geek dream we all sometimes sit with - "Hey, that guy could be me, dude!".
The audience is what interested me with BW originally. I think I saw a Blizzcon 2006 between Savior and... someone. At the time, my only real experience with BW was my own casual playing over the years, so I was pretty flabbergasted by the crowd enthusiasm and caster hyping. Together, they created a really special ambience that I've since seen in big korean and foreign BW events.
So yea, that's about it. Personality and ambience is what I like MLG and other foreign big events for.
This common misconception that Koreans don't have personalities and are simply mechanical monsters is a little bit irritating.
They have personalities. You'd be able to tell if you spent any time at all watching/reading interviews and/or keeping up with Milkis's Twitter (or even the Twitters of the players involved). Unfortunately, it seems that very few people do this and then go on to talk about how Koreans are just machines practicing 12 hours a day.
That's not my point. Yes, the korean players have a ton of personality, but currently there's a lot of SC2 events which means I have to pick what to watch instead of grab it all, and who do you think I would prefer following - the guys I've already followed for 5 years, or some new hotshots plus one or two oldies sprinkled in between? I've already gotten to 'know' the other players over five years, so of course I'm more interested in following their doings than some new guys from Korea doing basically the same thing as them.
It's an inherited familiarity from BW. If GSL sported more BW veterans than they're doing now, then I'd be watching it religiously, but the familiar faces are in the foreign scene, so there's the entertainment for me.
just get rid of Code S and Code A and have one tournament with seeds, just like every other tournament in the world. Why is GSL so needlessly complicated?
I'm at the point where I just want to watch Code A mainly because I'm a protoss player who just wants to watch something Protoss related and there just aren't enough protoss in GSL to keep me interested.
On September 08 2011 06:32 L3gendary wrote: There's too many games. I went from trying to watch every game including code A and up/down, to just code S, to just zerg games in code S. With all the foreign stuff going on I can't keep up.
On the other hand all the big foreign tournaments are weekend long lans with large crowds and tons of matches crammed into a short amount of time, and it's easier to get hyped up over compared to a season type format that the gsl employs.
Maybe they need to space it out more and allow an open pool to be directly seeded into the top 32 (or 64). OSL/MSL are like twice a year so having GSL nearly 12 times a year doesn't allow it to be hyped up as much and makes it feel more repetitive. They could also add different kinds of content between matches like bnet attack. Project A is a good step in that regard.
On September 08 2011 06:32 BirdKiller wrote: Obviously, the fact that air Live at 2 AM PST has a lot to do with it.
It could be a combination of these two things, too. I mean, given that there is a lot of content, maybe people don't feel comfortable watching it all? I know that I play it in the background when doing other things at home, but I invest in a ticket every season to maintain reasonable sleep schedule. Not everyone has the luxury, which I'm sure makes it difficult for East Coast viewers at 5 am as well.
On September 08 2011 06:30 EcstatiC wrote: GSL is too abusive.
when you give them most creative and inventive players a full week to prepare for their matches, the builds they develop simply become too abusive of either the racial imbalances or their opponents weaknesses, so although it does produce high level games, a lot of the games in Code S, because the players want to win so much and have so much time to prepare, theyre not willing to risk playing entertaining games and produce entertaining SC2, rather they would just have a build order win that doesnt do anything for the crowd.
on the other hand, when players have to play 20 games against all different races, all within a weekend, they have no time to prepare for each match, then they start playing for standard openings, and produce longer, more entertaining games, since they just dont have the time to analyse an opponents playstyle and develop a build to counter. so to have abusive builds, they have to be developed and played essentially blind, which is a huge risk, and so you get players willing to rely more on playing standard games, and let their overall skill, whether it be micro and game or decision making take over, and thats where entertaining SC2 is produced.
This is a great post and certainly very possible. Interesting perspective
On September 08 2011 06:30 EcstatiC wrote: GSL is too abusive.
when you give them most creative and inventive players a full week to prepare for their matches, the builds they develop simply become too abusive of either the racial imbalances or their opponents weaknesses, so although it does produce high level games, a lot of the games in Code S, because the players want to win so much and have so much time to prepare, theyre not willing to risk playing entertaining games and produce entertaining SC2, rather they would just have a build order win that doesnt do anything for the crowd.
on the other hand, when players have to play 20 games against all different races, all within a weekend, they have no time to prepare for each match, then they start playing for standard openings, and produce longer, more entertaining games, since they just dont have the time to analyse an opponents playstyle and develop a build to counter. so to have abusive builds, they have to be developed and played essentially blind, which is a huge risk, and so you get players willing to rely more on playing standard games, and let their overall skill, whether it be micro and game or decision making take over, and thats where entertaining SC2 is produced.
You know, your argument essentially implies that SC2 is a bad game. :/ If the highest level of preparation and creativity results in crappy games, then that means that the game itself isn't a good esport.
Similarly, for me it's mostly the fact that most games in the GSL are just bad. After you get over all the 1 base all-ins, proxy raxes and bunker rushes, you get really one-sided macro games, way too much TvT, and after enduring all of that, you can perhaps watch an entertaining match. This was my experience with the last two GSLs.
Its hard to compare the two. MLG is a compact event where you get all the action in 3 days of nonstop starcraft with enormous wait time between games that gives the illusion each is special or something. You are more aware of who you are watching because you've heard of him somewhere else.
GSL on the contrary is a month long tournament with increasing wait time as long as it progresses full of players that you might not know or care about but with overall higher skill. The obvious race disproportion in gsl doesn't help either and since the broadcasts cover every single game you can't artificially alter the matches spectators get to see.
Apples and oranges.
GSL could improve drastically by actually doing interviews that don't answer every question with "I'll win with a crushing victory" or "I'll practice harder to show my fans appreciation". Its like they have an attorney sitting right next to them whispering what to say to avoid a lawsuit.
In short. If GSL wants more viewers they need to make these code S (which sounds so S-pecial) yet mean so little to foreigners... known and have some sort of defining characteristic. A simple "tank yu to al my fans" would give them more popularity than getting to ro16 id bet.
I prefer MLG because of the schedule. I tried to watch GSL but it's far too late in the night for me (in North America) to watch during the week. Also I only have a moderate amount of time to watch games so it's far easier to watch during the weekend once in a while than the millions of GSL games (I don't really know but there seems to be so many of them...).
On September 08 2011 06:08 latan wrote: I can put my finger on it, it's because I can't stay up that late to watch live games.
Welcome to the world of EU, who have to stay up stupidly late to watch your MLGs.
Dreamhack, IEM, Assembly, etc.
I think we can all agree that, in a scene of worldwide tournaments, we all have to make some sleep-schedule sacrifices to watch tournaments live. It's a good thing that there are so many great pro games around the world being played, in my opinion.
I like watching GSL alot more than mlg, the breaks are way shorter and the players a lot better on average. Though i can understand people who complain about constant TvTs I don't see how mlg is better. The last 3 tournaments were all extremely terran heavy once the bracket play started. I admit though that i miss daily Tastosis' casts. Although I think the other casters are nice as well, I dont the any other caster duo has the same quality as they do. Im really looking forward to Khaldors casting though.
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play 2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg" 3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing
compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders
On September 08 2011 06:33 tree.hugger wrote: Or...
just get rid of Code S and Code A and have one tournament with seeds, just like every other tournament in the world. Why is GSL so needlessly complicated?
Because a two tier system helps to separate the best from the rest, and then showcase those players. Look at people like Kyrix. A lot of people don't believe in Code S. It takes a few seasons, because players can get a lucky win or two, but then it evens out. Give it until November/ December, and Code S will mainly only contain the players who deserve to be there...
I don't like MLG's system at all for it being just a weekend tournament. Should just be double elim for everyone the whole way through, I think we'd get to see a lot more of the actual tournament instead of just pool matches of the same players over and over that way also.
GSL's system is hilariously bad. It should be possible for someone to start at the bottom qualifiers and work their way through to the championship.
The MSL and OSL had great systems for this, giving the top 8 from the last tournament a seed into the ro32 of the next, but everyone outside of that going a step back in the qualifying process.
There are too many good players, especially in korea, to have Code S so set apart. If you forced everyone currently in code S to try to qualify again, many would not make it back. That means for every amazing champion player we have in Code S, we have just as many champion caliber player that simply can't get in because of the low turnover, and lots of players of a lesser caliber staying in Code S because of the rules.
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play 2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg" 3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing
compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders
I think all the matchups have merit, actually. PvP, for example, is so intense and micro-oriented that it's riveting. Watching Huk v Killer had me glued to the edge of my seat sweating like a fish for the entire game! TvT is very positional, but watching the mechanics and tactics fly around in the other matchups is entertaining as well
hard to complain about a weekend jampacked full of great games like MLG, at the same time its the things like GSL that keep me interested in the sport long-term, every week there always seems to be at least one match that i'm stoked for and keeps me intrigued. thats just me though.
On September 08 2011 06:21 AudionovA wrote: Its been said before, there's simply to much TvT.
Yes couldn't agree more, however I doubt there's something they really can do about it. However I'm always curious why MLG always gets so many terran invites, perhaps because it's the dominating race in korea or because of something else perhaps...
On September 08 2011 06:36 Highways wrote: Too much games and super high frequency of them.
GOM needs to gave a break or show less games.
I agree with this. Especially during the first 2 weeks of the past few seasons, they have 5-6hours of casting per day, maybe even more. Its too much to watch. Plus with the team league happening at the same time, its a lot of starcraft to take in.
On September 08 2011 06:21 AudionovA wrote: Its been said before, there's simply to much TvT.
Yes couldn't agree more, however I doubt there's something they really can do about it. However I'm always curious why MLG always gets so many terran invites, perhaps because it's the dominating race in korea or because of something else perhaps...
I think MLG_Adam specifically said they aim to invite the returning champion (which, surprise, is always a korean terran) and 1t 1p and 1z.
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play 2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg" 3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing
compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders
I think all the matchups have merit, actually. PvP, for example, is so intense and micro-oriented that it's riveting. Watching Huk v Killer had me glued to the edge of my seat sweating like a fish for the entire game! TvT is very positional, but watching the mechanics and tactics fly around in the other matchups is entertaining as well
my take on PvP is it's like a warcraft 3 match that ends in 10 minutes on account of things actually die
there's certainly a skill to it, but the current state of TvT resembles a game of brood war more than any of the other matchups, and as someone who's been following the scene on and off since flash was just that kid who cheesed bisu out, i find it to be the most entertaining matchup
I don't agree that GSL is becoming more boring, personally. GSL has only become more high level as the seasons have gone by. It's possible that some people are simply becoming bored of starcraft itself. After all, most sports don't have their fans watching them 12 months of the year, 5 days a week.
MLG isn't just starcraft games. It's interviews, big crowds, and drama. GSL is more just, small intro with flashing lights/flames, and then game, game, game, with maybe some small ceremonies in between or after.
If you're interested in studying the game itself, there's nothing better than GSL. If you want the whole package of entertainment, MLG.
so u just want more regular super tournament/world championship where everyone can take place... maybe do 1 month code A/S then 1 month championship or smth,
TvT is like watching nascar, there's a few good moments in an otherwise boooooooring event. If you got the time to sit down and watch all of it, it can be entertaining, otherwise it's not really worth it. Especially with all the other leagues and tournaments going on.
Plus I think SC2 now is past the point of explosive growth in the number of openers and strats so there aren't as many metagame shifting strats as there were in earlier seasons.
On September 08 2011 06:21 AudionovA wrote: Its been said before, there's simply to much TvT.
Yes couldn't agree more, however I doubt there's something they really can do about it. However I'm always curious why MLG always gets so many terran invites, perhaps because it's the dominating race in korea or because of something else perhaps...
I think MLG_Adam specifically said they aim to invite the returning champion (which, surprise, is always a korean terran) and 1t 1p and 1z.
anaheim they got mma, boxer, mvp as the invites
they could also invite the other races depending on the returning champ, not that hard for them to do.
TvT's were sooooo boring to me. Now if there are TvT's i play around with my Gom player settings (ctrl + h, ctrl + v and a bunch of other stuff) and it becomes way better
GSL is pretty boring too watch, there's barely any storylines behind the players. Just 'Oh that guy is pretty good', 'Yeh the guy he's playing is pretty good too'. Let's see who wins.
Sure I'll tune in for the semi's and the finals if it's no TvT. But I couldn't care less about the earlier rounds or who are actually playing the finals. And the terrible free quality stream doesn't help either.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
^this, pls dont ban me, but its the truth..
i still love gsl, i'm but also enjoy tvz but tvt... no sry enough is enough
something that confuses me about threads like this is that where are the stats that prove this?
Also, TvT's are apparently awful, but they provide everything everyone complains for. longer games, strategic games, drop play, multiple engagements, varying strategies. non-all ins. macro play, with some cheesy play mixed in. How many TvT's have you seen this GSL that followed the exact same build.
How many games have you watched of PvP's that came down to who 4gated better. or ZvZ on who ling/baned better or who got roaches first.
TvT is one of the few mirror matchups that has a constantly evolving meta game, yet people constantly complain about it.
Sure, of course, TvZ would be awesome to watch, and we do get to see it often, but mirror matches are inevitable. Telling gomtv to somehow not have so many TvT's is kinda stupid. Yes, i know, Protoss is in a bad spot right now, losing to both T 1/1/1's and Z current metagame, but how long did P suffer in BW before Bisu came along and revolutionized the game? I mean, it's weird to me to hear about "getting boring" after just a handful of GSLs. Yes the finals haven't been amazing, but is that Gom's fault? I feel like changing the format won't suddenly make it better.
Players getting stomped by players who are entire tiers better than them are why the finals haven't been as exciting right? How is adding in randoms from an open bracket going to make this more fun? Because occassionally we'll see our favorite heroes get cheesed out by some random unknown?
I love MLG, i Love GSL, i watch both religiously. I fail to see how GSL has declined in it's watchability. Mvp doing as well as he has without relying on 1/1/1 has only made this final even more fun to watch as he takes on Top the underdog who is trying to prove himself to the world.
So can people elaborate why TvT is so boring to watch unless it's the fact that players actually don't like long games, and only want to watch their own races?
On September 08 2011 06:36 Highways wrote: Too much games and super high frequency of them.
GOM needs to gave a break or show less games.
THIS. I prefer having maybe 3 GSL individual tournaments per year, and with the focus on team leagues that span a whole season. Watching GSL now, I feel like I'm watching it on warp speed.
This could just be a symptom of me being used to the OSL/MSL/Proleague format, but every game was BIG and you could follow it for a whole year (proleague) and it felt like watching Hockey or Football all season long. Ups and downs, reversals, planning time, and a chance to really get a feel for a player.
Slow it down folks. We already have incredible numbers of tournaments, it wouldn't hurt to give them a bit more meaning. 1/month is too much.
something that confuses me about threads like this is that where are the stats that prove this?
Also, TvT's are apparently awful, but they provide everything everyone complains for. longer games, strategic games, drop play, multiple engagements, varying strategies. non-all ins. macro play, with some cheesy play mixed in. How many TvT's have you seen this GSL that followed the exact same build.
How many games have you watched of PvP's that came down to who 4gated better. or ZvZ on who ling/baned better or who got roaches first.
TvT is one of the few mirror matchups that has a constantly evolving meta game, yet people constantly complain about it.
Sure, of course, TvZ would be awesome to watch, and we do get to see it often, but mirror matches are inevitable. Telling gomtv to somehow not have so many TvT's is kinda stupid. Yes, i know, Protoss is in a bad spot right now, losing to both T 1/1/1's and Z current metagame, but how long did P suffer in BW before Bisu came along and revolutionized the game? I mean, it's weird to me to hear about "getting boring" after just a handful of GSLs. Yes the finals haven't been amazing, but is that Gom's fault? I feel like changing the format won't suddenly make it better.
Players getting stomped by players who are entire tiers better than them are why the finals haven't been as exciting right? How is adding in randoms from an open bracket going to make this more fun? Because occassionally we'll see our favorite heroes get cheesed out by some random unknown?
I love MLG, i Love GSL, i watch both religiously. I fail to see how GSL has declined in it's watchability. Mvp doing as well as he has without relying on 1/1/1 has only made this final even more fun to watch as he takes on Top the underdog who is trying to prove himself to the world.
So can people elaborate why TvT is so boring to watch unless it's the fact that players actually don't like long games, and only want to watch their own races?
A couple of TvT's are ok. Thirty TvT's in a row that last 30++ mins become boooooooooring
Its pretty normal to lose interest if there are so many sc2 tournements around. I mean I like watching soccer but I cant do that everyday. for sc2 is the same, sometimes you need to get a break from so much content that being produced in sc2.
My reasons for starting to watch less of the GSL lately:
1) Terrans.
Too many of them. Too much TvT. And too many Terran wins over the other two races that leave me with a bad taste in my mouth.
2) BO1
There is a huge instability in their game format. With cheese being so potent in SC2, BO1s are a really bad deal. And with good players dropping in Code A because of some cheesy run in the RO32/UpAndDown matches, it really makes it bad to watch.
3) The Game Design
Ball of unit vs Ball of unit is bad. Happens most in TvP, PvP and TvT. A tad less in Zerg match-ups which I find the most interesting to watch. But I might be biased on that. Anyway, if the game does not allow easier defenses to make place for more harrass and multiple action across the map, watching two dudes massing up armies and slamming them into each other gets old pretty fast.
4) No Drama and more especially not knowing a good number of players.
Players like to cheer for players they feel they have a connection with. But there is a good number of players in the GSL who, even if good, dont have a personal story backing their personality. Guys like Polt, TOP to name a few are hard to cheer for if we can't relate to them in any way.
Reasons I still watch the best/recommended matches.
Because its the highest damn level of Starcraft in the world!
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play 2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg" 3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing
compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders
I think all the matchups have merit, actually. PvP, for example, is so intense and micro-oriented that it's riveting. Watching Huk v Killer had me glued to the edge of my seat sweating like a fish for the entire game! TvT is very positional, but watching the mechanics and tactics fly around in the other matchups is entertaining as well
my take on PvP is it's like a warcraft 3 match that ends in 10 minutes on account of things actually die
there's certainly a skill to it, but the current state of TvT resembles a game of brood war more than any of the other matchups, and as someone who's been following the scene on and off since flash was just that kid who cheesed bisu out, i find it to be the most entertaining matchup
I find TvT to be the most entertaining matchup as well, and In that respect, I think we are in agreement. I think were our views diverge is where you consider other matchups not to play like a proper starcraft 2 matchup. This is likely because I was always a noob in BW, but it seems to me that the other matchups are as Proper as TvT, even if it's less positional. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
For me it's mostly the missing racial diversity. There are just too many terrans in the GSL, which translates to too much TvT. And personally TvT only has 2 things which excite me BFH and/or Drops, the rest ist just boring boring boring. Most of the Code A games are ruined by my own dislike for certain casters, which is entirely my fault, but in addition to the first point led to me not buying a season ticket this time.
Another "problem" is the availability of sc2 related media. If i think that the current GSL is boring i just search TL or google for some other stuff. There're so many tournaments/ replays/ streams and free comments to watch that i'm not forced to pay for a season pass to watch good starcraft. Of course the european and north american tournaments don't produce as much top quality games as GSL, but i personally prefer watching some GOOD protoss and zerg games over watching the 1000th top notch TvT game.
On September 08 2011 06:09 Hybris wrote: As a protoss player, I have lost alot of interest due to the severe lack of protoss players in code s. I still watch those protoss players religiously though.
I find it incredibly hard to even do that. It's painful to watch Toss right now. MC not making it to code S doesn't improve things. I have to admit the TvT is getting to be a bit much.
Code S is supposed to have the best Starcraft players in the world, right?
Well, the majority of Code S is Terran. That means the majority of the matches are TvT's. How can players be called the best in the world where over 50% of their matches are TvT? (or ZvT or PvT)
Shouldn't the best palyers in the world play a fair amount against Protoss and Zerg?
I think we'll end up with a situation, if we haven't already, where some players remain in Code S just because they are excellent against Terran.
For Code S to remain the tournament where the best players in the world prove themselves, there needs to be more Protoss and Zerg.
I do not think GOMTV should be solving this problem.
I do not agree when people mention, the only reason Code S has so many Terrans is because Terran seems to be the most popular race, since most, if not all the Bonjwas were Terran. I'm sure this is partially true, but there's been a steady influx of ever increasing numbers of Terran into Code S. Were this to be true, there would have been a disproportionate number of Terrans in Code S to begin with, which is not true.
I am of the opinion that Terran is imbalanced on a design level with a massive number of viable tech paths as well as viable units at it's disposal. This, with the addition of mules as well as sensor towers. But this is just my opinion.
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play 2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg" 3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing
compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders
I think all the matchups have merit, actually. PvP, for example, is so intense and micro-oriented that it's riveting. Watching Huk v Killer had me glued to the edge of my seat sweating like a fish for the entire game! TvT is very positional, but watching the mechanics and tactics fly around in the other matchups is entertaining as well
my take on PvP is it's like a warcraft 3 match that ends in 10 minutes on account of things actually die
there's certainly a skill to it, but the current state of TvT resembles a game of brood war more than any of the other matchups, and as someone who's been following the scene on and off since flash was just that kid who cheesed bisu out, i find it to be the most entertaining matchup
Oh, come on. Don't reduce WC3 matches to PvP. WC3 games are much more entertaining. You can actually come back if you make a huge mistake, for one, and it's easier for strategy to have a larger effect on the outcome of a game. It's not about who has more units, which is what PvP often comes down to, but about the larger picture.
The larger picture may or may not include lots and lots of towers though. (Infi ...)
On September 08 2011 06:45 hotwings wrote: TvT is like watching nascar, there's a few good moments in an otherwise boooooooring event. If you got the time to sit down and watch all of it, it can be entertaining, otherwise it's not really worth it. Especially with all the other leagues and tournaments going on.
Plus I think SC2 now is past the point of explosive growth in the number of openers and strats so there aren't as many metagame shifting strats as there were in earlier seasons.
This is amusingly ironic, given the space redneck theme of Terran.
GSL is getting borring because there is GSL pretty much everything. When MLG is on, you don't want to miss it and it's exciting. With GSL it's more like "ye, whatever, i'll watch tomorow if I have time".
I'm pretty sure this is one of the main reason why people think GSL is getting borring.
Too boring? Whaaaat!? I love the GSL. I'm up at 5am watching live every day regardless of having a ticket and I've even gotten my dad into it, haha. MLG's are usually boring for me until the last day so I'm always playing some games with it on in the background. Maybe it's just me being too used to BW in that I get way more excited watching Koreans than I do foreigners and in my opinion a lot of foreigner "pros" suck balls. One thing I will agree with though is the Terrans filling up Code S makes me sad. Need a protoss HerO to come wreck shit up.
On September 08 2011 06:50 Sated wrote: 1-game series in the groups? Seriously? A 1-game series tells us nothing. Players can win in the most peculiar ways and it can lead to a really unstable up/down system. Best-of-3 matches would be much better, I don't like watching Best-of-1s at all... which is proabably why I'm also not a fan of most team-leagues that use the GSTL format. The EGMC has a better format IMO, even with the 2v2 matches.
The system is supposed to be unstable, it would be even worse if we always have the same 32 players with maybe a few shifting in and out here and there. Don't we all bitch about the pools at MLG and how players like Haypro and incontrol stick around in pools the entire year because of one good tournament and the pool system giving them a decent finish regardless of how well they do? Is there some reason we want GSL to be that way now?
If players want to stay in Code S, they should have to win some games to do it, I don't see why this is all of a sudden a problem
1. TvT. TBH, it isn't a bad match up to watch, but I'll be damned to watch GSL when I pull up the LR thread and see 3 TvT's, I just can't stand that many...It has gotten to the point where I just don't watch GSL altogether if the day has too much TvT
2. The Bo1 format where someone plays 2-3 games and nothing for the rest of the month. So frustrating to see great players unable to edge out a win and disappear until the up and downs
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Although I'd word it differently, I completely agree. I was a huge GSL fan until it became over populated with Terran domination. Not that I don't give credit to the players, but, at this point, it feels like the same thing, over and over again.
Personally, I love TvT because of how positional based the match-up is. Siege tank and other siege type units make a game like SC2 shine, awarding the better player and allowing people to control space on the map.
Sadly though, there has to be something wrong for that many Terrans to be in Code S, I just think Korean Terrans are on another level and have a more well rounded race at the moment. Either way, I love the GSL and the amount of content it produces, I just want more exciting content and the game to become more stable.
Just because old players are slumping and new faces are beginning to rise means nothing and I can't believe people means this thinks that GSL is losing its touch. All that matters is the quality of game.
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play 2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg" 3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing
compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders
I think all the matchups have merit, actually. PvP, for example, is so intense and micro-oriented that it's riveting. Watching Huk v Killer had me glued to the edge of my seat sweating like a fish for the entire game! TvT is very positional, but watching the mechanics and tactics fly around in the other matchups is entertaining as well
my take on PvP is it's like a warcraft 3 match that ends in 10 minutes on account of things actually die
there's certainly a skill to it, but the current state of TvT resembles a game of brood war more than any of the other matchups, and as someone who's been following the scene on and off since flash was just that kid who cheesed bisu out, i find it to be the most entertaining matchup
If you can explain to me in what way it's entertaining to stare at siege tanks for 30+ minutes, that would be much appreciated because I still don't get it.
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play 2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg" 3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing
compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders
I think all the matchups have merit, actually. PvP, for example, is so intense and micro-oriented that it's riveting. Watching Huk v Killer had me glued to the edge of my seat sweating like a fish for the entire game! TvT is very positional, but watching the mechanics and tactics fly around in the other matchups is entertaining as well
my take on PvP is it's like a warcraft 3 match that ends in 10 minutes on account of things actually die
there's certainly a skill to it, but the current state of TvT resembles a game of brood war more than any of the other matchups, and as someone who's been following the scene on and off since flash was just that kid who cheesed bisu out, i find it to be the most entertaining matchup
Oh, come on. Don't reduce WC3 matches to PvP. WC3 games are much more entertaining. You can actually come back if you make a huge mistake, for one, and it's easier for strategy to have a larger effect on the outcome of a game. It's not about who has more units, which is what PvP often comes down to, but about the larger picture.
The larger picture may or may not include lots and lots of towers though. (Infi ...)
Seriously. I've recently watched some WC3 pro matches and wondered what the fuck I am doing wasting my time watching SC2.
Goes to prove that its micro and army battles that are entertaining to watch, not some guy building up his deathball....
I still watch GSL and enjoy it. I just wish the group stages could have a better format. I don't think anything should be done to the way you get into code S. It's supposed to be the best of the best of the best and the current system ensures that.
On September 08 2011 06:52 starmeat_ wrote: Code S is supposed to have the best Starcraft players in the world, right?
Well, the majority of Code S is Terran. That means the majority of the matches are TvT's. How can players be called the best in the world where over 50% of their matches are TvT? (or ZvT or PvT)
Shouldn't the best palyers in the world play a fair amount against Protoss and Zerg?
I think we'll end up with a situation, if we haven't already, where some players remain in Code S just because they are excellent against Terran.
For Code S to remain the tournament where the best players in the world prove themselves, there needs to be more Protoss and Zerg.
I do not think GOMTV should be solving this problem.
I do not agree when people mention, the only reason Code S has so many Terrans is because Terran seems to be the most popular race, since most, if not all the Bonjwas were Terran. I'm sure this is partially true, but there's been a steady influx of ever increasing numbers of Terran into Code S. Were this to be true, there would have been a disproportionate number of Terrans in Code S to begin with, which is not true.
I am of the opinion that Terran is imbalanced on a design level with a massive number of viable tech paths as well as viable units at it's disposal. This, with the addition of mules as well as sensor towers. But this is just my opinion.
The difference is that each Bonjwa, including Savior, was usually the sole representative person of their race at the time. When Boxer was first popular there weren't many other top Terrans. oov/nada can get a little iffy, but with Savior, no other Zerg came close, and same with Flash. No other Terran is even remotely as good as Flash or can say to be near his equal. Fantasy had moments of brilliance and I'd say he might have gotten the closest, but I also love Fantasy and always root for him so I'm biased. In SC2, Terrans dominate throughout. If you look at the KESPA rankings the top 30 are almost always 1/3 for each race.
On September 08 2011 06:23 TheButtonmen wrote: A lot of the problems I think with GSL code S is Goms structure for group selection is flawed, yes it's fun to watch player chose groups / taunt each other but every single season you get 1 half the bracket completely stacked and the other having 1 or 2 clear winners.
Randomize the groups and I think the overall tournament would improve.
Or even seed the groups based on previous player performance, guaranteeing high-quality games as the tournament progresses, and having some more closely-matched finals games. This would definitely do more to shake things up than bringing in people through an alternative qualification scheme.
Like 1vs32 at one end of the bracket and 2vs31 and the far end?
The only problem with GSL that isn't related to general Starcraft 2 issues (lots of cheesy plays, race representation etc), is that there are WAY too many matches going on.
While short term it might seem like a good idea to have reasonably important games going on basically every day of the week, it's obviously going to lose a lot of its shine after a month or a few, even for the most dedicated fans. MLG's etc are more exciting to watch simply because those are shorter and much wider spread out events, so it feels more involving.
IF GSL has a problem at all, its the same as NASL that it is very very often and that you just cant keep up with watching. the GSL however has done one thing a lot better than the NASL. every match(day) in the GSL is pivotal, while single matches in the regular season of the NASL seem so meaningless.
Well, I still love GSL and I am seeing every bit of it. The atmosphere is what makes MLG special in my opinion (the format really isn't great), but it is unrealistic that a monthly tournament should pull just as many spectators. The atmosphere is usual good at the GSL finals as well, but unfortunately they seems to be cursed with some very one sided finals. An option could be to do the final 8 in a huge final event, but I am not sure that would fit GSL and Korea.
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote: i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play 2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg" 3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing
compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders
I think all the matchups have merit, actually. PvP, for example, is so intense and micro-oriented that it's riveting. Watching Huk v Killer had me glued to the edge of my seat sweating like a fish for the entire game! TvT is very positional, but watching the mechanics and tactics fly around in the other matchups is entertaining as well
my take on PvP is it's like a warcraft 3 match that ends in 10 minutes on account of things actually die
there's certainly a skill to it, but the current state of TvT resembles a game of brood war more than any of the other matchups, and as someone who's been following the scene on and off since flash was just that kid who cheesed bisu out, i find it to be the most entertaining matchup
If you can explain to me in what way it's entertaining to stare at siege tanks for 30+ minutes, that would be much appreciated because I still don't get it.
Not every TvT is the 90 minute Boxer super stamina, killed all my SCV's, having 15 CC's to use just mules, staring at each other at map center, stalemate.
Rarely do you actually sit and stare at siege tanks for 30 minutes. In a GOOD TvT, there will be an element of positioning (the tank lines you talk about) + drops + flanks around those lines, etc.
I understand an over-emphasis on TvT can get boring, in the mental repetitive stress injury sort of way...but the hyperbole that every TvT is a 30 minute tank stand off is just that...hyperbole.
GSL is what it is - the highest skilled tournament in the world bar none. I think it will remain this way for quite some time until we start to see more Korean leagues start up. I still watch it alot and think it's awesome.
Something I would like to change is the Ro32 format...Bo1 isn't the best idea for a tournament of this level.
Thanks to all the balance whiners for turning this thread in crying btw - good job.
The super tournament had some of the worst matches for a gsl caliber tournament. I much prefer the smaller, more elite code S system than a big free for all.
Much to the same degree that in MLG, they focus broadcasts on pool play, instead of the open bracket. Maybe you'll find a gem in the rough, but 98% of those matches won't be worth watching over the obviously more prestigious ones.
gold players and players that don't enjoy high skill matches are the only one's complaining.
TvT has the highest skillcap of the mirror matchups by far.
MvP, Bomber, Nada, Polt, Top, Ryung-- these guys are legitimately good and better players-- mechanics, decision making, macro/micro-- then most players of the other races. Terran attracts more players and always will-- as does the human race in every other rts game.
Players think 30 minute games are "boring", when they ignore the fact that the longer the game goes on the higher the chance the better player wins. 10 minute pvps may be exciting to some people but it is such a coinflip matchup that anyone can win. Naniwa/Huk/Mana can probably take series off any KR Protoss in the world.
I highly doubt the same can be said for MvP, Bomber, Ryung in regards to facing foreign Terrans.
On September 08 2011 06:23 TheButtonmen wrote: A lot of the problems I think with GSL code S is Goms structure for group selection is flawed, yes it's fun to watch player chose groups / taunt each other but every single season you get 1 half the bracket completely stacked and the other having 1 or 2 clear winners.
Randomize the groups and I think the overall tournament would improve.
Or even seed the groups based on previous player performance, guaranteeing high-quality games as the tournament progresses, and having some more closely-matched finals games. This would definitely do more to shake things up than bringing in people through an alternative qualification scheme.
Like 1vs32 at one end of the bracket and 2vs31 and the far end?
Not quite, but sort of. I'd maintain the current group play minitournament thing because that's baller, but seeding of "what tournament do you go into" would be done, and then another round of seeding coming out of group play, of course. If there are any stompfests they'd happen in group play, and the tournament itself will be excellent.
On September 08 2011 06:09 Hybris wrote: As a protoss player, I have lost alot of interest due to the severe lack of protoss players in code s. I still watch those protoss players religiously though.
QFT! I'll pay to watch Code A september, but if it turns out to be dominated by terrans again even if they are in the minority, I won't come back to watch any GSL for a while...
On September 08 2011 06:48 Kazeyonoma wrote: something that confuses me about threads like this is that where are the stats that prove this?
Also, TvT's are apparently awful, but they provide everything everyone complains for. longer games, strategic games, drop play, multiple engagements, varying strategies. non-all ins. macro play, with some cheesy play mixed in. How many TvT's have you seen this GSL that followed the exact same build.
How many games have you watched of PvP's that came down to who 4gated better. or ZvZ on who ling/baned better or who got roaches first.
TvT is one of the few mirror matchups that has a constantly evolving meta game, yet people constantly complain about it.
Sure, of course, TvZ would be awesome to watch, and we do get to see it often, but mirror matches are inevitable. Telling gomtv to somehow not have so many TvT's is kinda stupid. Yes, i know, Protoss is in a bad spot right now, losing to both T 1/1/1's and Z current metagame, but how long did P suffer in BW before Bisu came along and revolutionized the game? I mean, it's weird to me to hear about "getting boring" after just a handful of GSLs. Yes the finals haven't been amazing, but is that Gom's fault? I feel like changing the format won't suddenly make it better.
Players getting stomped by players who are entire tiers better than them are why the finals haven't been as exciting right? How is adding in randoms from an open bracket going to make this more fun? Because occassionally we'll see our favorite heroes get cheesed out by some random unknown?
I love MLG, i Love GSL, i watch both religiously. I fail to see how GSL has declined in it's watchability. Mvp doing as well as he has without relying on 1/1/1 has only made this final even more fun to watch as he takes on Top the underdog who is trying to prove himself to the world.
So can people elaborate why TvT is so boring to watch unless it's the fact that players actually don't like long games, and only want to watch their own races?
well it has a lot to do with terrans doing so well, therefore we see a lot of TvT's
If Protoss or Zergs were dominating and taking over the majority, then you will see people complain about PvP or ZvZ.
I enjoy watching high level TvT, the TOP and Polt series was really good.
As has been discussed to death, but it's because it's always TvT.
I don't even find all the TvT boring, in fact the code A finals was pretty great. It's just that every freaking game is TvT. Maybe the patch will fix it. and Code S will rocket into pure awesome.
GSL is pretty fine for me. I'd like a different format for ups/downs. Like have a code a and code s fight for code s spot instead of round robin format, but I guess they can't do that now since code a winner is guarantee spot.
I believe as a fan you should always want good games first. Any other reason is usually homerism and wrong.
A lot of people in here are complaining about TvT. I think the match-up was great when it was bio/siege tanks vs bio/siege tanks, but the current metagame with blue flame hellions makes for bad games. They rely less on skill and more on getting lucky harassing the workers.
Personally, I'd rather see code A disappear and bring back the 64 man bracket. Whether its group stage or just straight up knockout format like in GSL 2010, I find code A to be sort of a "minor league" in which viewers don't really care for.
The first reply got it down right. I watched the round of 4, but I nearly fell asleep when it was polt vs top. I only watched for July vs MVP, which while being pretty much a retarded steamroll and showing exactly why people call ghosts way too good, was still more entertaining.
The next GSL code S is going to have another 20 or so terrans, with 4 or 5 protoss and 6 or 7 zerg. It's just not fun. It wouldn't be fun if each match up was PvP or ZvZ either, but at least those games tend to end more quickly.
And I know balance whining yada yada, but there really are balance problems when 60% of an SC2 tournament exists out of one race. It decreases the entertainment value for spectators, and blizzard needs to step in if they want to keep SC2 in the running as being a serious e-sport. The next patch is not good enough, it only makes hellions a bit less strong. Ghosts, marines, 1/1/1, etc. are not addressed.
To be fair - I enjoy watching TvT (Nada vs Puma at MLG comes to mind) because of its change in metagame (korean terrans thinking how to beat other koreans terrrans), but there has to be some racial diversity, or else it just becomes stale. Thats why I have stopped watching GSL 1. because of hours, and 2. because it is a bit stale and too common
Have true league play, everyone vs. everyone, with 64 players two out of three months and then, every 3rd month, put top 16 from the previous 2 months in one tourney, 16-32 in another, and 32-64 have to requalify for the next 3 month run in one gigantic 1024 player bo3 tournament. This will build up storylines.
On September 08 2011 06:50 Sated wrote: 1-game series in the groups? Seriously? A 1-game series tells us nothing. Players can win in the most peculiar ways and it can lead to a really unstable up/down system. Best-of-3 matches would be much better, I don't like watching Best-of-1s at all... which is proabably why I'm also not a fan of most team-leagues that use the GSTL format. The EGMC has a better format IMO, even with the 2v2 matches.
The system is supposed to be unstable, it would be even worse if we always have the same 32 players with maybe a few shifting in and out here and there. Don't we all bitch about the pools at MLG and how players like Haypro and incontrol stick around in pools the entire year because of one good tournament and the pool system giving them a decent finish regardless of how well they do? Is there some reason we want GSL to be that way now?
If players want to stay in Code S, they should have to win some games to do it, I don't see why this is all of a sudden a problem
Are you trying to say that you wouldn't have to win games to stay in Code S if a Best of-3 system was used? Erm... Lol?
EDIT: A lot of people bitch about player-retention in pools at MLG.
No, I said you should have to win games to stay in Code S. Currently if you take one game off your group you don't advance, but you don't get knocked down either. Watching the same 32 players each season would be far worse than how it is currently, if you can't do well in your group or during up&down matches then you don't deserve to be in Code S. It should be unstable.
I love the GSL, best tournament, best site. No problem here except when my favorites (nestea) get eliminated or when the finals seem to become a snorefest which sadly it has been for ages. The best games are generally produced by the up and down matches or the RO4.
Also to many terrans.
Also don't say these things like they're facts... if you do weakminded people will suddenly start feeling as if something is a sinking ship and you'll get the NASL startup all over again.
EDIT:
I think the topic is a damned bad idea because I'd never enjoy watching any of my favorites get terminated by some new blood scrub, unless it was insanely good but most probably it'd be cheese.
... well gee, people find a tournament that lasts for a month less interesting than one that lasts a weekend.
You don't have to look any further than that.
Personally I still love the GSL, but I certainly lose interest when my favorite players are knocked out and there are weeks until I'll see them play again. Unlike MLG, where I can continue watching great games the next hours and discuss who might make it instead ...
The main reason I am losing interest in GSL is because of the schedule. Before MLG got big, and other tournaments became big, GSL was the main source of high level play, meaning I would stay up late/get up early to watch. Now with MLG and so many other tournaments and good players streaming, I find no need to watch GSL and lose sleep.
GSL is one of the few tournaments I still find exciting, I used to watch nearly every competition I could but after discovering the difference in skill I'm almost exclusively GSL now.
I think the GSL tournament system promotes the best players that are consistent, something which MLG does not do when you have people such as iNcontroL staying in the Championship Pool despite abysmal results. Even if one player had a strong run for once and gets into Code S, they need to show they are consistent and capable of progressing further in other tournaments.
The problem that I have with the GSL which I have spoken on before, is its frequency. If it took place twice a year, there would be much more hype concerning it, but then that runs the issue of Koreans having one of their few tournaments that they can get to, reduced to a state that it may not be enough to support those who cannot travel to foreign events.
Of course TvT's can be boring to watch, but that can be said of any match-up, of course Moletrap and DOA are not up to the Day[9] and Husky or Tastosis standard but good casters are hard to come by.
I'm a minority voice in this thread, but I'm more concerned about the entertaining, highest-skill level games rather than the entertaining atmosphere.
The only time that i am bored of the GSL is when its later in the rounds and nothing but TvT. Whenever i watch the GSL and theres actually some protoss or zerg playing i couldnt be happier.
Not that i dont like TvT its just, watching the same matchup over and over and over again gets boring.
I responded to some anti-TvT stuff, but never actually responded to the OP...kind of rude of me.
I find GSL very interesting, but in a completely different way than MLG. GSL is like ESPN to me. When I want a high level SC2 fix, it's there. I can login, see some high level games, then go about my day. It's great to "pick up and go".
MLG is more like the Super Bowl (extended over several days). It's something I block time out of my schedule to watch, and I get super hyped for. That doesn't always mean the Super Bowl is more interesting than a random college game on ESPN (sometimes it's not actually), but it is an EVENT that I can get hyped for and follow, maybe throw a viewing party or go to a bar craft with 100 other nerds.
GSL takes up so much time. And when TvT gets played over..and over and over it can take hours..which means i'm not playing SC or watching other streams/games.
So I don't even bother to buy a ticket anymore since all I wanna see is protoss games and there are so few its not worth it.
On September 08 2011 07:06 Kracklings wrote: the video quality just sucks. stay yp till 3am to watch that? hardly worth it when other torunies stream very nice quality
This is actually very true. Almost impossible to see what is going on in battles at this quality
Couple that with a lack of entertaining protoss games and I'm just not very vested in the GSL at all anymore.
I think GSL would do well to have a rebroadcast for America and Europe at reasonable hours. If it were on somewhere around prime time I'd be watching daily. As is, 4am is a tall, tall order. My opinion is to complement GSL we need a tournament akin to OSL or MSL, where only the top 4 survive to the next tournament, and top 12 below that are only guaranteed Ro32 (I think?). The rest is an open tournament that happens every month. That would really spice up the Korean scene and make things super interesting over there.
One of the main problems after following from the start of the sc2 season is that you get attached to a few cirtan pro players. Soon after everything else becomes moot untill those few players come on, then its the time for all the hype. Each and every person attaches to different individuals and when they fail, lose interest in the tournament as a whole (where the whole TvT thing comes in for those who are zerg/protoss).
The big big BIG thing i wish gom would host and feature more is the team play. That element of surprise for a new-coming teammate or all-kill is great. Following team scenes for trading/practicing. Understanding the life and deals behind each player, thats something more eye catching to watch. Its just alot more energetic, overall.
MLG, Dreamhack are events that come every once in a while. GSL is pretty much on all the time, that is why MLG feels more ¨exciting¨ .
All the people saying its because TvT are just being petty. Korean terrans are just too good so they dominate, I honestly can´t say that any of the Terrans in Code S don´t deserve to be there.
And even if TvT was the reason GSTL is still great and you get to see some awesome players from all races(even people playing random!). I love GSL you guys are all crazy
Edit: Just to be clear, I have been buying my season pass since last season. GSL and GSTL at reasonable hours and it glorious HD @___@
On September 08 2011 07:06 cpomz wrote: To be fair - I enjoy watching TvT (Nada vs Puma at MLG comes to mind) because of its change in metagame (korean terrans thinking how to beat other koreans terrrans), but there has to be some racial diversity, or else it just becomes stale. Thats why I have stopped watching GSL 1. because of hours, and 2. because it is a bit stale and too common
Yeah, it has to do with the shear quantity really. I don't mind watching players like Puma, MVP or Bomber go at it, but I really can't be bothered sitting through 2-3 TvT's featuring medicore Terrans just to watch a great TvP/ZvP/TvT
On days like those I've found myself not watching GSL all together.
At least TvT is a decent match up. ZvZ/PvP has its thrills but TvP these days is godawful to watch with all the one base all-ins, feels like we are back in GSL Season 1 :S
To be honest I think the month tournament is to long to keep many peoples attention. MLG is so compacted and everyone can stay excited about it for the whole time it is on. I have a hard time getting excited about GSL for the whole entire month. Also the lack of foreigners does not help there cause. MLG has so few koreans that they have a huge chance of a foreigner knocking out a korean throughout the weekends, which adds to all the excitement.
I love the GSL and I think the format is fine, but too much TvT and overall Terran dominance makes it boring sometimes. I have no interest in watching the finals this season, for example. TvT is my least favorite matchup by far.
I think that your idea is too extreme and as several posters have said, is exactly what GOM didn't want to do. Now, given that, I could see the possibility that 1 or 2 slots for code s (or another small number) qualify from an open bracket. Problem with this approach is that this is already very similar to what Code A is and is the purpose of Code A. Also, I still prefer GOM, the games tend to be better in my oppinion and they have there VOD system almost perfect. MLG only just got their VODS and after watching some NASL with a friend and seeing how terrible their VOD system is I won't be buying that ticket unless I hear good things about it.
I always bought a season ticket so far, but i seriously consider skipping next season. The reason is often said: terrans! I can never understand why a human being can try to play such a game professionally, knowing about the balance issues etc etc. And when i have my favorites in the GSL getting pwned by a bunker rush which i could do after playing 2 weeks terran.. i feel so sorry for every zerg player.
same with the 111 against toss. I dont want to start a balance discussion, im jst saying that i have the feeling that terran players have it so much easier atm than any other race.. therefore i wont continue watching this. I have greatest respect for the pros still trying to keep up with the terrans.. i would have quit long time ago.
I don't hate TvT, but I like the other matchups more.
Or I should say I used to like the others more. Recent GSL games have taken a turn back to the 1 base all-ins (especially in pvt).
So not only am I seeing less of my favorite matchups but the quality of those games has significantly decreased.
I was so pumped to see MVP vs Nestea and then... oh, I guess you can make bunkers there... damn.
I still watch the GSL and the TvTs have been very good recently. But when a tournament is so dominated by a single race it just doesn't have the same appeal to me.
It's funny that you suggest ways to have new blood infused when many new faces are in Code S. I don't understand what people you're referring to but I disagree with them and question their intelligence.
After the patch it will balance out a bit and that will be enough. Plus once the expansion comes out that should REALLY boost interest. I think Code S is fine; it's been a bit unlucky really with the race distribution and especially the finals (lol) but as the skill level increases the games in general get pretty awesome. Like Nestea vs MVP. It's just a shame that was in an early round.
3 x ticket buyer of GSL +chipped in for 1-2 tourne with a bud.
I think if MLG is smart they'll focus on inviting 2 P or 2Z instead of 2 T wherever possible to their tournament. It's their major selling point above having the Foreign players we love.
Current GSL is frankly not worth the cash. I don't think the op's highly complex system would fix that. I Think it's something more fundamental... or maybe something a little more conservative (like the mlg seasons) that would do the trick.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
I don't get this warning. The GSL would be fucking boring if it was all zvz or all pvp, as well, not just tvt. The fact that there's likely going to be a lot of the same [mirror] matchup seems like it will very likely get stale.
I've been a subscriber to GSL since season 1... but I haven't really watched much since May. I think it's more due to overload and improved production values from some of the competition.
Tastosis sets the bar high, and I even tolerate the Kpop, but the seasons are just running into each other now. Also, just being selfish, I liked it better when every match was a Tastosis cast, even though the poor guys were wearing themselves out casting so much.
I'll continue to subscribe, to stay with my support of esport, but there are so many choices out there now!
On September 08 2011 07:00 icarly wrote: gold players and players that don't enjoy high skill matches are the only one's complaining.
TvT has the highest skillcap of the mirror matchups by far.
MvP, Bomber, Nada, Polt, Top, Ryung-- these guys are legitimately good and better players-- mechanics, decision making, macro/micro-- then most players of the other races. Terran attracts more players and always will-- as does the human race in every other rts game.
Players think 30 minute games are "boring", when they ignore the fact that the longer the game goes on the higher the chance the better player wins. 10 minute pvps may be exciting to some people but it is such a coinflip matchup that anyone can win. Naniwa/Huk/Mana can probably take series off any KR Protoss in the world.
I highly doubt the same can be said for MvP, Bomber, Ryung in regards to facing foreign Terrans.
you obviously don't get it. it doesn't matter how good or bad a matchup is, when it's played too much, people will prefer to watch matchups that are less enjoyable. TvT is the most interesting mirror, but rather than watch 30 TvT, people will prefer for example 12 TvT, 10 ZvZ, 8 PvP. Same goes for non-mirror matches. And same goes for real life. You may prefer cola over fanta and sprite, but if you drink cola every day, sooner or later you will supersede it with fanta and sprite, no matter that cola is in your opinion superior to those two drinks. It's called law of diminishing marginal utility and while you call people gold leaguers, they're acting perfectly rational.
On September 08 2011 06:48 Kazeyonoma wrote: something that confuses me about threads like this is that where are the stats that prove this?
Also, TvT's are apparently awful, but they provide everything everyone complains for. longer games, strategic games, drop play, multiple engagements, varying strategies. non-all ins. macro play, with some cheesy play mixed in. How many TvT's have you seen this GSL that followed the exact same build.
How many games have you watched of PvP's that came down to who 4gated better. or ZvZ on who ling/baned better or who got roaches first.
TvT is one of the few mirror matchups that has a constantly evolving meta game, yet people constantly complain about it.
Sure, of course, TvZ would be awesome to watch, and we do get to see it often, but mirror matches are inevitable. Telling gomtv to somehow not have so many TvT's is kinda stupid. Yes, i know, Protoss is in a bad spot right now, losing to both T 1/1/1's and Z current metagame, but how long did P suffer in BW before Bisu came along and revolutionized the game? I mean, it's weird to me to hear about "getting boring" after just a handful of GSLs. Yes the finals haven't been amazing, but is that Gom's fault? I feel like changing the format won't suddenly make it better.
Players getting stomped by players who are entire tiers better than them are why the finals haven't been as exciting right? How is adding in randoms from an open bracket going to make this more fun? Because occassionally we'll see our favorite heroes get cheesed out by some random unknown?
I love MLG, i Love GSL, i watch both religiously. I fail to see how GSL has declined in it's watchability. Mvp doing as well as he has without relying on 1/1/1 has only made this final even more fun to watch as he takes on Top the underdog who is trying to prove himself to the world.
So can people elaborate why TvT is so boring to watch unless it's the fact that players actually don't like long games, and only want to watch their own races?
It's confirmation bias. A vocal, chronically negative subset of the community decided sometime last year that it's a boring matchup, so the 80% of TvTs that are good are just exceptions to the rule, and the 20% that are bad confirm it. Which is sad, because what Blizzard is hearing from the community is that it's boring when actually it's the matchup that they need to study to figure out how make the others more like it, especially other mirrors.
Edit: And yeah, the complaining may be symptomatic of the over-abundance of TvT in the GSL, but half the time complaints are still framed as "TvT is boring".
I'm not bored at all with GSL, I've purchased every GSL main tournament except for July. I'm mostly a vod viewer and I find that in that regard GSL is far superior to MLG because MLG's vods don't buffer which causes it to skip every 10 or so seconds on an imperfect internet connection.
I like MLG, and not just for Starcraft 2 I also enjoy watching their Halo: Reach games, but I hate their vod system which is why I've never subscribed to MLG. Luckily their free live stream works very well for me.
I await the day the god of Starcraft 2 appears, I believe he/she hasn't yet, but when it does I'm fairly certain he/she will be on GSL mainly.
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: What happens is code S will have its NORMAL ro32 action take place, with 16 players advancing to the ro16.
That's a very interesting concept. Hope to see new tournaments go with new set ups like you just mention.
I cant believe how people claim that GSL has no new blood.
Top Players of the past get out of the Tournament in blazing speed while new players get in every month.
Fruit Dealer, oGsInca, SlayersBoxer, Jinro, San, AnyproPrime all players that got Ro4 of the major tournament and dropped out because they couldnt keep up
I also believe that GSL actually has become a lot better nowadays. The UP and Down Matches are very stacked and very entertaining. Code A is actually a very high level tournament now. They also stream the qualifiers of Code A which is also pretty exiting
and MLG ?
well players like incontrol or machine are still in because they had high finishes in the beginning of this year.
Sure MLG has become a lot more entertaining since koreans joined the tournament. but without them it would be pretty boring. So basically I prefer seeing all the koreans duking it out rather then 6 to 7 koreans joining the tournament and getting top 6.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Yeah this sums it up for me. Also, Moletrap. I really feel like he's an awful caster. He is awkward and has no synergy, and I don't care for his voice but that's much less of a complaint.
TvTs however, are fucking gay in such high frequency.
On September 08 2011 07:18 krisss wrote: same with the 111 against toss. I dont want to start a balance discussion, im jst saying that i have the feeling that terran players have it so much easier atm than any other race.. therefore i wont continue watching this. I have greatest respect for the pros still trying to keep up with the terrans.. i would have quit long time ago.
I do agree that the perceived balance problem, and variety of cheese builds possible for Terrans, hurt the entertainment value because no matter the truth, atm they do seem a bit overpowered - as I personally feel is shown in how many mediocre terrans make it far in tournaments compared to mediocre P and Z.
Whether or not that's just perceived or real doesn't really matter, it does hurt the entertainment value if you are one of the players that play P or Z.
(I tend to think it's a mix of balance and the fact that T at release was overpowered, and koreans more so than foreigners chose the perceived strongest race to easier win money, and so, you get a double effect).
There are no games on Saturday/Sunday. There are no Code S/A games on Thursday/Friday.
So while MLG is 3 days over a weekend with an insane number of games, the GSL is now 3 days a week with a really spread out schedule which may or may not have players you are interested in and matchups that are actually interesting. While it's not anyone but Blizzard's fault if certain matchups are uninteresting, having a format that results in that matchup more than the others for the top tier of players is the tournament's fault.
Maybe they should look at expanding the schedule to 1.5x or 2x as long with a longer prize pool but more players in each tier and double elimination.
1. Too many Terrans. Hopefully this will be improved with patches.
2. Too many matches. With the new accelerated Code A and the team league it's basically impossible to keep up with. I wish they would slow it down a little, maybe make each season last twice as long. That would also help them fix problem 3...
3. Bad format. Code S is supposed to be the best of the best, but it's way too volatile. The Bo1 group stage is probably the worst part since it means any player is just 2 game losses away from the up and down matches. So instead of protecting the best of the best, it basically just means that some of the best players get stuck in code A and don't get to compete in the main event for at least a month. A better format would be a 64 person tournament where the group stage was a round robin of Bo3s. Top 32 get invited back next time, the rest have to requalify.
I personally think watching the top players in the world play will never get boring. I don't understand why people would prefer MLG when it's dominated every time by Koreans, some of which are middle of the road Code A/S players. Watching MVP dismantle July in the ro4 reminded me why I love Starcraft 2, the excitement of the GSL. I have never gotten nerd chills in any other tournament besides GSL. I just can't wait until the Finals will have two monster players, instead of the usual romp. (God I'm praying so much for a MVP, Nestea finals next season) Now with that being said, I do think a double elim system could be useful to give more stability to the tournament. Anything can happen in a BO3, especially when the top players in the world are given time to prepare snipe builds.
I took a month off because I was in the same boat as many people, I thought I was over GSL. I returned to it this season, and I am so happy that I did. It is by far the best/most competitive/most exciting/best produced tournament in the world. With a few changes to the format to support a more stable tournament for the players it will only become greater.
I love MLG/Dreamhack/IEM and all the other tournaments, but they just feel like a tournament for Double A players. I can't help but continually think that the players performing well at these tournaments would get wrecked in GSL Code S.
Don't count out GSL, more and more great players will earn a Code S spot. (DRG next season, hopefully players like Puma or a top foreigner could earn a spot at the next MLG) The Code A tournament continues to produce some of the best Code S players, as well as re-motivate former top players, MVP,MKP, Leenock, and hopefully MC.
I love the GSL and will continue to watch until the last of my days in SC2
I think one problem is they don't do the OGN style camera work.
In Broodwar, when something tense is happening, they'll cut the camera for 1 second to show the face of the player at that moment, zoom in, then go back to the action in-game. Sure we might miss a second of action, but seeing the players sweating worried face at that moment adds a lot to the viewing experience IMO.
Instead of that, maybe they can have both players' faces appear in the bottom UI bar in the empty spaces so we can see their facial reactions to in-game events.
I really think being able to see the players' faces more is very important.
You guys can keep insulting people who don't enjoy TvT, but unsiege, move 2 steps left, siege, unsiege, move to steps to the right, repeat... for several minutes before every engagement is clearly not entertaining for some of us. When I watch TvT at the GSL, there are times I want to yell at the screen "attack already so whoever wins wins, jesus!!!"
On the flip side I only bought season passes when more Terrans started making it into code S lol, believe it or not there are some people out there that enjoy it >< and I find the format fine, it eliminates the possibility of randy randoms having a good day in the open and getting bumped immediately to code S...which, you might find odd to have an unknown get through a rigorous open bracket, but it happens...then what would you be complaining about, stale matchups or 1-2 deadweights handing out free wins when the time in code A would sharpen their skills for the transition to up/downs.
Yes that wasn't supposed to be one sentence but I'm quite tired, sorry to those it offended, if need be edit it lmao ><
There are a couple things for me. One is that I don't wanna pay to watch something online. To me it defies the purpose. Another is Jinro. I honestly used to religiously follow GSL to see Jinro's results. Without them there's not a lot I look forward to seeing. It's sort of a tournament between MVP, MC and NesTea, though there are rising stars, of course. Finally, it takes too long. MLG is nice because it happens once a month and it's over in a weekend, which means I'll clear my weekends (and the times work out really well because they start at like 8PM my time) and watch until the finals, it's awesome.
GSL feels too...hard. I have to find times, buy tickets and then watch a lot of games I'm not particularly excited about.
I like TvT's because they evolve all the time and we see clashes of styles bio/mech/air. But about patches to come, if they want to nerf terran early, they must buff his lategame, in particular mech.
On September 08 2011 07:33 sitromit wrote: You guys can keep insulting people who don't enjoy TvT, but unsiege, move 2 steps left, siege, unsiege, move to steps to the right, repeat... for several minutes before every engagement is clearly not entertaining for some of us. When I watch TvT at the GSL, there are times I want to yell at the screen "attack already so whoever wins wins, jesus!!!"
Watch the first season of Code A, everyone taking turns amoving into siegelines
For me personally I prefer a large tournament held over a weekend rather then a league. The excitement just isn't there for me like it used to be. And when you see the same 3 players win it over and over again it becomes very predictable. Like this most recent one the MVP vs Nestea matches, we all know the winner of that match would be the winner of the entire thing
Not sure if its been mentioned already, but the hype surrounding MLG is pretty big compared to GSL. Despite the competition being far better in GSL, MLG is a better story, the crowd goes apeshit, and Casters like day9 can actually lure people who have never watched sc2 before into enjoying the matches.
If you look at the GSL, the crowd gets excited and they enjoy the game, but MLG is a whole different level of hype. This could all change once BW players migrate and commentators are literally jizzing themselves at how good people are. But at present there are only 3-5 players that can "blow your mind". And despite the foreign scene not being as good, they know how to make events fun.
TvT is the only matchup with a legitimate mass air battle. I actually hope that due to late-game TvT, Blizzard will introduce new terran air units to make the matchup more dynamic and exciting. I still go to sleep extra early so that I can wake up extra early for the GSL. GSL has the best of the best, and that's exciting for me.
I think having a major sc tourney like MLG on American soil also has a huge impact. It allows people to actually meet players (foreign and korean). Previously in BW (and still is this way actually) to meet the gosu programers you had to go to Korea. With the tourneys here in the US, and with the player pool still being so god damn good (with a combo of Koreans and foreigners) and with the additional value of EVERYTHING being in English and having Sean and Husky casting (and the casting archon too ) and the timezone and the pace of the league - you just can't beat the entertainment value.
Can't speak for myself but one of my best friends went to Anaheim and got a picture with the emperor himself. Can't get that at 3am watching the GSL when you gotta wake up for work/school/life soon.
The OP really confuses me. I don't think GSL has a problem with "new blood" at all. There's players coming out of nowhere all the time. Bomber and Coca came out of nowhere. Tassadar and Puzzle are really hot right now. Dongraegu and MMA made a name for themselves in the GSTL. And every GSL we see new foreigners in code A.
If anything, I think *MLG* has a problem of lack of "new blood". Besides the Koreans, the only "new player" at MLG Raleigh was Trimaster. Mostly because MLG's point system is pathetic. We've been watching the same pool players all year because its so difficult to get ejected from it.
GSL has a good system for retaining top talent like Nestea/MVP/MC but also allowing new talent the opportunity to pop up. MVP, MKP, and MC have all dropped to Code A at least once, but had no trouble getting back up to Code S. Well MC hasn't made it back into Code S yet, but honestly I don't see anyone in this Code A giving him a challenge besides SC and Select (and his PvT is really good anyways)
On September 08 2011 07:43 julianto wrote: TvT is the only matchup with a legitimate mass air battle. I actually hope that due to late-game TvT, Blizzard will introduce new terran air units to make the matchup more dynamic and exciting. I still go to sleep extra early so that I can wake up extra early for the GSL. GSL has the best of the best, and that's exciting for me.
This is admittedly why I enjoy TvT. Seeing mass vikings and ravens with a few battlecruisers and banshees thrown into the mix is exciting.
Also, watching units walk into tank-lines is pretty entertaining, not gonna lie.
I think alot of players are losing interest in the gsl because: 1) Commentators, tastosis is what started off the gsl, I know they are busy when important matches for example Code A finals, Code S, and all up/down matches should be casted by tastosis. Everyone is used to their style of commentary. When moletrap and doa or wolf moletrap casts up/down matches or the code S matches I basically just turn off the stream and go watch something else.. They criticize players for making some sort of mistakes when they dont even know what they are talking about 2) same thing every gsl. Lots of terran, I dont really mind it but there are alot of players stuck in Code B and Code A that are actually Code S material but cudnt get in bcuz of how hard it is. Example Dongraegu, Leenock but luckily they made it 3) Paying 10 bucks for every season where you only enjoy half the games. I hope gomtv makes it so code S cost like bucks and Code A costs like 5 bucks so i can skip out the Code A which i usually do because of the commentary
disagree thats its losing entertainment. too many terrans imo, but hey, some cool tvt stuff is going on. i still love watching the highest level of play.
I just wish they would change the group selection process. It is so annoying that the huge ego players at the top all pick eachother in the first rounds, and you have 2 groups with 6/8 players who are GSL champions and top10 korean ELO. This season was a perfect example. Groups A and B were insanely stacked, and after the RO16, it was the winner of the group A/B that was the favorite to win the whole GSL. The other side of the bracket was just a bunch of every day Code A/S players, who are good nonetheless, but are not champions.
It is kinda like when Stork and Hydra for OSL set up a group that comprised of Flash/Bisu/Jaedong in the RO32. Yeah, it was super fucking exciting to watch that group, because holy shit just look at it. But once it got to the RO8, it was just Flash on one side, and a bunch of 'average' progamers on the other. He proceeded to roll over everyone no problem.
If the final dramatic rounds of the tournament aren't interesting, then that's all people are going to remember. Every GSL finals has been heavily one sided and not very entertaining to watch. It's been 1 player out-classing the other to a point where it is painfully obvious even to people who aren't very knowledgeable of the game. Let's just recap a little:
Season 1: Actually not that bad of a final, just because it was cool to see Fruit Dealer win it. I don't think too many people are upset about this one. It was the first major prize purse tournament in SC2.
Season 2: Here we go. NesTea vs MKP. Marine scv all-in 5/7 games. Nestea destroys him when he tries to play a 1 rax expand style, finally holds a marine scv all in on the last map. Yawn.
Season 3: MC vs Rain: MC does some type of 1 base all-in, and the one game he does lose, Rain, who happened to cheese 1base his entire way through the tournament, even apologizing publicly for poor games throughout the tournament after knocking out NesTea, does a 1 base all-in. Entire finals lasted maybe an hour. Woopdeedoo. If only it were MC and NesTea in the finals -_-
Season 4: MKP v MVP: Well, mkp tried. He really did. But apparently, seige tanks are good units, and running marines into them for 4 games in a row doesn't win games. Also, fast expanding in a smoke stack on metalopolis in another main, getting it scouted, and then floating it to the gold instead against siege tanks? That was a rough night for mkp fans.
Season 5: MC v July: Another very short 4-1 route against an underwhelming July. MC executes a couple of 1-2 base timing attacks and wins the games.
Season 6: NesTea v Inca: Inca... come here a second... Lemme just go over something with you real quick. If you try and go DTs, and they don't work the first 3 times, why on earth would you go DTs a 4th time? I'm just saying. Possibly the shortest, most 1 sided finals to date, even more so than the mkp v mvp finals. I think they aired more commercial/filler content than in-game content.
Season 7: NesTea v Losira: NesTea demonstrates why he is the best ZvZ in the world. He is one step ahead of Losira for the entire finals. Yet another 4-0 for the GSL finals. The games were kinda cool, but Losira stood no chance. It looked more like a tutorial on how to ZvZ, rather than a competitive GSL finals for $50,000.
Season 8: Top v MVP: Please, let this one sound more positive and promising than the previous Code S finals.
My issue is that I play protoss. Protoss has very little representation in the GSL. I do not learn anything from watching TvT which is the most common matchup. Therefore, while I might watch a TvT finals or semi finals, I do not particularly enjoy watching TvT because there is nothing for me to learn from the matchup. That is the only reason I dont enjoy GSL as much as I used to,
I think this topic is abit skewed in the hardcore viewers perspective, I watch alot of starcraft but I do not have time to ever watch them at their broadcast hours. Thus I mostly watch vods and I think the GSL is the best in the business and I think this topic is overblown but then again, GSL knows their own numbers so I'll wait for them to talk.
I'll be honest, too many TvT's, and not enough Tastosis. And didn't it use to be faster too? Like, code S 5x a week, instead of like 2x? It's harder to keep interest if you spread it out so much. I watch every MLG because it's pure action for 3 days straight. GSL you have to wait and wait all month to have it all play out.
And the time-zone doesn't help at all. If they did a re-stream like NASL/IPL (why don't they?!?!) popularity would probably close to double easily, at least among non-hardcore TL viewers.
Honestly, no re-stream is probably one of the biggest issues GSL will have to deal with to keep high interest among foreign viewers.
On September 08 2011 07:49 zeloso wrote: I think alot of players are losing interest in the gsl because: 1) Commentators, tastosis is what started off the gsl, I know they are busy when important matches for example Code A finals, Code S, and all up/down matches should be casted by tastosis. Everyone is used to their style of commentary. When moletrap and doa or wolf moletrap casts up/down matches or the code S matches I basically just turn off the stream and go watch something else.. They criticize players for making some sort of mistakes when they dont even know what they are talking about 3) Paying 10 bucks for every season where you only enjoy half the games. I hope gomtv makes it so code S cost like bucks and Code A costs like 5 bucks so i can skip out the Code A which i usually do because of the commentary
Yeah actually there are to many commentators, I don't like it at all and if I'd have a complaint it'd be this one.
I don't care if they're great people and save thousands of puppies... listen to the fans please. I don't enjoy Moletrap because even though I see that he is really trying he isn't improving the way that say Husky and HD has (which I admit is admirably much). Moletrap whines about Kyrix not being a good zerg in up and down whilst he himself didn't know Sensortowers don't see cloaked units...
On September 08 2011 07:54 ThaZenith wrote: I'll be honest, too many TvT's, and not enough Tastosis. And didn't it use to be faster too? Like, code S 5x a week, instead of like 2x? It's harder to keep interest if you spread it out so much. I watch every MLG because it's pure action for 3 days straight. GSL you have to wait and wait all month to have it all play out.
And the time-zone doesn't help at all. If they did a re-stream like NASL/IPL (why don't they?!?!) popularity would probably close to double easily, at least among non-hardcore TL viewers.
Honestly, no re-stream is probably one of the biggest issues GSL will have to deal with to keep high interest among foreign viewers.
They spread it out for 2 reasons:
1) to try to get code A done faster because foreigners were complaining about staying an entire month was unreasonable just to see if they had a chance at code S.
2) to squeeze in the new GSTL schedule which is fine by me.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Yeap, Even though you got warned for this, I couldnt agree with you more!
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Hey Terrancraft is fun regardless of the MU aslong as you have great players, the real problem is that you cant root for 1 player consistently without them going into up/down or code A
If you guys find TvT boring then you don't really love starcraft. It's like saying "I hate amusement parks because roller coasters are boring". edit; well that didn't make sense.
Also why bring up MLG in this conversation? There are too many arguments favoring GSL over MLG, most of them are obvious, such as format, skill level, production value, amount of drama...
Sure the GSL's format is far from perfect, but I think it's definitely better than MLG. Playing dozens of competitive games during the span of only 3 days is just insane to me. That's not how RTS are supposed to be played. This stuff definitely seems to be working fine with fighting games and first person shooters, but doesn't seem suited AT ALL for strategy games.
It is what it is: if one wants to display top strategies and top tactics, one absolutely needs time in order to properly prepare and plan. As a spectator I prefer watching GSL games because the players are actually prepared for their opponents, they received specific training and developed specific strategies. I know these matches will feature unique builds, tailor-made strategies and elaborate mind games.
Can you imagine if the Chargers had to play the Patriots, the Giants, the Redskins, and the Raiders all in the same day? That may seem far fetched but that's what MLG looks like to me. There is no way that format can produce the highest level games.
Anyway in my opinion if you win MLG, well congratulations that means you have good stamina and you are well-rounded. Just like a Street Fighter or a MvC3 player. Whereas if you win GSL, that means you're a true master strategist. You're like Napoleon or Flash.
Also don't even get me started on the awful pool system. All in all, that 3-day format really bothers me but it's not just MLG, there's Dreamhack too.
As Mr Chae said, MLG is a festival. Indeed it is a fucking funfair, it's not a genuine RTS tournament to me. It is a 3-day fucking stacked to the max marathon ffs. In conclusion, even though I would love GSL to adapt their format to the growing number of progamers, I'll alway be interested in watching the best players duke it out.
PS: TL used to be THE place to meet true Sc fans but where are they now? The more I read this forum, the more I see casual spectators who are not even THAT interested in the game, but are really interested in making threads to complain about it. TvT boring, seriously?
Honestly, if Code A had to requalified for every "season," and only 4-8 Code S players kept Code S season to season, it would improve the "new blood" factor by a lot.
u cant hav something like a openbracket, cauz gsl is a 1-2 month event and mlg is a 3 day event ~ and u still get every season 5-8 new faces , cauz > open qualifier to code a and new code a players to code S
It's not really just GSL that I've lost interest in, it's more the current trends in sc2 that tend to bore me. I don't feel like Terran is a very exciting race to watch, and there's a lot of those nowadays. I skip TvT games in MLG just as much as I skip them in GSL. On top of that, all the one base all-in's recently (in any matchup) are just as boring.
I guess what I'm personally waiting for is the actual game to become more interesting, and I'm sure I'll be back to watching every tournament out there again.
the whole relegation idea was neat at the beginning but I agree that it's starting to get boring and wish that anyone would have a shot like in BW.
A player only needs to win 1 game to remain in Code S but someone who rips through code B, gets to the finals and loses, and then goes third in his up or down group has to stay in Code A for another season, that just doesn't seem fair to me.
For me the major problem is the casters, It's not that i do not like Doa, moletrap, Wolf casting but it just seems like they give up too quickly on games and dont build up enough hype for players especially in situations where they are behind.
SO you want a qualifier to insert new blood into code S?
I believe they have something like that called code A... and that has a qualifier aswell. Making Code A double elimination would be cool but that would not be feasible.
On September 08 2011 08:05 AlBundy wrote: If you guys find TvT boring then you don't really love starcraft. It's like saying "I hate amusement parks because roller coasters are boring".
Also why bring up MLG in this conversation? There are too many arguments favoring GSL over MLG, most of them are obvious, such as format, skill level, production value, amount of drama...
Sure the GSL's format is far from perfect, but I think it's definitely better than MLG. Playing dozens of competitive games during the span of only 3 days is just insane to me. That's not how RTS are supposed to be played. This stuff definitely seems to be working fine with fighting games and first person shooters, but doesn't seem suited AT ALL for strategy games.
It is what it is: if one wants to display top strategies and top tactics, one absolutely needs time in order to properly prepare and plan. As a spectator I prefer watching GSL games because the players are actually prepared for their opponents, they received specific training and developed specific strategies. I know these matches will feature unique builds, tailor-made strategies and elaborate mind games.
Can you imagine if the Chargers had to play the Patriots, the Giants, the Redskins, and the Raiders all in the same day? That may seem far fetched but that's what MLG looks like to me. There is no way that format can produce the highest level games.
Anyway in my opinion if you win MLG, well congratulations that means you have good stamina and you are well-rounded. Just like a Street Fighter or a MvC3 player. Whereas if you win GSL, that means you're a true master strategist. You're like Napoleon or Flash.
Also don't even get me started on the awful pool system. All in all, that 3-day format really bothers me but it's not just MLG, there's Dreamhack too.
As Mr Chae said, MLG is a festival. Indeed it is a fucking funfair, it's not a genuine RTS tournament to me. It is a 3-day fucking stacked to the max marathon ffs. In conclusion, even though I would love GSL to adapt their format to the growing number of progamers, I'll alway be interested in watching the best players duke it out.
PS: TL used to be THE place to meet true Sc fans but where are they now? The more I read this forum, the more I see casual spectators who are not even THAT interested in the game, but are really interested in making threads to complain about it. TvT boring, seriously?
I think we can agree on a lot of things here. I remember the Hellion Elevator build being so dominant in MLG and so not-a-thing afterwards as Zerg players quickly figured it out-- something that wasn't possible during the 3-day MLG span.
I find MLG to be enormously entertaining, and I usually watch several games from it, especially those from my favorite players. But I don't set aside $10/month for MLG, I set it aside for GSL.
On September 08 2011 08:05 AlBundy wrote: If you guys find TvT boring then you don't really love starcraft. It's like saying "I hate amusement parks because roller coasters are boring". edit; well that didn't make sense.
Also why bring up MLG in this conversation? There are too many arguments favoring GSL over MLG, most of them are obvious, such as format, skill level, production value, amount of drama...
Sure the GSL's format is far from perfect, but I think it's definitely better than MLG. Playing dozens of competitive games during the span of only 3 days is just insane to me. That's not how RTS are supposed to be played. This stuff definitely seems to be working fine with fighting games and first person shooters, but doesn't seem suited AT ALL for strategy games.
It is what it is: if one wants to display top strategies and top tactics, one absolutely needs time in order to properly prepare and plan. As a spectator I prefer watching GSL games because the players are actually prepared for their opponents, they received specific training and developed specific strategies. I know these matches will feature unique builds, tailor-made strategies and elaborate mind games.
Can you imagine if the Chargers had to play the Patriots, the Giants, the Redskins, and the Raiders all in the same day? That may seem far fetched but that's what MLG looks like to me. There is no way that format can produce the highest level games.
Anyway in my opinion if you win MLG, well congratulations that means you have good stamina and you are well-rounded. Just like a Street Fighter or a MvC3 player. Whereas if you win GSL, that means you're a true master strategist. You're like Napoleon or Flash.
Also don't even get me started on the awful pool system. All in all, that 3-day format really bothers me but it's not just MLG, there's Dreamhack too.
As Mr Chae said, MLG is a festival. Indeed it is a fucking funfair, it's not a genuine RTS tournament to me. It is a 3-day fucking stacked to the max marathon ffs. In conclusion, even though I would love GSL to adapt their format to the growing number of progamers, I'll alway be interested in watching the best players duke it out.
PS: TL used to be THE place to meet true Sc fans but where are they now? The more I read this forum, the more I see casual spectators who are not even THAT interested in the game, but are really interested in making threads to complain about it. TvT boring, seriously?
Roller coasters can be fun.
An entire theme park filled with the same roller coaster is not as fun.
On September 08 2011 06:09 Hybris wrote: As a protoss player, I have lost alot of interest due to the severe lack of protoss players in code s. I still watch those protoss players religiously though.
Pretty much my story also. I very rarely watch games that don't involve protoss. I enjoy the occasional zvt match, but don' t have any interest in other ones. The amount of GSL matches I watch is a direct function of how many protosses are playing.
On September 08 2011 08:05 AlBundy wrote: If you guys find TvT boring then you don't really love starcraft. It's like saying "I hate amusement parks because roller coasters are boring". edit; well that didn't make sense.
Also why bring up MLG in this conversation? There are too many arguments favoring GSL over MLG, most of them are obvious, such as format, skill level, production value, amount of drama...
Sure the GSL's format is far from perfect, but I think it's definitely better than MLG. Playing dozens of competitive games during the span of only 3 days is just insane to me. That's not how RTS are supposed to be played. This stuff definitely seems to be working fine with fighting games and first person shooters, but doesn't seem suited AT ALL for strategy games.
It is what it is: if one wants to display top strategies and top tactics, one absolutely needs time in order to properly prepare and plan. As a spectator I prefer watching GSL games because the players are actually prepared for their opponents, they received specific training and developed specific strategies. I know these matches will feature unique builds, tailor-made strategies and elaborate mind games.
Can you imagine if the Chargers had to play the Patriots, the Giants, the Redskins, and the Raiders all in the same day? That may seem far fetched but that's what MLG looks like to me. There is no way that format can produce the highest level games.
Anyway in my opinion if you win MLG, well congratulations that means you have good stamina and you are well-rounded. Just like a Street Fighter or a MvC3 player. Whereas if you win GSL, that means you're a true master strategist. You're like Napoleon or Flash.
Also don't even get me started on the awful pool system. All in all, that 3-day format really bothers me but it's not just MLG, there's Dreamhack too.
As Mr Chae said, MLG is a festival. Indeed it is a fucking funfair, it's not a genuine RTS tournament to me. It is a 3-day fucking stacked to the max marathon ffs. In conclusion, even though I would love GSL to adapt their format to the growing number of progamers, I'll alway be interested in watching the best players duke it out.
PS: TL used to be THE place to meet true Sc fans but where are they now? The more I read this forum, the more I see casual spectators who are not even THAT interested in the game, but are really interested in making threads to complain about it. TvT boring, seriously?
Part of the appeal of watching GSL is learning new strategies and finding things that professional players are doing that I could be emulating. Some of us don't just view GSL as an entertaining television show, but sort of an instruction manual as well. Watching a few really good TvT matches can be fun, but it's almost never going to make me a better protoss player.
Imbawhine: It's also getting a little boring in general when the game is balanced in a way that makes certain matchups extremely predictable or one sided. I think we all know what I'm talking about...
GSL is simply too hard to watch if you don't pay for VODS. I would pay if I could but I can't afford anything atm. MLG is very ez watch times and only lasts for 3days (minimal time needed to follow everything going on).
If GSL was rebroadcasted or something at an earlier time I would def be watching every single person I have a slight interest in. But atm I have to screw up my sleep schedule just to watch my favorites, I don't even try anymore to watch people I don't know, simply not worth it.
Also as mentioned alrdy TvT is very boring, at least imo it is. I thought it was the most boring in BW and I still think it is today. Also I think Foreign vs Korean games are much funner to watch because theres that added excitement that we might see some huge under-dog come from behind win.
In my opnion it's all of the TvT's. I watch GSL, while my friends and i talk over Mumble. As soon as a TvT comes on we just start playing SC2. They are just sooooooooooooooooooo boring to watch.
I'm not saying it's the definitive reason, but it's why i stop watching it alot of the time.
Goodbye code S next SS lol. I won't buy ticket though, wish they would sell code A separately cuz there's more Protoss and Zerg to watch rather than TvT.
New seasons with new strats will come about. I will continue to watch GSL because that is where I will see the best play. Hands down. It might be flooded with TvT for now. But there is so much more than Code S... I enjoy everything GSL has brought to me. MLG is fun and has some crazy games when it comes around but it's obvious their is MORE solid play in GSL.
As long as I am up with my daughter in the morning I will always continue watching GSL
MLG is always amazing to watch and entertaining as hell as well. Basically if it is a major tournament I am gonna watch it no matter what the match-ups are. I love SC2
On September 08 2011 08:05 AlBundy wrote: If you guys find TvT boring then you don't really love starcraft. It's like saying "I hate amusement parks because roller coasters are boring". edit; well that didn't make sense.
I know you caught the fact the statement makes no sense all on your own, but I would still like to point out that TvT is not a rollercoaster, it's a Merry-go-Round, and sometimes it's a Ferris Wheel. Every once in a while, it's a Tilt-a-Whirl. And I would definitely hate any amusement park with nothing but those 3 rides.
On September 08 2011 07:53 ZeromuS wrote: My issue is that I play protoss. Protoss has very little representation in the GSL. I do not learn anything from watching TvT which is the most common matchup. Therefore, while I might watch a TvT finals or semi finals, I do not particularly enjoy watching TvT because there is nothing for me to learn from the matchup. That is the only reason I dont enjoy GSL as much as I used to,
How most Protoss players feel summed up perfectly.
i don't watch GSL as much anymore because i can't stay up till 5 am every night and i'm not going to pay over $100 dollars just to watch an entire year of one tournament. they need to rebroadcast it, simple as that. it makes no sense for them to expect me us to be up early in the morning for potentially 3 hours.
On September 08 2011 08:05 AlBundy wrote: If you guys find TvT boring then you don't really love starcraft. It's like saying "I hate amusement parks because roller coasters are boring". edit; well that didn't make sense.
Also why bring up MLG in this conversation? There are too many arguments favoring GSL over MLG, most of them are obvious, such as format, skill level, production value, amount of drama...
Sure the GSL's format is far from perfect, but I think it's definitely better than MLG. Playing dozens of competitive games during the span of only 3 days is just insane to me. That's not how RTS are supposed to be played. This stuff definitely seems to be working fine with fighting games and first person shooters, but doesn't seem suited AT ALL for strategy games.
It is what it is: if one wants to display top strategies and top tactics, one absolutely needs time in order to properly prepare and plan. As a spectator I prefer watching GSL games because the players are actually prepared for their opponents, they received specific training and developed specific strategies. I know these matches will feature unique builds, tailor-made strategies and elaborate mind games.
Can you imagine if the Chargers had to play the Patriots, the Giants, the Redskins, and the Raiders all in the same day? That may seem far fetched but that's what MLG looks like to me. There is no way that format can produce the highest level games.
Anyway in my opinion if you win MLG, well congratulations that means you have good stamina and you are well-rounded. Just like a Street Fighter or a MvC3 player. Whereas if you win GSL, that means you're a true master strategist. You're like Napoleon or Flash.
Also don't even get me started on the awful pool system. All in all, that 3-day format really bothers me but it's not just MLG, there's Dreamhack too.
As Mr Chae said, MLG is a festival. Indeed it is a fucking funfair, it's not a genuine RTS tournament to me. It is a 3-day fucking stacked to the max marathon ffs. In conclusion, even though I would love GSL to adapt their format to the growing number of progamers, I'll alway be interested in watching the best players duke it out.
PS: TL used to be THE place to meet true Sc fans but where are they now? The more I read this forum, the more I see casual spectators who are not even THAT interested in the game, but are really interested in making threads to complain about it. TvT boring, seriously?
I agree 100% with this post. MLG is more of a stamina game than a strategy game, even though I enjoy it too. I do like that GSL allows for more mindgames and actual strategy and preparation to take place(especially now with the extended GSTL).
MLG is fine too, but its obviously more catered to more casual fans who want to just want hype and WWE antics and all that crap. Which is fine too they can like whatever they want but it just shows that...... some people are just not too into SC2 and just love the hype. Kinda reminds me of the people who only watch soccer when its the World cup and they are now suddenly soccer fans lol
TvT is not boring IMO its actually a pretty dynamic matchup.
Even tho they are exciting to watch, it hurts Code S and Code A value. It would be muuuuuuch more exciting if the first set of losers from Code S had to fight to stay in Code S by themselves instead of the U&D matches.
Top X from Code A should receive DIRECT Code S spot for THE SAME season. Code A ends right before Code S start, allowing for a single player (if skilled enough) to WIN BOTH TOURNAMENTS.
Code A finalists should get MORE PRIZES for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. 4th ... [X number] should get just the Code S seed and nothing else. OR 1st get to participate on the Code S tournament while 2nd+3rd+4th ... [X number] get just the seeding + small prize.
Bottom X Code S players are dropped to Code A for the next season.
[X beeing a magic number greater or equal to 4 players]
if there are good racial distribution, like 30%-30%-40% even favor the terran a bit, but fans of every race will have their race to watch out for every round. It would be much better. That will bring much more viewers I think, It is not Gom's fault btw, I just think if they can make some Toss and Zerg favored map to play on GSL like in BroodWar, so that win rate can balance out a bit. TvT is fun too watch though, but seeing too much of I find it kind of "no more fun to watch", I used to watch all the VODs when I miss live game, but no longer now, I only find some VODs of PvX now.
I don't really see that much a problem right now. Code S is ridiculous to get into and you know what, it's meant for the best of the best. Although I suspect for Koreans, winning MLG is actually the easier way haha.
On September 08 2011 07:53 ZeromuS wrote: My issue is that I play protoss. Protoss has very little representation in the GSL. I do not learn anything from watching TvT which is the most common matchup. Therefore, while I might watch a TvT finals or semi finals, I do not particularly enjoy watching TvT because there is nothing for me to learn from the matchup. That is the only reason I dont enjoy GSL as much as I used to,
Same for me. I don t like watching games without Protoss. I would have no one to cheer for
Don't think there's anything wrong with Code S by itself. It has the best players (mostly), the best commentators, and the best production. You can't compare MLG to GSL. They are not in competition with each other.
With that being said, I'm going to agree with everyone else in this thread. Far too many Terrans makes for very dull viewing. Especially when the few P's and Z's get knocked out early. TvT is one of the more bearable mirror matches, but it's not something I can show my friends and say, "hey, this is why I love watching StarCraft". To most people, it is boring and nothing else. And I don't blame them for thinking that at all.
too many Terrans in GSL, after 15 TvT's a week I'm, honestly sick of it :/
Actually I enjoy Code A a bit more than Code S at the moment, mainly because of the "dropped down to Code A but wanna fight back to the top" thing, foreigner Code A spots, the overall increasing skill level as Code A is also stacked as hell these days, watching new talents who made it throught the qualifiers...
Guys, keep in mind the GSL mainly is a TV show, MLG is a big gaming circuit/event.
On September 08 2011 08:19 Herculix wrote: i don't watch GSL as much anymore because i can't stay up till 5 am every night and i'm not going to pay over $100 dollars just to watch an entire year of one tournament. they need to rebroadcast it, simple as that. it makes no sense for them to expect me us to be up early in the morning for potentially 3 hours.
100$ a year really isn't that much it's 10 at pop.
I'll pay my 40 odd cents for unlimited access to the highest level of sc2
GSL has been out for a year - things lose their novelty... yet still I don't think they've lost the magic at all
Gsl is supposed to be this way. If else we would see luck playing a large role.what they need is other smaller korean tournaments to get bug to highlight lesser known players
I enjoy MLG more because it's played in one weekend. Players don't get to practice against specific opponents and subsequently can't really play with prepared builds. As a result you see more creative openings and play in general. There´s more tension, more chances for upsets and more emotion. Oh and also Day9.
On September 08 2011 08:22 Zzoram wrote: GSL needs a discounted GSTL + GSL bundle, and perhaps a cheaper rate 12 month bundle instead of just monthly option.
On September 08 2011 08:27 MusiK wrote: Gsl is supposed to be this way. If else we would see luck playing a large role.what they need is other smaller korean tournaments to get bug to highlight lesser known players
I think If you could spend sometimes watching those ICCup korean weekly, It is pretty good. The sad thing is Only GSL is LAN in korea, and cast on play. ICCup is kind of replay cast and by Doa & Moletrap. Either way, there are not so much for real SC2 fans and players to watch nowadays, I only watch GSL, MLG, and the qualifier of IPL3 if there is interesting game on. Some korean weekly if have Toss on, some stream of good Toss players if I have time Here is my top Watch list SC2 tour for the next period: GSL MLG IPL3 NASL
double elimination is needed for gsl. The finals would finally be good. Also why are they sucking millions in fees from foreigners without ever giving them a decent time to watch.
They need to rebroadcast matches and improve the stream quality. The GSL is boring to foreigners, because it's difficult to follow. GomTV came out with a terrible business model for foreign fans, it's no surprise that people are losing interest. Why would someone pay money, when they have readily available and convenient options for free.
The only reason I am watching GSL these days is because of Dan and Nick, when the random selection of other annoying voices is on, I turn it off. Its really rare that I watch because of the players ( go Huk!!! ).
On September 08 2011 08:21 leandroqm wrote: The reason? UP & DOWN MATCHES!
Even tho they are exciting to watch, it hurts Code S and Code A value. It would be muuuuuuch more exciting if the first set of losers from Code S had to fight to stay in Code S by themselves instead of the U&D matches.
Top X from Code A should receive DIRECT Code S spot for THE SAME season. Code A ends right before Code S start, allowing for a single player (if skilled enough) to WIN BOTH TOURNAMENTS.
Code A finalists should get MORE PRIZES for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. 4th ... [X number] should get just the Code S seed and nothing else. OR 1st get to participate on the Code S tournament while 2nd+3rd+4th ... [X number] get just the seeding + small prize.
Bottom X Code S players are dropped to Code A for the next season.
[X beeing a magic number greater or equal to 4 players]
What do you guys think?
I'd disagree with that. The point of the Up and Down matches is to determine who is actually good enough to enter Code S and who should move down to Code A. It's purpose is to both allow "new blood" into Code S, and to allow the players who are no longer playing at the height of the abilities to be moved down to Code A, directly based on their abilities matched against other Code A and low-Code S players.
For example, although Ryung didn't qualify for the July Up and Downs at first, he did win a wildcard tournament for the chance to be in the Up and Downs, and proceeded to go 4-0 in his group.
In that Up and Down alone we had 6 players qualify in one way or another for Code S, who previously weren't qualified. MMA, Keen, Ryung and Puzzle all did well in Code S August.
In fact, none of the players who moved up to Code S from Code A actually went back to the Up and Downs.
This proves that the Up and Down matches allow players to move up to Code S and stay there if they're good enough. Even Noblesse beat MC, who many people believe to be high level Code S material.
BUT The Up and Downs give players like Keen and aLive, who stayed in Code S through the Up and Downs, a chance to redeem themselves and prove they're still better than the new blood in Code A. I'd say its a perfectly fare system with a bit more memory than simply dumping down the worst Code S players and promoting the best Code A in their place. It makes sure that just because someone like MC looses in code S doesn't mean he's out quite yet. He did end up dropping down to code A, but that's after he went 0-2 in Code S AND 1-3 in code A. The more matches a player plays, the better idea we have of their true skill at the moment, and obviously MC doesn't have what it takes to make in Code S. But at least he had the chance to redeem himself in the Up and Downs first (or in this case, to prove that he did indeed deserve to be bumped down too Code A).
Ok, now that that's out of the way I guess it's time for people to complain and try to tell me that playing less games is somehow a better way to determine someone's skill.... And I'll point out that theres a reason semi-finals are bo5 and finals are bo7...
Ok, and as for the whole aspect of whether GSL is more fun to watch or not, here's my view on things:
MLG is a fun event, and I won't begin to deny that, but the way MLG is designed it's designed to allow as many people play and get into the tournament as possible... And yet we only see a fraction of the games, even between the top players. We don't get all the games casted, there are plenty of storylines we never hear abut because of that. Even if some guy comes through the open stage and crushes face, they still only get a half decent seed later on (I think.... I don' actually know, because their rules are too complicated <_<). I wonder how well Trimaster will do at the next MLG, because unless he has suddenly just had a breakthrough in his game, he may well disappear into relative obscurity again.
The GSL on the other hand allows players who have been staying in korea and working towards it to have a stage to showcase their abilities with enough time to prepare new builds, new styles, or simply beat people at the current game, depending on how they feel like playing, and yet still offers enough memory in it's system to allow players who are slumping a bit an extra chance to keep going strong. The whole design of the tournament allows for the best players to actually play at their best, provided they're not traveling too much etc. outside of the GSL. It just happens that at this time Terrans are tearing it up.. The same sort of thing happened in broodwar plenty of times, where one race just seemed to be better than the others, and SC2 isn't immune to that effect.
Both the GSl and MLG have their merits, and their issues. GSL has somewhat poor english production quality, inaccessable hours (and yes, I do believe that GOM should rebroadcast later that day, it's not hard to set up a recorded broadcast to show again at a later date), and the issue of TvTs being quite common, as well as teams of casters that are not as well loved as Tastosis. MLG however has too many games, we dont get to see all the really good ones, and can cause problems for the players with the insane ruleset.
I consider the GSL to be my "staple" tournament, especially since it's spread out over months, rather than a few days. MLG is the "holy crap, this event is gonna be cool" feeling where it's got a lot of hype, a lt of cool casting combinations, and lots of stuff to watch.
I think GOM is failing really bad with the hype around GSL and GSTL. You don't get awesome hype videos ala BW, you wont see any sort of footage of your favorite player or anything like this. And most of the games aint that good either.
The only problem with GSL is that there are no fangirls, fanclubs, and no "hype."
"3...2...1... LEE JAE DONG HWAITING!!! 2...1... KIM TAEK YONG HWAITING!" If you've never heard fanclubs screaming for players in Brood War events you haven't lived. This is something I really miss from BW. People don't seem to get as excited over just seeing their favorite players play as they used to.
It's strange: though the games are often just as tactical and exciting, you never hear the fans cheering, or see very many cuts to a crowd going crazy. Sometimes Tastosis doesn't put much energy into building tension and hyping up unexpected events at GSL. At MLGs, by contrast, you have people going nuts for the incredible plays from pros, you have hype, people cheering, and loud reactions to unexpected plays. People want autographs, to take pictures, and there's a community atmosphere. I think part of the problem is GOM's tiny studio.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Very sadly, this is the reason i stopped watching GSL.
i used to watch gsl just because wanted to see idra's hardwork for those years in korea pay off and now i just watch because tasteless and artosis are pretty funny. I haven't watched the finals since nestea rolled that cheesy protoss and could care less who does well and wins. I miss the atmosphere that brood war games had. I dont know if it was the music, screaming girls, yelling korean commentators, or the flashing lights and camera movements. Just felt cooler. I also watch only the free video and with the new high graphics with lights and lasers everywhere it is hard to see what the hell is going on sometimes. MLG is my favorite to watch with all good commentators and better atmosphere and I enjoy seeing foreigners do well.
The complaints against GOM in this thread are so ridiculous.
I can't believe you guys expect free HQ streaming for a production of this quality and magnitude that is done in KOREA.
Oh, its too hard to follow? Then pay for the premium package, you'll get HQ streaming and access to all the VODs, which are posted almost instantly after the games are finished.
The format sucks? Then what would you suggest and implement that would be better, more effective, etc? GOM is constantly doing their best to update their format and improve it to better their league/tournament. Can't hate them for trying to create the best league possible. Leagues and tournaments need a certain level of volatility. People complain about wanting to see new blood, but without volatility it would always be the same "top players." And other people just want to see the "top players" then watch invitationals.
Blahblah match-up suck/is boring. So suddenly GOM has control over who plays in their tournament and what race they play? GOM has no control over how good the players are, and more specifically what kind of results they produce. Would you prefer GOM edit maps to be specifically disadvantaged for that race? Or if they barred players of a specific race from playing? That would be stupid. If you have problems with balance go whine to Blizzard.
Back in the days of BW people followed a LR thread religiously waiting for a TLer living in Korea to update them on what was actually happening in the games. There were no streams, but people still stayed up late just to read periodic lines of text updating them on what was happening.
You new "SC fans" are spoiled. Appreciate the fact that eSports has grown to this level.
On September 08 2011 08:55 bokchoi wrote: The complaints against GOM in this thread are so ridiculous.
I can't believe you guys expect free HQ streaming for a production of this quality and magnitude that is done in KOREA.
Oh, its too hard to follow? Then pay for the premium package, you'll get HQ streaming and access to all the VODs, which are posted almost instantly after the games are finished.
The format sucks? Then what would you suggest and implement that would be better, more effective, etc? GOM is constantly doing their best to update their format and improve it to better their league/tournament. Can't hate them for trying to create the best league possible. Leagues and tournaments need a certain level of volatility. People complain about wanting to see new blood, but without volatility it would always be the same "top players." And other people just want to see the "top players" then watch invitationals.
Blahblah match-up suck/is boring. So suddenly GOM has control over who plays in their tournament and what race they play? GOM has no control over how good the players are, and more specifically what kind of results they produce. Would you prefer GOM edit maps to be specifically disadvantaged for that race? Or if they barred players of a specific race from playing? That would be stupid. If you have problems with balance go whine to Blizzard.
Back in the days of BW people followed a LR thread religiously waiting for a TLer living in Korea to update them on what was actually happening in the games. There were no streams, but people still stayed up late just to read periodic lines of text updating them on what was happening.
You new "SC fans" are spoiled. Appreciate the fact that eSports has grown to this level.
Erm, yes? That's one of the major features of custom maps, imo. If Terrans is dominating and winning 66% (number pulled out of my ass) in the GSL, create maps that are less Terran friendly in order to get that number down. That's what they've been doing in BW for god knows how long, and it was the exact reason why maps like Tal Darim were produced.
There's so much they could learn/copy from professional BW. The tournament structure making it possible to get through qualifiers and win the championship during the same tournament, giving higher seeds to players who go deep in the brackets, rearranging brackets in Ro8/something according to GSL points to prevent top candidates meeting before the finals, make tournaments last longer to build up the hype and make winning the championship more prestigeous. Code S/Code A separation is just stupid in my view. TvT sucks when it's over half of the matches but what can GomTV do? It's ultimately up to the players to win games.
About GSTL: I do love winner stays on/all-kill format where players just go godmode and demolish the other team but only when it's a special treat like in BW. Most of the season is played in the "normal" format and teams can't rely on their ace players to single-handedly win matches and you actually have to have depth in your roster.
The overall production value has a lot of room for improvement aswell. The graphics used to be really goofy and not so professional looking (I still remember those military ranks they had in the open seasons, seriously wtf) compared to OGN broadcasts for example and they still somewhat are. Use a consistent theme throughout the GSL/broadcasts and keep it simple. Just watch OGN/MBCGame and you'll understand what I mean. Camerawork is ok but as someone mentioned they have to be quick to catch those moments.
I really don't know or understand the technical difficulties and obstacles but the SQ stream is just pathetic, you barely can follow what's going on (income/supplies/production). I've supported ESPORTS a couple of times but the HQ stream is still pretty lame when I get full HD goodness and relatively good games for free from tournaments like Dreamhack or Assembly. The VOD service is great but VODs don't really cut it for me. Lower the prices or improve the quality.
And more Tastosis. Probably wishful thinking.
Don't know if this makes any sense at all or if it's just nitpicking. Just my two cents.
On September 08 2011 08:55 bokchoi wrote: The complaints against GOM in this thread are so ridiculous.
I can't believe you guys expect free HQ streaming for a production of this quality and magnitude that is done in KOREA.
Oh, its too hard to follow? Then pay for the premium package, you'll get HQ streaming and access to all the VODs, which are posted almost instantly after the games are finished.
The format sucks? Then what would you suggest and implement that would be better, more effective, etc? GOM is constantly doing their best to update their format and improve it to better their league/tournament. Can't hate them for trying to create the best league possible. Leagues and tournaments need a certain level of volatility. People complain about wanting to see new blood, but without volatility it would always be the same "top players." And other people just want to see the "top players" then watch invitationals.
Blahblah match-up suck/is boring. So suddenly GOM has control over who plays in their tournament and what race they play? GOM has no control over how good the players are, and more specifically what kind of results they produce. Would you prefer GOM edit maps to be specifically disadvantaged for that race? Or if they barred players of a specific race from playing? That would be stupid. If you have problems with balance go whine to Blizzard.
Back in the days of BW people followed a LR thread religiously waiting for a TLer living in Korea to update them on what was actually happening in the games. There were no streams, but people still stayed up late just to read periodic lines of text updating them on what was happening.
You new "SC fans" are spoiled. Appreciate the fact that eSports has grown to this level.
Erm, yes? That's one of the major features of custom maps, imo. If Terrans is dominating and winning 66% (number pulled out of my ass) in the GSL, create maps that are less Terran friendly in order to get that number down. That's what they've been doing in BW for god knows how long, and it was the exact reason why maps like Tal Darim were produced.
Actually, I'm pretty sure they did this for the Code A qualifiers. IIRC, the maps they played on were Zerg- and Protoss-favored maps.
I watch th GSL almost every day, I love the team league aswell as the normal leagues. I guess what you can't put your finger on is the fact that the level of play is much higher at the GSL and hence for the low tier players and "not as-hardcore" fans, it is not as entertaining (less crazy basetrade games etc).
Once a year they should have a tournament where each korean pro team chooses 3 or so players from there lineup depending on Teamleague results and have a 32 man tourny like that. Can't think or another way to have the best players inside a tournament.
For me the #1 contributor to my diminishing interest in GSL is that it's nearly impossible to watch live. VODs are nice and everything but it's just not quite the same. I try to stay up sometimes to watch matches I'm excited a bout but usually fall asleep like hafl way through the first or second game.
I am admitting that I haven't read much of the OP but I do not believe code S is losing its entertainment value. It is the most important esports tournament to me, the best players are in Korea and they are in code S.
Code S is only gaining entertainment value for me. o_O It's currently Terran-heavy (which I suppose is kind of disappointing, though results are results), but I enjoy its map pool the most out of any SC2 tournament, the quality of games are the highest, and Tastosis is hilarious to listen to. I also feel it has the best production value.
Only potential "con" I see is for cheapsters who don't want to fork over a couple dollars for high quality live and VODs. Watching in 240p in the wee hours of the morning probably isn't that great.
I did forget to mention the crowd aspect. It would be nice to see GOM get a larger crowd for their regular matches, and they could certainly do a lot more for the stream as far as hype and such is concerned, but before they do that, they need to shape up how they handle casting their finals ceremonies and such.... I'm sick of barely being able to hear Jon translate over the korean casters talking, or missing so much of the Q&A stuff because of trouble translating on the fly, if we could get proper english production for that stuff I'd be a lot happier with GOM's system, but as it stands I still think GOM presents a very strong tournament catering to high level play and has a very good format to keep the top players in Code S unless they are slumping hard enough to not deserve it, and let the top Code A players make their way in. That environment, especially with the matches being so spread out, allows for the players to have enough tie to actually prepare. I can handle bit of sloppy production for games played at the highest level. That's why I ecided to watch pro SC2, not to watch some relative nobody show up, own face, and then embarrass themselves next time.
the only real problem I have with the GSL is the harsh demotion system. I'm not sure how they could fix it, but I don't think a player like MC/MarineKing/MVP should be sent to code A because they hit a little slump.
On September 08 2011 08:08 spicyredcurry wrote: SO you want a qualifier to insert new blood into code S?
I believe they have something like that called code A... and that has a qualifier aswell. Making Code A double elimination would be cool but that would not be feasible.
You are right in a way. with the current system, code a could be seen as a season-long qualifier to get into the next code S tournament...
I think the main possible area of improvement i see in all of this is, lets say some dude out there is extremely skilled after a few months of practice and has a few weeks of incredible genius in sc2 for some unknowable reason.
I this this is EXTREMELY hypothetical, but hear me out.
If this dude wanted to get into code S he would need to spend 1 entire season doing code A, then he would have to get far enough into code A in that season to get into up/down. Then he would have to win the up/down and he could be in code S.
So he would have to do the season-long code a which is like a qualifiers to get into the next code S
(( And winning the up/down seems kind of like a silly format given that its BO1's between top players... but thats another discussion. ))
I guess im trying to say, if this dude somehow has a flash of genius right now id wanna see that dude in the code S tournament right now, not next season. With a type of open seeding element added to the tournament, the same dude could theoretically win code S in a single season without having to wait.
however, i agree my scenario is very hypothetical... but i believe sc2 has a high level of volatility that increasing the "new blood" level of a code s tournament could give Code S even more of a highly competitive mystique because the code S players would have to be superior to eachother and be superior to any bright stars that are materializing at that very moment.
And lets say one of these bright stars does good in code A, gets into code S, then during that season loses and goes to up/down and goes back into code A. Such a person would be doing a entire codeA season to qualify for one codeS season, then after dropping out he has to do ANOTHER codeA SEASON AGAIN to qualify for 1 more code S season. And if such a bright star has a flash of genius yet again he no longer has the "chance" to win code s for that season because his only option now is to spend another season trying to qualify again.
Im not saying the dude doesnt deserve to drop out for losing his games, im just saying such a system is not too forgiving in the time-department for many pro players out there.
Also heres another way of looking at it. if a pro wants to qualify into code S he has to spend a entire long season doing code A, and then its not even a garuntee. So a pro spends like a 50 day Code A season of playing and doesnt even know after that whether or not his chance is 100% of being in the next code S tournament.
With my idea, a pro would ONLY need to spend a few days playing that open tournament, and if he places high enough in the open tournament he knows after only a few days whether or not he 100% has a spot in the code s tournament or not. Giving pro players such a quick way (however a highly competitive way) to spend a few days playing to give them a 100% yes/no answer of "you are seeded in the next code s tournament" is a great way of increasing the chances of pros from around the world trying it out. Because a pro only needs to invest a couple days, and after that if he knows he didnt make it into the tournament no sweat he can now go to other tournaments and try his luck there.
TO be honest I have never really had interest in the GSL, and when I did, it was only when the foreigners were playing.
I think the reason is because its hard to identify with a favorite korean pro because you see so little of them outside of GSL, so its hard for me to find someone to cheer for.
GSL has only gotten better and more entertaining for me. The level of play is leaps and bounds above where it used to be. Can't see how it's less interesting to people unless they are just losing interest in SC2 in general (which is understandable).
just get rid of Code A, it's a really bad system that brings down the hype as the winner of it all gets to go into the real tournament, damn that sounds real exciting to follow the entire tournament. Merge code A with code S. ro64 winners stay for next tournament, the 32 losers have to requalify. This way you see more zerg/protoss, more top tier foreigners would accept invites as they actually get into the real tournament, less stagnation, and you also get to see epic matches where new faces try to bring down the absolute best. The qualifiers would be just crazy and alot more exciting to follow as well.
They need to have more Super Tournaments, or Open Tournaments. Ones like MLG where they last 3 days and are non stop action. I think MLG is so exciting is because it only lasts 3 days compared to a month which takes awhile for the results. Of course, this would mean not every match would be casted but I think we'd probably see a better finals than most Code S finals.
It seems the system if very unforgiving. Such as MC or MVP two of the best players in the world just not having a good day, or get unlucky. So, they end up in Code A. MC lost to MVP which put him in the up and downs, when MVP is in the finals.. Makes not a lot of sense imo. A more giving system would be the entertaining value more imo. And more fun matches, like the World Championship was really fun to watch :D
On September 08 2011 09:29 roymarthyup wrote: Also heres another way of looking at it. if a pro wants to qualify into code S he has to spend a entire long season doing code A, and then its not even a garuntee. So a pro spends like a 50 day Code A season of playing and doesnt even know after that whether or not his chance is 100% of being in the next code S tournament.
With my idea, a pro would ONLY need to spend a few days playing that open tournament, and if he places high enough in the open tournament he knows after only a few days whether or not he 100% has a spot in the code s tournament or not. Giving pro players such a quick way (however a highly competitive way) to spend a few days playing to give them a 100% yes/no answer of "you are seeded in the next code s tournament" is a great way of increasing the chances of pros from around the world trying it out. Because a pro only needs to invest a couple days, and after that if he knows he didnt make it into the tournament no sweat he can now go to other tournaments and try his luck there.
But.......... why? Making it easier to get into makes it a lot less interesting. When you see someone in Code S you know they earnt it through hardwork. I don't care if there are no foreigners in Code S because they're simply lazy or don't want to spend some time working towards a goal. Code A isn't 50 days either, upto Ro32 and Ro16 are played within the first week or so, so players know if they are in the Up/Down matches within a week. If a player isn't willing to invest his time for a week, then who cares? There's plenty of other better, more skilled players to choose from who are.
Anyway, I don't understand where you're getting this idea that Code S is losing entertainment? Many many many people would disagree with you.
On September 08 2011 09:38 Yip12343 wrote: It seems the system if very unforgiving. Such as MC or MVP two of the best players in the world just not having a good day, or get unlucky. So, they end up in Code A. MC lost to MVP which put him in the up and downs, when MVP is in the finals.. Makes not a lot of sense imo. A more giving system would be the entertaining value more imo. And more fun matches, like the World Championship was really fun to watch :D
MC lost to Noblesse and Losira who were both eliminated in group stages aswell as Jjakji who was eliminated in Ro8 Code A. MC also PICKED MVP for his group, maybe when he gets back to Code S he'll stop making such suicidal picks.
It may seem unforgiving, but players have to lose alot of games to drop to Code A, and it's not like it's just one bad day, you have to come last in the group stages, you then get a month or so to prepare for the Up/Down matches, you have to be in a major slump to lose all matches and fall to Code A.
The competition is top notch the format is fine as well. The only thing that really makes it uninteresting at times is the lack of personality out of the players. Sure they do their little ceremonies but that's about it. Much unlike the foreigners who tend to show a lot more emotion and personality on the stage.
Also a lot of the koreans don't speak english and as a result it's difficult with a translator even when they do interviews to really feel a personal connection to the players.
TLDR: GSL suffers from the lack of personality of the players more then anything.
On September 08 2011 09:04 esla_sol wrote: honestly would like gom to start making maps that are anti-terran. it was required in bw and should be put in place again.
On September 08 2011 08:08 spicyredcurry wrote: SO you want a qualifier to insert new blood into code S?
I believe they have something like that called code A... and that has a qualifier aswell. Making Code A double elimination would be cool but that would not be feasible.
You are right in a way. with the current system, code a could be seen as a season-long qualifier to get into the next code S tournament...
I think the main possible area of improvement i see in all of this is, lets say some dude out there is extremely skilled after a few months of practice and has a few weeks of incredible genius in sc2 for some unknowable reason.
I this this is EXTREMELY hypothetical, but hear me out.
If this dude wanted to get into code S he would need to spend 1 entire season doing code A, then he would have to get far enough into code A in that season to get into up/down. Then he would have to win the up/down and he could be in code S.
So he would have to do the season-long code a which is like a qualifiers to get into the next code S
(( And winning the up/down seems kind of like a silly format given that its BO1's between top players... but thats another discussion. ))
I guess im trying to say, if this dude somehow has a flash of genius right now id wanna see that dude in the code S tournament right now, not next season. With a type of open seeding element added to the tournament, the same dude could theoretically win code S in a single season without having to wait.
however, i agree my scenario is very hypothetical... but i believe sc2 has a high level of volatility that increasing the "new blood" level of a code s tournament could give Code S even more of a highly competitive mystique because the code S players would have to be superior to eachother and be superior to any bright stars that are materializing at that very moment.
And lets say one of these bright stars does good in code A, gets into code S, then during that season loses and goes to up/down and goes back into code A. Such a person would be doing a entire codeA season to qualify for one codeS season, then after dropping out he has to do ANOTHER codeA SEASON AGAIN to qualify for 1 more code S season. And if such a bright star has a flash of genius yet again he no longer has the "chance" to win code s for that season because his only option now is to spend another season trying to qualify again.
Im not saying the dude doesnt deserve to drop out for losing his games, im just saying such a system is not too forgiving in the time-department for many pro players out there.
If this star player is as brilliant as you say he should have NO trouble going through code A and STAYING in code S, Look at Bomber, Puzzle, July ++, they all came into code A and blasted their way to Code S. And if someone can't beat the up/downs that have the "weaker" Code S players how do you expect them to do against the heavyweights.
Aside from the obvious reasons, I guess having the same tournament every month makes it lose it's luster. They could try mixing things up more with special events, and just have bigger tournaments every other month or someting.
If you want more drama, you need to change the format.
There's a reason why fans really get into the player group opening ceremonies as it's where most of the drama materializes in Korean E-Sports and let the seeds have some sort of control.
Really need more group stages so more rivalries can prevail and this way the brackets would be far more interesting as well.
I still love GSL, I tune in and buy every season ticket but I find myself skipping a lot more games - mainly for the reason most people have stated, just too much TvT's. When players started playing TvT at a high level it was one of the most exciting matchups for me (by far the best mirror at least), but like anything else, you can only watch it so many times before it gets stale. I mean TvT's with the best players are still quite nice, however I can't really be bothered to watch like Virus v Alive after a Bomber v MVP or something. Again, it would be fine if there was something in between to 'take a break' with, but there are just far too many groups with nothing but consecutive TvT's games.
And as a protoss player, how much the race is struggling is pretty depressing - without trying to bring race balance talk, I think its kind of borderline mind boggling that almost no protoss players can be considered 'favored' in any game. As in, when tier 1 players of other races such as MVP/Bomber/Nestea/Losira play against tier 2~3 players you'd be certain that they would win. But watching MC/Puzzle, you aren't even sure if they can beat clearly inferior players. As in, would you honestly be willing to put a large amount of money on Puzzle (who many think is the best Toss nowadays) against an averagely decent terran like say Supernova or Happy? Heck, just look at the liquibet track records of people, I guarantee almost everybody bets against the Toss, there's probably a reason behind that no? =/
I've only enjoyed watching the very first Open Season GSL when Fruit Dealer was the champion. Mainly because there was a side story of a guy playing the race widely considered underpowered at the time smashing his way through the tournament.
I personally dislike the way the Code A/S tournaments are set up. Group stages into BoX series bores me. I'd rather prefer watching something like the Open Season tournaments with their own qualifiers. No seeds given to Code S players or any people in the GSL. We can see more new faces.
On September 08 2011 08:08 spicyredcurry wrote: SO you want a qualifier to insert new blood into code S?
I believe they have something like that called code A... and that has a qualifier aswell. Making Code A double elimination would be cool but that would not be feasible.
You are right in a way. with the current system, code a could be seen as a season-long qualifier to get into the next code S tournament...
I think the main possible area of improvement i see in all of this is, lets say some dude out there is extremely skilled after a few months of practice and has a few weeks of incredible genius in sc2 for some unknowable reason.
I this this is EXTREMELY hypothetical, but hear me out.
If this dude wanted to get into code S he would need to spend 1 entire season doing code A, then he would have to get far enough into code A in that season to get into up/down. Then he would have to win the up/down and he could be in code S.
So he would have to do the season-long code a which is like a qualifiers to get into the next code S
(( And winning the up/down seems kind of like a silly format given that its BO1's between top players... but thats another discussion. ))
I guess im trying to say, if this dude somehow has a flash of genius right now id wanna see that dude in the code S tournament right now, not next season. With a type of open seeding element added to the tournament, the same dude could theoretically win code S in a single season without having to wait.
however, i agree my scenario is very hypothetical... but i believe sc2 has a high level of volatility that increasing the "new blood" level of a code s tournament could give Code S even more of a highly competitive mystique because the code S players would have to be superior to eachother and be superior to any bright stars that are materializing at that very moment.
And lets say one of these bright stars does good in code A, gets into code S, then during that season loses and goes to up/down and goes back into code A. Such a person would be doing a entire codeA season to qualify for one codeS season, then after dropping out he has to do ANOTHER codeA SEASON AGAIN to qualify for 1 more code S season. And if such a bright star has a flash of genius yet again he no longer has the "chance" to win code s for that season because his only option now is to spend another season trying to qualify again.
Im not saying the dude doesnt deserve to drop out for losing his games, im just saying such a system is not too forgiving in the time-department for many pro players out there.
If this star player is as brilliant as you say he should have NO trouble going through code A and STAYING in code S, Look at Bomber, Puzzle, July ++, they all came into code A and blasted their way to Code S. And if someone can't beat the up/downs that have the "weaker" Code S players how do you expect them to do against the heavyweights.
Sounds like you just want instant gratification.
your right. i kind of want instant gratification. in my opinion that style/mystique makes the tournament more entertaining. however i realize its only my opinion and some people might enjoy the current system.
also you are right that the player should be able to win and stay in code S. my point was that if he doesnt, i realize he deserves to drop down, but still that creates a scenario where great players have to do entire code A seasons yet again. my idea would still give him a small chance to win the next code S tournament without having to do another entire code A. pro gamers dont have large amounts of time in their career and im just thinking of systems that are more time friendly.
But at the end of the day its still just my opinion, and i cant say for a fact improving the system in such a manner is good. All of these things are just discussions within the realm of opinion and i realize that.
On September 08 2011 09:04 CitrusFo wrote: Once a year they should have a tournament where each korean pro team chooses 3 or so players from there lineup depending on Teamleague results and have a 32 man tourny like that. Can't think or another way to have the best players inside a tournament.
They are already kind of doing this with Super tournament. Pretty sure its once a year and its a huge 64-man bracket (like the old GSL seasons) based on the top 64 by GSL points.
I watch alot less GSL. I can't really pinpoint exact reasons. One thing I can say though is I really enjoyed watching Brood War Stars like JaeDong and Flash. They had very distinctive playstyles and even if everything around the game was incomprehensible to me the game spoke for itself and I was enthralled and had to tear myself away. Kinda like when you watch a good sport and you keep wanting a tie so you can get extra innings, or periods in which you can watch more.
Recently, I've fallen asleep in my chair everytime I stayed up late to watch and when I do watch its very rarely that I come away saying wow those guys played great. I understand that the level is play is extremely high...just something is missing for me in my viewing experience.
The only thing similar to this i've ever encountered is Iron Chef. I can watch the original series and be inspired to eat/cook something new. But the new Iron Chef America is agonizing to me.
GSL is losing its luster only because its not the monopoly on SC2 tournaments any more. There are so many strong foreign tournaments that it has to compete with for viewers. MLG, IPL, IEM, NASL are to name only a few. People tend to have short attention spans with which these other tournaments can satisfy. I can say that the only reason I have yet to watch GSL live is because the viewing hours are not friendly to America. They could re-broadcast the matches like NASL did for the EU audiance and they would gain at least 1 more viewer....ME!
Alright, I've concluded that nothing is good enough for starcraft 2 fans. Code S is getting boring? The best starcraft 2 players playing against eachother with some of the best casters? I hate these complaints. Just because another tournament has something exciting doesn't mean the other tourney needs to be changed. That's like me making a post after MLG orlando indicating that there should be an MLG teamleague.
As to the content of the post (which is curiously more of a suggestion then supporting the title) , no. GSL wants the best and most consistent players to have the best games. New blood isnt exciting, its more of a "old blood kills new blood" fest(itd be more like second chance for code B, and would code A exist?). Because people don't train as much as IMMvp and the like and GSL would lose it's exclusivity.
MLG and GSL are two different systems, GSL is completely meritocratic while MLG is more of a do-well and stay good enough and we'll keep you in, if you aren't in you better be pretty good if you want in.
TL;DR Although MLG has enjoyable characteristics, The meritocratic system of the GSL, the fact that people around here complain for the sake of complaining, and the fact that the GSL is the best tournament all around causes this post to be a worthless endeavor.
Too many terrans, too few foreigners. That's what made me lose interest at least.
I almost never missed a match in the first 5 seasons. Now I only watch if a foreigner is playing or if a really huge match is coming up like mvp vs nestea. MLG feels so much more special.
Making it so that races other than Terran can compete would greatly improve it's entertainment value. It's no fun knowing who's gonna win half the time.
GSL bores me because its full of Koreans (shouldn't be called Global Starcraft League, should be KSL) and because the way that they have the different code levels set up is terrible. GSL is the only league that I know of where a player can be playing at the highest division one month and next month he can be one level down because he lost one or two match's.
If they want this league to look a lot more professional than they should consider making seasons last 3-6 months and making it harder to drop down from code S to A.
I enjoy some terran vs terrans (Poltimus vs TOP was a wicked series to watch) but I find seeing so many of them boring. I play protoss as main and zerg as my backup to relieve boredom and there is a distressing lack of the first and a select few of the second who I am able to watch.
I'm waiting for the moment when the GSL intros can be as epic like the MSL and OSL, that would be pretty awesome. I still haven't loss much interest, and I actually like TvT. At least its better than the other mirror matchups.
Personally, I adore TvT, especially high-level ones. It doesn't matter if it's pure mech with Blue Flame Hellion spam or just standard marine tank medivac TvT, I love the matchup and all the fantastic Code S Terrans.
However, I don't like how big-name players sometimes get knocked out early in the tournament while weaker players tend to go deep. I dislike how players like HongUn, Anypro, and Inca accidentally knock out big names only to get crushed in subsequent matches.
Although I do like the Nestea, MVP, MC trinity dominating the entire tournament, I sometimes feel that perhaps too much dominance can stifle lesser-known stars from having a fighting chance at the championship and can stagnate things a bit too much. Polt broke away from this trend during the Super Tournament, and I really want to see more Polts win Code S.
I find it interesting that players falling out of Code S is such a problem for so many people, I understand we all have players we specifically follow but the truth of the matter is that you have to be one of THE best players in the world to be in Code S. Not only that, you have to be one of the best players in the world AND you have to be playing at the top of your game just to stay in Code S, let alone winning it. Its a brutal system, but it keeps the competition of the very highest caliber. Even when a player slips down to Code A who shouldn't it's been shown that they will get back into Code S (mvp never should have been Code A, and he proved it)
The terran imbalance, as far as the actual number of them in Code S, will settle over the next three seasons. We're already seeing the big Code A influx of P and Zs and the new patch will (hopefully) eliminate any actual racial imbalance, if there is any.
Edit: I also think that the players who get "lucky" going deep (InCa in finals) subsequently get knocked down very quickly or exit in the RO32 the very next season.
On September 08 2011 09:55 Ghost-z wrote: GSL is losing its luster only because its not the monopoly on SC2 tournaments any more. There are so many strong foreign tournaments that it has to compete with for viewers. MLG, IPL, IEM, NASL are to name only a few. People tend to have short attention spans with which these other tournaments can satisfy. I can say that the only reason I have yet to watch GSL live is because the viewing hours are not friendly to America. They could re-broadcast the matches like NASL did for the EU audiance and they would gain at least 1 more viewer....ME!
Either rebroadcast and make people happy while costing them more money, Or lose potential subscriptions due to people like yourself not having to watch the VoDs. Not that I'm saying you specifically wouldn't keep buying their subscriptions Ghost-z just using you as an example. But you get what I mean, its all about economics and what makes GOM the most money.
It's definitely possible, and a lot of people have been complaining the quality of games has dropped because all we see are mirror matchups atm (TvT). Hopefully Code A will lighten things up as there are very few Terrans in Code A next season and hopefully more Protoss and Zerg will advance to Code S to lighten up the TvT issue we've been having concurrently.
also because seasons come too fast, its just one season after another, and then 1 week later another gsl starts again. too repetitive which detracts from it feeling special anymore.
On September 08 2011 10:21 ReaperX wrote: It's definitely possible, and a lot of people have been complaining the quality of games has dropped because all we see are mirror matchups atm (TvT). Hopefully Code A will lighten things up as there are very few Terrans in Code A next season and hopefully more Protoss and Zerg will advance to Code S to lighten up the TvT issue we've been having concurrently.
Have you been watching PvT lately? The match up is completely garbage right now. 90% of the games are one base all-ins and Protoss doing blind Voidray all-in's trying to counter 1-1-1 hoping the Terran 1-1-1'd and didn't get cloak.
Even then, the games that do end up in a macro game, the entire thing is over in a single fight where the Protoss gets carpeted by EMP's and losses to Terrans mass ghost late game :|
TvP is without doubt of the worst match ups to watch right now, I don't know how anyone can find it entertaining...
At least TvT produces some back and forth games. When was the last time you saw something like that in PvZ and PvT?
I've never watched the GSL live, and only watched the World Tournmant and any free VODs of it, but there are several things putting me off of it.
1. The gigantic amount of Terrans. I find TvT to be the best of the 3 mirror matchups but it's still a boring mirror nonetheless.
2. Very little foreigner representation. The only regular foreigner in the GSL at the moment is HuK.
3. MLG actually being used as an argubaly easier way to get a Code S seed. Since the league exchange program, no foreigner has recieved a Code S spot becuase all the Korean invitees and general entrants are just facerolling these events.
4. The requirement to download and use GOM Player to view the stream. This is one of the two killers for me. I do not know what GOM Player is like but I've heard mixed reviews about it, and I don't exactly want to install another media player on my computer just for the intention
It's a stupid business idea. It's like Apple hosting a Starcraft II tournament and forcing people to use the bloated turd that is Quicktime in order to view it. I understand Quicktime runs well on Macs but try running it on a PC and you'll see what I mean.
Or (gasps at the thought of it), RealNetworks hosting a Starcraft II tournament and then forcing viewers to view the stream using RealPlayer.
Okay... maybe not as bad as being forced to use a malware filled privacy invasive piece of crap, but still not good in the way that you don't have a choice.
Especially when as proven by the Code A qualifiers, GOMTV can simply use a browser based streaming site like twitch.tv. I understand Gretech want to push their media player but this isn't the way to do it.
5. The lack of rebroadcast for NA/EU viewers. This is the second of the two killers as I have to be up at like.... 9am to watch the GSL.
6. The recent break-in to GOMTV's servers. That makes me feel more and more uneasy about giving them my details, let alone my money for a season pass.
7. The lack of free VODs. You have to pay $5 for a season pass that will let you view the vods WITH ADS. That seems like a pretty cheapskatey thing to do especially since the VODs aren't that good quality even when set to HQ. Or $10 for a season pass for VODs without ads. I mean MLG shows free ad supported VODs, so does the IPL. The only other league that has premium VODs is the NASL.
But at least the NASL doesn't force its viewers to view the stream with their propietary software, hosts it in an easy-to-access browser based flash format on twitch.tv and even does a European rebroadcast.
Hence the reason why I mentioned 7 as an issue was that they were quite interlinked with 4 and 5.
Really the only reason why I don't really tune into the GSL anymore is because I can't stay up so late. Getting 2-3hrs a sleep every few days is killer (my own fault I know).
I prefer MLG because I can plan some shit with my friends. The last MLG I had a get together at my house with some friends, my wife, kids etc etc. Made a big pot of chili, had some drinks basically just chilled out in my basement and watched SC2 Sunday evening with friends and family. We had so much fun and it will be happening again for the next MLG.
I don't mind the format, but I do mind the massive amount of TvTs. I actually like TvT, but there just isn't much variety in GSL, unfortunately. I don't think GOM should have any responsibility behind this, it's just an effect of the metagame and the race popularity in Korea.
One problem is the product is terrible if you don't subscribe, and the subscription is low value for most of us since we aren't awake for most of the matches and only a few matches per season maybe are good enough matches to justify watching vods of them.
I've been a long follower of GSL and haven't really had much of a problem. I still watch it most of the time.
The key issue of concern for me is that there are just way too many Terrans in Code S. It makes it difficult to watch for 2 reasons:
1. The are two many TvTs. The issue is not with TvT itself as TvT is perhaps one of the most fun match ups. The issue is with there being too many. 2. Most of the newer Terrans don't really have much distinguishing characteristics, making them all seem all too similar. There's no additional reason for you to root for them. Can you honestly tell me how popular Noblesse, Ensnare, Alive, asd and Happy are?
I don't think its a balance issue. It's just that Korean Terrans are just too strong for one reason or another. In fact if you look at it from a whole, only in Korea are there just so many Terrans dominating top tier competitions: GSL, WCG Finals.
I really don't know how GOM can fix this though. There's no real issue with the format. I think the only way they can fix it is to reboot their leagues, but even then there are just too many strong Terrans in Korea at the moment. More Zergs and Protosses need to step up.
I don't think Code S is getting dull. I think people are complaining too much and expecting too much.
For those who think there are too many TvT:
It's not GOM's fault that Terrans are winning. Whether its due to race imbalance, better players, or simply better strategies, the same is true for every event. The only reason it doesn't happen at MLG is because GOM sends at least one player of each race and Korean's have proven they are skilled enough to overcome any race imbalance.
For those who think there aren't enough foreigners:
The MLG/GSL exchange has provided more foreigners. Realistically, the more you support e-sports , the larger it will grow and sponsors will be more inclined to send players overseas. Furthermore, by stating that you will only watch something with foreigners, you are essentially saying that you don't want to watch the best competition. When foreigners are willing to commit to the training and lifestyle that's required, see Huk, then there is good reason for them to be there. I'm not going to support someone who feels they should be rewarded or receive special treatment simply because of their nationality, overlooking their inability to excel at the game.
If anything, I'd like to see suggestions on how to improve the North American starcraft scene so that it can produce "Korean" quality players.
On September 08 2011 10:33 Clbull wrote: I've never watched the GSL live, and only watched the World Tournmant and any free VODs of it, but there are several things putting me off of it.
2. Very little foreigner representation. The only regular foreigner in the GSL at the moment is HuK.
5. The lack of rebroadcast for NA/EU viewers. This is the second of the two killers as I have to be up at like.... 9am to watch the GSL.
6. The recent break-in to GOMTV's servers. That makes me feel more and more uneasy about giving them my details, let alone my money for a season pass.
7. The lack of free VODs. You have to pay $5 for a season pass that will let you view the vods WITH ADS. That seems like a pretty cheapskatey thing to do especially since the VODs aren't that good quality even when set to HQ. Or $10 for a season pass for VODs without ads.
2: Foreigners can't compete with Koreans, refer to this season's Code A foreigner slaughter
5. Never would've thought an EU resident would complain, it's 10am GMT which is quite fine
6. The only information that could've been compromised was your account details such as username/password/e-mail, GOMTV works through paypal so there was no way to get your CC info.
7. The HQ vods are 720p, you don't call that good? You can watch the first game of every set and special events such as the world championship, LG 3D cinema finals for free. Please realize SC2 e-sports has become a business, and businesses want money, they don't have any ticket or entry fees, ads are almost non-existant on the english livestreams, sponsors are only displayed out of game and for a brief moment at the start of each game. Considering all this, how do you propose GOM make any profit when they have to pay out tens of thousands in prize-money each month, not to mention the production costs.
On September 08 2011 10:43 slothpants wrote: I don't think Code S is getting dull. I think people are complaining too much and expecting too much.
For those who think there are too many TvT:
It's not GOM's fault that Terrans are winning. Whether its due to race imbalance, better players, or simply better strategies, the same is true for every event. The only reason it doesn't happen at MLG is because GOM sends at least one player of each race and Korean's have proven they are skilled enough to overcome any race imbalance.
For those who think there aren't enough foreigners:
The MLG/GSL exchange has provided more foreigners. Realistically, the more you support e-sports , the larger it will grow and sponsors will be more inclined to send players overseas. Furthermore, by stating that you will only watch something with foreigners, you are essentially saying that you don't want to watch the best competition. When foreigners are willing to commit to the training and lifestyle that's required, see Huk, then there is good reason for them to be there. I'm not going to support someone who feels they should be rewarded or receive special treatment simply because of their nationality, overlooking their inability to excel at the game.
If anything, I'd like to see suggestions on how to improve the North American starcraft scene so that it can produce "Korean" quality players.
But there are just way too many Korean Terrans. And right now, the best players in the world are Korean Terrans. Yeah, you have your Nestea here mixed in with them, but other than him, every top of the line player at the moment is a Korean Terran. Look at the past 3 MLGs. 3 Korean Terran winners.
I still can't figure out why though. Either there are just too many Terran players playing at a high level in Korea or Korean Terrans have really found ways to be a lot better than Korean Zergs and Protoss. It's just a really strange phenomenon.
Everywhere else in the world this doesn't seem to be the case and is a little more balanced in terms of racial distribution.
On September 08 2011 10:43 slothpants wrote: I don't think Code S is getting dull. I think people are complaining too much and expecting too much.
For those who think there are too many TvT:
It's not GOM's fault that Terrans are winning. Whether its due to race imbalance, better players, or simply better strategies, the same is true for every event. The only reason it doesn't happen at MLG is because GOM sends at least one player of each race and Korean's have proven they are skilled enough to overcome any race imbalance.
For those who think there aren't enough foreigners:
The MLG/GSL exchange has provided more foreigners. Realistically, the more you support e-sports , the larger it will grow and sponsors will be more inclined to send players overseas. Furthermore, by stating that you will only watch something with foreigners, you are essentially saying that you don't want to watch the best competition. When foreigners are willing to commit to the training and lifestyle that's required, see Huk, then there is good reason for them to be there. I'm not going to support someone who feels they should be rewarded or receive special treatment simply because of their nationality, overlooking their inability to excel at the game.
If anything, I'd like to see suggestions on how to improve the North American starcraft scene so that it can produce "Korean" quality players.
But there are just way too many Korean Terrans. And right now, the best players in the world are Korean Terrans. Yeah, you have your Nestea here mixed in with them, but other than him, every top of the line player at the moment is a Korean Terran. Look at the past 3 MLGs. 3 Korean Terran winners.
Everywhere else in the world this doesn't seem to be the case and is a little more balanced in terms of racial distribution.
There are just as many if not more Protoss/Zerg players as there are Terran.
GSL has Code S one day, Code A another day, Team League a third day. It ruins the continuity of being able to follow it. This is what MLG has going for them. It's alot of action within a short period of time.
Maybe GOM should return to separating Team League's season from Individual League season. Team League was better when it was a tournament format, and Individual season was better when there was action going on everyday.
Another important factor is the how little of Tastosis we see now compared to before.
The way the up and down matches work seems too random. You get unfortunate maps vs certain people and you're stuck in what is an extremely competitive Code A. I think if the looked at the system again and kept the best players in Code S a little more consistantly it would be more entertaining.
Also more background and interviews with the players so we can actually get to know them, that's where fans come from. And when I say interviews I mean with hard questions, not the usual "I will try my best to play entertaining games for the fans".
I even think the old Artosis interviews were great. Even interviews with players trying to qualify for Code A, everyone loves an underdog story (see DongRaeGu). Although the new GSL Qualifier coverage is helping with this somewhat.
They have to remember that as foreign fans we know a lot less about these guys outside of the fact that they're awesome players.
And yeah, so many TvT games, and particularly poor finals in previous seasons haven't helped the cause.
On September 08 2011 08:05 AlBundy wrote: If you guys find TvT boring then you don't really love starcraft. It's like saying "I hate amusement parks because roller coasters are boring". edit; well that didn't make sense.
Also why bring up MLG in this conversation? There are too many arguments favoring GSL over MLG, most of them are obvious, such as format, skill level, production value, amount of drama...
Sure the GSL's format is far from perfect, but I think it's definitely better than MLG. Playing dozens of competitive games during the span of only 3 days is just insane to me. That's not how RTS are supposed to be played. This stuff definitely seems to be working fine with fighting games and first person shooters, but doesn't seem suited AT ALL for strategy games.
It is what it is: if one wants to display top strategies and top tactics, one absolutely needs time in order to properly prepare and plan. As a spectator I prefer watching GSL games because the players are actually prepared for their opponents, they received specific training and developed specific strategies. I know these matches will feature unique builds, tailor-made strategies and elaborate mind games.
Can you imagine if the Chargers had to play the Patriots, the Giants, the Redskins, and the Raiders all in the same day? That may seem far fetched but that's what MLG looks like to me. There is no way that format can produce the highest level games.
Anyway in my opinion if you win MLG, well congratulations that means you have good stamina and you are well-rounded. Just like a Street Fighter or a MvC3 player. Whereas if you win GSL, that means you're a true master strategist. You're like Napoleon or Flash.
Also don't even get me started on the awful pool system. All in all, that 3-day format really bothers me but it's not just MLG, there's Dreamhack too.
As Mr Chae said, MLG is a festival. Indeed it is a fucking funfair, it's not a genuine RTS tournament to me. It is a 3-day fucking stacked to the max marathon ffs. In conclusion, even though I would love GSL to adapt their format to the growing number of progamers, I'll alway be interested in watching the best players duke it out.
PS: TL used to be THE place to meet true Sc fans but where are they now? The more I read this forum, the more I see casual spectators who are not even THAT interested in the game, but are really interested in making threads to complain about it. TvT boring, seriously?
Oh please, the all powerful god, are you serious that we can't like a specific MU? And that means we don't like starcraft in general? Are you serious that we can't have a opinion on different MU? Please, you are not the only one person in the world and everyone has a opinion on MU, you might like T v T and i totally respect that, but if you say if you don't like T v T you dont like starcraft. You, sir, just made one of the most stupid statement i've seen here.
One thing I havent seen anyone mention is the fact that the GSL lacks a good crowd. The biggest reason that I find MLG and Dreamhack more enjoyable is because of the live crowd reacting to big moments in the game, which I find makes it much more entertaining.
The GSL crowd is mostly silent except for introductions... Even at the finals they don't make a lot of noise during the games, only before and after. Just look at that video of Boxer beating Rain from MLG Anaheim that's floating around and tell me that crowd reaction doesnt give you nerd chills! :D
On September 08 2011 10:43 slothpants wrote: I don't think Code S is getting dull. I think people are complaining too much and expecting too much.
For those who think there are too many TvT:
It's not GOM's fault that Terrans are winning. Whether its due to race imbalance, better players, or simply better strategies, the same is true for every event. The only reason it doesn't happen at MLG is because GOM sends at least one player of each race and Korean's have proven they are skilled enough to overcome any race imbalance.
For those who think there aren't enough foreigners:
The MLG/GSL exchange has provided more foreigners. Realistically, the more you support e-sports , the larger it will grow and sponsors will be more inclined to send players overseas. Furthermore, by stating that you will only watch something with foreigners, you are essentially saying that you don't want to watch the best competition. When foreigners are willing to commit to the training and lifestyle that's required, see Huk, then there is good reason for them to be there. I'm not going to support someone who feels they should be rewarded or receive special treatment simply because of their nationality, overlooking their inability to excel at the game.
If anything, I'd like to see suggestions on how to improve the North American starcraft scene so that it can produce "Korean" quality players.
My thoughts exactly after going through a couple pages of this post.
There is no one really to blame when there are too many of said race in a tournament. GOM has no control over the balance of the game whatsoever. On the same note, many foreigners have made appearances to the GSL but the fact that they cannot stay in the GSL is not within GOM's control. If foreigners can't make a mark in Code A or Code S, then that is just too bad.\
IMHO Code S is fine the way it is. I get very excited when the rounds nears the finals and I am always hoping that every single player in GSL makes way to international events like MLG.
I will continue to support GSL even though I am only really interested in ZvT and Protoss games. It isn't GOM's fault that there are 20 Terrans and it's important that GSL stays big and successful through the bad times as well as the good ones.
It doesn't matter... Anaheim MLG wasn't that exciting for me, Rayleigh was only good because of Nada reverse sweeping Puma and DRG v Hero which we didn't see. MLG is just becoming a TvT fest as well.
Honestly the MLG system is way worst than GSL at the moment. Talk about staying in for a season for too long? If GSL used MLG format then MVP would of never been in Code A in the first place due to Jan. Championship.
The fact is that Code S does in fact cycle new players in each season. I mean the only reason why Code S feels like it doesn't cycle out new players is because the top tier players stay at the top. People say HongUn doesn't deserve Code S but he continues to keep placing top 2 in his group, while you have the same people in MLG placing 0-5 each tournament...
Stop trying to derail e-sports by typing OP's saying SC2 games are boring compared to other tournaments. GOMTV is fixing the entertainment value, they're streaming Code A qualifiers, Blizzcon GSL Finals, and watch this Saturday's All-Star match. Most of the MLG cheers you hear at MLG is cheers from the other games anyways.
Also: less terrans may be qualifying for Code A due to the new map pool.
Just wait for the next patch. Maybe protoss will go for Immortal Busts now.
With the GSL format, I mainly take issue with the Best-of-1 matches dictating the future make up for Code S. A player who might struggle with a Best of 1, but better read a player in a Bo3 format is not rewarded since both the group stages and Up/Down matches are now Bo1. And then funnily enough, Code S continues with Bo3, Bo5 and Bo7 which hasn't been determined as the advancing player's strength.
Also: it's a non issue for me the state of Terran in Korea. Not many players race switch ever in their career, so really it's just that a lot of the best players (ignoring race) in Korea are actually terran. That, to me, is nothing to do with the race but everything to do with the players. I haven't really bought into the imbalance of the game before, though I do think Terran has a lot of advantages at the game design level that mean the race's potential is much higher than the other two, so as time goes on and the metagame gets worked out, Terran starts to look really strong from a viewer standpoint.
Anyway, my predominant issue with the GSL tournament is it's use of Best of 1s to determine who is the best option for a Bo3 format tournament. Why not just flip a few coins and make a Ro16 out of it instead? =/
Would be better if they stretched the group stage out a bit. Sure, their goal of being like one GSL a month might fall, but the Ro16 and Up/Down would be more justifiable if players don't just need to all-in two players in a row.
Will GSL change though? No probably not, the tournament lives in the shadow of Brood War tournaments which it aspires to. This makes me sad =(
On September 08 2011 10:43 slothpants wrote: I don't think Code S is getting dull. I think people are complaining too much and expecting too much.
For those who think there are too many TvT:
It's not GOM's fault that Terrans are winning. Whether its due to race imbalance, better players, or simply better strategies, the same is true for every event. The only reason it doesn't happen at MLG is because GOM sends at least one player of each race and Korean's have proven they are skilled enough to overcome any race imbalance.
For those who think there aren't enough foreigners:
The MLG/GSL exchange has provided more foreigners. Realistically, the more you support e-sports , the larger it will grow and sponsors will be more inclined to send players overseas. Furthermore, by stating that you will only watch something with foreigners, you are essentially saying that you don't want to watch the best competition. When foreigners are willing to commit to the training and lifestyle that's required, see Huk, then there is good reason for them to be there. I'm not going to support someone who feels they should be rewarded or receive special treatment simply because of their nationality, overlooking their inability to excel at the game.
If anything, I'd like to see suggestions on how to improve the North American starcraft scene so that it can produce "Korean" quality players.
But there are just way too many Korean Terrans. And right now, the best players in the world are Korean Terrans. Yeah, you have your Nestea here mixed in with them, but other than him, every top of the line player at the moment is a Korean Terran. Look at the past 3 MLGs. 3 Korean Terran winners.
Everywhere else in the world this doesn't seem to be the case and is a little more balanced in terms of racial distribution.
There are just as many if not more Protoss/Zerg players as there are Terran.
Yeah, but look at the Code S and A distribution for the August GSL. 32/64 players were Terran. That's half.
Heck, look at the Korean ladder on sc2ranks. A significant number of top tier (and I'm talking about top top tier) players are Terran.
19 of the Top 30 Korean/TW players are Terran.
Compared to other servers where: 15 of the Top 30 Chinese players are Terran 15 of the Top 30 American players are Terran 13 of the Top 30 EU players are Terran
The ladder stats aren't really as conclusive as I initially expected (there were times when almost everyone in the Top 20 were Terran) but it nonetheless shows that a lot of the best of the best players in Korea are Terrans.
Like a lot of posters in this thread, I have purchased every GOM ticket, except for the most resent GSL. For me the number one reason Code S has become less interesting to watch is the amount of predictable outcomes. In Starcraft 2, the better player wins almost all the time which is exactly how it should be, but the GSL tournament format does not work well with this fact. So many matches are one sided and predictable.
However, I don't think adding variance to the game or tournament structure is the correct choice (not that anyone is really suggesting this).
One solution might be a tournament setup with a larger field and Swiss pairings (each round players play against someone with the same overall record before cutting to a top 8 at the end of the season). Each week, the producers could choose a few highlight matches to be played live in studio as well as cast any exceptional replays. Feature matches would be chosen to showcase fan favorites, upcoming talent, players of equal skill, varied match-ups or interesting stories. While this system wouldn't broadcast every match, hopefully the ones chosen would keep fans interested.
When I watch a competition, I'm looking to watch the Best players out there compete. I couldn't care less about the nationality of the players. The same goes for the races.
GOM has no control over these factors. It's up to the players themselves to last.
I agree that the GSL is kind of boring...I always tune in for MLG but never bother watching the GSL, despite it being in my timezone. Personally I would like to see more foreigners in it but I dont think that will happen for a while...
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
^this, pls dont ban me, but its the truth..
i still love gsl, i'm but also enjoy tvz but tvt... no sry enough is enough
When I pay especially, I want to watch the best players play, not mediocre players create drawn out "epic" games due to sloppy play. GSL Code A qualifiers are probably more competitive than MLG.
I believe that the code A code S system is awful and that it'd be much better if it was all just dumped together, maybe have code S get byes first round, and then add in a few open bracket slots.
It really gets boring seeing the same faces every time. I also think that the casting isn't as good as it could be but I'm certain I'm in the minority with that.
On September 08 2011 08:05 AlBundy wrote: If you guys find TvT boring then you don't really love starcraft. It's like saying "I hate amusement parks because roller coasters are boring". edit; well that didn't make sense.
Also why bring up MLG in this conversation? There are too many arguments favoring GSL over MLG, most of them are obvious, such as format, skill level, production value, amount of drama...
Sure the GSL's format is far from perfect, but I think it's definitely better than MLG. Playing dozens of competitive games during the span of only 3 days is just insane to me. That's not how RTS are supposed to be played. This stuff definitely seems to be working fine with fighting games and first person shooters, but doesn't seem suited AT ALL for strategy games.
It is what it is: if one wants to display top strategies and top tactics, one absolutely needs time in order to properly prepare and plan. As a spectator I prefer watching GSL games because the players are actually prepared for their opponents, they received specific training and developed specific strategies. I know these matches will feature unique builds, tailor-made strategies and elaborate mind games.
Can you imagine if the Chargers had to play the Patriots, the Giants, the Redskins, and the Raiders all in the same day? That may seem far fetched but that's what MLG looks like to me. There is no way that format can produce the highest level games.
Anyway in my opinion if you win MLG, well congratulations that means you have good stamina and you are well-rounded. Just like a Street Fighter or a MvC3 player. Whereas if you win GSL, that means you're a true master strategist. You're like Napoleon or Flash.
Also don't even get me started on the awful pool system. All in all, that 3-day format really bothers me but it's not just MLG, there's Dreamhack too.
As Mr Chae said, MLG is a festival. Indeed it is a fucking funfair, it's not a genuine RTS tournament to me. It is a 3-day fucking stacked to the max marathon ffs. In conclusion, even though I would love GSL to adapt their format to the growing number of progamers, I'll alway be interested in watching the best players duke it out.
PS: TL used to be THE place to meet true Sc fans but where are they now? The more I read this forum, the more I see casual spectators who are not even THAT interested in the game, but are really interested in making threads to complain about it. TvT boring, seriously?
Oh please, the all powerful god, are you serious that we can't like a specific MU? And that means we don't like starcraft in general? Are you serious that we can't have a opinion on different MU? Please, you are not the only one person in the world and everyone has a opinion on MU, you might like T v T and i totally respect that, but if you say if you don't like T v T you dont like starcraft. You, sir, just made one of the most stupid statement i've seen here.
How about you read again what I wrote? I said "you don't really love starcraft" There's a difference between "liking" and "really loving" something.
On September 08 2011 11:03 skrzmark wrote: It doesn't matter... Anaheim MLG wasn't that exciting for me, Rayleigh was only good because of Nada reverse sweeping Puma and DRG v Hero which we didn't see. MLG is just becoming a TvT fest as well.
We must not have watched the same MLG Raleigh. Raleigh was a massive improvement on Anaheim in terms of racial distribution and non-TvT match-ups. Or have you forgotten that the finals and the winner's bracket finals were TvZs and the loser's bracket finals was a ZvZ?
Oh wait, people just like to complain and say that MLG is just a bunch of TvTvTvT because apparently it's cool and hip to do so.
Complain about Anaheim all you want, but stop making it seem like Raleigh was TvT all across the board, because it wasn't.
I really like watching Protoss play. I mainly watch tourneys for that reason. I might also mix it up with ZvT, which sometimes I find as interesting. But the current race distribution has been nothing short of a joke, I cannot seriously consider all these TOPs and Polt's a better player than MC. I just don't feel like watching anymore.
Even ZvTs are getting boring for me. The fact that Terran had too many useful units, too many options was known from Day 1. Don't know why they have to keep it the way it is.
Basically, these days, I only watch MLGs. And I skip TvTs and good chunk of ZvTs.
for me its the TvT. If it is a terran that I support like MKP i'll watch but otherwise i'm getting bored. Plus past few days i've been getting a lot of lag which pisses me off and i turn it off to watch How I met your mother season 4.
the reason i watch GSL less and less relative to MLG is simply because of the time that it is on (2am)
GSTL is still fun to watch but i have life stuff to do the next morning and even if i didnt then staying up late will simply fuck up my sleeping habits for the day after and its annoying to try and fix it ._> Thus I RARELY watch GSL anymore
As far as im concerned, people who complain things are boring are just ruining this game. Do you ever get bored of watching baseball or football even thuogh they play the same teams every single year?
I too agree with too many TvX games. EVERY SINGLE GAME its terran vs something. urg... Some of them are pretty good, taeja v ganzi for example, but after the 10th game it becomes /shrug
I might also add that if you are more interested in MLG because GSL is full of "no name" players, that's because you don't know them. I would hazard a guess that Korea, the primary viewing audience, knows them quite well.
Or, instead of complaining about that fact, be proactive and submit some articles to TL ABOUT the new Code A/Code S players so that viewers become more invested in the players. If you haven't noticed, that is a large part of the GSL/MLG exchange - getting known internationally. Before the last MLG, I doubt many people would have said Coca could compete against the people he beat. Now you know him. Same goes for Puma at NASL (or whichever he won first), etc.
Just because you are exposed to specific players more often, doesn't mean that the people you don't know aren't interesting or exciting.
On September 08 2011 11:27 Oreo7 wrote: Too many terrans is the issue nothing else
Exactly. I play Protoss and almost all the Protoss got eliminated in the first few rounds, with only Huk, Genius and JYP making the R08 for both Code A and Code S. And all three were eliminated in that round.
This isn't really Gom's fault, more Blizzard due to overall game balance or the players for simply not playing well.
In GSL if it is all tvt I don't care at all because I don't know the players, I can't hope for anyone. When tvt in foriegn tournies I know the players more and can choose sides. GSL Needs to create storylines and IMO both the format and all the tvts don't allow this to happen. No idea how they can fix this though. I would say get more foreigners but I guess they can't really control that. I would perfer a more league style where players had wins and losses but played pretty much everyone. Then get playoffs from the top players of each race, and make it equal across races. Like 5t/5p/5z and some wildcards or some shit like that.
On September 08 2011 11:14 Shikyo wrote: I believe that the code A code S system is awful and that it'd be much better if it was all just dumped together, maybe have code S get byes first round, and then add in a few open bracket slots.
It really gets boring seeing the same faces every time. I also think that the casting isn't as good as it could be but I'm certain I'm in the minority with that.
We had the super tourney, it created a lot of one-sided stompings in the ro64.
Realize that at the top of every sport/game you WILL see the same group of people, they are the best at what they do and that is their reward. You seem to just want new players because they're new, can you guarantee they're good?
On September 08 2011 11:32 krndandaman wrote: it might also be because there are alot more foreigners in MLG (like ALOT more) compared to GSL.
sc2 is growing bigger and bigger in the international scene whereas I think sc2 growth in korea is not even close.
foreigners want to watch foreigners. couldnt this be a reason?
foreigner scene gets bigger -> more people watch foreigner tournaments
Truth with modifications, seems more people want to watch KOREANS vs foreigners. How many people cared about IPL1 and 2? Next to no one because it didn't have Koreans. Compare viewership and hype from MLG 2010 and when Koreans started showing up.
On September 08 2011 11:32 krndandaman wrote: it might also be because there are alot more foreigners in MLG (like ALOT more) compared to GSL.
sc2 is growing bigger and bigger in the international scene whereas I think sc2 growth in korea is not even close.
foreigners want to watch foreigners. couldnt this be a reason?
foreigner scene gets bigger -> more people watch foreigner tournaments
Some people love to argue that they only want to watch "the very best" and don't want to watch "2nd tier players", but I think everyone loves to watch the Korean vs World rivalry. Personally I could care less how many foreigners or Koreans there are in a tournament, I just want to see some good games.
On the one hand, having the same players every season may get boring for impatient fans.
On the other hand, there's nothing stopping scrubs from getting lucky and playing in Code S in your format.
The current format is decent to say the least, there's nothing wrong with having the same players win simply because they are better. It's tough getting into Code S, but if you are good enough, you'll (eventually) get it.
I can give one reason why I personally have lost some interest in the GSL (although I still love it!). It's because I no longer identify with any of the players. In the early seasons, we got player interviews after every match, and players all had their own quirks and styles. Now we have all these new players, mostly Terran, who all play exactly the same, and I can't tell them apart.
One huge reason for this is lack of player interviews. We need more player interviews! Another huge reason is that they're all coming up through Code A and being cast by the Code A casters, so we don't get the same kind of analysis on their styles and their history as we would from Tastosis. It seems like the only time I get to know any of these players is from the GSTL, where their personalities really shine, and Artosis talks about the important differences between them. All of my favorite new players have come from the GSTL.
Finally, tangent, but Tastosis is just commentating a lot less than usual. They don't do the Up-and-Downs, they don't do Code A, and they only do GSTL half of the time. I know they said they wanted to give Tastosis a break by hiring new casters, but really? Casting less than half of the time now?
TL;DR: Gom needs to add more interviews and more Tastosis to make GSL exciting again.
On September 08 2011 10:43 slothpants wrote: I don't think Code S is getting dull. I think people are complaining too much and expecting too much.
For those who think there are too many TvT:
It's not GOM's fault that Terrans are winning. Whether its due to race imbalance, better players, or simply better strategies, the same is true for every event. The only reason it doesn't happen at MLG is because GOM sends at least one player of each race and Korean's have proven they are skilled enough to overcome any race imbalance.
For those who think there aren't enough foreigners:
The MLG/GSL exchange has provided more foreigners. Realistically, the more you support e-sports , the larger it will grow and sponsors will be more inclined to send players overseas. Furthermore, by stating that you will only watch something with foreigners, you are essentially saying that you don't want to watch the best competition. When foreigners are willing to commit to the training and lifestyle that's required, see Huk, then there is good reason for them to be there. I'm not going to support someone who feels they should be rewarded or receive special treatment simply because of their nationality, overlooking their inability to excel at the game.
If anything, I'd like to see suggestions on how to improve the North American starcraft scene so that it can produce "Korean" quality players.
But there are just way too many Korean Terrans. And right now, the best players in the world are Korean Terrans. Yeah, you have your Nestea here mixed in with them, but other than him, every top of the line player at the moment is a Korean Terran. Look at the past 3 MLGs. 3 Korean Terran winners.
Everywhere else in the world this doesn't seem to be the case and is a little more balanced in terms of racial distribution.
There are just as many if not more Protoss/Zerg players as there are Terran.
Yeah, but look at the Code S and A distribution for the August GSL. 32/64 players were Terran. That's half.
Heck, look at the Korean ladder on sc2ranks. A significant number of top tier (and I'm talking about top top tier) players are Terran.
19 of the Top 30 Korean/TW players are Terran.
Compared to other servers where: 15 of the Top 30 Chinese players are Terran 15 of the Top 30 American players are Terran 13 of the Top 30 EU players are Terran
The ladder stats aren't really as conclusive as I initially expected (there were times when almost everyone in the Top 20 were Terran) but it nonetheless shows that a lot of the best of the best players in Korea are Terrans.
Well, two weeks ago a community manager made a post saying that in Korea and NA, the Terran winrate against Protoss was tipping over 60%+ showing signs of imbalance. So that may have something to do with it as well.
Plus, it was only a few months ago when Protoss was dominating every ladder, now all the ladders are being dominated by Terran as people catch up to Korea
i'd like to see a double elim format somehow. not sure how since their single elim format takes long enough, but i think double elim would create better finals.
also, i would like to them stop pairing doa + moletrap. i want at least one person who actually knows how to play the game to be casting, not two play-by-play casters
and to everyone complaining about the tvts... just wait until toss or zerg becomes the majority, and you'll be praying for your tvts back lol. i hate zvz and pvp is almost as lame.
On September 08 2011 11:30 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: As far as im concerned, people who complain things are boring are just ruining this game. Do you ever get bored of watching baseball or football even thuogh they play the same teams every single year?
It's different, because there are three races in starcraft, but just the human race in basketball. If there were humans, dog, and plants in basketball, then I don't think I'd enjoy watching dogs play over half the time.
On September 08 2011 11:32 slothpants wrote: I might also add that if you are more interested in MLG because GSL is full of "no name" players, that's because you don't know them. I would hazard a guess that Korea, the primary viewing audience, knows them quite well.
Or, instead of complaining about that fact, be proactive and submit some articles to TL ABOUT the new Code A/Code S players so that viewers become more invested in the players. If you haven't noticed, that is a large part of the GSL/MLG exchange - getting known internationally. Before the last MLG, I doubt many people would have said Coca could compete against the people he beat. Now you know him. Same goes for Puma at NASL (or whichever he won first), etc.
Just because you are exposed to specific players more often, doesn't mean that the people you don't know aren't interesting or exciting.
thats not really what causes my perceived lack of entertainment
my perceived problem that could use some fixing is not that gsl full of "no names", its the fact that gsl is all super well known players. every player in code s is among "the best" players
every game is "the best" vs "the best", and i know this is just my opinion but i think that allowing some "new blood" into the equation will make it more entertaining for the average viewer....
code A requires new bloods to play a whole season before getting into a code s tournament. My idea would allow some new bloods to be placed directly into each code s tournament with only a few days of playing required to achieve a seed.
sometimes i enjoy watching a code s player completely crush a random guy in a "game that matters", my idea would let "new bloods" face off against code s players and the code s player would give his perfect game and completely crush because he knows if he loses to this guy he is out of the tournament
however, what if the new guy wins? holy hell. wouldnt that create some suspense, some drama, a big element of the unknown and the mysterious. such mystique and "possibility for the impossible to happen" in my opinion would make the tournament alot more entertaining to the average viewer
On September 08 2011 11:32 krndandaman wrote: it might also be because there are alot more foreigners in MLG (like ALOT more) compared to GSL.
sc2 is growing bigger and bigger in the international scene whereas I think sc2 growth in korea is not even close.
foreigners want to watch foreigners. couldnt this be a reason?
foreigner scene gets bigger -> more people watch foreigner tournaments
Some people love to argue that they only want to watch "the very best" and don't want to watch "2nd tier players", but I think everyone loves to watch the Korean vs World rivalry. Personally I could care less how many foreigners or Koreans there are in a tournament, I just want to see some good games.
I really don't have any illusions about foreigners catching up anytime soon. The best players happen to be Korean, and yes, you tend to see the same faces in the last rounds of the best tournament in the world. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I'm a huge baseball fan, I follow the whole sport and of course my favorite team. I even keep track of the minor league prospects for my favorite team, but do I watch minor league games? No.
I'm a huge starcraft II fan, I follow the whole scene and of course my favorite players (almost all Korean). I even keep track of foreigners who have caught my interest, but do I watch all of their games? No.
On September 08 2011 11:30 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: As far as im concerned, people who complain things are boring are just ruining this game. Do you ever get bored of watching baseball or football even thuogh they play the same teams every single year?
These organizations (especially football, assuming your talking NFL) change their rules all the time because people complain about boring games. And there is a difference between "people" and "fans". Fans in my opinion have earned the right to complain about boring games.
On September 08 2011 11:37 Cel.erity wrote: I can give one reason why I personally have lost some interest in the GSL (although I still love it!). It's because I no longer identify with any of the players. In the early seasons, we got player interviews after every match, and players all had their own quirks and styles. Now we have all these new players, mostly Terran, who all play exactly the same, and I can't tell them apart.
One huge reason for this is lack of player interviews. We need more player interviews! Another huge reason is that they're all coming up through Code A and being cast by the Code A casters, so we don't get the same kind of analysis on their styles and their history as we would from Tastosis. It seems like the only time I get to know any of these players is from the GSTL, where their personalities really shine, and Artosis talks about the important differences between them. All of my favorite new players have come from the GSTL.
Finally, tangent, but Tastosis is just commentating a lot less than usual. They don't do the Up-and-Downs, they don't do Code A, and they only do GSTL half of the time. I know they said they wanted to give Tastosis a break by hiring new casters, but really? Casting less than half of the time now?
TL;DR: Gom needs to add more interviews and more Tastosis to make GSL exciting again.
Artosis needs to do interview with viewer submitted questions...I miss him and the players getting trolled all the time.
I think more tastosis would be good. Even if the games are terrible they are still very entertaining.
terran has the best mirror, the best nonmirror(tvz) and a pretty good match up in tvp when they dont all in. a protoss or zerg heavy gsl would honestly be close to unwatchable because of the mirrors. so korea being so in love with terran may hurt, but it isnt nearly as bad as it could be. gsls biggest issue remains to be their absurdly volatile ro32 format. it leads to a lot of good and popular players going out in round 1 and a lot of mediocre players advancing. it also cant be forgotten that gsl starts anywhere from 2am to 5 am in the U.S. this is hard to watch for just about anyone, but people made time for it when it was the only competitive tourney on. it is still the highest level tourney in the world, but now that there is a ton of starcraft 2 on, its harder to make the sacrifice to stay up late and watch gsl.
yeah GSL needs to step up and offer tastetosis BIG contracts to cast full time. They have earned it and probably have contributed hugely to GSL revenue in subscriber fees. Sending them around the world shows that there is more money elsewere for them.
On September 08 2011 11:56 j0ker wrote: terran has the best mirror, the best nonmirror(tvz) and a pretty good match up in tvp when they dont all in. a protoss or zerg heavy gsl would honestly be close to unwatchable because of the mirrors. so korea being so in love with terran may hurt, but it isnt nearly as bad as it could be. gsls biggest issue remains to be their absurdly volatile ro32 format. it leads to a lot of good and popular players going out in round 1 and a lot of mediocre players advancing. it also cant be forgotten that gsl starts anywhere from 2am to 5 am in the U.S. this is hard to watch for just about anyone, but people made time for it when it was the only competitive tourney on. it is still the highest level tourney in the world, but now that there is a ton of starcraft 2 on, its harder to make the sacrifice to stay up late and watch gsl.
The thought of PvP (as it currently stands, that is) ever being as prevalent as TvT is today is frightening, to say the least. The only thing going for it would be that it ends quickly.
for me the problem stems from extreme oversaturation of starcraft content. i mean, gsl--in some form or another-- is broadcast almost nightly. pitted against the torrent of other starcraft content out there, suddenly a night of bo3's doesn't have the same anticipation; obviously exceptions do apply.
gom are doing great things in terms of injected entertainment value. broadcasting code a quals, yellow's code a journey, alternating casters, giving seeds to foreigners etc. the problem isn't with gom; at least not with their content creation. the problem, as i see it, is a combination of things, as it often turns out to be.
firstly, there is a war being waged at this stage in starcraft's development as an esport. the war is being fought between broadcasters. the starcraft community is an untapped resource, a revenue stream that advertisers and content creators don't really know how to efficiently tap into, yet. as a result of this, the community is presented with a slew of content, ranging from low quality, 10fps user streams to $50 weekly cups to mid-tier, mid-prestige value tournaments (EGMC) all the way through to the GSLs, MLGs, IPLs, Dreamhacks and more. Simply put, if you ever want to watch somebody else play starcraft, you can.
this affects starcraft as a whole, and GSL code:s specifically by reducing the originality and excitement value of raw game content. given the GSL began with what i can reasonably assume was massive popularity, it's to be expected that people are now left wanting when the content that used to put them on the edge of their seat has lost some intensity.
i believe the GSL is still second only to the 3-day tournaments (MLG, DH) in terms of watch ability. these short burst tournaments have the advantage of LAN environment, spectator involvement, the suspense of watching an underdog rise AND to have it resolved within the weekend, amongst other things. however when the average watcher of starcraft is likely not GM, or even masters, a lot of the decision making and metagaming is actually lost on them. it's up to the casters for the most part, to convey the excitement of what's actually happening, behind the scenes of a proxy 2-rax or a +2 blink stalker timing or anything, and this hasn't really happened yet.
TLDR; because I wont be able to write everything I have to say in under an essay length post ~there is an oversaturation of content, reducing our interest in most standard content ~some tournaments have interest OUTSIDE of the content (MLG) lan environment, meet players, see underdogs ~weeks long tournament content can all seem very similar to the sub-grandmasters watcher/player, scII is a game that's hard to distinguish between SICK good play and "good" play, unless you have that knowledge yourself. ~casters (some can, far more than others) have trouble explaining rationale, decision making, beyond "oh he's making 30 roaches, and the +1 and now he's attacking, and oh the roaches are lal gone!". ~GSL began so high, it's more evident (and obviously problematic) when a big force loses momentum than vice versa ~terran presence in the gsl/tournaments in general is also an issue when caster's are not quite capable of explaining deep decision making.
GSL Code S is by no means lacking content, skill, or diversity in MUs. It's just that it became stagnant player-wise with the same group of people winning. Code S is the hardest tournament to enter and so easy to fall out of, that new players can't get used to the format before they get knocked out. The players who has been constantly in Code S that is not part of the group mentioned before has plateaued or becoming inconsistent with results. Tastosis doesn't travel around the world for money but to support the foreign scene. They know Korea has the best competition and therefore would stay in GOM regardless of pay. IMO its because of MLG being more close to home in other words more accessible to us foreigners. Those who haven't personally been to the GOMTV Studios and watched the GSL can't really judge between the entertainment values of the two. Let's face it, more people watched MLG in person than GSL, and with Koreans going to MLG they feel more satisfied. I bet if there was an all-Korean tournament in U.S. soil then it would be more entertaining than both.
On September 08 2011 12:05 kKagari wrote: more player flushing please:
last person in RO32 group: instant Code A 3rd person in RO32 group: up and downs
code A is now 64 players semifinalists: instant code S positions 5 - 16: up n downs
up n downs: 20 players, 12 spots, (maybe 10, giving 2 spots to MLG 1st and 2nd place)
split groups accordingly
Bad system, in scenarios such as group of death a player insta-falls down without any chance of redemption so for example this season Losira would join MC in code A, MVP would've been in the up-downs several times.
Your system is bad because it creates a highly unstable tournament, people would go in and out of Code S like flies
What people want is to watch Code B through Code S to show people just how impressive it is for people to simply *be* in Code S.
-----Edit------
Also, the time zone differences is a big factor as well. It's easier to enjoy MLG while awake compared to enjoying GSL while trying hard not to pass out from lack of sleep.
On September 08 2011 12:13 BoxersGosuGarden wrote: GSL Code S is by no means lacking content, skill, or diversity in MUs. It's just that it became stagnant player-wise with the same group of people winning. Code S is the hardest tournament to enter and so easy to fall out of, that new players can't get used to the format before they get knocked out. The players who has been constantly in Code S that is not part of the group mentioned before has plateaued or becoming inconsistent with results. Tastosis doesn't travel around the world for money but to support the foreign scene. They know Korea has the best competition and therefore would stay in GOM regardless of pay. IMO its because of MLG being more close to home in other words more accessible to us foreigners. Those who haven't personally been to the GOMTV Studios and watched the GSL can't really judge between the entertainment values of the two. Let's face it, more people watched MLG in person than GSL, and with Koreans going to MLG they feel more satisfied. I bet if there was an all-Korean tournament in U.S. soil then it would be more entertaining than both.
u only need to win 1 game to stay in code S =/ its not that easy to fall out of...like i said earlier, needs more player flushing.
On September 08 2011 11:57 piknic wrote: yeah GSL needs to step up and offer tastetosis BIG contracts to cast full time. They have earned it and probably have contributed hugely to GSL revenue in subscriber fees. Sending them around the world shows that there is more money elsewere for them.
I wouldn't watch Gomtv if Tasteosis wasn't there. It wouldn't even feel right. Khaldor going to code A is going to improve casting there too. Luckily it doesn't look like tastosis is going anywhere.
MLG is fun because it is a short-term event, a live event with a huge crowd. Everyone looks forward to it arriving and enjoys the atmosphere of an "MLG weekend".
On September 08 2011 12:13 BoxersGosuGarden wrote: GSL Code S is by no means lacking content, skill, or diversity in MUs. It's just that it became stagnant player-wise with the same group of people winning. Code S is the hardest tournament to enter and so easy to fall out of, that new players can't get used to the format before they get knocked out. The players who has been constantly in Code S that is not part of the group mentioned before has plateaued or becoming inconsistent with results. Tastosis doesn't travel around the world for money but to support the foreign scene. They know Korea has the best competition and therefore would stay in GOM regardless of pay. IMO its because of MLG being more close to home in other words more accessible to us foreigners. Those who haven't personally been to the GOMTV Studios and watched the GSL can't really judge between the entertainment values of the two. Let's face it, more people watched MLG in person than GSL, and with Koreans going to MLG they feel more satisfied. I bet if there was an all-Korean tournament in U.S. soil then it would be more entertaining than both.
u only need to win 1 game to stay in code S =/ its not that easy to fall out of...like i said earlier, needs more player flushing.
On September 08 2011 12:05 kKagari wrote: more player flushing please:
last person in RO32 group: instant Code A 3rd person in RO32 group: up and downs
code A is now 64 players semifinalists: instant code S positions 5 - 16: up n downs
up n downs: 20 players, 12 spots, (maybe 10, giving 2 spots to MLG 1st and 2nd place)
split groups accordingly
Bad system, in scenarios such as group of death a player insta-falls down without any chance of redemption so for example this season Losira would join MC in code A, MVP would've been in the up-downs several times.
Your system is bad because it creates a highly unstable tournament, people would go in and out of Code S like flies
when you are playing for at least 1.5k US iirc, imo it should be highly volatile. maybe make the double elimination games all BO3 or something, but it prevents ppl like fruitdealer sticking around for money just winning that 1 game every season. those games are stagnant
and what makes losira and MC 'special' that they should have a better time sticking around in code S (i like losira btw), if they lose, they lose, and like everyone else, they should gtfo of code S. code S isnt a gentlemen's club where u sit around waiting to get paid...
On September 08 2011 12:13 BoxersGosuGarden wrote: GSL Code S is by no means lacking content, skill, or diversity in MUs. It's just that it became stagnant player-wise with the same group of people winning. Code S is the hardest tournament to enter and so easy to fall out of, that new players can't get used to the format before they get knocked out. The players who has been constantly in Code S that is not part of the group mentioned before has plateaued or becoming inconsistent with results. Tastosis doesn't travel around the world for money but to support the foreign scene. They know Korea has the best competition and therefore would stay in GOM regardless of pay. IMO its because of MLG being more close to home in other words more accessible to us foreigners. Those who haven't personally been to the GOMTV Studios and watched the GSL can't really judge between the entertainment values of the two. Let's face it, more people watched MLG in person than GSL, and with Koreans going to MLG they feel more satisfied. I bet if there was an all-Korean tournament in U.S. soil then it would be more entertaining than both.
u only need to win 1 game to stay in code S =/ its not that easy to fall out of...like i said earlier, needs more player flushing.
Wait what? You need two wins from two different people in your group to advance? Where did you get that idea? Also Up/Down you need three wins from three different people to get back in Code S.
if u win your first game, u wont fall out of code S even if u lose the next 2 in the current system, and even if you do lose ur first game, if you win the next one, you'll stay in code S too. so really, you only need to get 1 win. 1 win = 1.5k~ish USD
On September 08 2011 12:18 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:17 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:13 BoxersGosuGarden wrote: GSL Code S is by no means lacking content, skill, or diversity in MUs. It's just that it became stagnant player-wise with the same group of people winning. Code S is the hardest tournament to enter and so easy to fall out of, that new players can't get used to the format before they get knocked out. The players who has been constantly in Code S that is not part of the group mentioned before has plateaued or becoming inconsistent with results. Tastosis doesn't travel around the world for money but to support the foreign scene. They know Korea has the best competition and therefore would stay in GOM regardless of pay. IMO its because of MLG being more close to home in other words more accessible to us foreigners. Those who haven't personally been to the GOMTV Studios and watched the GSL can't really judge between the entertainment values of the two. Let's face it, more people watched MLG in person than GSL, and with Koreans going to MLG they feel more satisfied. I bet if there was an all-Korean tournament in U.S. soil then it would be more entertaining than both.
u only need to win 1 game to stay in code S =/ its not that easy to fall out of...like i said earlier, needs more player flushing.
Wait what? You need two wins from two different people in your group to advance? Where did you get that idea? Also Up/Down you need three wins from three different people to get back in Code S.
if u win your first game, u wont fall out of code S even if u lose the next 2 in the current system
It still depends if you can win or not. Statistically speaking most players who get 1-2 fall out the next season.
The only reason is the time at which it is broadcasted. USA folks have to wake between 2:00am-5:00am if they want to watch games live. Not entirely reasonable since such a large part of their demographic is high school and college aged kids.
On September 08 2011 12:05 kKagari wrote: more player flushing please:
last person in RO32 group: instant Code A 3rd person in RO32 group: up and downs
code A is now 64 players semifinalists: instant code S positions 5 - 16: up n downs
up n downs: 20 players, 12 spots, (maybe 10, giving 2 spots to MLG 1st and 2nd place)
split groups accordingly
Bad system, in scenarios such as group of death a player insta-falls down without any chance of redemption so for example this season Losira would join MC in code A, MVP would've been in the up-downs several times.
Your system is bad because it creates a highly unstable tournament, people would go in and out of Code S like flies
when you are playing for at least 1.5k US iirc, imo it should be highly volatile. maybe make the double elimination games all BO3 or something, but it prevents ppl like fruitdealer sticking around for money just winning that 1 game every season. those games are stagnant
Rofl looks like the only way people on TL are gonna be happy about tourney formats is round-robin bo9s
On September 08 2011 12:23 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: The only reason is the time at which it is broadcasted. USA folks have to wake between 2:00am-5:00am if they want to watch games live. Not entirely reasonable since such a large part of their demographic is high school and college aged kids.
It's Korean primetime, keep in mind that GSL gets TELEVISED, do you really think they'd relocate to something like midnight KST just so they can appease americans?
On September 08 2011 12:23 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: The only reason is the time at which it is broadcasted. USA folks have to wake between 2:00am-5:00am if they want to watch games live. Not entirely reasonable since such a large part of their demographic is high school and college age kids.
The GSL in total is getting boring, because they are trying to provide more and more and more games. The total available drama is limited however - up&down matches and the first round of code A with some of the big names - and spreading it out over too much video is bad. Thats where MLG and other weekend tournaments have a real advantage. They are FOCUSED and its easy to get on to it and watch the whole drama. The GSL is like a soap opera you missed a few episodes of ... you are lacking a piece of the information of what has happened.
The new GSTL format is bad IMO, because it spreads the drama over too much footage. The newly started showing of code A qualifiers is good, because we get to see the big names who fail to qualify and the format is still a bit loose compared to a GSL show.
Code S also has the problem of extremely boring - because of the one-sidedness - finals, and if the finals are boring to watch, why should we watch the games leading up to them? The whole thing has to do with Korea and their way of doing things. Players get to play a GAME professionally and practice it to perfection. Once you reach that level the personal daily form and the prepared tactics determine the outcome much more than the general quality of the player. Thus we get roflstomp finals where one guy just loses 0-4 and its over in about 90 minutes. The blame also lies partly with the design of Starcraft 2, because it does not allow for failures. Producing masses of units and macroing is just too easy and this - coupled with the perfect unit movement - does make the game so volatile that you are not allowed to make any mistakes. This is true for the "perfection level" of korean players and doesnt apply to Joe Bronze who is fighting Tim Silver.
i watched every game of season 1 and 2 , but with barely any foreigners and so many terrans i really dont feel like watching it at these hours anymore. (though i did watch huk this season.)
Also people in general like to watch a tournament that ends fast: For example the first GSTLs were a huge hit, I mean they were like over in three days lol
On September 08 2011 12:27 adeezy wrote: Not everyone pays for VODs. I know I won't but if it was live during normal hours that I'd be awake then hell yeah I'd watch the GSL
LOL okay so you can trade your normal hours for inferior tournaments or pay to watch the GSL. Your choice.
On September 08 2011 12:23 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: The only reason is the time at which it is broadcasted. USA folks have to wake between 2:00am-5:00am if they want to watch games live. Not entirely reasonable since such a large part of their demographic is high school and college aged kids.
It's Korean primetime, keep in mind that GSL gets TELEVISED, do you really think they'd relocate to something like midnight KST just so they can appease americans?
I never even insinuated that they should change the time, so I don't know what you're reading into.
The original post was asking why Code S is losing steam. In Korea, it's not. Everywhere where there is a time issue, it is.
I've personally thought this season is one of my favorites by far. I don't know why people are complaining. I bet the same people complain about professional sports being boring, too.
On September 08 2011 12:29 adeezy wrote: Also people in general like to watch a tournament that ends fast: For example the first GSTLs were a huge hit, I mean they were like over in three days lol
Sounds to me like those people have short attention spans, perhaps they should pick up another game such as COD
I feel like one reason Code S, and really the GSL in general, is losing some entertainment value is because of how long it is. It's really hard to keep track of it over the course of a season unless you really have a lot of time to devote to it, and since the GSL is also so frequent that adds to it. They have different seasons, but since it's one after the other they really aren't any different from each other.
The reason MLG is so nice is because its about once a month. So it's easy to follow and it's action packed. I can't really say every MLG is the same as the last, at least up until the whole Korean domination thing. Maybe once Korean domination is the norm and we don't even have a flicker of hope for foreigners my opinion will change. But for now, that's how I feel.
On September 08 2011 12:23 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: The only reason is the time at which it is broadcasted. USA folks have to wake between 2:00am-5:00am if they want to watch games live. Not entirely reasonable since such a large part of their demographic is high school and college aged kids.
It's Korean primetime, keep in mind that GSL gets TELEVISED, do you really think they'd relocate to something like midnight KST just so they can appease americans?
I never even insinuated that they should change the time, so I don't know what you're reading into.
The original post was asking why Code S is losing steam. In Korea, it's not. Everywhere where there is a time issue, it is.
It has absolutely nothing to do with match ups.
absolutely nothing is a bit of a big call to make for the rest of the community. i dont mind watching TvTs but if thats what it is game after game then yes, it does get boring.
On September 08 2011 12:27 Rabiator wrote: The GSL in total is getting boring, because they are trying to provide more and more and more games. The total available drama is limited however - up&down matches and the first round of code A with some of the big names - and spreading it out over too much video is bad. Thats where MLG and other weekend tournaments have a real advantage. They are FOCUSED and its easy to get on to it and watch the whole drama. The GSL is like a soap opera you missed a few episodes of ... you are lacking a piece of the information of what has happened.
The new GSTL format is bad IMO, because it spreads the drama over too much footage. The newly started showing of code A qualifiers is good, because we get to see the big names who fail to qualify and the format is still a bit loose compared to a GSL show.
Who cares about drama? If this was a drama contest I suppose foreigners would win? Koreans are more passionate about Starcraft II than any foreigner anyway. MKP cried when he won against MC in the Super Tournament. Every time a Korean loses you feel their sadness and shock. Foreigners just talk trash and rage. 3 day tournaments just stress the shit out of everyone maybe that's why you think its more drama.
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
Of course MLG is more exciting, it's a month of code S and code A condensed into 1 weekend. If MLG was spread out over a month it would get pretty boring. I still like GSL though but don't watch because of the time.
The format just seems silly to me. Bo1's for the groups? You only have to lose two games and you're in up and downs. Bo3's would be so much better imo and let the better players win more consistently.
Then you've got Code A. Which although the matches are great to watch, feels a bit meaningless. It's basically a qualifier and that's about it.
There's no interaction with the Koreans at all, at first we had player interviews and were really spoilt in terms of the content we got. Now we only really get the matches and some previews with subtitles on the bottom. All i know about most of the players, is what they do in the game. I know nothing about them, i can't relate.
Whether you like it or not, for some people it's important to have someone to follow to get really excited about an event. And for a lot of people that's a foreigner. Every single Code S GSL the representation (through no fault of their own, it's just we're not good enough) has pretty much always been 1 player and 2 at the max. Who usually go out either in the groups or Ro16. So once they go out, the interest drops again.
And finally you've got the fact that nearly all the players are Terran. I won't go into why so many are Terran but after awhile, you just get sick of TvT. Especially if it's not your match up and you want to watch GSL to improve. It's getting worse not better too. Every single season it feels like there's more and more Terrans and less of the other races.
I'll still watch the GSL, I've stayed up every time to watch the finals only to be disappointed. Pretty much every single time. But i sure as hell don't blame people for not wanting to and don't get a buzz watching it anymore. I basically watch it for the games and to laugh at Tastosis and that's about it now.
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
Why don't you go and do brain surgery? You can go have fun with making no mistakes and with no luck involved.
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
I like how half the people in this thread say how easy it is for players to fall out of Code S, but then the other half say that it's incredibly hard for players to fall from Code S and then reference weaker Code S players as their examples. I think people need to stop and think when they talk about the weaker Code S players, many of these players have SIGNIFICANTLY better results then HuK, hell, people still for some reason seem to think that Polt is terrible and overrated.
People also blame the system for players like Fruitdealer being able to stay in for so long, it's not the system fault, it's the players that lose to hims fault.... It's like saying the only reason Bomber won MLG is because it favours seeded pool players, yes it does favour them, but the reason he won is because he stomped everyone.
As someone said, ofcourse MLG generates more excitement, it's a 3day event every few months whilst GSL is a regular TV show, it's like comparing a single TV show episode to a new movie release at cinema's - it's apple and oranges.
The personality point; how do people define personality? The only "personality" I've seen out of any of the foreign players at MLG is Idra not shaking Crunchers hand and pulling the finger to MC. The korean's display 1000x more personality when they win important games(MC, Boxer, Nada, DRG, Bomber just to name a few) at MLG then any of the foreign players. Hell, the only foreign player to win an MLG this year responded with "its ok" when he was asked how it felt to win - people think that is hilarious that naniwa responded that way, but a korean saying anything other than "that guy is terrible im the best!" is considered not having a personality.
I don't really like this idea, I think it's much better the way it is, compared to what you propose: none of your arguments seem too compelling, and there's plenty of reason not to do this. Code A does indeed act exactly like this, as a rigorous qualifier, and the way the system is set up in the end helps viewers. It rewards constant high levels of skill: in your example you complain that you might have to wait a whole month (not even that long...) to see a new player in Code S, and you'd rather that a few days of above average performance gets someone into Code S. Well, so someone has a unexpectedly good day, sprints into Code S....only to be eliminated, after taking up one of the spots. It's much better for the viewer if the player has had to show a sustained high level of skill, because it takes out all this lucky business which would only result in sub-par players getting seeded into Code S immediately, incrediably unfair to the hard working players fighting to get into Code S.
Your suggestion of an open tourney and Code A really shouldn't coexist together, as they aim to do opposite things. Instead your proposal should be to alter Code A to your new short term format, but apart from making it more likely for bad players to get into Code S, as mentioned above, this would also take away all the Code A matches we could watch, so really that doesn't work either.
Your point about leniency and the unforgiving nature of Code S is quite true, although I would argue the new up-down system allowing only the bottom performer of the group to go down to the up-downs is rather lenient. Still, I would much rather have strictness: how many times have you seen people complain about players being seeded in MLG who have for a long time not deserved such a spot. We get a higher level of players, and consequently games, in general thanks to this. All this soldifies Code S as the pinnacle of SC2 gaming, and that's obviously what GOM where going for when they set up the league.
The truth is you can't please everyone, and while many people may indeed prefer MLG for various reasons, the fact is that GSL and MLG are different tournaments by nature, personality and by design, and honestly, it's best for us viewers this way too: if you prefer the short intense bursts of MLG activity, with all the chaos, then you can watch MLG. If you prefer a more regular, less intensive schedule, with the highest level of gaming in SC2, then you can watch the GSL. Trying to make each tournament the same as each other really achieves nothing except to rob people who would rather watch one of the two.
The skewed race ratio in favour of terrens, which we may have to put up with until other races catch up in the meta (and hellions are nerfed derp).
The massive amounts of data that teams can gather on players, especially recently successful players, from replays as well as the time given between each match allows for some serious snipe tactics to be put into practice that can result in poor looking cheeses and boring play (which i'd do in the same position).
The reason MLG seems so much more interesting is due to:
The nature of the 3 day format means a reduced level of preparedness for players against others players, thus resulting in some much more dynamic and mechanic/build based play which is better than specific player focused timings and cheeeeeses.
The atmosphere is so much less sterile than the tiny crowd in the gom studio (seriously the applause sounds like there's 5 people there).
Being a brit means i can watch all leagues at reasonable times (though I do think 4am is a reasonable time to watch starcraft), however I prefer watching in the evening/at night when an MLG would be on rather than the morning which is when GSL is on.
The fact that MLG is finished within 3 days means that there is a sense of constant excitement followed by a feeling of completion, GSL doesn't really have either since the league goes on a decent while and seems to start all over again with no huge development of storyline.
Having said all that, I enjoy GSL when I catch it, even the tvt... so I dunno why I said all this :D
On September 08 2011 12:27 Rabiator wrote: The GSL in total is getting boring, because they are trying to provide more and more and more games. The total available drama is limited however - up&down matches and the first round of code A with some of the big names - and spreading it out over too much video is bad. Thats where MLG and other weekend tournaments have a real advantage. They are FOCUSED and its easy to get on to it and watch the whole drama. The GSL is like a soap opera you missed a few episodes of ... you are lacking a piece of the information of what has happened.
The new GSTL format is bad IMO, because it spreads the drama over too much footage. The newly started showing of code A qualifiers is good, because we get to see the big names who fail to qualify and the format is still a bit loose compared to a GSL show.
Who cares about drama? If this was a drama contest I suppose foreigners would win? Koreans are more passionate about Starcraft II than any foreigner anyway. MKP cried when he won against MC in the Super Tournament. Every time a Korean loses you feel their sadness and shock. Foreigners just talk trash and rage. 3 day tournaments just stress the shit out of everyone maybe that's why you think its more drama.
The drama is "will Huk win?" (or whoever your favorite player is) ... and if he does you have to wait for a week to see if he wins the next match. At MLG you only have to wait an hour or whatever to get the next episode (even though you might not get to see that match).
MLG also has a stagnated ranking system. People who won ages ago are still seeded in pool play. So I think Code S qualification is out of the question.
On September 08 2011 12:39 snafoo wrote: I like how half the people in this thread say how easy it is for players to fall out of Code S, but then the other half say that it's incredibly hard for players to fall from Code S and then reference weaker Code S players as their examples. I think people need to stop and think when they talk about the weaker Code S players, many of these players have SIGNIFICANTLY better results then HuK, hell, people still for some reason seem to think that Polt is terrible and overrated.
People also blame the system for players like Fruitdealer being able to stay in for so long, it's not the system fault, it's the players that lose to hims fault.... It's like saying the only reason Bomber won MLG is because it favours seeded pool players, yes it does favour them, but the reason he won is because he stomped everyone.
As someone said, ofcourse MLG generates more excitement, it's a 3day event every few months whilst GSL is a regular TV show, it's like comparing a single TV show episode to a new movie release at cinema's - it's apple and oranges.
The personality point; how do people define personality? The only "personality" I've seen out of any of the foreign players at MLG is Idra not shaking Crunchers hand and pulling the finger to MC. The korean's display 1000x more personality when they win important games(MC, Boxer, Nada, DRG, Bomber just to name a few) at MLG then any of the foreign players. Hell, the only foreign player to win an MLG this year responded with "its ok" when he was asked how it felt to win - people think that is hilarious that naniwa responded that way, but a korean saying anything other than "that guy is terrible im the best!" is considered not having a personality.
i agree with the 'fault of the players for getitng stomped' but i dont see why the system needs to facilitate that 'safe zone' for the players either, you play to win, if you don't win, you need to deal with the penalties of losing. the 3rd-in-the-group zone is meaningless and lets players that don't have the mettle to win code S thrive. 'what if they get better' you say? then they shan't need to worry about not having a safe zone either.
On September 08 2011 12:34 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:27 Rabiator wrote: The GSL in total is getting boring, because they are trying to provide more and more and more games. The total available drama is limited however - up&down matches and the first round of code A with some of the big names - and spreading it out over too much video is bad. Thats where MLG and other weekend tournaments have a real advantage. They are FOCUSED and its easy to get on to it and watch the whole drama. The GSL is like a soap opera you missed a few episodes of ... you are lacking a piece of the information of what has happened.
The new GSTL format is bad IMO, because it spreads the drama over too much footage. The newly started showing of code A qualifiers is good, because we get to see the big names who fail to qualify and the format is still a bit loose compared to a GSL show.
Who cares about drama? If this was a drama contest I suppose foreigners would win? Koreans are more passionate about Starcraft II than any foreigner anyway. MKP cried when he won against MC in the Super Tournament. Every time a Korean loses you feel their sadness and shock. Foreigners just talk trash and rage. 3 day tournaments just stress the shit out of everyone maybe that's why you think its more drama.
The drama is "will Huk win?" (or whoever your favorite player is) ... and if he does you have to wait for a week to see if he wins the next match. At MLG you only have to wait an hour or whatever to get the next episode (even though you might not get to see that match).
Um, yeah. That means there's actually less drama because you barely get to know each player. Imagine someone watching MLG for the first time. They don't know anyone. Do you think they will also see Huk the same way you do? In GSL, they get people into the player's world with the documentaries and interviews. Foreigners winning is only one part of the drama.
it's because they happen too often. If there were only 2 or 3 per year like OSL/MSL, it would be more interesting. But all GOM cares about is money so i doubt that will happen
On September 08 2011 12:40 hoepie wrote: the format is stale because:
The skewed race ratio in favour of terrens, which we may have to put up with until other races catch up in the meta (and hellions are nerfed derp).
The massive amounts of data that teams can gather on players, especially recently successful players, from replays as well as the time given between each match allows for some serious snipe tactics to be put into practice that can result in poor looking cheeses and boring play (which i'd do in the same position).
The reason MLG seems so much more interesting is due to:
The nature of the 3 day format means a reduced level of preparedness for players against others players, thus resulting in some much more dynamic and mechanic/build based play which is better than specific player focused timings and cheeeeeses.
The atmosphere is so much less sterile than the tiny crowd in the gom studio (seriously the applause sounds like there's 5 people there).
Being a brit means i can watch all leagues at reasonable times (though I do think 4am is a reasonable time to watch starcraft), however I prefer watching in the evening/at night when an MLG would be on rather than the morning which is when GSL is on.
The fact that MLG is finished within 3 days means that there is a sense of constant excitement followed by a feeling of completion, GSL doesn't really have either since the league goes on a decent while and seems to start all over again with no huge development of storyline.
Having said all that, I enjoy GSL when I catch it, even the tvt... so I dunno why I said all this :D
This is how I feel too. A 3 day tournament is much more exciting then a month long league season. Especailly at 4 am, especially with knowing who the grand prize winner will be after the RO8 and especially knowing that the finals are going to be a 4-0 cakewalk that lasts an hour or so.
Rinse/repeat
The western scene is just so much more exciting then the Korean scene.
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
Why don't you go and do brain surgery? You can go have fun with making no mistakes and with no luck involved.
It's different for viewers, who can see everything unfolding during the match, which is why luck can sometimes be really frustrating to watch. I like the luck, though, it definitely makes things interesting, even if sometimes it can make me rage.
On September 08 2011 12:49 blabber wrote: it's because they happen too often. If there were only 2 or 3 per year like OSL/MSL, it would be more interesting. But all GOM cares about is money so i doubt that will happen
I prefer it is on all the time.... pretty sure alot of people like it too. People don't have to watch seasons if they find it boring... I don't think GOM runs a tournament every single month just to make money.... lol.
On September 08 2011 12:49 blabber wrote: it's because they happen too often. If there were only 2 or 3 per year like OSL/MSL, it would be more interesting. But all GOM cares about is money so i doubt that will happen
whoa whoa whoa. they spend a lot of money on production for each season. that's really insulting you know. every player dreams of making more money, and if scbw had the chance i think they wouldve added more tournaments.
On September 08 2011 12:40 hoepie wrote: the format is stale because:
The skewed race ratio in favour of terrens, which we may have to put up with until other races catch up in the meta (and hellions are nerfed derp).
The massive amounts of data that teams can gather on players, especially recently successful players, from replays as well as the time given between each match allows for some serious snipe tactics to be put into practice that can result in poor looking cheeses and boring play (which i'd do in the same position).
The reason MLG seems so much more interesting is due to:
The nature of the 3 day format means a reduced level of preparedness for players against others players, thus resulting in some much more dynamic and mechanic/build based play which is better than specific player focused timings and cheeeeeses.
The atmosphere is so much less sterile than the tiny crowd in the gom studio (seriously the applause sounds like there's 5 people there).
Being a brit means i can watch all leagues at reasonable times (though I do think 4am is a reasonable time to watch starcraft), however I prefer watching in the evening/at night when an MLG would be on rather than the morning which is when GSL is on.
The fact that MLG is finished within 3 days means that there is a sense of constant excitement followed by a feeling of completion, GSL doesn't really have either since the league goes on a decent while and seems to start all over again with no huge development of storyline.
Having said all that, I enjoy GSL when I catch it, even the tvt... so I dunno why I said all this :D
This is how I feel too. A 3 day tournament is much more exciting then a month long league season. Especailly at 4 am, especially with knowing who the grand prize winner will be after the RO8 and especially knowing that the finals are going to be a 4-0 cakewalk that lasts an hour or so.
Rinse/repeat
The western scene is just so much more exciting then the Korean scene.
that's a really ignorant comment i must say. let me summarize MLG in your tone. Koreans get top 6. foreigners qq.
On September 08 2011 06:05 Blazinghand wrote: I think Code S is specifically designed to be exclusive and to require tournament wins or runner-upping to qualify. This seems like a much more "Code A" kind of thing to do, and Code A does have a qualifying tournament anyways. The current ways to get into Code S:
Win Code A
Do well in Code A, do well in up/downs
Win MLG
Code S is supposed to be a tournament only amongst the best of the best, champions fighting champions. I think for this reason gomtv has specifically avoided doing what you suggested.
The thing is, compared to the OSL and MSL, it's really fucking impossible to get into Code S. It's WAY TOO protective of its members (only the bottom 8 out of 32 drop out? Seriously?) And you wonder why there's no new blood? Wonder why there's none of these stars that are brutalizing the GSTL for their teams like DRG and others? The Code B "monsters" that artosis often talks about? It's because there aren't enough new spots opening up in the tournaments. 8 new spots open up for Code S each season, and 16 for Code A. The OSL is run a lot more like Code A (but with group stages that don't suck rather than more luck-based elimination brackets) except exchange "Code B to qualify" with "have a pro-gamer license to qualify"
The korean scene needs to let new blood into their tournaments more. The MSL and OSL both have 50% new qualifiers each season. It's a system that works. Code S gets 0 - they only get people we just saw win or do well in Code A. Code A gets all the new blood, and we get some really fucking amazing matches in it. This shouldn't be of any surprise to anyone.
Then you look at the prize money for Code S - you get paid a similar amount for dropping out 0-2 in code S as you do for winning Code A. Also ridiculous.
Eliminate the current Code A/S system and have a single tournament. Don't seed so damn many players (16 is good, though.) Have more group stages and less elimination stages, to reduce the number of elimination matches happening early in the tournament that should be in the finals. If MVP and Nestea meet in a RO16 group stage, they'll likely both get through, and 2 lesser players are defeated, while MVP and Nestea can't face each other again until the finals. More group stages = more likely to have awesome finals because you split up strong players onto opposite sides of the brackets.
Edit: oh, one more thing - if, for example, you have 16 players seeded into the round of 32, why not broadcast the final matches of the qualifier (to make up for lost broadcast rounds) so we can SEE more of the new blood that artosis talks about so much? These are matches like DRG vs Hero, after all! :D
I started watching GSL for protoss inspiration. With next season only having 5 of 32 toss in code S, it is hard to keep tuning in. TvT style of play is kind slow but does have its moments. Next season could have 20 of 32 terrans in code S. Unless you love watching TvT's you could be in for a boring season.
Like people stated, here are the problems with the GSL
- To frequent - Lack of race diversity - Studio to sterile and boring - Not many foreigners - Broadcasted at late hours - Format not exciting "code A being sorta meaningless etc." - Miss matches - Player specific builds "timings that are used to beat your specific opponent"
On September 08 2011 12:54 Pyre wrote: I started watching GSL for protoss inspiration. With next season only having 5 of 32 toss in code S, it is hard to keep tuning in. TvT style of play is kind slow but does have its moments. Next season could have 20 of 32 terrans in code S. Unless you love watching TvT's you could be in for a boring season.
Like people stated, here are the problems with the GSL
- To frequent - Lack of race diversity - Studio to sterile and boring - Not many foreigners - Broadcasted at late hours - Format not exciting "code A being sorta meaningless etc." - Miss matches - Player specific builds "timings that are used to beat your specific opponent"
race representation can be blamed on the metagame not the tournament. just so you know.
GSL is just too long. Its a 32 player pool stretched out over the course of a month. Most other major tournaments happen over a weekend. The action is much more fast paced and rapidly builds up, whereas the GSL is mostly grueling TvT that feels like work to be a fan of.
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
On September 08 2011 06:05 Blazinghand wrote: I think Code S is specifically designed to be exclusive and to require tournament wins or runner-upping to qualify. This seems like a much more "Code A" kind of thing to do, and Code A does have a qualifying tournament anyways. The current ways to get into Code S:
Win Code A
Do well in Code A, do well in up/downs
Win MLG
Code S is supposed to be a tournament only amongst the best of the best, champions fighting champions. I think for this reason gomtv has specifically avoided doing what you suggested.
The thing is, compared to the OSL and MSL, it's really fucking impossible to get into Code S. It's WAY TOO protective of its members (only the bottom 8 out of 32 drop out? Seriously?) And you wonder why there's no new blood? Wonder why there's none of these stars that are brutalizing the GSTL for their teams like DRG and others? The Code B "monsters" that artosis often talks about? It's because there aren't enough new spots opening up in the tournaments. 8 new spots open up for Code S each season, and 16 for Code A. The OSL is run a lot more like Code A (but with group stages that don't suck rather than more luck-based elimination brackets) except exchange "Code B to qualify" with "have a pro-gamer license to qualify"
The korean scene needs to let new blood into their tournaments more. The MSL and OSL both have 50% new qualifiers each season. It's a system that works. Code S gets 0 - they only get people we just saw win or do well in Code A. Code A gets all the new blood, and we get some really fucking amazing matches in it. This shouldn't be of any surprise to anyone.
Then you look at the prize money for Code S - you get paid a similar amount for dropping out 0-2 in code S as you do for winning Code A. Also ridiculous.
Eliminate the current Code A/S system and have a single tournament. Don't seed so damn many players (16 is good, though.) Have more group stages and less elimination stages, to reduce the number of elimination matches happening early in the tournament that should be in the finals. If MVP and Nestea meet in a RO16 group stage, they'll likely both get through, and 2 lesser players are defeated, while MVP and Nestea can't face each other again until the finals. More group stages = more likely to have awesome finals because you split up strong players onto opposite sides of the brackets.
You realize that a pretty huge percentage of progamers never made it into OSL/MSL in their entire careers right? - hell, pretty sure most of the people playing SC2 now from BW proteams never qualified for a starleague. Getting to Code S seems alot easier then getting into an OSL/MSL..... there were plenty of "practice monsters"(similar to "code b monsters") in broodwar that never played starleague games on TV.....
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
how bad dose it feel when you realize that there will never be a better GSL then fruitdealers run in GSL1?
JK
but ya the TvT's are driving me nuts. i have stopped watching the GSL's because of this. GSTL will always be much funner to watch because of the variety
On September 08 2011 13:02 Modernist wrote: I think most of these complaints will disappear WHEN Terrans aren't dominating as much as they are right now (wait for 1.4).
GSL is still awesome and getting awesomer every day.
Nope ... thats a myth caused by people who dont like Terran. There are simply more Terran players than there are non-Terrans and the distribution of races in the GSL represents that. Terrans are not "imba/OP" like you are suggesting and they arent dominating the GSL either. Just look at who won and you see that there is no race winning significantly more than the other.
On September 08 2011 13:02 Modernist wrote: I think most of these complaints will disappear WHEN Terrans aren't dominating as much as they are right now (wait for 1.4).
GSL is still awesome and getting awesomer every day.
Nope ... thats a myth caused by people who dont like Terran. There are simply more Terran players than there are non-Terrans and the distribution of races in the GSL represents that. Terrans are not "imba/OP" like you are suggesting and they arent dominating the GSL either. Just look at who won and you see that there is no race winning significantly more than the other.
Well, there's 2 races winning significantly more then one of them
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Bro he ain't hating on SC2. He's just stating the fact (fact = truth) that engagements last a few seconds and the game is over. It is indeed nonsense at times. But that said, SCII is evolving, there are lots more minor engagements happening all over the map. I'd like to see Protoss use more storm drop - how come no one has done it consistently??? SC:BW pros are probably like 'wtf these kids up to?'. At least we are seeing gosu zergs like SlayerSCoca doing baneling drops on mineral lines. total baller move
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
TvT used to be the best mirror match to watch, but since the upcoming of hellion stuff it's hecome completely unwatchable for me. The concept is still working, but i've always been a friend of GSL1, GSL2 or TSL3 formats
As somebody who has watched and loved every GSL cast since the beginning, I can say that the current 'lack of excitement' has to do with the casters.
Tastosis is still great, their style has become more refined since the beginning, and I love it. These two are awesome.
But for the rest of the casters, the same does not stand. Gretech decided to bring back two casters who didn't get the best reception from the community. Watching a DoA/Wolf or DoA/Moletrap or a Moletrap/Wolf cast really begins to grate (see Up&Down B). They aren't funny or interesting in the same way that Tastosis is. Their style hasn't gotten better, if anything they have all gotten more silly and less interesting to listen to.
I hope that the casters can realize their impact on their product and really start to wrangle themselves in so that the viewers can enjoy themselves more. Not to say I don't love watching GSL, but I wish Tastosis (or Tastosis calibur casters) could do each cast.
Well, other than the obvious issues with time zones, it just drags on for far too many days. Code A should not last as long as it does, and I could see Code S being compacted so that it takes only 60% as long to complete. I do understand that there is a limit to how much the casters can cast in a single day without going hoarse.
Also, as other people have pointed out, it's just been going on for a very, very long time. The quality of the games have improved, and the strategies are always changing, but over time it just loses its luster.
I still find GSL as entertaining as ever. People are always complaining about which ever race seems to be successful at the moment. Even if it is TvT there is still very high level play and that should be the most exciting part. MLG can be exciting but what percentage of games do we get to see?
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Bro he ain't hating on SC2. He's just stating the fact (fact = truth) that engagements last a few seconds and the game is over. It is indeed nonsense at times. But that said, SCII is evolving, there are lots more minor engagements happening all over the map. I'd like to see Protoss use more storm drop - how come no one has done it consistently??? SC:BW pros are probably like 'wtf these kids up to?'. At least we are seeing gosu zergs like SlayerSCoca doing baneling drops on mineral lines. total baller move
Key point: SC2 is one year old. "The last engagements last a few seconds and the game is over", "200/200 supply then losing the next minute". It depends on so many variables and the player can either make the right or wrong decisions. You make it sound so simple and boring.
I think something needs to change in GSL to shake it up a bit, maybe your suggestion or maybe something smaller scale but it's good people are talking about and thinking about alternatives/deviations to what we currently see.
I find MLG games to be more interesting as well, regardless of external factors (commentators etc) the players play more exciting styles and just seem to be more fun to watch. I find this strange considering the amount of non Koreans means it has an overall lower skill ceiling. That said I find the Korean players play more entertaining at MLG than during the GSL, I can't really understand/define it any better than that though.
didn't read all 24 pages, but... comparing gsl with mlg? 4 weekends full of all our casting heros and top players we all know and love versus nearly DAILY games, casting archon and "uh oh its not in my timezone and i have to pay for HD"?
yeah, you can stick to watching MLG and no GSL, but remind me please, when is next MLG? how many hours of stream does MLG provide per year and how many hours does GSL deliver?
it is like comparing a free magazine that is published once a month and a daily newspaper that comes from a foreign land.
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
On September 08 2011 06:05 Blazinghand wrote: I think Code S is specifically designed to be exclusive and to require tournament wins or runner-upping to qualify. This seems like a much more "Code A" kind of thing to do, and Code A does have a qualifying tournament anyways. The current ways to get into Code S:
Win Code A
Do well in Code A, do well in up/downs
Win MLG
Code S is supposed to be a tournament only amongst the best of the best, champions fighting champions. I think for this reason gomtv has specifically avoided doing what you suggested.
The thing is, compared to the OSL and MSL, it's really fucking impossible to get into Code S. It's WAY TOO protective of its members (only the bottom 8 out of 32 drop out? Seriously?) And you wonder why there's no new blood? Wonder why there's none of these stars that are brutalizing the GSTL for their teams like DRG and others? The Code B "monsters" that artosis often talks about? It's because there aren't enough new spots opening up in the tournaments. 8 new spots open up for Code S each season, and 16 for Code A. The OSL is run a lot more like Code A (but with group stages that don't suck rather than more luck-based elimination brackets) except exchange "Code B to qualify" with "have a pro-gamer license to qualify"
The korean scene needs to let new blood into their tournaments more. The MSL and OSL both have 50% new qualifiers each season. It's a system that works. Code S gets 0 - they only get people we just saw win or do well in Code A. Code A gets all the new blood, and we get some really fucking amazing matches in it. This shouldn't be of any surprise to anyone.
Then you look at the prize money for Code S - you get paid a similar amount for dropping out 0-2 in code S as you do for winning Code A. Also ridiculous.
Eliminate the current Code A/S system and have a single tournament. Don't seed so damn many players (16 is good, though.) Have more group stages and less elimination stages, to reduce the number of elimination matches happening early in the tournament that should be in the finals. If MVP and Nestea meet in a RO16 group stage, they'll likely both get through, and 2 lesser players are defeated, while MVP and Nestea can't face each other again until the finals. More group stages = more likely to have awesome finals because you split up strong players onto opposite sides of the brackets.
You realize that a pretty huge percentage of progamers never made it into OSL/MSL in their entire careers right? - hell, pretty sure most of the people playing SC2 now from BW proteams never qualified for a starleague. Getting to Code S seems alot easier then getting into an OSL/MSL..... there were plenty of "practice monsters"(similar to "code b monsters") in broodwar that never played starleague games on TV.....
Yeah, I'm aware. My point isn't about level of skill required, it's about how difficult it is to drop out of Code S once you make it, rather than how difficult it is to get into it in the first place.
Also, I might accuse myself of BW fanboyism if I read my own post, but I'm really not. I simply think the tournament format of the OSL is superior. (The MSL format is... well... somewhat weird. It's got its own charm.) Doesn't stop me from watching and enjoying many SC2 tournaments, but I posit this as a thing that the GSL could learn from to increase the competitivity (totally a word) of their "top SC2 players in the world" tournament.
even though he got warned i kinda agree with the first guy...
though not quite to the same extent =] i do like watching tvt and i don't rip my hair out when i see that match-up. but seriously there are a lot of terrans in code S... it does get a little stale. I don't really think that's a fault of the GSL system though, yes it's really hard to get into code S and facilitate up and coming players, but at the same time the best players in korea right now are already terran players.
On September 08 2011 13:06 GypsyBeast wrote: but ya the TvT's are driving me nuts. i have stopped watching the GSL's because of this. GSTL will always be much funner to watch because of the variety
I preety much agree here, ive been playing a lot of terran, and protoss, but seriously, ive had enough of tvt's. Yes, it is probably the best of all the mirror matchups, but some games are just absurdly long and boring. I really hope some toss and zerg's step up their game, if nothing else than to give us some variety. Not to mention MVP will probably mop the floor with TOP in the finals, making for an even worse bo7 finals than usual. imo anyways.
On September 08 2011 13:02 Modernist wrote: I think most of these complaints will disappear WHEN Terrans aren't dominating as much as they are right now (wait for 1.4).
GSL is still awesome and getting awesomer every day.
I wish I could believe this but I don't think 1.4 is drastic enough to change things up all that much.
On another note, I personally won't be watching GSL or any other tournaments till Toss players improve or some decent changes are made to the race.
***SPOILERS*** Alicia and MC getting knocked down to code A and protoss underpreforming in general sucks. Not to whine but protoss simply have been nerfed too much since release from people crying that the race is OP. Voids to colossi and even getting an undeserved storm nerf. Its cute and all trying to buff WP but drop harass is not the answer (or carrying HT in them) IMHO and toss relying on shitty allins compared to other races or their two clutch AOE units makes them too predictable...
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
Ah, the 'I'm not racist but...' technique.
And that was a great final, but there's been great finals in SC2 as well. To say no multitasking and battles in multiple locations happen in SC2 is an absurd statement and completely false. You're either being blinded by your love for BW or just incredibly ignorant. TvT with mech has plenty of mini battles that go on for positioning all the fucking time and that's just one example.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Bro he ain't hating on SC2. He's just stating the fact (fact = truth) that engagements last a few seconds and the game is over. It is indeed nonsense at times. But that said, SCII is evolving, there are lots more minor engagements happening all over the map. I'd like to see Protoss use more storm drop - how come no one has done it consistently??? SC:BW pros are probably like 'wtf these kids up to?'. At least we are seeing gosu zergs like SlayerSCoca doing baneling drops on mineral lines. total baller move
While it's not up to par in terms of average length of an engagement of BW, SC2 has come a lot further from its old days. There's a lot more harassment and there're also a lot of long battles. People have stop dying to one battle... most games these days tend to be long drawn out battles.
And come on, it's not as if BW doesn't have its short games ending after 1 battle.
And you have to pay for it. Isn't there something to be said about things being free? MLG is free to watch and is on at a convenient time for the majority of people that stream it online.
On September 08 2011 13:28 KingAce wrote: And you have to pay for it. Isn't there something to be said about things being free? MLG is free to watch and is on at a convenient time for the majority of people that stream it online.
It's free and prime time in Korea. Koreans probably say the same thing about MLG.
On September 08 2011 13:06 GypsyBeast wrote: but ya the TvT's are driving me nuts. i have stopped watching the GSL's because of this. GSTL will always be much funner to watch because of the variety
I preety much agree here, ive been playing a lot of terran, and protoss, but seriously, ive had enough of tvt's. Yes, it is probably the best of all the mirror matchups, but some games are just absurdly long and boring. I really hope some toss and zerg's step up their game, if nothing else than to give us some variety. Not to mention MVP will probably mop the floor with TOP in the finals, making for an even worse bo7 finals than usual. imo anyways.
After seeing MVPs games this season who do you think would be a closer match in a Bo7? The only player I can think of is maybe Bomber.
I don't have a problem with a 4-0, plenty of whitewashes happened in broodwar finals. I actually enjoy watching someone prepare and play so well that they completely dominate their opponent.
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
if you like something more than another that doesn't make you fanboy, does it? I already regret I mentioned bw here. "SC2 is one year old" is lame excuse. I bet after 8 year fans will cry "look, scbw evolved 10 years, just give us 1 more year". But I hardly believe sc2 will live that long. hope I'm wrong.
On September 08 2011 13:20 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:10 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
if you like something more than another that doesn't make you fanboy, does it? I already regret I mentioned bw here. "SC2 is one year old" is lame excuse. I bet after 8 year fans will cry "look, scbw evolved 10 years, just give us 1 more year". But I hardly believe sc2 will live that long. hope I'm wrong.
okay then. SCBW aside, you still don't give SC2 any hope. What the fuck is wrong with you? Why are you so negative about SC2? was SCBW perfect after 1 year? is ANY game perfected after 1 year?
On September 08 2011 13:27 Soulish wrote: GSL isn't as exciting to watch as MLG because the crowds are smaller and less enthusiastic
Have you ever been to the GSL? Please show evidence that what you're saying is fact.
I dont know which one to prefer ... the Korean shy girls turning away because the camera is on them OR the western idiots who start to behave really stupid once they notice the camera is on them (maybe even actively going to just that spot the "crowd cam" shows to be the cavemen they are). Personally I lean slightly towards the first, because we should have evolved away from the second one.
What I really hate from GOM spectators is the "clapping aids", which are yet another waste of resources and an excuse NOT to exert yourself when watching an awesome match which deserves real applause (and feetstomping). I wish they could stop with that ...
I think a different format would be a little better. But seeding players into code S like that is just stupid. Regardless, I still find gsl very entertaining.
On September 08 2011 13:28 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:27 Soulish wrote: GSL isn't as exciting to watch as MLG because the crowds are smaller and less enthusiastic
Have you ever been to the GSL? Please show evidence that what you're saying is fact.
I dont know which one to prefer ... the Korean shy girls turning away because the camera is on them OR the western idiots who start to behave really stupid once they notice the camera is on them (maybe even actively going to just that spot the "crowd cam" shows to be the cavemen they are). Personally I lean slightly towards the first, because we should have evolved away from the second one.
Heaven forbid, people actually get excited when they are on the camera. STOP HAVING FUN.
On September 08 2011 13:28 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:27 Soulish wrote: GSL isn't as exciting to watch as MLG because the crowds are smaller and less enthusiastic
Have you ever been to the GSL? Please show evidence that what you're saying is fact.
I dont know which one to prefer ... the Korean shy girls turning away because the camera is on them OR the western idiots who start to behave really stupid once they notice the camera is on them (maybe even actively going to just that spot the "crowd cam" shows to be the cavemen they are). Personally I lean slightly towards the first, because we should have evolved away from the second one.
Heaven forbid, people actually get excited when they are on the camera. STOP HAVING FUN.
The point is people show excitement and enthusiasm in different ways. Just because it doesn't look exactly like MLG when you're watching at 5 in the morning doesn't mean the fans are less enthusiastic.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Bro he ain't hating on SC2. He's just stating the fact (fact = truth) that engagements last a few seconds and the game is over. It is indeed nonsense at times. But that said, SCII is evolving, there are lots more minor engagements happening all over the map. I'd like to see Protoss use more storm drop - how come no one has done it consistently??? SC:BW pros are probably like 'wtf these kids up to?'. At least we are seeing gosu zergs like SlayerSCoca doing baneling drops on mineral lines. total baller move
While it's not up to par in terms of average length of an engagement of BW, SC2 has come a lot further from its old days. There's a lot more harassment and there're also a lot of long battles. People have stop dying to one battle... most games these days tend to be long drawn out battles.
And come on, it's not as if BW doesn't have its short games ending after 1 battle.
I'm not being ignorant. I know people try alot harassing and backstabing in SC2. But its less effective overall. Reason: 1. Chronoboost, larva injection and mules makes worker harassing pointless. If you have three bases you barely feel any damage. (Of course if you don't lose your whole worker line and expansion itself) 2. Its better to concentrate on making stronger ball and finish the game in one blow. Because there is nothing to buy time after you lose one battle. Except maybe siege tanks. Fungal sucks in that sense. Psi-storms are not option anymore.
On September 08 2011 13:28 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:27 Soulish wrote: GSL isn't as exciting to watch as MLG because the crowds are smaller and less enthusiastic
Have you ever been to the GSL? Please show evidence that what you're saying is fact.
I dont know which one to prefer ... the Korean shy girls turning away because the camera is on them OR the western idiots who start to behave really stupid once they notice the camera is on them (maybe even actively going to just that spot the "crowd cam" shows to be the cavemen they are). Personally I lean slightly towards the first, because we should have evolved away from the second one.
It's a TV show that happens in a big city in the evening during rush hour, ofcourse the crowd isn't going to be big everyday, they can just watch on their TV or their computer at home. It'd be the same in any country after the novelty of OMGESPORTS wore off. Broodwar studio matches didn't get big crowds except for when top top famous players were playing, Nestea always has a pretty big crowd whenever he plays as an example.
On September 08 2011 13:27 Soulish wrote: GSL isn't as exciting to watch as MLG because the crowds are smaller and less enthusiastic
Have you ever been to the GSL? Please show evidence that what you're saying is fact.
Well, it's certainly a fact that the up unto the finals the GSL crowds are much smaller. I've been to the GOM studios and they aren't that big plus you can see from broadcasts that even the small space they have is barely ever at capacity. I would say there would only be about 50 people there on average or less.
It's a bit hard to compare though because GSL is over several weeks whereas MLG happens in a few days.
You do get bigger crowds for the GSL finals which are held at bigger venues, though nothing compared to what you get for BW finals.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Bro he ain't hating on SC2. He's just stating the fact (fact = truth) that engagements last a few seconds and the game is over. It is indeed nonsense at times. But that said, SCII is evolving, there are lots more minor engagements happening all over the map. I'd like to see Protoss use more storm drop - how come no one has done it consistently??? SC:BW pros are probably like 'wtf these kids up to?'. At least we are seeing gosu zergs like SlayerSCoca doing baneling drops on mineral lines. total baller move
While it's not up to par in terms of average length of an engagement of BW, SC2 has come a lot further from its old days. There's a lot more harassment and there're also a lot of long battles. People have stop dying to one battle... most games these days tend to be long drawn out battles.
And come on, it's not as if BW doesn't have its short games ending after 1 battle.
I'm not being ignorant. I know people try alot harassing and backstabing in SC2. But its less effective overall. Reason: 1. Chronoboost, larva injection and mules makes worker harassing pointless. If you have three bases you barely feel any damage. (Of course if you don't lose your whole worker line and expansion itself) 2. Its better to concentrate on making stronger ball and finish the game in one blow. Because there is nothing to buy time after you lose one battle. Except maybe siege tanks. Fungal sucks in that sense. Psi-storms are not option anymore.
1. Chronoboosting your nexus means having less army production. Mules means less scans=gg to DT/Burrowed banelings/infestors/cloak ghosts/banshees. Enemies can focus down queens. 2. Mutalisks, siege tanks, hellions, drops, banshees, zerglings, baneling mines, DTs... seriously try actually watching SC2
GSL's format is fine . There are more talented and skilled RTS player in korea playing terran , maybe because it's the only race that feels complete , because blizzard made it that way so they could sell their overpriced expansions later . Since the only race that is complete is terran hence TvT is the best MU in the game . If you don't feel that way you shouldn't whine all the time about it , because it's not GOMs fault . The current GSL format is the best so far to ensure that the absolutely best players in the world play in code S .
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
He said it wrong, but I think he's right.
Too many TvT's, and T's in general.
A couple of tournaments ago, they stabilized the Code S lineup by making it so only the bottom placer of the group fell out to up and downs. They did it at a bad time: there were so many Terrans for whatever reason. It is thus harder now for the T dominated composition of S to change.
Even assuming that the game were completely balanced, then Terran would continue to have majority representation in Code S. The only way this can change is if Terran becomes the WEAKEST race, so Terrans start dropping like flies. But that's not fair.
Another solution is to let the bottom two of the group go to up and downs. That may be more fair.
In ANY case, it's not the players, it's the race, IMO.
On September 08 2011 13:28 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:27 Soulish wrote: GSL isn't as exciting to watch as MLG because the crowds are smaller and less enthusiastic
Have you ever been to the GSL? Please show evidence that what you're saying is fact.
I dont know which one to prefer ... the Korean shy girls turning away because the camera is on them OR the western idiots who start to behave really stupid once they notice the camera is on them (maybe even actively going to just that spot the "crowd cam" shows to be the cavemen they are). Personally I lean slightly towards the first, because we should have evolved away from the second one.
Heaven forbid, people actually get excited when they are on the camera. STOP HAVING FUN.
"Oh look, we are on camera ... lets behave like idiots ... "
Awesome concept and we dont have enough idiots on TV already (BigBrother, casting shows, "fake real life" shows, soap operas, childrens science shows, Paris Hilton & Co.(society idiots who are famous for being famous and not for something useful for humanity), ...). Its nothing special to be on TV and if you want to waste your 15 minutes of fame for behaving like a chimp go ahead.
Players have way too much time to prepare for a match, it just takes away the inspiration and adaptation in the matches, since they know mostly what their opponent likes doing/can do. Huk vs MVP set1 was not an interesting match, just a guy who did his research properly and build order win. Not inspiring or fun.
On September 08 2011 13:20 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:10 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
if you like something more than another that doesn't make you fanboy, does it? I already regret I mentioned bw here. "SC2 is one year old" is lame excuse. I bet after 8 year fans will cry "look, scbw evolved 10 years, just give us 1 more year". But I hardly believe sc2 will live that long. hope I'm wrong.
How on earth is that a lame excuse?? Why is it so hard to believe that the game is still being explored and refined when BW is still changing after more than 10 years?
I'll take that bet because the fact that SC2 would be around in 8 years means you're completely wrong. With two expansions to go you're kidding yourself if you think SC2 is going away anytime soon.
GSL is still the only thing i watch. I'll stay up for it, but i won't make a major effort to watch MLG (even though its a fantastic event) because without being a part of the crowd atmosphere its really just a whole lot of lower level games. I'd love to go live but i can't.
I've said this before, and maintain that Code S is too hard to fall out of. Two players from every pool should be in up/down matches, not one. It is revolting to me that you can win a single game and retain your code S spot for the next season.
If i accept the notion that GSL, or Code S in partucular is getting boring, then i am very quick to point to this problem of stagnant player pool. I love that they've giving the MLG Code S spot, and the Code A winner auto entry. But i would like to see a greater turnover of players and having bottom 2 go into up/downs i feel would be good. You could even start them up 1 game if you feel you have to if they finished third in their group or whatever. But at the moment i don't feel the system is fluid enough in ensuring that the cream rises to the top.
Every other issue is purely balance related. Whether its players unable to overcome specific builds, or just too many terran players. I do find this to be a problem. I enjoy TvT, but my favourite 3 match ups are all non-mirror. They're just inherently more interesting. Core to the game of SC2 is the fact there's 3 races. That's so important. There is only so many Bru Frame Herrions i can handle in a given week. It's oversaturation in the same way that seeing the same underperforming players still in Code S is boring.
MLG has this problem too. There's a few people who are still in the championship pools or whatever they're called because the system favours history rather than current performance. Its boring seeing the same people get smashed every season of GSL or every MLG event and still not lose their coveted spots. It's very sad when the open bracket has more players in it i want to see than the pools.
But overall i stil love my GSL. I've watched so much SC2 in the past year that i feel in general i need to cut back a bit. So i focus more and more on the players i want to see play. I'm so happy guys like DRG and Leenock are now Code S. I'm probably more excited for the next Code S season than ever before, despite the most recent code A demotion. Very sad about that.
To be quite honest I don't watch GSL as much as I used to either, but here is why.
IPL, KOTH.
Both these alone offer koreans now and good high level play, while IPL rebroadcasts a lot and at first I did NOT like that they did. I grew to find out "Wow it's really nice this way, I don't have to worry about vods or trying to get a better broadcast time."
I just wish GomTV would rebroadcast at a "US, EU" time which would be nice, do it using twitch.tv and expand your forms of revenue further. It really beats having to find vods you want to and don't want to watch online =P.
On September 08 2011 13:20 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:10 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
if you like something more than another that doesn't make you fanboy, does it? I already regret I mentioned bw here. "SC2 is one year old" is lame excuse. I bet after 8 year fans will cry "look, scbw evolved 10 years, just give us 1 more year". But I hardly believe sc2 will live that long. hope I'm wrong.
by the way when you mock and ridicule another game because you like another game instead counts as being a raging fanboy. if you only like SCBW then you will say "I like SCBW and I am not really into SC2." That's what Day[9] would say.
On September 08 2011 13:28 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:27 Soulish wrote: GSL isn't as exciting to watch as MLG because the crowds are smaller and less enthusiastic
Have you ever been to the GSL? Please show evidence that what you're saying is fact.
I dont know which one to prefer ... the Korean shy girls turning away because the camera is on them OR the western idiots who start to behave really stupid once they notice the camera is on them (maybe even actively going to just that spot the "crowd cam" shows to be the cavemen they are). Personally I lean slightly towards the first, because we should have evolved away from the second one.
Heaven forbid, people actually get excited when they are on the camera. STOP HAVING FUN.
"Oh look, we are on camera ... lets behave like idiots ... "
Awesome concept and we dont have enough idiots on TV already (BigBrother, casting shows, "fake real life" shows, soap operas, childrens science shows, Paris Hilton & Co.(society idiots who are famous for being famous and not for something useful for humanity), ...). Its nothing special to be on TV and if you want to waste your 15 minutes of fame for behaving like a chimp go ahead.
On September 08 2011 13:20 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:10 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
if you like something more than another that doesn't make you fanboy, does it? I already regret I mentioned bw here. "SC2 is one year old" is lame excuse. I bet after 8 year fans will cry "look, scbw evolved 10 years, just give us 1 more year". But I hardly believe sc2 will live that long. hope I'm wrong.
by the way when you mock and ridicule another game because you like another game instead counts as being a raging fanboy. if you only like SCBW then you will say "I like SCBW and I am not really into SC2." That's what Day[9] would say.
I'm posting this one and quitting this thread. It looks like I'm flaming and being flamed. whatever.
Back on topic, the topic was why GSL is becoming less entertaining. Several people stating its because tournament format, schedule, timing, balance and so on. I was telling the reason is game itself (game design to be exactly). I don't see any potential of sc2 to evolve into smth good. believe me i tried all scenarios in my head. I brought scbw to make an example, and thats all, I'm not a fanboy.
its just my opinion on why GSL boring. I see no reason to bash me for that. And hey I still like playing 3v3 in SC2, its most entertaining thing for me.
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
but you said:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
Actually I like 1/4 games of GSL. That's because the game is still not figured out and the only player to play consistently well is Nestea. He is so far ahead of everybody just because he is consistent. The most consistent race is Terran and again this shows (not a balance whine, just the current state of the game). We therefore see a lot of TvT which can be amazing or boring, depending on the players, as it can be very close or ridiculously one-sided. PvP and ZvZ is like that too but at least you don't have to wait another 10 minute for a game to end when one player clearly won.
I don't know why you say MLG is better though. The quality of games is actually worse. It's more 'exciting' and 'inviting' because its a one weekend live event and you never know who is going to be playing the next round. GSL is kind of the same except you have a few weeks to accept the fact that x player lost and then get a feel of the following events.
I wouldn't make a big deal out of it though. In other sports it's pretty rare a team that plays consistently well throughout the years. There's always that team who does good, but that doesn't mean they always win. You know what I mean. Chill, give it time.
I prefer the GSL to MLG still. All the players I care about are in the GSL and that makes it more entertaining for me. Tastosis don't cast enough games anymore though. There are so many Code A matches so there is way too much Moletrap and Doa.
On September 08 2011 13:28 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:27 Soulish wrote: GSL isn't as exciting to watch as MLG because the crowds are smaller and less enthusiastic
Have you ever been to the GSL? Please show evidence that what you're saying is fact.
I dont know which one to prefer ... the Korean shy girls turning away because the camera is on them OR the western idiots who start to behave really stupid once they notice the camera is on them (maybe even actively going to just that spot the "crowd cam" shows to be the cavemen they are). Personally I lean slightly towards the first, because we should have evolved away from the second one.
Heaven forbid, people actually get excited when they are on the camera. STOP HAVING FUN.
"Oh look, we are on camera ... lets behave like idiots ... "
Awesome concept and we dont have enough idiots on TV already (BigBrother, casting shows, "fake real life" shows, soap operas, childrens science shows, Paris Hilton & Co.(society idiots who are famous for being famous and not for something useful for humanity), ...). Its nothing special to be on TV and if you want to waste your 15 minutes of fame for behaving like a chimp go ahead.
You must be one of those guys that's angry about anything. Chill out allready -.-
i gave up on TvTs. I don't really watch any. I try to watch MVP and MKP but I even skipped the Code A Finals cuz of TvT. I just cant sit through it anymore. When I am watching TvT VODs, i end up skipping minutes at a time because the games are so long. So I watch GSL less because I don't watch TvT. I didnt even watch the Super Tournament finals :/
On September 08 2011 13:53 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:30 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:20 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:10 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
if you like something more than another that doesn't make you fanboy, does it? I already regret I mentioned bw here. "SC2 is one year old" is lame excuse. I bet after 8 year fans will cry "look, scbw evolved 10 years, just give us 1 more year". But I hardly believe sc2 will live that long. hope I'm wrong.
by the way when you mock and ridicule another game because you like another game instead counts as being a raging fanboy. if you only like SCBW then you will say "I like SCBW and I am not really into SC2." That's what Day[9] would say.
I'm posting this one and quitting this thread. It looks like I'm flaming and being flamed. whatever.
Back on topic, the topic was why GSL is becoming less entertaining. Several people stating its because tournament format, schedule, timing, balance and so on. I was telling the reason is game itself (game design to be exactly). I don't see any potential of sc2 to evolve into smth good. believe me i tried all scenarios in my head. I brought scbw to make an example, and thats all, I'm not a fanboy.
its just my opinion on why GSL boring. I see no reason to bash me for that. And hey I still like playing 3v3 in SC2, its most entertaining thing for me.
The LESSON i hope you learn from this is that you don't leave belittling comments because you will receive a response. I have not once complained about SC2 or any game in my posts, because I know each game has the potential of being great. If you have nothing good or constructive to say and just say "it lacks something", then keep those comments to yourself. thanks.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
He said it wrong, but I think he's right.
Too many TvT's, and T's in general.
A couple of tournaments ago, they stabilized the Code S lineup by making it so only the bottom placer of the group fell out to up and downs. They did it at a bad time: there were so many Terrans for whatever reason. It is thus harder now for the T dominated composition of S to change.
Even assuming that the game were completely balanced, then Terran would continue to have majority representation in Code S. The only way this can change is if Terran becomes the WEAKEST race, so Terrans start dropping like flies. But that's not fair.
Another solution is to let the bottom two of the group go to up and downs. That may be more fair.
In ANY case, it's not the players, it's the race, IMO.
In BW the maps were the key design for balance of each race.
Gomtv is trying to get "new blood" into code s but no foreigner to date has beat the korean players to get there. I'm kinda confused as to why gomtv should make a horrible double elim format to be like mlg when a foreign player can skip any korean qualifier by beating everyone in a 3 day tournament? I don't believe creating a new format is really gonna solve this issue.
On September 08 2011 13:53 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:30 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:20 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:10 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
if you like something more than another that doesn't make you fanboy, does it? I already regret I mentioned bw here. "SC2 is one year old" is lame excuse. I bet after 8 year fans will cry "look, scbw evolved 10 years, just give us 1 more year". But I hardly believe sc2 will live that long. hope I'm wrong.
by the way when you mock and ridicule another game because you like another game instead counts as being a raging fanboy. if you only like SCBW then you will say "I like SCBW and I am not really into SC2." That's what Day[9] would say.
I'm posting this one and quitting this thread. It looks like I'm flaming and being flamed. whatever.
Back on topic, the topic was why GSL is becoming less entertaining. Several people stating its because tournament format, schedule, timing, balance and so on. I was telling the reason is game itself (game design to be exactly). I don't see any potential of sc2 to evolve into smth good. believe me i tried all scenarios in my head. I brought scbw to make an example, and thats all, I'm not a fanboy.
its just my opinion on why GSL boring. I see no reason to bash me for that. And hey I still like playing 3v3 in SC2, its most entertaining thing for me.
Well that doesn't really explain why the OP is more interested in MLG than GSL though.
On September 08 2011 07:53 ZeromuS wrote: My issue is that I play protoss. Protoss has very little representation in the GSL. I do not learn anything from watching TvT which is the most common matchup. Therefore, while I might watch a TvT finals or semi finals, I do not particularly enjoy watching TvT because there is nothing for me to learn from the matchup. That is the only reason I dont enjoy GSL as much as I used to,
How most Protoss players feel summed up perfectly.
you guys do realize that next seasons code a will have an extreme amount of protosses
some of em will go to code s the season after that
On September 08 2011 07:53 ZeromuS wrote: My issue is that I play protoss. Protoss has very little representation in the GSL. I do not learn anything from watching TvT which is the most common matchup. Therefore, while I might watch a TvT finals or semi finals, I do not particularly enjoy watching TvT because there is nothing for me to learn from the matchup. That is the only reason I dont enjoy GSL as much as I used to,
How most Protoss players feel summed up perfectly.
you guys do realize that next seasons code a will have an extreme amount of protosses
some of em will go to code s the season after that
The amount of Protoss get into code S < the amount of Protoss got kicked out of code S. So eventually it will be very few left. For example next SS we're just gonna have 5-6 protosses compare to other seasons.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
He said it wrong, but I think he's right.
Too many TvT's, and T's in general.
A couple of tournaments ago, they stabilized the Code S lineup by making it so only the bottom placer of the group fell out to up and downs. They did it at a bad time: there were so many Terrans for whatever reason. It is thus harder now for the T dominated composition of S to change.
Even assuming that the game were completely balanced, then Terran would continue to have majority representation in Code S. The only way this can change is if Terran becomes the WEAKEST race, so Terrans start dropping like flies. But that's not fair.
Another solution is to let the bottom two of the group go to up and downs. That may be more fair.
In ANY case, it's not the players, it's the race, IMO.
So players like Bomber, MVP, MMA, and Top are in Code S because they are terran? Nestea won twice in a row and last season he didn't lose a single game the whole way there. It is all meta game, terran raped because they started to use marine blue flame and zergs were in this pigeon hole of ling bling muta no matter what and they were being extremely greedy. Now that they are making 2 spines, getting speed quicker and even making roaches these hellion openings are becoming very ineffective and the match up is something like 53-47% in the favor of the Terran which is not something anyone can say says a whole lot about the balance. Code A is filled with protoss and honestly players like MC really are not showing anything new to keep up with the meta game and are getting drowned out by new strats (Check vs MC Up and downs).
On topic. GSL is fine, just NA cares more about NA tournament and it's free to watch it live in good quality and time with free vods. The way the tournament is set up is great and is like an actual season instead of 5-6 stand alone tournaments that MLG has. If MLG actually makes the events matter and seem to build up to something then I would be more interested. But in 3 months when Naniwa, Thorzain, and Fenix are working their way from code A to Code S, tell me it isn't fun as hell to watch. I know I would watch Demuslim religiously if he was trying to get into code A because he is my favorite player and gives me the extra incentive to watch because he is a fellow brit and not just another really good korean.
best thing would be Semi Finals on Friday and Finals next day...or something like that. 1 week of practice is too much and is a big reason why GSL finals are so boring.
Dunno if it would change a lot tough, but GomTv should give it a try
I don't find it boring yet, but TvT is getting real old and is probably turning off a lot of viewers :S Unfortunately, Gom can't really do anything about this.
On September 08 2011 13:53 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:30 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:20 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 13:10 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:
On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote: I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier.
lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too....
what do you want?
I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened.
Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
if you like something more than another that doesn't make you fanboy, does it? I already regret I mentioned bw here. "SC2 is one year old" is lame excuse. I bet after 8 year fans will cry "look, scbw evolved 10 years, just give us 1 more year". But I hardly believe sc2 will live that long. hope I'm wrong.
by the way when you mock and ridicule another game because you like another game instead counts as being a raging fanboy. if you only like SCBW then you will say "I like SCBW and I am not really into SC2." That's what Day[9] would say.
I'm posting this one and quitting this thread. It looks like I'm flaming and being flamed. whatever.
Back on topic, the topic was why GSL is becoming less entertaining. Several people stating its because tournament format, schedule, timing, balance and so on. I was telling the reason is game itself (game design to be exactly). I don't see any potential of sc2 to evolve into smth good. believe me i tried all scenarios in my head. I brought scbw to make an example, and thats all, I'm not a fanboy.
its just my opinion on why GSL boring. I see no reason to bash me for that. And hey I still like playing 3v3 in SC2, its most entertaining thing for me.
Well that doesn't really explain why the OP is more interested in MLG than GSL though.
It's because they arn't the same thing, they're different kinds of events. He should be comparing MLG to DH or NASL finals etc.
I stopped watching GSL when it became Terrancraft. Personally I don't like that MU. GSL is not to blame. Ofc nobody is since sc2 is so very well balanced. Also, I miss Idra.
i think the tvt will turn off a lot of viewers, personally i stopped watching mostly cause of there being so much terrans and so little protoss. I dont think ill be watching next code s season with 5 tosses in it and 18-20 terrans(probably 20). dont see much chance of more tosses going past the group stage, this season huk and killer didn't go to up/down matches cause they got put in a group together and with a shitty zerg(violet).
my only problem with gsl is the amount of terrans and big international tournaments are usually balanced better racially.
new blood would absolutely not make me more interested in gsl unless its well known foreigners vs koreans. in fact id prob be less interested if i saw people ive never heard of before unless they had the skill to beat good koreans and not just add a bunch of speed bump games to code s.
also the lack of tasteless/artosis hurts. i dont even hate the other casters i just want the best 2 to do everything even though i know its kinda unreasonable. i only watch games that involve protoss if its 2/3 of the other casters.
Everyone hates TvT, we should make it PvP so everyone will watch and will be fully entertained and excited.
I feel like any mirror match in mass would bore anyone who doesn't truly like watching the game. If you are being turned off by a similar match up then it just sounds like you are looking for an excuse to not watch.
I watch regardless of match up and like to watch and learn from the best, if you are really that much of a race fanboy then go watch a stream. It has nothing to do with GSL vs MLG.
I know why you think GSL lost entertainment value. You've seen HUNDREDS maybe close to a thousand games. Also they've become a little gimicky with the weird player intros. Season 1-3 was great. Now with artosis and tasteless in semi retirement. Good replacements seem hard to find.
GSL is the only tournament I watch regularly, it is the least luck based tournament due to the time given to preparation for your opponents, it is also higher level of play than all other tournaments.
I've skipped MLGs in the past(most of last year + Dallas), and Ive never tuned in to even all the broadcasted games that happen ever at an mlg, but i rarely miss a GSL code S game unless I'm certain it will be terrible beforehand.
On September 08 2011 13:48 mistamike wrote: Players have way too much time to prepare for a match, it just takes away the inspiration and adaptation in the matches, since they know mostly what their opponent likes doing/can do. Huk vs MVP set1 was not an interesting match, just a guy who did his research properly and build order win. Not inspiring or fun.
I completely disagree, I found those games to be awesome and inspiring, and I love seeing new strategies or even adaptations of styles or all-ins that just work. Even though I was cheering for Huk those games were very impressive seeing MVP's preparation for the match. I guess I can't really sympathize with the view of a casual observer who's more there for the edge of the seat excitement and close games as opposed to the high level play; which needn't be one-sided, I'm sure there are games we both enjoy.
Overall I'd say I like both tournaments, and they both have a different feel to them. But GSL is definitely way better in my eyes. I even like the slower season format better.
So its kind of irritating reading some uninformed random OP that claims people don't like GSL or its not exciting etc and that it is flawed as a result, when I completely disagree.
This thread is just bad because I could make an "MLG might be losing entertainment value" and have the same amount if not more evidence relating to it. Make a blog next time, don't try and define the community as having your opinion. So you know some people who think GSL may be losing entertainment value, i know people who won't even tune into an MLG.
Wow, people complaining now that we have too much SC2? "WE NEED MORE ESPORTS, GROW THE SCENE! but wait, too much GSL." Incredible. It's one thing to talk about over saturation at low levels, but at the highest level? And the poster who said that if GOM was less selfish it would do everyone a favor and have fewer events... I don't even...
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: Some ideas. Im hearing alot from people that they think GSL is getting boring and they are watching MLG more and more cuz they like its environment / atmosphere better. They cannot put their finger on why, but they just are more entertained by MLG.
Long, long post there, but right from the start you're wrong.
GSL is not boring for me, yes TvT can sometimes be a snoozefest, but that has nothing to do with GOM, they can't help the game's balance/what race the good players play.
MLG is great and entertaining, but that's simply because it's a full weekend of games with a full tournament stuffed into it. You aren't going to capture that type of atmosphere by changing the participants in GSL, simply because it's so much more spread out.
Long story short, the current format is great and I'm so excited to see the new players in Code S every season. It's getting more and more ridiculously competitive every season, and there are less and less "unworthy" players left in each new iteration.
Seriously, take a look at the names in Code S of January and Code S now. Why the hell would you want to go back to where we were before?
The top 24 of 32 get seeded into the Ro32 of Code S. This is really quite ridiculous and causes stagnation.
In the MSL, the top 8 get seeded into the Ro32. There's plenty of room for new blood, while the top players are rightfully rewarded. Ideally the GSL would adopt this system, but I'd accept top 16 getting seeded into the Ro32 just fine.
But top 24/32 getting seeds is foolish. This is a game that is radically evolving, and a player could have been good 6+months ago but fallen way behind, but still holds a spot. An outdated and outclassed player can go 1-2 in the Ro32 and get seeded, and it is easier than it might seem because they could get their win over another outdated player who has hung on.
Also, besides Tastosis needing to cast more (less than 50% of the games is just not good), DoA/Moletrap needs to step up their casting imho - I like their passion for SC, but besides somewhat suspect game understanding, I think they really need to pick their spots when to get excited. They try to hype up every in game engagement, which isn't really the way to go about it.
I understand trying to sound excited and enthusiastic to bring life in the commentaries, but some times the games are just poorly played and needlessly trying to make it more exciting than it actually is kind of backfires more often than not. I mean, for instance you don't see basketball commentators going wild over every basket scored, its so that when there's something actually special (ie a sick slam dunk) you get the sensation of actual nerd chills.
Like yesterday, DoA was trying to hype up the battle between MC and Losira "will Losira hold?? Losira barely holds!!" when Losira completely roflstomps MC's army with a ton of units remaining. It just.. I don't know how to word it, it seems so wrong on so many accounts... =/
i think the problem with the GSL is the players have a week to prepare for every match-up. they come to every match over prepared with extreme knowledge of every build and tendency of their opponent. MLG is the exact opposite except for pool-play. players don't know who they're going to face, and they have little time to prepare. having a full week to prepare leads to boring chess matches. if you want to make the GSL more dynamic, take away the full week of preparation time. the players need to play multiple matches in a day. however; this is something the korean players don't seem to like, at least that's the impression i've gather from hearing a few of the complaints from the mlg's. gsl is left either catering to the players and allowing them ample time to prepare for each match-up, or catering to the fans and having the players play multiple match-ups in a day.
I would still buy tickets if i had the money.... but yes i agree that GSL has become less entertaining, i would still watch it yes... but its because I don't really have any1 to cheer for anymore... no foreigner ect.
Don't forget that MLG's or any other foreign tournament's main selling point are the Korean invites. Just look at the measly numbers IPL is getting. I don't know why GSL is losing some viewers but it's definitely not the players or the TvT's fault.
On another note, Code S is hard to achieve. You make it seem like a problem, but I want it to be exclusive. I want my favorite players to be in heights unreachable by common players. Cause lets face it, people view their ''idols'' as demigods, be it music bands, sports teams, artists w/e.
On September 08 2011 15:15 GrimReefer wrote: i think the problem with the GSL is the players have a week to prepare for every match-up. they come to every match over prepared with extreme knowledge of every build and tendency of their opponent. MLG is the exact opposite except for pool-play. players don't know who they're going to face, and they have little time to prepare. having a full week to prepare leads to boring chess matches. if you want to make the GSL more dynamic, take away the full week of preparation time. the players need to play multiple matches in a day. however; this is something the korean players don't seem to like, at least that's the impression i've gather from hearing a few of the complaints from the mlg's. gsl is left either catering to the players and allowing them ample time to prepare for each match-up, or catering to the fans and having the players play multiple match-ups in a day.
Yes ... very well put. The GSL style actually doesnt put "a player" against "another player" but rather "a player and his team and his preparation and his scouting of the other players tactics" against another such individual. There would be an easy solution to this: each rounds matchups are randomly decided ON THE SPOT, right before they play the games and all are played at the same time (and some are broadcasted later).
I gotta disagree there. In the OSL and MSL players get at least a week to prepare and it can work out spectacularly. There's nothing quite like seeing a well-prepared build come out perfectly. If you follow BW, it's why Fantasy is so good in individual leagues. To see a player understand both the map and the opposing player... makes the skill ceiling higher. This is a good thing. The super fast MLG is an entertaining alternative and I think both worlds (MLG and GSL) should exist rather than only have the MLG system.
On September 08 2011 15:33 Crisium wrote: I gotta disagree there. In the OSL and MSL players get at least a week to prepare and it can work out spectacularly. There's nothing quite like seeing a well-prepared build come out perfectly. If you follow BW, it's why Fantasy is so good in individual leagues. To see a player understand both the map and the opposing player... makes the skill ceiling higher. This is a good thing. The super fast MLG is an entertaining alternative and I think both worlds (MLG and GSL) should exist rather than only have the MLG system.
This. An MLG system has its place for sure, but for the hardest league in the world, i like tht players get preparation for their matches and we get to see some really specific refined builds. Of course, tht dosen't always always happen but i don't think the format can be blamed for the play from the players. Preparation allows us to see the highest quality games, and eventually when ppl get good, ppl will realise the effectiveness of the system.
As for the excitement, i think MLG is more exciting because it is significantly shorter with a ton of games. MLG is a 3 day tournament so it will always have an excitement edge over a 1 month tournament like GSL which stretches out over a long period of time. Also, MLG gives a rare chance to see Koreans vs Foreigners which is exciting to a lot of ppl, while in GSL, most of the matches are Korean vs Korean.
GSL is all about finding out who is the best player in the world each month. There is really no point of adding random ppl that haven't got enaugh skill to win the thing. If you want a random factor, watch the gom preliminaries and code A sometimes.
Imho the entertaining factor for myself is when i see someone good (MVP, Nestea, etc...) doing some innovative strategy or, some good timing and so on, so i can learn from it.
On September 08 2011 15:15 GrimReefer wrote: i think the problem with the GSL is the players have a week to prepare for every match-up. they come to every match over prepared with extreme knowledge of every build and tendency of their opponent. MLG is the exact opposite except for pool-play. players don't know who they're going to face, and they have little time to prepare. having a full week to prepare leads to boring chess matches. if you want to make the GSL more dynamic, take away the full week of preparation time. the players need to play multiple matches in a day. however; this is something the korean players don't seem to like, at least that's the impression i've gather from hearing a few of the complaints from the mlg's. gsl is left either catering to the players and allowing them ample time to prepare for each match-up, or catering to the fans and having the players play multiple match-ups in a day.
Yes ... very well put. The GSL style actually doesnt put "a player" against "another player" but rather "a player and his team and his preparation and his scouting of the other players tactics" against another such individual. There would be an easy solution to this: each rounds matchups are randomly decided ON THE SPOT, right before they play the games and all are played at the same time (and some are broadcasted later).
What? People really think giving players no preparation time results in better games? What are you smoking? Part of the magic of starcraft is the game that we get where one guy figures out someone else COMPLETELY, thats a GOOD game, where one player counters everything the other player does perfectly... not some game where it's two guys throwing mud and sticks at each other.
On September 08 2011 15:16 MyNameIsAlex wrote: GSL is great, what are you people talking about LOL!
?
See the dozens of reasonably articulated reasons why we disagree with you throughout the thread. That was an inane post.
Most of them aren't reasonably articulated though, 1/2 complain about terran. 1/4 complain about it being too easy to fall from Code S, 1/4 complain about it being too hard to fall from Code S.
Not to mention the whole premise of this thread is comparing two completely different events; MLG is comparable to other "event" type tournaments eg; Dreamhack, NASL Finals, IEM Finals etc. GSL is comparable to NASL regular season/IPL, I guess.
small audiences detract from the ambiance.. GSL audience isn't going crazy or anything.. their finals don't have the feel of finals from BW etc.
Aside from Artosis / Tasteless the casting doesn't grab me that much. I like the people involved but it isn't a DjWheat/Day9 / Tastosis pairing. I know casting is bitched about every-which-way but I really think the biggest league on earth should be working to up this aspect as a top priority. Increase production value surrounding them, add graphics, give em little side shows so we know em better or something.. these are just spit ball ideas of course but I dunno, maybe I am wrong
Prime time issue. Obviously with SC2 being global and GSL being in korea it is absolutely impossible to hit "primetime" (whatever that means these days) but 2am in USA and 10 am in EU.. kinda rough missing the mark there. Too late and too early respectively to get a bunch of hype so a lot of the viewing audience is relegated to vods where they are spread out and alienated from a unified excitement. This is of course a problem that can't really be overcome but someone somewhere should be getting paid good money to try and find a way to make this better.
same thing over and over and over again... each season kinda blurs together. I already think having a season a month basically is too much. I barely get to build suspense for who will win because we are already talking about the up/down matches and what the next season brings. The buildup for MSL / OSL was huge and I think GSL lacks that.
I mean overall hands down the GSL is the top dog. Most funding, best player, has Tastosis and is in the heartland. But I think this thread is cool because I have always felt there were a few things that are holding the GSL back. Hopefully my post is read as constructive criticism from a guy who wants them to succeed... they are the torchbearers if SC2 is to continue to spread and grow it will be largely in part because of the people the GSL reaches.
To me, the two are not really comparable. What I really love about MLG is that me and some friends hang out at someones place for a weekend and sit up all night watching everything! This is awesome and social. Though, the quality of the games in MLG are so much lower than in GSL, hence, if I'm looking to watch a game or two between lectures or so, I choose GSL everytime. So there it is. One is not better than the other, they're simply different!
I don't watch it because of immature idiots like tastosis. 90% of the time they talk about themselves and silly life they lead rather than game. Korean commentators are much more entertaining and professional and I don't even speak Korean.
On September 08 2011 16:15 tdt wrote: I don't watch it because of immature idiots like tastosis. 90% of the time they talk about themselves and silly life they lead rather than game. Korean commentators are much more entertaining and professional and I don't even speak Korean.
I think you might find that you're on your own with that one my friend.
On September 08 2011 16:15 tdt wrote: I don't watch it because of immature idiots like tastosis. 90% of the time they talk about themselves and silly life they lead rather than game. Korean commentators are much more entertaining and professional and I don't even speak Korean.
I think you might find that you're on your own with that one my friend.
Sure. I just prefer play by play rather than self aggrandizement, Never liked John Madden either for similar reasons.
How about sticking with the 8 groups of 4 with the current Bo1 format to determine "seeding" Ro32 has the 3rds playing the 4ths in Bo3 Ro24 has the 2nds playing the Ro32 winners in Bo3 Ro16 has the 1sts playing the Ro24 winners in Bo3
Ro32 - Ro16 (single bracket example)
1st ──────┐ 2nd ────┐ │ 3rd ──┬─┴─┴── 4th ──┘
This would have an additional 16 matches, 8 for the Ro32, and 8 more for the Ro24 which translates into four extra days of matches if 4 Bo3 is played per day. The system isn't fundamentally (or radically) changed since Ro16 and down remains the same and there are still 8 'last place' finishers that drop to the Up/Down matches.
On September 08 2011 15:16 MyNameIsAlex wrote: GSL is great, what are you people talking about LOL!
?
See the dozens of reasonably articulated reasons why we disagree with you throughout the thread. That was an inane post.
Most of them aren't reasonably articulated though, 1/2 complain about terran. 1/4 complain about it being too easy to fall from Code S, 1/4 complain about it being too hard to fall from Code S.
Not to mention the whole premise of this thread is comparing two completely different events; MLG is comparable to other "event" type tournaments eg; Dreamhack, NASL Finals, IEM Finals etc. GSL is comparable to NASL regular season/IPL, I guess.
All of the reasons mentioned are legitimate. Whether or not they were articulated well is a matter of opinion.
On September 08 2011 15:15 GrimReefer wrote: i think the problem with the GSL is the players have a week to prepare for every match-up. they come to every match over prepared with extreme knowledge of every build and tendency of their opponent. MLG is the exact opposite except for pool-play. players don't know who they're going to face, and they have little time to prepare. having a full week to prepare leads to boring chess matches. if you want to make the GSL more dynamic, take away the full week of preparation time. the players need to play multiple matches in a day. however; this is something the korean players don't seem to like, at least that's the impression i've gather from hearing a few of the complaints from the mlg's. gsl is left either catering to the players and allowing them ample time to prepare for each match-up, or catering to the fans and having the players play multiple match-ups in a day.
Yes ... very well put. The GSL style actually doesnt put "a player" against "another player" but rather "a player and his team and his preparation and his scouting of the other players tactics" against another such individual. There would be an easy solution to this: each rounds matchups are randomly decided ON THE SPOT, right before they play the games and all are played at the same time (and some are broadcasted later).
What? People really think giving players no preparation time results in better games? What are you smoking? Part of the magic of starcraft is the game that we get where one guy figures out someone else COMPLETELY, thats a GOOD game, where one player counters everything the other player does perfectly... not some game where it's two guys throwing mud and sticks at each other.
yeah totally. MC against Losira? (can't remember) in the GSL finals was awesome. the way he perfectly figured out his opponent and killed him with sentries/forcefields every time was one of the most entertaining series i have ever seen.
but seriously, maybe in the long run having a week to prepare is the best way to develop the meta game, but right now it's just meh... very few new builds seem to be coming out of all this prep time. i'd rather see the more natural skills of the players shine through, not who has the best practice partners.
What drew me to the GSL Code S has always been watching the pinnacle of SC2 action. They always had the very best players duking it out. I couldn't go anywhere else to see the best of the best play. Now with Koreans travelling everywhere, you can get that from a bunch of tournaments.
Don't get me wrong, I still love Code S. And I still watch most of the games. But I don't get hooked as much as I used to because I can see a MVP or MC or whoever compete elsewhere.
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: Some ideas. Im hearing alot from people that they think GSL is getting boring and they are watching MLG more and more cuz they like its environment / atmosphere better. They cannot put their finger on why, but they just are more entertained by MLG.
Ok im gonna bite this bait. You cannot compare GSL to MLG.
If GSL was run in the same way as MLG when it comes to streamimng we would have: 1 Match of the Ro32 casted - big chance of a well know player rolfstomping a weaker player. 1 Match of the Ro16 casted - as above - the casted match would be of some other big name.Some preety cool game will happen and then you get the info "Sorry we picked other two games so it wont be shown" by MLG staff. 2 matches of Ro8 - It would get better. We would have a 100% increase of the amount of matches streamed. of course as stated above. We could get some totally boring one sided games. 2 matches of Ro4 - Holy check... We get all the matches of the semis casted... What a nice surprise. 1 Final match - well you cant have more ^^
Ok the streaming point is done. Lets now compare the format: In GSL Code S we have 15 people fighting to stay or get into code S. Out of them only 6 will move on.
Now MLG and its pools.... To get into a pool play you need first get through the open bracket which could be somewhere from 256-512+ players. Only 4 people of it get into pool play - and even if they get there and place high they would still need to get through the open bracket at the next MLG. Once you get placed in pools you need a miracle to get kicked out of them.... Prime example is Incontrol. For the last few MLG all he is doing is win a ONE series in the entire MLG and he still stays in pool play.
To sum it up. MLG pool play system is more stagnant than the GSL code S. The only remedying factor is that MLG asks GSL to send in 4 players to liven up the pools a bit. But still. The amount of returning GSL invites is a bit sad since its once again stagnates the pool. Since there is a 50% chance of getting the same koreans for the next MLG.
To be honest before drawing a conclusion i would like to wait till 2012 season cause MLG hinted that they are thinking about revamping their tournament system which is way old and doesnt work well with the new boom of e-sports.
Still right now GSL > MLG when it comes to experience.
I can only speak for myself, but the reason I won't renew my GSL ticket next season is the ridiculous amount of terrans. I'm really fed up with TvT's atm...
I think part of the reason is not that Code S is not getting any "new blood", it's actually the opposite. A lot of the old "fan favourites" with history and interesting backstories have been knocked out of Code S and replaced with a new lineup of guys Terrans who, although they earned their place, don't have anything special going for them and aren't that well-known.
It's like in Open Season one, people complained that the games were boring not just because of the map pool and all-ins, but also because we had no idea who anyone was, and thus had no vested emotional interest in the outcome. At the start of 2011, things got a lot better because we already knew a lot about the Code S players, some history had developed, and we knew who the villains (Bitbybit, Idra) and heroes (Fruit, MC) were. We had someone to root for. But recently, as the "big names" start to fall from Code S, we're starting to see a lot of games between relatively unknown players again.
Fruitdealer is a prime example. As we've discovered this year, he's not really a Code S quality player, but the people love him anyway and he's a crowd-drawer. Maka is another player with a large following, based on his eccentric style and interviews in the past. But players like Fruitdealer, Boxer and Maka have been replaced in Code S by guys like asd, Happy and Virus. And don't get me wrong, all of these players earned their place and have a right to be there, but as of now they don't have any history or particular characteristics which separate them from the average Code S Terran player.
Some of the newcomers have managed to distinguish themselves, for example Keen with cool ceremonies and Coca with his MLG run and sick ZvP. But for the most part, when I'm watching GSL I hope that the games between noname players will be over quickly so that we can get to the "name value" games faster. Of course, there's nothing Gom can do about this, and hopefully over the next few months the race disparity will balance somewhat, but for now we're going to have to put up with a lot of not-so-exciting TvTs between relative unknowns, at least in the ro32.
Comparing GSL to MLG is kind of like comparing apples to oranges, but I'll say why I've not restarted watching GSL since the open seasons:
- stupid system that allows mediocre players to stop around in code S forever if they win one game a month (looking at you Tester), everyone bitches about how MLG's pool system allows Machine/Incontrol to stop around in perpetuity but nobody questions GSL. Code A, both in qualification and the tournament itself, is also a pathetically structured crapshoot
- the amount of Terrans in there really doesn't help. TvT is ok, but I love watching ZvP the most which happens so rarely
- has reduced itself to Koreans + Huk. I could get more excited when Jinro and Idra were top 8 contenders, now its just people I know nothing about. I know about some of those that switched from Brood War, but aside from those, who are you? Who is TOP? I can watch more or less every single foreigner streaming or in tournaments every week. I'm supposed to care about Jjakji why exactly?
Guess what- Sc2 is frikin imbalanced. The entire design of the Protoss race is broken. Protoss is terrible against Terran and zerg. The best Protoss player (MC) is in code a and now instead I get to watch more terrans in Code S (as if there were'nt enough before). Yay- go Terran. TvT is boring- slow and predictable. The Protoss race is lost and does not know what to do. Unless something changes I would not be surprised if their are like no Protoss players in Code S after 4 months.
GSL has lost all of its entertainment value for me. I play Protoss and want to watch Protoss play. I also hate watching ZvT, its my least favorite matchup. 27 terran and zergs in code s means lots of tvz.
On September 08 2011 16:11 iNcontroL wrote: small audiences detract from the ambiance.. GSL audience isn't going crazy or anything.. their finals don't have the feel of finals from BW etc.
Prime time issue. Obviously with SC2 being global and GSL being in korea it is absolutely impossible to hit "primetime" (whatever that means these days) but 2am in USA and 10 am in EU.. kinda rough missing the mark there. Too late and too early respectively to get a bunch of hype so a lot of the viewing audience is relegated to vods where they are spread out and alienated from a unified excitement. This is of course a problem that can't really be overcome but someone somewhere should be getting paid good money to try and find a way to make this better.
well it's funny you mention that, because one of my beefs with NASL was that they scheduled their show straight in the middle of primetime
if i have to choose between watching for example, a new futurama episode, or watching a starcraft game live, i'll watch the vod of starcraft later
now i'm not even that casual about starcraft, so imagine what someone who is would think if they had to choose between watching hot television show #43 or sc2
i know you're not directly associated with nasl but this has been something swirling around in the back of my head for a while so i thought it was kind of funny you brought it up
i think of all the leagues think TSL nailed the golden timeslot for starcraft, at 2pm on a weekend the most your average nerd will have planned is to be hungover
On September 08 2011 17:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: GSL has lost all of its entertainment value for me. I play Protoss and want to watch Protoss play. I also hate watching ZvT, its my least favorite matchup. 27 terran and zergs in code s means lots of tvz.
I would argue ZvT is the most dynamic match up in the game. But to each their own.
For me, GSL is the absolute pinnacle and I'm loving it at the moment. I do have some issues with its format, I consider Code S, a little bit too stagnant. I would prefer more newer blood every time. Right now, only 25% have a chance of falling down to Code A, I would prefer if 25% have a guaranteed chance of falling.
Apart from that, I can understand the concerns of the protoss fanboys. When terrans were not performing well, I definitely did not enjoy GSL as much. But now, I'm absolutely stoked If GSL had a 33% racial balance and 33% racial champions, I have a feeling this thread would not have existed.
I would like to extend some sympathy but I would by lying if I said I felt any. :p
There's too many Terran players and too many pretentious macro games. I don't want to sit and wait for 15 minutes while players max out, that's boring.
A lot of things Gom can't rectify. But one thing they can rectify is that god awful observer. I don't know how many times I see stuff happening on the minimap and the observer just shows random stuff that doesn't matter. I think one time I actually saw a drop on the minimap, and all the stuff died, and the observer still doesn't cut to it.
If you want to make viewers think they're watching the most gosu players doing the most gosu stuff, you might want to show them that. IMO, this is why I love watching Korean BW games a lot more than foreign tournaments. The Korean observer is so good at catching details that really show how much better the players are than regular guys like me.
I completely feel the other way around. GSL is much better then MLG imo, the format is just much better without stupid disadvantages for players having to play way too many games. The MLG winner is virtually always someone who won his pool, the advantage of getting far without having to play as much games then is just huge. When i watch MLG it just seems that 90% of the games don't matter (all the lower bracket stuff) as the winner coming out from that will just get demolished by one of the pool winners anyway. GSL has just had the bad luck that many matches recently have been boring, it's not really the fault of the system.
I'll watch MLG over GSL when Hell freezes over. Why would anyone ever do that? MLG has the worst tournament format that I know out of all big tournaments. Extended series pretty much always destroys the finals. GSL has the best players in the world, and the best casters. Case closed.
On September 08 2011 06:09 Hybris wrote: As a protoss player, I have lost alot of interest due to the severe lack of protoss players in code s. I still watch those protoss players religiously though.
Same here, it's been a little dull lately for Protoss players. I can only watch so many mass EMP victories that roll into infinite "OMG IS IT BANSHEE OPENING" TVTs before I stop watching.
At least when Zerg was at the bottom of the pile there were a couple champions holding it down.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
I would have to agree, watching tanklines sit around for a few hours is all good, but when that starts happening almost every day it gets real boring, real fast :/
For me GSL is much more entertaining than MLG because at MLG we see fights of "master league vs platinum" when it not korean vs korean, of course there are some exceptions. And Code S is challenge for best of the best. NASL is not very popular.
i think gsl format is kind of entertaining it is just that they have no power on the game balance and this is what is screwing up their format the most at the moment
I would have to agree that a major problem code S has is that every new player has to qualifiy for code A first. Code S is somewhat "pre-determined" in that you know that a huge portion of the players you see right now you'll see again next season.
In each and every sports, (nearly) each team has to re-qualify each season to get to the playoffs or w/e. The Dallas Mavericks could finish...last...in the next regular season for all we know. In soccer, qualifiying for the european champions league has to be achieved each and every year. Either through national league or by winning the champions league itself. In my opinion, only the code S winner and maybe the runner up should be guaranteed code S the next season. Each and everyone should have to requalify in a huge qualification tournament.
On September 08 2011 15:52 blooblooblahblah wrote: As for the excitement, i think MLG is more exciting because it is significantly shorter with a ton of games. MLG is a 3 day tournament so it will always have an excitement edge over a 1 month tournament like GSL which stretches out over a long period of time. Also, MLG gives a rare chance to see Koreans vs Foreigners which is exciting to a lot of ppl, while in GSL, most of the matches are Korean vs Korean.
I think GSL is far more exciting than MLG, mostly because of the extended series finals every single time, in a korean vs korean final it's EXTREMELY unlikely that they guy who's down two games will win. But to be fair GSL finals have also been terrible, but at least they're starting even on 0-0.
Overall I agree with incontrol about the MSL/OSL parts though, having less GSL's would definitely help. They could just do two months of team-league or something and then one month of GSL with an even larger prizepool, and have a lot of time between games starting at ro8 and just build hype.
When I started to watch more GSL, it was just a way to get some information about Korean players that we don't see often / at all in international events so that if they do get invited or qualify for international tourneys I don't stare blankly at their names and wonder why the community is having nerdgasms while I sit there asking "who the hell is that?" I hoped to be more excited and pumped when we get another Korean dominated top 8 in any given foreign event. So far my plan has worked out a little, but not to the extend I thought it would.
By now, most of the time I tune in to the GSL broadcast it ends up being more of a background noise that I listen to while I do other things (to the point where I enjoy listening to Tastosis talking between the games more than the actual cast of the games). There are still some great games, and some I still watch with interest, but those are significantly less than when I started watching Code S.
I can't really say why I can't get more excited about the GSL, be it Code A or Code S. I think partly because it is so dragged out. I can't really stay hyped up from one show to the other. In that regard, I like the MLG (or other 2-4 day offline events) more, but of course the big down side is that a tight schedule will always lead to great games not being casted, which can be really really upsetting. Personally, I dislike some parts of both the MLG's and the GSL's format, but in general I can readily accept the format as it is and still enjoy the games - if they are enjoyable.
Which leads me to another thing that others have also mentioned before is that the games seem kind of stale sometimes. Many games seem to be less dynamic. Maybe that is because the older the game gets, new strategies and counterstrategies will develope a bit slower. A lot of things have been figured out, and as long as they work and nobody comes up with a counter, there is no reason a player should not use them, even if it results in less entertaining games. But that way it happens that there you get a great match-up, but the games end up to be just not that entertaining, not living up to the expectation the big names promised. Maybe another factor for that is that since the Koreans started to travel to (and stomp through) tournaments outside of Korea and we see them compete in front of hyped up crowds in hyped events, GSL has lost some of its taste. It's not the only event we get to see Koreans play anymore (which is a good thing, of course, but I think it also leads to GSL losing some of it's uniqueness (is that even a word? o.O))
I should say that I do not share many people's dislike of mirror games, and that I usually enjoy TvT the most. But too much is too much. I really think that this is an issue, but none that can be solved by the players or the GSL. A different format would not stop Terran dominantion or create new strategies.
I guess for me GSL will stay a form of light entertainment that runs in the background, an in-between-big-events thing to provide me with my needed dose of SC2.
That being said, time to tune in to the Up-and-Down matches
Myself I can't put the finger on why my excitement for GSL is getting lower. I'm still buying tickets and watching every foreigner + recommended series/sick players versus each other. Think it might have something to do with the long format and the fact that I'm not really a big fan of any of the current players. There's HuK, but nobody else really. Hoping Hero and code-a foreigners do well, might get me pumped again
On September 08 2011 17:51 baubo wrote: A lot of things Gom can't rectify. But one thing they can rectify is that god awful observer. I don't know how many times I see stuff happening on the minimap and the observer just shows random stuff that doesn't matter. I think one time I actually saw a drop on the minimap, and all the stuff died, and the observer still doesn't cut to it.
If you want to make viewers think they're watching the most gosu players doing the most gosu stuff, you might want to show them that. IMO, this is why I love watching Korean BW games a lot more than foreign tournaments. The Korean observer is so good at catching details that really show how much better the players are than regular guys like me.
So true. It happens far too often the observer misses something that would be worth seeing and/or important.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
I paid for all GSL content since start, but I do have to admit I watch less these days, a few personal reasons:
I'm skipping most TvT's. I go to gomtv to watch some sc2 vods and only to see 4TvT today and close the site. Not GSL's fault, but I can't help it either
The lack of personalities. There are a few great characters, like MC, july, Huk, but most of the time I feel no emotion for either player and couldn't care less who wins. Korean high mechanic, good mannered, high skill robot X vs korean robot Y. Yes I miss Idra. Too few BM, too many boring, nice and polite players, "i want to thank my mum and dad for supporting me", too few drama.
I recently stopped liking the Korean pro's attitude towards global SC2 growth, which doesn't help for me getting excited to watch their matches either. - Top GSL koreans not going to foreign tournaments because they want to focus on GSL. - Koreans earning GSL code S via MLG and then not coming back to MLG. - Koreans boycotting NASL. "We only have the GSL, we need more tournaments. Hard to get sponsors or earn money with SC2 in Korea. So a group of people create a new tournament, great prizemoney. But, hey, it's not how we want it, change it, until then we won't come." Their choice of course. My choice to not like that choice
I'm actually looking forward to the NASL in a way I haven't been for any Gomtv content in a while. Although the level might be a bit less, I feel like the entertainment value will be a lot higher, because there will be more more errors, errors I make myself when playing, errors that I can learn from. But alos more characters, more entertaining personalities.
I love Tastosis, but I'm not sure if Tasteless is actually still playing the game...
I really miss the lovely silly Artosis/John interviews after the games, with awkward questions from the forum. Can't understand why they removed those.
On September 08 2011 15:52 blooblooblahblah wrote: As for the excitement, i think MLG is more exciting because it is significantly shorter with a ton of games. MLG is a 3 day tournament so it will always have an excitement edge over a 1 month tournament like GSL which stretches out over a long period of time. Also, MLG gives a rare chance to see Koreans vs Foreigners which is exciting to a lot of ppl, while in GSL, most of the matches are Korean vs Korean.
I think GSL is far more exciting than MLG, mostly because of the extended series finals every single time, in a korean vs korean final it's EXTREMELY unlikely that they guy who's down two games will win. But to be fair GSL finals have also been terrible, but at least they're starting even on 0-0.
Overall I agree with incontrol about the MSL/OSL parts though, having less GSL's would definitely help. They could just do two months of team-league or something and then one month of GSL with an even larger prizepool, and have a lot of time between games starting at ro8 and just build hype.
Don't they have to win 2x series in MLG's format too, even if it's not extended series? Might as well be down four games.
My only problem is imbalance of the game, I mean what was the last time you saw Protoss beat Zerg in Code S or in Up/Down matches. Before the game starts you just know protoss will lose, doesn't matter who plays. Trickster just lost to Violet and Trickster is better player, but can't beat Zerg, now way.
on the other hand, when players have to play 20 games against all different races, all within a weekend, they have no time to prepare for each match, then they start playing for standard openings, and produce longer, more entertaining games, since they just dont have the time to analyse an opponents playstyle and develop a build to counter. so to have abusive builds, they have to be developed and played essentially blind, which is a huge risk, and so you get players willing to rely more on playing standard games, and let their overall skill, whether it be micro and game or decision making take over, and thats where entertaining SC2 is produced.
Yes, I just love seeing every pro do the exact same complete standard build for a whole weekend straight. That's just awesome. I don't want to watch new strats at all, watching the same stuff over and over and over again is just so cool.
BUT TOO MUCH TVT OMG
My only problem is imbalance of the game, I mean what was the last time you saw Protoss beat Zerg in Code S or in Up/Down matches. Before the game starts you just know protoss will lose, doesn't matter who plays. Trickster just lost to Violet and Trickster is better player, but can't beat Zerg, now way.
Trickster isn't better than Violet, and he hasn't been good for a pretty long time.
well... terran players are just the best, most talented and have the best micro, and untill there is someone better you can't do too much about too many terrans in coode S ;]
If Code S is losing value, it's because there is SO MUCH Starcraft to watch that I can't watch all of it - I have to select carefully the best bits (persons I want to see most) and ignore the rest. If for me there's only HuK and MC in Code S, of course it may be boring. Some others may prefer other persons, but you get the point.
Even when games are boring I like to listen Tastosis analyse games, but I really can't stand Moletrap who is commentating like every other day. Doa and Wolf are good but It gets weird when Moletrap makes a bad joke.
On September 08 2011 18:50 Aiurr wrote: well... terran players are just the best, most talented and have the best micro, and untill there is someone better you can't do too much about too many terrans in coode S ;]
unless you want them to invite destiny ;]
I'm obviously not speaking as an expert here. But from what I see, assuming both players play at similar levels, I just generally expect Terran > Zerg > Protoss.
I have seen many times when terran plays sloppily and win. I have rarely seen any time when zerg or protoss make a mistake and not get horribly punished by such a mistake. Honestly, I just feel like zerg or protoss always has to "pay more attention at any given time". Because once you screw up, you're dead. You can defend 10 drops perfectly and that 11th one may kill you. You may defeat 10 terran pushes and screw up one time and have your templars get emped once, you then die. There seems very little margin for error.
I have seen many times when terran plays sloppily and win. I have rarely seen any time when zerg or protoss make a mistake and not get horribly punished by such a mistake. Honestly, I just feel like zerg or protoss always has to "pay more attention at any given time". Because once you screw up, you're dead. You can defend 10 drops perfectly and that 11th one may kill you. You may defeat 10 terran pushes and screw up one time and have your templars get emped once, you then die. There seems very little margin for error.
I disagree, terran play in Korea just feels a lot more refined and thought-through than protoss or zerg play, it probably has to do with the population of the race. There's just so much more terran players than protoss or zerg players, so they generally find new strategies and counter strategies and exploits much, much faster. Terran players have been dropping, using multi-pronged attacks and just generally using every single unit in their arsenal for months now, while MC has just found out the warp prism is, in fact, a protoss unit. For the same reason TvT is just, by far, the most refined matchup out of all of them.
I for one don't really care for MLG anymore as there's just so much time spent just waiting for games, and most of those games have lower quality players compared to the GSL. Also the extended series and open bracket of MLG is just confusing and not something to strive for imo. There's already several new players in code A and code S. Also there's old familiar faces that are fighting their way back into code S too.
Comparing the system of GSL and MLG is kinda weird as one features a price pool 10 times larger and requires more dedication. GSL is more about the long run, if you get into code A you need to, at least, secure your code A spot for the next season and hopefully get far enough to play in the up and downs. More volatility to me only means less stable league and worse players getting lucky against players that do consistently good in Code S.
The only thing i'd like to see is more indepth interviews and maybe even some small "Yellow to code A" stuff but with the different teams.
Im impressed by people who cant actually read. We say "Too much TvT is boring!", they counter with "TvT is teh MU with highes skill cap" and bring up examples like NaDa vs PuMa @MLG and stuff. Nobody ever said those games werent exciting. But compared to the mass of TvT in the SC2 scene (Code S especially) there are only a few exciting games to watch as non Terrans. And sice 2/3 of people arent Terran it gets boring if you see mostly TvT and once a week another matchup.
I can't stand this but I also can't leave it alone. It doesn't really matter and it seems super whiny to me to cry about it now and not after we have actually seen what it's like when it's all Terran.
Reason being, everybody will have to almost exclusively practice against terran if almost everyone is Terran. That means TvT, ZvT and PvT will make incredible leaps forward. Also it will be hard for Terran to adjust to Zerg and Protoss's innovations when they have to play Terrans themselves. Meaning in time either the ZvT and PvT will move towards the non terran becoming more dominant. Or the Terran that stays strong versus these races will lose or get knocked out earlier because he can't advance past all the strong Terrans that are practicing way more TvT than him.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I am assuming that it sort of works like this with the matchups at the highest level, where these things do matter. I wouldn't know if thats true but it seems logical.
With that said you can see why I think it's very whiny. The only way it can coverge to is back to more even ratios. And we gain a ton of development in the process. On top of that you can't change anything this is just the way it goes, this is competition. Learn to love it for all it brings.
TvT can be interesting now and then, but like every other snack you grow tired when you get stuffed with it. Of course, it also depends on the playstyle of the terrans. Watching MKP I find boring since it's to gimmicky, while MVP is dominating in his style and makes it a sort of (sexy) dance when playing.
But watching TvT, then some TvT only to have the winner face a new TvT all the way to the finals is just plain boring.
Next season I probably won't watch most of it other then the few matches I want to see (up/down, IM-matches etc).
I have seen many times when terran plays sloppily and win. I have rarely seen any time when zerg or protoss make a mistake and not get horribly punished by such a mistake. Honestly, I just feel like zerg or protoss always has to "pay more attention at any given time". Because once you screw up, you're dead. You can defend 10 drops perfectly and that 11th one may kill you. You may defeat 10 terran pushes and screw up one time and have your templars get emped once, you then die. There seems very little margin for error.
I disagree, terran play in Korea just feels a lot more refined and thought-through than protoss or zerg play, it probably has to do with the population of the race. There's just so much more terran players than protoss or zerg players, so they generally find new strategies and counter strategies and exploits much, much faster. Terran players have been dropping, using multi-pronged attacks and just generally using every single unit in their arsenal for months now, while MC has just found out the warp prism is, in fact, a protoss unit. For the same reason TvT is just, by far, the most refined matchup out of all of them.
I don't think it has anything to do with race population, just that Terran as a race has more options and a higher skill ceiling, allowing more player skill to translate into something substantial.
On September 08 2011 19:12 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
I have seen many times when terran plays sloppily and win. I have rarely seen any time when zerg or protoss make a mistake and not get horribly punished by such a mistake. Honestly, I just feel like zerg or protoss always has to "pay more attention at any given time". Because once you screw up, you're dead. You can defend 10 drops perfectly and that 11th one may kill you. You may defeat 10 terran pushes and screw up one time and have your templars get emped once, you then die. There seems very little margin for error.
I disagree, terran play in Korea just feels a lot more refined and thought-through than protoss or zerg play, it probably has to do with the population of the race. There's just so much more terran players than protoss or zerg players, so they generally find new strategies and counter strategies and exploits much, much faster. Terran players have been dropping, using multi-pronged attacks and just generally using every single unit in their arsenal for months now, while MC has just found out the warp prism is, in fact, a protoss unit. For the same reason TvT is just, by far, the most refined matchup out of all of them.
I don't think it has anything to do with race population, just that Terran as a race has more options and a higher skill ceiling, allowing more player skill to translate into something substantial.
I think this is a flawed belief and misconception. On the surface it does seem Terran has more options and it does allow for a deep amount of options but who is to say that isn't present in the other races. I'm sure it is, for some reason it's just been very unexplored. The HuK game where he micro's the warp prism with the HT's, dropping them storming, micro'ing them away. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that. Maybe it's super hard to do but isn't that a "super high skill ceilling" then?
i would say the super high skill ceiling is not to drop storms but to keep the warp prism and the templars alive instead of abadoning spellcasters which each race likes to do, but ghosts have cloak and most important: a-move is possible with them so they stick with ur army instead of hugging zealots
On September 08 2011 19:12 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
I have seen many times when terran plays sloppily and win. I have rarely seen any time when zerg or protoss make a mistake and not get horribly punished by such a mistake. Honestly, I just feel like zerg or protoss always has to "pay more attention at any given time". Because once you screw up, you're dead. You can defend 10 drops perfectly and that 11th one may kill you. You may defeat 10 terran pushes and screw up one time and have your templars get emped once, you then die. There seems very little margin for error.
I disagree, terran play in Korea just feels a lot more refined and thought-through than protoss or zerg play, it probably has to do with the population of the race. There's just so much more terran players than protoss or zerg players, so they generally find new strategies and counter strategies and exploits much, much faster. Terran players have been dropping, using multi-pronged attacks and just generally using every single unit in their arsenal for months now, while MC has just found out the warp prism is, in fact, a protoss unit. For the same reason TvT is just, by far, the most refined matchup out of all of them.
I don't think it has anything to do with race population, just that Terran as a race has more options and a higher skill ceiling, allowing more player skill to translate into something substantial.
I think this is a flawed belief and misconception. On the surface it does seem Terran has more options and it does allow for a deep amount of options but who is to say that isn't present in the other races. I'm sure it is, for some reason it's just been very unexplored. The HuK game where he micro's the warp prism with the HT's, dropping them storming, micro'ing them away. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that. Maybe it's super hard to do but isn't that a "super high skill ceilling" then?
Erm mc did that before... Besides thats just a micro trick... not more ''options'', not to speak of how easy that can get sniped.
On September 08 2011 19:52 legatus legionis wrote:
On September 08 2011 19:47 KimJongChill wrote:
On September 08 2011 19:12 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
I have seen many times when terran plays sloppily and win. I have rarely seen any time when zerg or protoss make a mistake and not get horribly punished by such a mistake. Honestly, I just feel like zerg or protoss always has to "pay more attention at any given time". Because once you screw up, you're dead. You can defend 10 drops perfectly and that 11th one may kill you. You may defeat 10 terran pushes and screw up one time and have your templars get emped once, you then die. There seems very little margin for error.
I disagree, terran play in Korea just feels a lot more refined and thought-through than protoss or zerg play, it probably has to do with the population of the race. There's just so much more terran players than protoss or zerg players, so they generally find new strategies and counter strategies and exploits much, much faster. Terran players have been dropping, using multi-pronged attacks and just generally using every single unit in their arsenal for months now, while MC has just found out the warp prism is, in fact, a protoss unit. For the same reason TvT is just, by far, the most refined matchup out of all of them.
I don't think it has anything to do with race population, just that Terran as a race has more options and a higher skill ceiling, allowing more player skill to translate into something substantial.
I think this is a flawed belief and misconception. On the surface it does seem Terran has more options and it does allow for a deep amount of options but who is to say that isn't present in the other races. I'm sure it is, for some reason it's just been very unexplored. The HuK game where he micro's the warp prism with the HT's, dropping them storming, micro'ing them away. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that. Maybe it's super hard to do but isn't that a "super high skill ceilling" then?
Erm mc did that before... Besides thats just a micro trick... not more ''options'', not to speak of how easy that can get sniped.
I'm not saying it hasn't been done before but that I haven't seen it before. And it does seem very unexplored. I don't understand why a strategy revolving around a micro tactic like that isn't on the same level as a strategy revolving around a different micro tactic, like making a banshee. My point would be that there's an unknown amount left to be explored making it impossible to make absolute conclusions like that.
It being easy to snipe is a non argument because that is only valid when the other person has the means to do so (making potentially useless vikings), and when the player in control allows it ("skill and adding personality to a play"). Even then, it's still an option. To expand on this, lets say you do zealot archon with this to do storms. They need to get vikings to stop it right? But you aren't making colossi so they are useless, you can just drop the templar and use it regularly and move the warp prism to do a warp in harass. This is way too theorycrafty so I wouldn't look into it seriously, but neither do I when you say it's easy to snipe it and that that alone makes it an option that cannot offer any value.
Yeah dropping a templar against korean players is so easy.. Hey MVP I'm gonna make a WP and go with it in your base, so I will have less units but will you be so kind and not attack me for like first 10 minutes of the game? Then please don't make any marines or any AA and please wait until my storm upgrade finishes then I may kill couple of your SCVs but please don't make mules after that.
You are right it is easy I guess Koreans are just 2 shy to ask politely.
And you don't ever ever ever ever need vikings to stop WP, marines take them easily enough.
Pro players aren't dumb, they have reasons why don't they use WP that often, especially against terran.
Yeah dropping a templar against korean players is so easy.. Hey MVP I'm gonna make a WP and go with it in your base, so I will have less units but will you be so kind and not attack me for like first 10 minutes of the game? Then please don't make any marines or any AA and please wait until my storm upgrade finishes then I may kill couple of your SCVs but please don't make mules after that.
You are right it is easy I guess Koreans are just 2 shy to ask politely.
And you don't ever ever ever ever need vikings to stop WP, marines take them easily enough.
Pro players aren't dumb, they have reasons why don't they use WP that often, especially against terran.
You're right, drops are terrible against terran, because of their insane mobility, instant reinforcements everywhere and great static defense they're just flat out useless, this is why we never see drops in TvT.
Professional players are called professional because they only do easy things and never try to revolutionize the game or come up with new strategies. Doing stuff like that is for bronze leaguers.
I feel like the issue is more that it's fucking hard to get into it, and really easy to drop out of it, I mean besides nestae every guy who ever won it has already dropped down to code a, because both the groups and the up & downs are using bo1's, given that the game is still really really young a lesser player will always be able to take a game of of a player he shouldn't be able to beat.
That and the fact that even terrans don't enjoy seeing the same matchup all the time.
Its like with sex, you need to have emotional involvement with the players, I'm personally no where near as interested as Protoss#3421348 battles against Terran#54293482 - as I am with EG'HuK playing against his teammate EGDeMusliM. Its about the players, its about their story, its about their past and what this match means to the people.
On September 08 2011 19:12 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
I have seen many times when terran plays sloppily and win. I have rarely seen any time when zerg or protoss make a mistake and not get horribly punished by such a mistake. Honestly, I just feel like zerg or protoss always has to "pay more attention at any given time". Because once you screw up, you're dead. You can defend 10 drops perfectly and that 11th one may kill you. You may defeat 10 terran pushes and screw up one time and have your templars get emped once, you then die. There seems very little margin for error.
I disagree, terran play in Korea just feels a lot more refined and thought-through than protoss or zerg play, it probably has to do with the population of the race. There's just so much more terran players than protoss or zerg players, so they generally find new strategies and counter strategies and exploits much, much faster. Terran players have been dropping, using multi-pronged attacks and just generally using every single unit in their arsenal for months now, while MC has just found out the warp prism is, in fact, a protoss unit. For the same reason TvT is just, by far, the most refined matchup out of all of them.
I don't think it has anything to do with race population, just that Terran as a race has more options and a higher skill ceiling, allowing more player skill to translate into something substantial.
I think this is a flawed belief and misconception. On the surface it does seem Terran has more options and it does allow for a deep amount of options but who is to say that isn't present in the other races. I'm sure it is, for some reason it's just been very unexplored. The HuK game where he micro's the warp prism with the HT's, dropping them storming, micro'ing them away. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that. Maybe it's super hard to do but isn't that a "super high skill ceilling" then?
Yeah sure, the possibilities exist, but are probably even higher placed skill-wise. The whole medivac dynamic is just an amazing way to reward good multitasking, whereas analogues for z/p require more of an investment in both attention and resources. I don't think z/p currently have the depth of terran; this is reflected in the dearth of zerg units, as well as the vast array of upgrades, abilities, and unique characteristics of terrans. With all of their buildings and siege tanks and static defense, terran can control space so much better than the other races, and create positional advantages. Z/P are unexplored, as is Terran, but I think it still stands that Terran have the more accessible, appealing, and relatively rewarding options
On September 08 2011 06:06 Vorrenus wrote: Hm, I wonder why GSL is getting boring prob because when its live its 240p and when its not i can't watch it at all.
Or maybe it's because you didn't pay the fee to watch their channel -.-' Don't complain about quality when you're being a cheap fuck who won't pay for almost unlimited top notch starcraft that costs as much as a sandwich.
My personal interest flattened a little bit with the failure of the protoss players. Mirror matchups are all very boring imo (unless there are arbitrary excitement factors, such as rivalry and whatnot. Yellow vs Boxer ftw), and especially TvT which we've seen alot of lately.
Why i dont like GSL: 1) Protoss suck more and more every season 2) Most series are TvT. Though it's interesting MU but it becomes boring when u must watch it so much 3) It hasn't youtube chanel (like nevake) and i must watch chineese commentaries which are just bad 4) Zerg suck too 5) Players dont seem enough hardcore. They seem more like celebrities than like sportsmen 6) Balance is bad after all T>all 7) There is no dominating players yet 8) Game is too young 9) Two semifinals Bo5 in one day is bad... 10) Bo7 is bad...
On September 08 2011 20:38 Jenia6109 wrote: Why i dont like GSL: 1) Protoss suck more and more every season 2) Most series are TvT. Though it's interesting MU but it becomes boring when u must watch it so much 3) It hasn't youtube chanel (like nevake) and i must watch chineese commentaries which are just bad 4) Zerg suck too 5) Players dont seem enough hardcore. They seem more like celebrities than like sportsmen 6) Balance is bad after all T>all 7) There is no dominating players yet 8) Game is too young 9) Two semifinals Bo5 in one day is bad... 10) Bo7 is bad...
This sounds to me as if some of those points then should apply to more SC2 events, not only the GSL...
1), 2), 4), 6) Terran is dominating pretty hard everywhere atm, not only in the GSL. I agree that it seems like it's the worst in Korea, and that Korean Terrans seem pretty much unstoppable, and I certainly understand that people do not always enjoy watching a thousand TvTs in a row. I feel the same, even though TvT is usually the mirror MU I like to watch the most. But balance-whining surely isn't a GSL phaenomenon
3) Why is not having a youtube channel an issue? There is an English cast and VoDs are available... Am I missing something here? I don't really understand why you would have to watch Chinese casting?
5) o.O Code S has the top notch of players. Many people would say that it doesn't get any more hardcore than this. (That doesn't necessarily mean top notch games, unfortunately, as they can still be boring and not entertaining. That doesn't make players less hardcore, though, imo.)
7) I think because it's not all set in stone yet makes it more exciting and fun to watch. We have yet to see who will become legendary.
8) Another point that you can't apply exclusively to GSL o.O Yes it is young. But it is as young in GSL as it is in MLG... As stated above, I think the reason for a lot of the excitement is that everything is still developing and players are still figuring things out, which can make for surprising new strats and awesome games. Though I personally think that after a year it is already starting to develope a bit slower. I may be wrong there, but it's just what it felt to me lately.
9), 10) Why exactly do you feel that way? Just curious, because I personally enjoy longer series, even though I have to say that when it's a TvT it can be REALLY exhausting to watch....
I don't know why people are saying TvT is boring. ZvZ and PvP is like rush-fest / 1 mistake you lose. Imagine the GSL terran situation is all switched to Zergs or Protoss, I think people would complain about all the ZvZ's and PvP's way more than they complain about TvT now.
TvP is pretty bad as well atm with all the 1-1-1s
The other MUs TvZ and PvZ is decent, and you can argue they're better than TvT all you want, but imo TvT is still one of the top 3 most interesting MU
I believe the problem lies mainly with the seeding system, why let the players choose their opponents? why not follow an established, mathematically valid system for placement of players in the brackets?
Also it would be better if the RO32 is not a dual Tournamet system but rather a round robin or a BO3 format.
The Dual tournament system may have worked for Broodwar but does not mean that Starcraft 2 should do the same , after all its not the same game, trying out something new won't hurt :D
On September 08 2011 21:29 sprychipper wrote: I believe the problem lies mainly with the seeding system, why let the players choose their opponents? why not follow an established, mathematically valid system for placement of players in the brackets?
Also it would be better if the RO32 is not a dual Tournamet system but rather a round robin or a BO3 format.
The Dual tournament system may have worked for Broodwar but does not mean that Starcraft 2 should do the same , after all its not the same game, trying out something new won't hurt :D
I think for several reasons: (not that I agree that they are good reasons)
1) It creates drama. The match selection show thingy is the closest thing that a lot of the typical drama hungry westerners had been asking for, and even for most other viewers, it is indeed very interesting and refreshing.
2) Unlike MLG, GSL is single elimination, so you can't distinguish between 3rd and 4th place w/o playing a meaningless placement match, same for 5th-8th, 9th-16th,and 17th-32nd etc. Therefore, it is really hard to have a valid seeding system w/o looking at previous seasons (ie using GSL point rankings), but that in itself potentially comes with a lot of other new problems as well (just look at MLG)
Mekare, the guy doesn't want to have to pay for the VODs. Youtube and Liquipedia are valuable sources for finding games when it comes down to BW. GOM doesn't have anything sorted and they don't hide spoilers. They still have a long way to go. -_-
You can call it hardcore all you want. There is close to no drama in the GSL. It's just a pain in the ass to follow and their finals are as anticlimactic as MLG's extended series rule coming into effect. People want drama. Now, what's the best way to infuse drama in the Korean scene? Make the players make selections by inserting a group stage and have them explain their logic. Group stages also allow the players to get more games in against others and it allows them to lose a game and not much more.
We need more rivalries. Player Selection ceremonies would go a long way to bring more drama. Make the players talk more.
The other guy wants them to stretch out their calendar. Something I don't really mind. I would like the players to have more time to prepare myself to insure we get the best games possible.
On September 08 2011 21:29 sprychipper wrote: I believe the problem lies mainly with the seeding system, why let the players choose their opponents? why not follow an established, mathematically valid system for placement of players in the brackets?
Also it would be better if the RO32 is not a dual Tournamet system but rather a round robin or a BO3 format.
The Dual tournament system may have worked for Broodwar but does not mean that Starcraft 2 should do the same , after all its not the same game, trying out something new won't hurt :D
I think for several reasons: (not that I agree that they are good reasons)
1) It creates drama. The match selection show thingy is the closest thing that a lot of the typical drama hungry westerners had been asking for, and even for most other viewers, it is indeed very interesting and refreshing.
Requiring drama i can Understand, but why club that with player seeding? Why not play a show match ? why not do a Monobattle? there are so many things that they can do with the amount of Talent there. :D
2) Unlike MLG, GSL is single elimination, so you can't distinguish between 3rd and 4th place w/o playing a meaningless placement match, same for 5th-8th, 9th-16th,and 17th-32nd etc. Therefore, it is really hard to have a valid seeding system w/o looking at previous seasons (ie using GSL point rankings), but that in itself potentially comes with a lot of other new problems as well (just look at MLG)
This
The reason I say that they need to try out a new system rather than the one currently in place .
We need more rivalries. Player Selection ceremonies would go a long way to bring more drama. Make the players talk more.
You realise they do this at the beginning of every Code S season, right? All Code S groups are hand-picked by the players themselves. Seriously, if you don't know anything about the GSL, then shut up with your criticisms.
Although I agree they should bring back the interviews with Artosis, outside of Code S players just don't have any personalities at all for us.
Why are people saying GSL might be losing popularity? Where does this argument come from? Did I miss an article somewhere saying they're selling less tickets this season or that the average number of spectators has gone down? Can someone link to it?
Terrans dominating Code-S, almost no Protoss, Nestea eating everyone(MVP survived him this season)
There are simply too many Terrans in Code S right now, several of them sub-par caliber (MKP getting back into Code-S? please) and it's hurting the GSL as a whole. The fact losira was literally cheesed out of Code-S this season was embarrassing. Most PvP is simply who 4-gates more effectively. There is a lot of stagnant play among the top elite and it leads to boring seasons.
Not sure what can be done but it has to be done fast or MLG is going to easily overtake them. Mind you Korean Terrans dominating every MLG so far hasn't really helped in any way either,
On September 08 2011 21:38 StarStruck wrote: Mekare, the guy doesn't want to have to pay for the VODs. Youtube and Liquipedia are valuable sources for finding games when it comes down to BW. GOM doesn't have anything sorted and they don't hide spoilers. They still have a long way to go. -_-
You can call it hardcore all you want. There is close to no drama in the GSL. It's just a pain in the ass to follow and their finals are as anticlimactic as MLG's extended series rule coming into effect. People want drama. Now, what's the best way to infuse drama in the Korean scene? Make the players make selections by inserting a group stage and have them explain their logic. Group stages also allow the players to get more games in against others and it allows them to lose a game and not much more.
We need more rivalries. Player Selection ceremonies would go a long way to bring more drama. Make the players talk more.
The other guy wants them to stretch out their calendar. Something I don't really mind. I would like the players to have more time to prepare myself to insure we get the best games possible.
I may be wrong but I believe they do this every season at the start of code S to make groups. Also it is pretty entertaining to watch. MC pretty much made fun of killer on behalf of Huk. I think most people just don't watch it as much since they don't publicize it much. Lemme see if I can find a link.
At this point, my brain gets infested with worms just thinking about watching a TvT
This is why GSL is so unappealing atm, this does also apply to other events - but it just seems so much worse in korea.. Havent been watching the last matches (semis, finals) in MLG latley either due to korean terran domination
3) Why is not having a youtube channel an issue? There is an English cast and VoDs are available... Am I missing something here? I don't really understand why you would have to watch Chinese casting?
this is one of the reasons why i don't watch. gsl's the only tournament that doesn't provide either free vods/replays or a free stream which doesn't require installation of an external proprietary media player. not that i'd actually be rushing to watch it in any case if they did have an in-browser stream unless i could get the korean stream easily
GSL is great sure they're are alot of tvt's but Terran seems to be the trend at the moment. Sorry that protoss and zerg players aren't able to step their game up. And try qualifying for Code A. It is sooooo hard. Best way to get into Code S in my opinion. I dont want no open bracket crap seeing randoms in Code S. Keep it up GOM. You guys are great
What you need to do next season is watch code A, GSTL, then select carefully which days of code S you'll want to watch This code S season had a lot of terrans already, but the brackets and group made it so we didn't have that much TvT. Next season tho perhaps it'll be different with again some more T.
Losing entertaining value? What are you talking about? This season MVP has fought and defeated 3 previous GSL champions. MLG will never have something like that... you guys seems to just like people cheering at Koreans when they take away foreigner money, and seeing Idra smashing his headphones.
If there's a lot of TvT, blame Dustin... not GomTV(t)
the biggest problem for me with the GSL compared to the BW starleagues is that in the GSL it is the majority of the players that get seeded into the next season(24) whereas in the BW starleagues like MSL(top 8 get seeded into the Ro32,the others get into the MST to face players form prelims) or the OSL (top 4 into the Ro16 the other 12 from Ro16 put into the dual tournament/Ro36).
Oh, I finally worked out my major gripe with this season. Production value.
This season had nothing...well nerd-chills worthy regarding production. Sure, there were those awkward Code S intros they canned (which were hilarious), but there was a lack of epic trailers, hype videos, additional content, etc.
I loved when they spent some time in the previous season (or before that?) to highlight MarineKing and oGsTheWind.
Some people have said it before, but as foreign viewers we're struggling to find the connection with the players. When our GSL experience is limited to listening to english casters and then watching the games, we're only getting what any halfway decent tournament can offer.
GSL is meant to offer us a portal into the Korean competitive scene. The personality of a scene is a part of it. As it is, this season felt like watching replays casted in english with the occasional half translated interview.
Been trying to work out why I haven't enjoyed this season as much as the previous few, and thought it was just me getting bored of sc2. However I've never so intently watched MLG and IPL has been looking good. GSL needs to step up its production game, I think that's it's current issue.
GSL can't do anything about the races. And though I do have an issue with the format, it's not bad, just not how I'd like it.
On September 08 2011 21:23 Fubi wrote: I don't know why people are saying TvT is boring. ZvZ and PvP is like rush-fest / 1 mistake you lose. Imagine the GSL terran situation is all switched to Zergs or Protoss, I think people would complain about all the ZvZ's and PvP's way more than they complain about TvT now.
TvP is pretty bad as well atm with all the 1-1-1s
The other MUs TvZ and PvZ is decent, and you can argue they're better than TvT all you want, but imo TvT is still one of the top 3 most interesting MU
TvT is boring because we've all seen it so many times. It doesn't matter if TvT is the best match-up ever, if you show it over and over eventually people will get tired of seeing it and at the moment that is definitely the case with TvT. When we first started seeing so many TvTs I was actually kinda happy because I enjoy it more than most match-ups but at this point I usually don't even pay attention when they come up. It really doesn't have much to do with the match-up itself as much as it does the repititiveness of seeing the same match-up so many times. There would be quite a bit of complaining if we had to see any match-up this much.
-Lack of good quality YouTube (I don't like hunting for VoDs and I don't want to pay for them, although I have paid in the past)
-Inconvenient screening times for live viewing in the EU
-Extremely poor quality picture (again, I don't want to pay for better qaulity)
-There is some drama in the GSL but I would prefer more of it.. basically I am sure story-lines would emerge if I could be more immersed in it, but that would require fixes to the above...
-After reading some other posts it seems the GSL could use more content focused on showing the personalities of the players, rivalries between the players, that kind of thing
Essentially it comes down to the fact I don't want to pay for it. There is enough starcraft2 around without the need to pay for it, even if it is the GSL.
yeah TvT is interesting and all, but it gets boring after watching it for 80% of the time! being a good XvT will get you far in any GSL. i will not be surprised if GSL will have like 1 P left at some time!
I know Code S is supposed to be top of the top,but the fact that the players are so protected that they need only 1 win in their group to stay in Code S really has its problems.
I think Gom need to open up their tournament format a bit,Code A is a lot more flexible and has varying race representation.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's anything that the GSL could do, or at least it would be very hard. One of the main reasons I like MLG more than GSL is that for most of the players, I can relate to them and their personality. For around 90% of the pool players I know where there from, how they've been doing lately, watched their streams, and so on. Even with the koreans who come over, its easier to identify them based off x win and y lose. What team their on and style.
Where I struggle with the GSL is that even after paying for months and months and watching, their just some korean dude to me. Sure I like nestea's style, but I don't get to watch him on a podcast. I can't come home from work and watch his stream. I don't get the chance to email him a question to be read on air, or pm him on teamliquid just telling him how much I enjoy watching him.
Like I said above, I dont think there's anything the GSL can do about it, its just different cultures and different communities and how they work, and it's all up to your personal preference.
GSL is still the best tournament in the world, because it has the best players in the world.
Their format isn't perfect, and their terran saturation is greater than desirable, but I'll still watch it to see the korean metagame and learn from the best (and laugh at TheBest).
On September 08 2011 22:36 bittman wrote: Oh, I finally worked out my major gripe with this season. Production value.
This season had nothing...well nerd-chills worthy regarding production. Sure, there were those awkward Code S intros they canned (which were hilarious), but there was a lack of epic trailers, hype videos, additional content, etc.
I loved when they spent some time in the previous season (or before that?) to highlight MarineKing and oGsTheWind.
Some people have said it before, but as foreign viewers we're struggling to find the connection with the players. When our GSL experience is limited to listening to english casters and then watching the games, we're only getting what any halfway decent tournament can offer.
GSL is meant to offer us a portal into the Korean competitive scene. The personality of a scene is a part of it. As it is, this season felt like watching replays casted in english with the occasional half translated interview.
Been trying to work out why I haven't enjoyed this season as much as the previous few, and thought it was just me getting bored of sc2. However I've never so intently watched MLG and IPL has been looking good. GSL needs to step up its production game, I think that's it's current issue.
GSL can't do anything about the races. And though I do have an issue with the format, it's not bad, just not how I'd like it.
Well, maybe for you, but i think at least some people - myself included - couldn't care less about the hype videos. I generally go do something else between matches, whatever is going on. Still, at least it's better than irrirating adverts and motionless crowd shots, a la MLG.
On September 08 2011 22:36 bittman wrote: Oh, I finally worked out my major gripe with this season. Production value.
This season had nothing...well nerd-chills worthy regarding production. Sure, there were those awkward Code S intros they canned (which were hilarious), but there was a lack of epic trailers, hype videos, additional content, etc.
I loved when they spent some time in the previous season (or before that?) to highlight MarineKing and oGsTheWind.
Some people have said it before, but as foreign viewers we're struggling to find the connection with the players. When our GSL experience is limited to listening to english casters and then watching the games, we're only getting what any halfway decent tournament can offer.
GSL is meant to offer us a portal into the Korean competitive scene. The personality of a scene is a part of it. As it is, this season felt like watching replays casted in english with the occasional half translated interview.
Been trying to work out why I haven't enjoyed this season as much as the previous few, and thought it was just me getting bored of sc2. However I've never so intently watched MLG and IPL has been looking good. GSL needs to step up its production game, I think that's it's current issue.
GSL can't do anything about the races. And though I do have an issue with the format, it's not bad, just not how I'd like it.
Eh? they are having Project A at the moment. That's way bigger than mini documentary about MKP or TheWind.
On September 08 2011 22:42 ronpaul012 wrote: To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's anything that the GSL could do, or at least it would be very hard. One of the main reasons I like MLG more than GSL is that for most of the players, I can relate to them and their personality. For around 90% of the pool players I know where there from, how they've been doing lately, watched their streams, and so on. Even with the koreans who come over, its easier to identify them based off x win and y lose. What team their on and style.
Where I struggle with the GSL is that even after paying for months and months and watching, their just some korean dude to me. Sure I like nestea's style, but I don't get to watch him on a podcast. I can't come home from work and watch his stream. I don't get the chance to email him a question to be read on air, or pm him on teamliquid just telling him how much I enjoy watching him.
Like I said above, I dont think there's anything the GSL can do about it, its just different cultures and different communities and how they work, and it's all up to your personal preference.
yeah its a verrrry personal problem in your case,but still SC2 pros are doing more for us that BW pros have ever done really.
On September 08 2011 22:30 ViTaLiTy17 wrote: GSL is great sure they're are alot of tvt's but Terran seems to be the trend at the moment. Sorry that protoss and zerg players aren't able to step their game up. And try qualifying for Code A. It is sooooo hard. Best way to get into Code S in my opinion. I dont want no open bracket crap seeing randoms in Code S. Keep it up GOM. You guys are great
When Zerg can make Lings/Roach and win 90% of their matchups (marine/tank takes skill) and toss can just go Zealot/Collosus and win 90% of their matchups you can come back and talk about stepping up their game. Terran play hasn't changed at all since Brood War and you come here with the gall to say it's the Zerg and Toss that are in the wrong.
GSL is going to be hard to watch this season from a protoss perspective. If Hero/Sage/Puzzle and Mc are unable to make it past the first rounds theres no reason to watch other then Tastosis and foreigner hope.
I would rather lose to the same Kr terran 50 times in a row then drop to diamond and lose 50 more times then see Mc get knocked out of GSL.
On September 08 2011 22:52 Swad1000 wrote: GSL is going to be hard to watch this season from a protoss perspective. If Hero/Sage/Puzzle and Mc are unable to make it past the first rounds theres no reason to watch other then Tastosis and foreigner hope.
Yea I'm really hoping that Puzzle and MC can hold their own. I'm not a huge fan of Huk, and don't think Naniwa is going to do that great despite how great his play has become since moving to Korea.
On September 08 2011 21:23 Fubi wrote: I don't know why people are saying TvT is boring. ZvZ and PvP is like rush-fest / 1 mistake you lose. Imagine the GSL terran situation is all switched to Zergs or Protoss, I think people would complain about all the ZvZ's and PvP's way more than they complain about TvT now.
TvP is pretty bad as well atm with all the 1-1-1s
The other MUs TvZ and PvZ is decent, and you can argue they're better than TvT all you want, but imo TvT is still one of the top 3 most interesting MU
Nobody is saying they like the other mirrors more than TvT.
People just don't like watching TvT all the time. Or even just terran all the time. This GSL featured a terran player in 91% of the total matches played. 91 fucking per cent. And next season will have more terrans and more TvT.
On September 08 2011 22:30 ViTaLiTy17 wrote: GSL is great sure they're are alot of tvt's but Terran seems to be the trend at the moment. Sorry that protoss and zerg players aren't able to step their game up. And try qualifying for Code A. It is sooooo hard. Best way to get into Code S in my opinion. I dont want no open bracket crap seeing randoms in Code S. Keep it up GOM. You guys are great
When Zerg can make Lings/Roach and win 90% of their matchups (marine/tank takes skill) and toss can just go Zealot/Collosus and win 90% of their matchups you can come back and talk about stepping up their game. Terran play hasn't changed at all since Brood War and you come here with the gall to say it's the Zerg and Toss that are in the wrong.
Christ you're a troll.
Spoken like a true gold leaguer. NOBODY (edit; maybe NesTea is)is winning 90% of their matchups. Obviously you have a hard time with Roach/ling or zealot/colossus. Not everyone does.
The problem inherent is that there just aren't the same number of high level players across the board for the Zerg and Protoss. This is undeniable. When you look through a list of the top players, in Korea or internationally, The Zerg have NesTea, Losira, DRG... ? That's it? (imo IdrA has fallen way off to be considered close to their level anymore). The Protoss have MC. *tumbleweed* .... and he's in Code-A. HuK? Nah, I can't buy into him. He's playing well lately, sometimes, but his games never look dominating enough to show that he's truly a step ahead of his opponents. The Terran have MVP, Bomber, Ryung, MMA, MKP, Puma, Optimus, I will stop the list here because my point is proven.
Terrans are winning more because they have an overall higher skill. A higher number of Code-S quality terrans as opposed to their other race counterparts leads to a higher Terran saturation.
If you check the Code-A qualifiers, the Terrans there actually did relatively poorly. That is because after this "best in the world" grouping of players (which, sadly imo, occupy nearly half of the GSL) you have a whole wave of high level protoss and zergs, that are all great players in their own regards, but just not at the same level of the rest of Code-S.
The post you quoted is worded terribly, but actually accurate. Zerg and Protoss players have not stepped their game up to match the level of the Korean Terrans. Whether that's a map, practice, balance, or game design issue is for someone else to debate. I have no interest getting into the circular semantics argument that becomes.
Even if your idea would be plausible, i'd have to disagree with letting so many players from the open tournament get into the code S tournament. If you are going to have seeds straight into what is no doubt the highest level of SC2 competition you cant make nearly half the tournament these kinds of seeded players. At best you could have a system similar to the NASL format where only the first place gets a seed into the code S pool play or something like that, amybe even have it like MLG where each pool has 1 open bracket slot. However you can't allow people to get seeded into a tournament any later than the first round, especially not if they got there by bypassing the grueling Code A + up/down format.
I used to watch GSL religiously, now I rarely do (even though I still buy tickets for GSL+GSTL -- *boggle*).
Here's an assorted list of reasons why I've become less interested:
1) GSL normally starts streaming at 5am in my time zone.
Sure, I could keep up with waking up to watch it live for a few months, but I can't make a long-term habit out of it. And even though I've purchased access to the VODs, I rarely watch them. Why? Same reason that LAN tournaments are more exciting than online tournaments -- without a sense that the action is "happening right now," there's just not as much of a draw.
2) The GSL schedule is oversaturated/too frequent.
As soon as one champion is crowned, we launch straight back into a new season in such a short amount of time. There's no time to appreciate any of the accomplishments made. By comparison, MLG Raleigh felt mildly lackluster compared to MLG Anaheim (for me, at least). Some of that might have been the hurricane and the diminished crowd, but surely a portion of it is that the two events were spaced too closely together.
3) Inevitable Korean dominance.
Yeah, I'll say it. It's not fun watching the Koreans win every. single. time. If my friends and I kept getting stomped by some older guys at the basketball court, eventually we'd find another place to play on our own. Even MLG was more exciting when it felt like there was some mystery to who would actually pull out the big win. Now the winner of each MLG is relegated to a choice from the set of whichever-Koreans-showed-up-this-time, the occasional foreign hero (HuK, Naniwa, etc.), and a prayer of a hope that IdrA can last an entire event without early GG'ing.
How does this relate to GSL? Well, it was a lot of fun when Jinro and IdrA were competing successfully. That era ended, and my attention for GSL began to wane quickly. It's probably the same reason I never got into professional Brood War -- I don't think everyone is psychologically built to be able to just pick up a favorite player from a different culture, thousands of miles away, and follow them religiously.
4. No Tastosis in Code A = "Who cares about Code A?"
Pretty straightforward. With all of the caster juggling that happened in Code A, and the low-quality show that resulted (for at least a number of seasons), I got tired of Code A. I'm sure it's better now, but since I already have my "Starcraft viewing rhythm" down now (with all of the great events in the international scene), I would need a reason to go back.
5. GSL feels unstable.
I'm not entirely sure I can clearly articulate this one. Basically, it feels hard to pick a favorite player and stick with them, given their tournament format. One season, my player could make it to the Ro4 Code S, and I'll be super excited. A few seasons later, in the total course of 3-4 matches played, my player is struggling to re-qualify for Code A. Oh.
Even count the number of "big name" Korean mega-gosus who have fallen to Code A after a series of Code S success. Mix that with #2 (The GSL schedule is oversaturated/too frequent), and you've got a great recipe for turning off fans.
---
Meh. :/ I realize it's still the best-of-the-best -- the pinnacle of Starcraft 2 skill. I want to want to watch it. But...
I don't watch GSL a lot because all games seem to be the same. They lack the european/foreign creativity and style. Yeah, there is the occasional new style, but it gets soon adopted and all others are then playing exactly the same.
Yes, the players are probably 10 times better than almost all foreigners, but they play TOO perfect to be entertaining and they all play only to win, not to entertain.
This is why i like tournaments like the shoutcraft invitational a lot more. Yeah, the players are worse but the games are a lot more fun to watch. The players show that they care about their fans and want to provide entertainment.
In short: Want to watch the best players: Watch GSL. Want to have fun while watching SC2: Watch foreign tournaments.
On September 08 2011 23:07 Morfildur wrote: I don't watch GSL a lot because all games seem to be the same. They lack the european/foreign creativity and style. Yeah, there is the occasional new style, but it gets soon adopted and all others are then playing exactly the same.
Yes, the players are probably 10 times better than almost all foreigners, but they play TOO perfect to be entertaining and they all play only to win, not to entertain.
This is why i like tournaments like the shoutcraft invitational a lot more. Yeah, the players are worse but the games are a lot more fun to watch. The players show that they care about their fans and want to provide entertainment.
In short: Want to watch the best players: Watch GSL. Want to have fun while watching SC2: Watch foreign tournaments.
GSL is the exact opposite for me. I want to see a protoss play a style that can deal with something like 1-1-1 and do stuff that make foreigners look terrible.
After watching the toss play so desperately against terrans lately it ruins everything.
for me it is pretty easy. I play zerg, so whenever i have the time (vacations, cannot watch during normal times) i want to watch a zerg player (sometimes even protoss players since i played P in BW) I watched about exactly as much TvT as i watched zerg players / protoss, which makes about 10 matches total. That is not much to be honest. Also, i was really disturbed on how bad the matches were. I enjoyed about 2 out of those 10 matches (and weird enough, they were TvT's), because they appealed to me as being high-level competition. But usually it's not the better player who win, it's the player who makes less stupid mistakes.
I agree that the GSL has been less interesting the last seasons, and for me at least, it has alot to do with the fact that Artosis and Tasteless is seen a lot less nowadays. Compared to a few months ago, they are getting A LOT less screen time. I mean, sure, they were having a tough time casting both the Code A, Code S and the Team League, so hiring additional casters were a logical thing to do. But now, we are seeing more of the other casters than Tastosis, and that's pretty huge for me at least, since Tastosis is like a huge reason for why GSL is so much better than other tournaments. I hope we'll see them casting more GSTL and Up/Downs in the future.
Its easier to indentify with players in MLG, it feels closer. MLG is like starcraft 1 progamers without the star feel to it. When more stars like MC arises (him and Nada feels like the true stars to me) then GSL will be more interesting again, you want to look forward to a match for days (weeks?) with great buildups etc.. :s
The only selling point of GSL for me is Nestea tbh but i always tune in when there is a quarter finals or finals. GSL is all about timing (attack), koreans players are so sick in their timing. While foreign tourneys are pretty giving us a chance to see our favourite players (and then proceed to give away the 1st prize to korean ).
and yes TvT is a big turn off for me. I dislike PvP too but i dont mind to watch ZvZ, this is just a personal preference. seriously when i see most of the players in R8 are terrans i just dont care about the game anymore.
Man people are giving so many reasons why they don't like the GSL anymore. Is anybody else worried that subscriptions will fall to much and GSL will become unprofitable? Or is the plan to just yell at people on the forums to buy the GSL for esports and tell them how cheap they are if they don't.
Easy - Terran domination. I am Protoss player and I want to watch high-level Protoss games. Current metagame doesnt allow it. Therefore, I dont watch SC anymore. PM me when Protosses are back in GSL, kthx
On September 08 2011 23:07 Morfildur wrote: I don't watch GSL a lot because all games seem to be the same. They lack the european/foreign creativity and style. Yeah, there is the occasional new style, but it gets soon adopted and all others are then playing exactly the same.
Yes, the players are probably 10 times better than almost all foreigners, but they play TOO perfect to be entertaining and they all play only to win, not to entertain.
This is why i like tournaments like the shoutcraft invitational a lot more. Yeah, the players are worse but the games are a lot more fun to watch. The players show that they care about their fans and want to provide entertainment.
In short: Want to watch the best players: Watch GSL. Want to have fun while watching SC2: Watch foreign tournaments.
Nobody plays too perfect, in a year we will look back at these GSL games and laugh at how bad they are.
For me, GSL isn't something I want to watch, as when it's on, I am usually asleep and there is no point in watching it later, as the viewer can hardly identify himself with and of the koreans. In MLG though, there are a lot of foreigners, who you can idenfity with, hate, like, etc. and the appearances of the koreans add a little flavour to it, as everyone wants to beat them. So it's hyped up.
I don't give a damn about so many of the stonefaced-koreans and if one cannot feel the hype, as there is no connection between the players and the viewers, then superior play doesn't matter all that much :-(
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned for this? He's right. I like watching TvT, just not over, and over, and over...
And as a Protoss GSL is just too depressing generally. And the predictability - Nestea will win unless he faces MVP, and otherwise a strong Terran will win.
On September 08 2011 23:06 Dayrlan wrote: I used to watch GSL religiously, now I rarely do (even though I still buy tickets for GSL+GSTL -- *boggle*).
Here's an assorted list of reasons why I've become less interested:
1) GSL normally starts streaming at 5am in my time zone.
Sure, I could keep up with waking up to watch it live for a few months, but I can't make a long-term habit out of it. And even though I've purchased access to the VODs, I rarely watch them. Why? Same reason that LAN tournaments are more exciting than online tournaments -- without a sense that the action is "happening right now," there's just not as much of a draw.
2) The GSL schedule is oversaturated/too frequent.
As soon as one champion is crowned, we launch straight back into a new season in such a short amount of time. There's no time to appreciate any of the accomplishments made. By comparison, MLG Raleigh felt mildly lackluster compared to MLG Anaheim (for me, at least). Some of that might have been the hurricane and the diminished crowd, but surely a portion of it is that the two events were spaced too closely together.
3) Inevitable Korean dominance.
Yeah, I'll say it. It's not fun watching the Koreans win every. single. time. If my friends and I kept getting stomped by some older guys at the basketball court, eventually we'd find another place to play on our own. Even MLG was more exciting when it felt like there was some mystery to who would actually pull out the big win. Now the winner of each MLG is relegated to a choice from the set of whichever-Koreans-showed-up-this-time, the occasional foreign hero (HuK, Naniwa, etc.), and a prayer of a hope that IdrA can last an entire event without early GG'ing.
How does this relate to GSL? Well, it was a lot of fun when Jinro and IdrA were competing successfully. That era ended, and my attention for GSL began to wane quickly. It's probably the same reason I never got into professional Brood War -- I don't think everyone is psychologically built to be able to just pick up a favorite player from a different culture, thousands of miles away, and follow them religiously.
4. No Tastosis in Code A = "Who cares about Code A?"
Pretty straightforward. With all of the caster juggling that happened in Code A, and the low-quality show that resulted (for at least a number of seasons), I got tired of Code A. I'm sure it's better now, but since I already have my "Starcraft viewing rhythm" down now (with all of the great events in the international scene), I would need a reason to go back.
5. GSL feels unstable.
I'm not entirely sure I can clearly articulate this one. Basically, it feels hard to pick a favorite player and stick with them, given their tournament format. One season, my player could make it to the Ro4 Code S, and I'll be super excited. A few seasons later, in the total course of 3-4 matches played, my player is struggling to re-qualify for Code A. Oh.
Even count the number of "big name" Korean mega-gosus who have fallen to Code A after a series of Code S success. Mix that with #2 (The GSL schedule is oversaturated/too frequent), and you've got a great recipe for turning off fans.
---
Meh. :/ I realize it's still the best-of-the-best -- the pinnacle of Starcraft 2 skill. I want to want to watch it. But...
I have a question. Why do you feel that the Koreans always have to be "them (random older dudes)" and non-Koreans have to be "us (you and your buddies)"? If it was someone from your own country, then I can understand a bit more, but it's rather difficult for me to sympathize with "anyone but those Koreans" sentiment.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned for this? He's right. I like watching TvT, just not over, and over, and over...
And as a Protoss GSL is just too depressing generally. And the predictability - Nestea will win unless he faces MVP, and otherwise a strong Terran will win.
fucking gay isn't a nice thing to write, that's why he was warned.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned for this? He's right. I like watching TvT, just not over, and over, and over...
And as a Protoss GSL is just too depressing generally. And the predictability - Nestea will win unless he faces MVP, and otherwise a strong Terran will win.
Because "Fucking gay" is no way to convey that message.
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: Gomtv can create a 10 dollar entry online KR-server double-elimination open-tournament every season to prevent scrubs from signing up. Next, the top 16 from this tournament are not code S however they get to be seeded into the code s tournament to create a interesting "new blood" element.
What happens is code S will have its NORMAL ro32 action take place, with 16 players advancing to the ro16.
Next, those 16 players will each face off in a bo3 against one of the 16 "new blood" players". this will cause the tournament to in a sense have two "round of 32" 's. in this sense, it will make each gsl code s tournament have a chance where its completely possible for a "new face" to beat mvp in the second round of the tournament and knock him out and make it interesting.
no one would enter code a anymore when the top 16 of this online tournament would give them a code S seat.
And personally I prefer GSL over MLG. I just cant stand those long breaks with no action going on plus the players can prepare more for their matchup thus hopefully more innovative and effective builds will arise in the long run
On September 08 2011 23:07 Morfildur wrote: I don't watch GSL a lot because all games seem to be the same. They lack the european/foreign creativity and style. Yeah, there is the occasional new style, but it gets soon adopted and all others are then playing exactly the same.
Yes, the players are probably 10 times better than almost all foreigners, but they play TOO perfect to be entertaining and they all play only to win, not to entertain.
This is why i like tournaments like the shoutcraft invitational a lot more. Yeah, the players are worse but the games are a lot more fun to watch. The players show that they care about their fans and want to provide entertainment.
In short: Want to watch the best players: Watch GSL. Want to have fun while watching SC2: Watch foreign tournaments.
GSL is the exact opposite for me. I want to see a protoss play a style that can deal with something like 1-1-1 and do stuff that make foreigners look terrible.
After watching the toss play so desperately against terrans lately it ruins everything.
yeah we could see a lot of fun games until like May or so...
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: Gomtv can create a 10 dollar entry online KR-server double-elimination open-tournament every season to prevent scrubs from signing up. Next, the top 16 from this tournament are not code S however they get to be seeded into the code s tournament to create a interesting "new blood" element.
What happens is code S will have its NORMAL ro32 action take place, with 16 players advancing to the ro16.
Next, those 16 players will each face off in a bo3 against one of the 16 "new blood" players". this will cause the tournament to in a sense have two "round of 32" 's. in this sense, it will make each gsl code s tournament have a chance where its completely possible for a "new face" to beat mvp in the second round of the tournament and knock him out and make it interesting.
no one would enter code a anymore when the top 16 of this online tournament would give them a code S seat.
And personally I prefer GSL over MLG. I just cant stand those long breaks with no action going on plus the players can prepare more for their matchup thus hopefully more innovative and effective builds will arise in the long run
don't forget the added benefit of watching the best players in the world :D
I'm interested in GSL but I don't watch it much because :
1) Having to pay every month or so to watch vods (which are the only way I can watch the games, otherwise it's just too early for me) is too expensive.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Why was this guy warned for this? He's right. I like watching TvT, just not over, and over, and over...
And as a Protoss GSL is just too depressing generally. And the predictability - Nestea will win unless he faces MVP, and otherwise a strong Terran will win.
Because "Fucking gay" is no way to convey that message.
Fair enough. I think he was just expressing quite how wearing it is. I guess I'm one of those homos who doesn't mind the word being used like that :|
Only watching GSL for Tastosis to be honest. lost my interest in GSL itself after kellys first appearance. (btw i really miss those artosis/john questions after the games )
Since there's so much negativity I feel I should at least chime in with a positive opinion.
I'm more excited about the GSL than ever and watch it more consistently than at any point in the past.
From a spectator perspective I don't care that TvT dominates because it's I think it's the most interesting matchup right now. It's developed more rapidly than any other over the past few months, has more variation than any other, more refinement than any other, and even seem more skill dependant than any other. And even if this weren't the case, it's a reflection of the game. The only way GOM could fix it would be to change their map pool (which I believe has always been standard for BW), but changes like that take time to propagate, and who's to know what patch changes Blizzard will bring alot to shake up things and suddenly, combined with the maps, make Terran completely UP. It's just the way the game is. The alternative is to have so-and-so underperforming Protoss players seeded in based on name value or previous (irrelevant) performance and see them knocked out in the first round.
I don't care that it's all Koreans dominating or some nonsense, because I want to see the best players and that's it. Why even watch a Korean dominated sport if you want to root for your guys?
I don't care that there's casters other than Tastosis, because I don't watch GSL for the casters, I watch for the games.
I don't think the format is too unstable. Whenever a player has fallen down to Code A, it's been because he played badly. Yeah it sucks seeing guys I like failing, but it's not like they're getting proxy-2-gated or 6-pooled or close-spawn-Metalopolised out of games.
The only thing I'd suggest could be a problem is the rapid succession of seasons with little downtime. But even that is more a necessity of GOM's monopoly (which isn't even really their fault) than anything else.
I love GSL. It's not losing entertainment value for me and I will continue to watch it.
Truthfully I do think it's getting a little boring compared to events like MLG, but not because of the quality of the games or the match ups, but the fact that you don't get to see their personalities beforehand.
In MLG they do pre-match interviews where players can showboat, trash talk or just answer plainly, but it helps the viewer identify with the player on some level. There's a complete lack of this in GSL at least until the grand final, so all you do is watch them come to play their game.
I really dont like the production, especially that silly k-pop crap. The players themselves dosn't have enough character as well, I guess its easier to connect to foreigners. Actually the only GSL matches I watch are either with foreigners or top-players only like MC
I personally dont feel that gsl code s is getting boring. I myself only watch gsl anymore because there are just too much tournaments going on. MLG is at crappy time, european tournaments most of the times too, gsl is perfect and has the best players in it. Only code a is getting due to worse commentators a bit less enjoyful, but I switched to listening to music while muting the vods which works too
On September 09 2011 00:32 Strydor wrote: Truthfully I do think it's getting a little boring compared to events like MLG, but not because of the quality of the games or the match ups, but the fact that you don't get to see their personalities beforehand.
In MLG they do pre-match interviews where players can showboat, trash talk or just answer plainly, but it helps the viewer identify with the player on some level. There's a complete lack of this in GSL at least until the grand final, so all you do is watch them come to play their game.
Just my two cents.
Ever watch the group selections? They're excellent. And even if you don't want to sit through the whole thing, they show relevant and amusing snippets for each player before the first round matches every season. They also do post-match interviews. I'm not quite sure you've actually watched recent seasons to make this judgement.
I don't particularly like the Code system, regular starleague formats seem more exciting. Having underdogs break through into the finals is always exciting, remember the Royal Roaders of BW?
Code S is also starting to get more and more terrans making it increasingly boring to watch.
They also need to get with the program and make sick intros like the OSL/MSL to hype the players more. Slightly longer gaps between leagues would also increase my interest. Maybe 1 tournament over 2-3 months.
I don't watch GSL because the interesting Koreans are already competing abroad and I don't want to go to the trouble of getting the GOMTV thing to work. Simple enough.
The only reason I find MLG entertaining is because its a "weekend event". GSL is on a few times a week during every month, where all the MLG action is taking place at once.
The GSL model is the effective one for a league, MLG is effective as a tournament series. They are just 2 completely different models which appeal to different people. I'm lucky that both appeal to me.
On September 09 2011 00:48 Acritter wrote: I don't watch GSL because the interesting Koreans are already competing abroad and I don't want to go to the trouble of getting the GOMTV thing to work. Simple enough.
oh come on, pressing the play button is to hard? Some excuses here make me wonder how some ppl even can play on a PC.
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: Gomtv can create a 10 dollar entry online KR-server double-elimination open-tournament every season to prevent scrubs from signing up. Next, the top 16 from this tournament are not code S however they get to be seeded into the code s tournament to create a interesting "new blood" element.
What happens is code S will have its NORMAL ro32 action take place, with 16 players advancing to the ro16.
Next, those 16 players will each face off in a bo3 against one of the 16 "new blood" players". this will cause the tournament to in a sense have two "round of 32" 's. in this sense, it will make each gsl code s tournament have a chance where its completely possible for a "new face" to beat mvp in the second round of the tournament and knock him out and make it interesting.
no one would enter code a anymore when the top 16 of this online tournament would give them a code S seat.
they need to just bin code a and operate how the osl did:
- offline qualifiers for anywhere up to 24 spots, reduce this if you want to give some away in MLG exchange etc, but ffs do it in a swiss format rather than the stupid retarded best of three knockouts - those 24 players face off in one on one matches, winner of each match plays someone at random who got knocked out in the previous season's round of 16/quarter final - 12 winners of that join the previous season's semi-finalists, 4 groups of 4 top 2 advance gogogo
On September 09 2011 00:44 Scarecrow wrote: I don't particularly like the Code system, regular starleague formats seem more exciting. Having underdogs break through into the finals is always exciting, remember the Royal Roaders of BW?
Code S is also starting to get more and more terrans making it increasingly boring to watch.
They also need to get with the program and make sick intros like the OSL/MSL to hype the players more. Slightly longer gaps between leagues would also increase my interest. Maybe 1 tournament over 2-3 months.
i have the same feeling that the BW starleague format is kinda more exciting, having underdogs break through is allways exciting to see! and you allways wonder how long they will last!
as i can see, its so difficult to get into Code S if you're coming from Code A, they should make the formats bigger, like double the ammount of players up because there are so many players who could play in Code A/S which just cant duo to luck/unlucky draws etc
The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
On September 09 2011 00:32 Strydor wrote: Truthfully I do think it's getting a little boring compared to events like MLG, but not because of the quality of the games or the match ups, but the fact that you don't get to see their personalities beforehand.
In MLG they do pre-match interviews where players can showboat, trash talk or just answer plainly, but it helps the viewer identify with the player on some level. There's a complete lack of this in GSL at least until the grand final, so all you do is watch them come to play their game.
Just my two cents.
Ever watch the group selections? They're excellent. And even if you don't want to sit through the whole thing, they show relevant and amusing snippets for each player before the first round matches every season. They also do post-match interviews. I'm not quite sure you've actually watched recent seasons to make this judgement.
Yeah, I have watched the group selections, but it's done all in one sitting which is really not the same as a pre-match interview. And yes, I have watched nearly all of code A and code S so far this and last season. How much of their personality do you see? That small snippet of happiness after winning a match?
Comparatively, MLG Columbus had the MC and Idra rematch-up to name one, Anaheim had the MMA and Boxer student-mentor match. The pre-match interview gave them an opportunity to show just a bit more of themselves and what they were feeling so the crowd could identify with them while they played. A post-match interview doesn't really do much in this aspect.
Furthermore, while the post-match interviews are done, it's the pre-match that can really prove to be more interesting. Post-match how many of them would trash-talk their opponent? Most replies would be I'm happy about this result or although I won today there is still room for improvement.
What I personally would love to see is some pre-match stuff, perhaps a friendly rivalry between the players, some flair that players like MC love to show. I'm not saying the matches haven't been good, but it's the lack of connection from the players that make it hard to watch.
That being said, it's a personal opinion, so it's not the same for everyone.
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: Gomtv can create a 10 dollar entry online KR-server double-elimination open-tournament every season to prevent scrubs from signing up. Next, the top 16 from this tournament are not code S however they get to be seeded into the code s tournament to create a interesting "new blood" element.
What happens is code S will have its NORMAL ro32 action take place, with 16 players advancing to the ro16.
Next, those 16 players will each face off in a bo3 against one of the 16 "new blood" players". this will cause the tournament to in a sense have two "round of 32" 's. in this sense, it will make each gsl code s tournament have a chance where its completely possible for a "new face" to beat mvp in the second round of the tournament and knock him out and make it interesting.
no one would enter code a anymore when the top 16 of this online tournament would give them a code S seat.
they need to just bin code a and operate how the osl did:
- offline qualifiers for anywhere up to 24 spots, reduce this if you want to give some away in MLG exchange etc, but ffs do it in a swiss format rather than the stupid retarded best of three knockouts - those 24 players face off in one on one matches, winner of each match plays someone at random who got knocked out in the previous season's round of 16/quarter final - 12 winners of that join the previous season's semi-finalists, 4 groups of 4 top 2 advance gogogo
or they could ditch Code A for Survivor Tournment and continue with their MSLish format,with much less seeded spots.
and for the love of god please change the name form Global Starcraft League to Gomtv Starcraft League
On September 09 2011 00:32 Strydor wrote: Truthfully I do think it's getting a little boring compared to events like MLG, but not because of the quality of the games or the match ups, but the fact that you don't get to see their personalities beforehand.
In MLG they do pre-match interviews where players can showboat, trash talk or just answer plainly, but it helps the viewer identify with the player on some level. There's a complete lack of this in GSL at least until the grand final, so all you do is watch them come to play their game.
Just my two cents.
Ever watch the group selections? They're excellent. And even if you don't want to sit through the whole thing, they show relevant and amusing snippets for each player before the first round matches every season. They also do post-match interviews. I'm not quite sure you've actually watched recent seasons to make this judgement.
Yeah, I have watched the group selections, but it's done all in one sitting which is really not the same as a pre-match interview. And yes, I have watched nearly all of code A and code S so far this and last season. How much of their personality do you see? That small snippet of happiness after winning a match?
Comparatively, MLG Columbus had the MC and Idra rematch-up to name one, Anaheim had the MMA and Boxer student-mentor match. The pre-match interview gave them an opportunity to show just a bit more of themselves and what they were feeling so the crowd could identify with them while they played. A post-match interview doesn't really do much in this aspect.
Furthermore, while the post-match interviews are done, it's the pre-match that can really prove to be more interesting. Post-match how many of them would trash-talk their opponent? Most replies would be I'm happy about this result or although I won today there is still room for improvement.
What I personally would love to see is some pre-match stuff, perhaps a friendly rivalry between the players, some flair that players like MC love to show. I'm not saying the matches haven't been good, but it's the lack of connection from the players that make it hard to watch.
That being said, it's a personal opinion, so it's not the same for everyone.
Fair enough then. I guess MLG does have more intensity overall, though I don't really know it's completely fair to compare it to the GSL in that respect since, as mentioned on the previous page, they're on completely different schedules.
That said, it's not like GSL's format precludes pre-match interviews. I've never felt a pressing need for them though, as I'm satisfied with the current content.
And now 20 of 32 players in Code S are Terran, and there is only 5 Protoss players in Code S. I don't think even think Tastosis can make Code S interesting for me for GSL October.
At least there is a lot of Protoss in Code A, but how many of them will be eliminated in the first matches? The up and down matches were brutal for the Protoss.
Honestly, I am way more excited for Dreamhack Valencia than GSL October.
why you write such a post now ? from this code s up and down 4 from code A goes up and just 2 stay so its perfect no one want code S with 16 good and 16 crap gamers so the way it is its nice they JUST have to nerf terran so no more tvt only
obvs with 20 terrans code S is terrible boring but its not goms fault is blizzards fault
I think another part of the reason why MLG, to a lot of people, feels superior over GSL is because MLG is a one-weekend-tournament where action is packed and lots of games are played over a short period of time. To me at least, watching MLG is like having something planned for my weekend and spending most of my time watching the games, since it's a tournament weekend. For GSL it's completely different. Once the tournament gets into the later stages you see 2 games a day even though the pace in matter of excitement feels way higher. Being in Europe I can't help myself staying up late for MLG because the final is coming up, I'm excited to see who wins. This excitement, to me, is completely nonexistent in the GSL.
I still like to watch GSL, but then again, I haven't been watching for a very long time yet. I don't mind the high amount of TvT (even though I'd love to see more P).
need more terrans <3 tvt. Anyway alot have switched in the beta in korea since terran was considered overpowered at that point. And since people switching races that way are often more competetiv, that is probably one of the reasons why terran is so big in gsl right now. (they train more ) Also terran is pro friendly (while normal players have their problems with them) Which might become an balancing issue. (though i think blizzard is looking more into the pro level)
So maybe hots will bring some courage to people thinking of raceswitching, though i doubt it.
As for intros and things, some footage would be nice yes, or player stats. So just a bit spicing up. That korea is terran land is not gsls fault . Anyway i like watching gsl. And tvt is always fun.
On September 09 2011 00:44 Scarecrow wrote: They also need to get with the program and make sick intros like the OSL/MSL to hype the players more. Slightly longer gaps between leagues would also increase my interest. Maybe 1 tournament over 2-3 months.
EVER OSL 2007 Intro:
Doing something like that would make GSL 10 times better!
...ok I'm exaggerating, but it would still be really nice.
On September 09 2011 01:32 ShooTouts wrote: Ok Im just about the biggest GSL fan there is and I watch every single game it is NOT losing entertainment value and the casters are better than ever.
the only things that bug me are
too many TvTs
and
I wish it was double elimination right now losing a fluke Bo3 is just too easy
At least Code A should be double elim or have a group stage to prevent players going out in the Ro32 from a single lost Bo3.
Especially for situations like the foreigners playing their matches one day after arriving in Korea (i.e. Thorzain, Naniwa, ...) it would help a lot if players would have a second chance and not drop out immedatly.
I wouldn't even care that much about some games not being broadcasted for time reasons.
On September 09 2011 03:01 diverzee wrote: Still love GSL and watch it often as I can. Only problem is it's on between 11 am - 3 pm - a time where people work or go to uni so I always miss it.
that's better than 5am, which is why i rarely get to watch the gsl
On September 09 2011 00:44 Scarecrow wrote: They also need to get with the program and make sick intros like the OSL/MSL to hype the players more. Slightly longer gaps between leagues would also increase my interest. Maybe 1 tournament over 2-3 months.
For people saying TvT isn't any worse than the other mirrors... they have much more of a tendency to go into long standoff games. At least the other mirrors are often shorter. They all can be interesting sometimes, but any of them on repeat is just plain boring... especially TvT for the aforementioned reason
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
I've followed the first 5 or 6 seasons, but I wont buy a ticket for like two games I'm interested in. Also i can't stand tvt, its the most boring matchup to watch and usually makes up for the majority of the games when the finals come closer.
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
Also i can't stand tvt especially, its the most boring matchup to watch and it usually makes up for the majority of the games when the GSL finals come closer.
last gsl we had no tvt (zvp and zvt) and the finals were zvz
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
Also i can't stand tvt especially, its the most boring matchup to watch and it usually makes up for the majority of the games when the GSL finals come closer.
last gsl we had no tvt (zvp and zvt) and the finals were zvz
zvz.. alright..
why not have separate mirror leagues only, it would be quite nice, since I dont believe in cross-race balance anyways, its quite arbitrary who wins unless there are fair circumstances for the players. I'd certainly buy a pass for a pvp league, its the only MU I'm interested in anyways right now.
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
Also i can't stand tvt especially, its the most boring matchup to watch and it usually makes up for the majority of the games when the GSL finals come closer.
last gsl we had no tvt (zvp and zvt) and the finals were zvz
zvz.. alright..
why not have separate mirror leagues only, it would be quite nice, since I dont believe in cross-race balance anyways, its quite arbitrary who wins unless there are fair circumstances for the players. I'd certainly buy a pass for a pvp league, its the only MU I'm interested in anyways right now.
i do agree that there are balance issues yes. but its not gretechs fault. its blizzards fault.
anyways code a will pretty much be a pvp fest and you had a pvp code a final last month too
GSL may want to consider putting limits on how many people of an individual race are allowed in the tournament at any particular given point in time (arbitrarily no more than half or something). Having just shy of 2/3 of code S be terran kills it for me, personally. While it is a tournament of skill and it would suck to be barred because of your race selection, there is still sufficient competition to get into the tournament that anyone getting in will be skilled enough to provide decent games, and it may encourage some players to switch races.
Just a thought, I'm sure a lot of people would hate it, and for reasons I can well understand.
On September 09 2011 05:09 Whitewing wrote: GSL may want to consider putting limits on how many people of an individual race are allowed in the tournament at any particular given point in time (arbitrarily no more than half or something). Having just shy of 2/3 of code S be terran kills it for me, personally. While it is a tournament of skill and it would suck to be barred because of your race selection, there is still sufficient competition to get into the tournament that anyone getting in will be skilled enough to provide decent games, and it may encourage some players to switch races.
Just a thought, I'm sure a lot of people would hate it, and for reasons I can well understand.
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
I've followed the first 5 or 6 seasons, but I wont buy a ticket for like two games I'm interested in. Also i can't stand tvt, its the most boring matchup to watch and usually makes up for the majority of the games when the finals come closer.
yep, same boat. it's been way too Terran heavy and I personally just think the 3 Terran match-ups are more boring than the 3 non-Terran match-ups. I haven't really bothered staying up unless it was a Zerg-heavy night.
it's not Gom's fault that no matter how Terran plays (1/1/1 all in, turtle, or anything in between) it's just not that exciting to most spectators. I think the other problem is there's a Korean Terran style, and, well, we see it way too much. It's like watching Spurs games all the time. Sure, I love basketball, but I'd rather watch college basketball than the Spurs playing.
On September 09 2011 05:09 Whitewing wrote: GSL may want to consider putting limits on how many people of an individual race are allowed in the tournament at any particular given point in time (arbitrarily no more than half or something). Having just shy of 2/3 of code S be terran kills it for me, personally. While it is a tournament of skill and it would suck to be barred because of your race selection, there is still sufficient competition to get into the tournament that anyone getting in will be skilled enough to provide decent games, and it may encourage some players to switch races.
Just a thought, I'm sure a lot of people would hate it, and for reasons I can well understand.
Very unfair system. Good players might be stuck just because there are many of his race in code S, even if they are better than code S players of all races.
I understand now there are many Ts, but this is not the way to fix it.
The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
And why do you think that is? Because they're cool? Because they're fun to play?
I think the obvious answer is that they have the best chances to win as Terran, and when there's money and your career on the line, you choose what gives you the best advantage.
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
I've followed the first 5 or 6 seasons, but I wont buy a ticket for like two games I'm interested in. Also i can't stand tvt, its the most boring matchup to watch and usually makes up for the majority of the games when the finals come closer.
yep, same boat. it's been way too Terran heavy and I personally just think the 3 Terran match-ups are more boring than the 3 non-Terran match-ups. I haven't really bothered staying up unless it was a Zerg-heavy night.
it's not Gom's fault that no matter how Terran plays (1/1/1 all in, turtle, or anything in between) it's just not that exciting to most spectators. I think the other problem is there's a Korean Terran style, and, well, we see it way too much. It's like watching Spurs games all the time. Sure, I love basketball, but I'd rather watch college basketball than the Spurs playing.
Such a statement. Kind of biased.
I enjoy TvP and TvZ that are not one-sided (yes, we need better Ps and Zs to compete with top Ts, they are not even closer to them in terms of skill).
And talk about other mirror matches, PvP and ZvZ. TvT is by far the most entertaining to watch and sometimes produces epic matches.
Of course, everything that needs to be patched should be done, but still I think Top Ts are way better than Top Ps, for instance. Once thing is to lose to 1-1-1, and a different thing is to die to whatever T throws at you.
MKP (mid tier T) wins JYP and Tester just because the first loses 13 probes to a drop he knew it was coming and the second tries to 3gate blink all in vs a standard 1raxCC.
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
And why do you think that is? Because they're cool? Because they're fun to play?
I think the obvious answer is that they have the best chances to win as Terran, and when there's money and your career on the line, you choose what gives you the best advantage.
We need to see stats, but in my case, it's like very intuitive to pick Earth defenders ^^
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
And why do you think that is? Because they're cool? Because they're fun to play?
I think the obvious answer is that they have the best chances to win as Terran, and when there's money and your career on the line, you choose what gives you the best advantage.
lolwut? they grew up watching Boxer, Nada and Iloveoov win in BW, i'd have picked Terran too.
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
And why do you think that is? Because they're cool? Because they're fun to play?
I think the obvious answer is that they have the best chances to win as Terran, and when there's money and your career on the line, you choose what gives you the best advantage.
We need to see stats, but in my case, it's like very intuitive to pick Earth defenders ^^
that, too. Koreans lean towards Terran because they're the human race. If you look at MMO's in Asia you see the same thing. Asian people prefer to main races that resemble humans rather than the beast-like races in fantasy worlds.
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
I've followed the first 5 or 6 seasons, but I wont buy a ticket for like two games I'm interested in. Also i can't stand tvt, its the most boring matchup to watch and usually makes up for the majority of the games when the finals come closer.
yep, same boat. it's been way too Terran heavy and I personally just think the 3 Terran match-ups are more boring than the 3 non-Terran match-ups. I haven't really bothered staying up unless it was a Zerg-heavy night.
it's not Gom's fault that no matter how Terran plays (1/1/1 all in, turtle, or anything in between) it's just not that exciting to most spectators. I think the other problem is there's a Korean Terran style, and, well, we see it way too much. It's like watching Spurs games all the time. Sure, I love basketball, but I'd rather watch college basketball than the Spurs playing.
Such a statement. Kind of biased.
I enjoy TvP and TvZ that are not one-sided (yes, we need better Ps and Zs to compete with top Ts, they are not even closer to them in terms of skill).
And talk about other mirror matches, PvP and ZvZ. TvT is by far the most entertaining to watch and sometimes produces epic matches.
Of course, everything that needs to be patched should be done, but still I think Top Ts are way better than Top Ps, for instance. Once thing is to lose to 1-1-1, and a different thing is to die to whatever T throws at you.
MKP (mid tier T) wins JYP and Tester just because the first loses 13 probes to a drop he knew it was coming and the second tries to 3gate blink all in vs a standard 1raxCC.
how the hell is a three time finalist a mid tier player ?
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
Also i can't stand tvt especially, its the most boring matchup to watch and it usually makes up for the majority of the games when the GSL finals come closer.
last gsl we had no tvt (zvp and zvt) and the finals were zvz
This is our third tvt final...... But yes code S makes me lose interest after all the protoss get knocked out..
On September 09 2011 05:03 farnham wrote: its hardly gretechs fault that the korean terrans are doing so well..
its not a korea only phenomenon too. usually you see (korean) terrans winning tournaments everywhere.
i believe if they bring back them khaydarian amulets protosses everywhere will be back again.
On September 09 2011 05:01 perestain wrote:
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
Also i can't stand tvt especially, its the most boring matchup to watch and it usually makes up for the majority of the games when the GSL finals come closer.
last gsl we had no tvt (zvp and zvt) and the finals were zvz
This is our third tvt final...... But yes code S makes me lose interest after all the protoss get knocked out..
dont forget that we also had two zvp finals (mc vs. july and nestea vs. inca)
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
I've followed the first 5 or 6 seasons, but I wont buy a ticket for like two games I'm interested in. Also i can't stand tvt, its the most boring matchup to watch and usually makes up for the majority of the games when the finals come closer.
yep, same boat. it's been way too Terran heavy and I personally just think the 3 Terran match-ups are more boring than the 3 non-Terran match-ups. I haven't really bothered staying up unless it was a Zerg-heavy night.
it's not Gom's fault that no matter how Terran plays (1/1/1 all in, turtle, or anything in between) it's just not that exciting to most spectators. I think the other problem is there's a Korean Terran style, and, well, we see it way too much. It's like watching Spurs games all the time. Sure, I love basketball, but I'd rather watch college basketball than the Spurs playing.
Such a statement. Kind of biased.
I enjoy TvP and TvZ that are not one-sided (yes, we need better Ps and Zs to compete with top Ts, they are not even closer to them in terms of skill).
And talk about other mirror matches, PvP and ZvZ. TvT is by far the most entertaining to watch and sometimes produces epic matches.
Of course, everything that needs to be patched should be done, but still I think Top Ts are way better than Top Ps, for instance. Once thing is to lose to 1-1-1, and a different thing is to die to whatever T throws at you.
MKP (mid tier T) wins JYP and Tester just because the first loses 13 probes to a drop he knew it was coming and the second tries to 3gate blink all in vs a standard 1raxCC.
how the hell is a three time finalist a mid tier player ?
Right now, if you consider the likes of MVP, Bomber, Puma, MMA, Ryung, Polt, Top... Too many players above him
i'm another consistent subscriber who will be jumping ship until the game gets adjusted so that there's not so many terrans. this isn't really sulking, and i agree TvT may be a great match up, but there's 5 other match-ups i also love equally as much (well, TvP a bit painful atm). And we're missing many of these. OP or not, I dont want to watch all terran, all the time.
Code A looks potentially great though, if the patch hits before that season I may watch this, to see what people do with the new balances.
The Spurs were awesome at their peak. T Dunc baseline backboard shots, manu cutting and slashing. It's just now that T Dunc's old that they're less exciting (arguably not true with TP).
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
I've followed the first 5 or 6 seasons, but I wont buy a ticket for like two games I'm interested in. Also i can't stand tvt, its the most boring matchup to watch and usually makes up for the majority of the games when the finals come closer.
yep, same boat. it's been way too Terran heavy and I personally just think the 3 Terran match-ups are more boring than the 3 non-Terran match-ups. I haven't really bothered staying up unless it was a Zerg-heavy night.
it's not Gom's fault that no matter how Terran plays (1/1/1 all in, turtle, or anything in between) it's just not that exciting to most spectators. I think the other problem is there's a Korean Terran style, and, well, we see it way too much. It's like watching Spurs games all the time. Sure, I love basketball, but I'd rather watch college basketball than the Spurs playing.
Such a statement. Kind of biased.
I enjoy TvP and TvZ that are not one-sided (yes, we need better Ps and Zs to compete with top Ts, they are not even closer to them in terms of skill).
And talk about other mirror matches, PvP and ZvZ. TvT is by far the most entertaining to watch and sometimes produces epic matches.
Of course, everything that needs to be patched should be done, but still I think Top Ts are way better than Top Ps, for instance. Once thing is to lose to 1-1-1, and a different thing is to die to whatever T throws at you.
MKP (mid tier T) wins JYP and Tester just because the first loses 13 probes to a drop he knew it was coming and the second tries to 3gate blink all in vs a standard 1raxCC.
how the hell is a three time finalist a mid tier player ?
Right now, if you consider the likes of MVP, Bomber, Puma, MMA, Ryung, Polt, Top... Too many players above him
Precisely. MKP was once a top tier player, but that's changed. Then again, his gimmicky style seems to be working again these days, so who knows if he'll bounce back to the top?
I like some of the Terran players, but I prefer watching non-mirror match-ups.
Furthermore, my least favorite match-up to watch is TvT. I appreciate the difficulty of the chess game, but I just can't watch a best of three where each game is forty minutes long and there isn't as much action or opponents playing on a razor's edge as ZvZ or PvP. I've started to just root for whoever wins the first game, in hopes that there will only be two games played.
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
I've followed the first 5 or 6 seasons, but I wont buy a ticket for like two games I'm interested in. Also i can't stand tvt, its the most boring matchup to watch and usually makes up for the majority of the games when the finals come closer.
yep, same boat. it's been way too Terran heavy and I personally just think the 3 Terran match-ups are more boring than the 3 non-Terran match-ups. I haven't really bothered staying up unless it was a Zerg-heavy night.
it's not Gom's fault that no matter how Terran plays (1/1/1 all in, turtle, or anything in between) it's just not that exciting to most spectators. I think the other problem is there's a Korean Terran style, and, well, we see it way too much. It's like watching Spurs games all the time. Sure, I love basketball, but I'd rather watch college basketball than the Spurs playing.
Such a statement. Kind of biased.
I enjoy TvP and TvZ that are not one-sided (yes, we need better Ps and Zs to compete with top Ts, they are not even closer to them in terms of skill).
And talk about other mirror matches, PvP and ZvZ. TvT is by far the most entertaining to watch and sometimes produces epic matches.
Of course, everything that needs to be patched should be done, but still I think Top Ts are way better than Top Ps, for instance. Once thing is to lose to 1-1-1, and a different thing is to die to whatever T throws at you.
MKP (mid tier T) wins JYP and Tester just because the first loses 13 probes to a drop he knew it was coming and the second tries to 3gate blink all in vs a standard 1raxCC.
how the hell is a three time finalist a mid tier player ?
Right now, if you consider the likes of MVP, Bomber, Puma, MMA, Ryung, Polt, Top... Too many players above him
i dont know if those players are above marine king.
mkp was in a slump recently but he made his way to the finals of code a and he also made his way back to code s.
if you look at the records, outside of mvp and optimus, mkp has better results then the players you mentioned
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
Thank you for adding some sense into this thread.
Its the Boxer Effect -- pretty much every Korean Terran cites him as their role model and inspiration to get into E-Sports.
On September 09 2011 00:54 -_- wrote: The reason why I don't watch GSL any more is pretty simple. I only watch matches in which Protoss participates. Because there are not that many Protoss in the GSL, and because when they do play I can predict the result, there's no reason for me to watch anymore.
+1
I've followed the first 5 or 6 seasons, but I wont buy a ticket for like two games I'm interested in. Also i can't stand tvt, its the most boring matchup to watch and usually makes up for the majority of the games when the finals come closer.
yep, same boat. it's been way too Terran heavy and I personally just think the 3 Terran match-ups are more boring than the 3 non-Terran match-ups. I haven't really bothered staying up unless it was a Zerg-heavy night.
it's not Gom's fault that no matter how Terran plays (1/1/1 all in, turtle, or anything in between) it's just not that exciting to most spectators. I think the other problem is there's a Korean Terran style, and, well, we see it way too much. It's like watching Spurs games all the time. Sure, I love basketball, but I'd rather watch college basketball than the Spurs playing.
Such a statement. Kind of biased.
I enjoy TvP and TvZ that are not one-sided (yes, we need better Ps and Zs to compete with top Ts, they are not even closer to them in terms of skill).
And talk about other mirror matches, PvP and ZvZ. TvT is by far the most entertaining to watch and sometimes produces epic matches.
Of course, everything that needs to be patched should be done, but still I think Top Ts are way better than Top Ps, for instance. Once thing is to lose to 1-1-1, and a different thing is to die to whatever T throws at you.
MKP (mid tier T) wins JYP and Tester just because the first loses 13 probes to a drop he knew it was coming and the second tries to 3gate blink all in vs a standard 1raxCC.
how the hell is a three time finalist a mid tier player ?
Right now, if you consider the likes of MVP, Bomber, Puma, MMA, Ryung, Polt, Top... Too many players above him
i dont know if those players are above marine king.
mkp was in a slump recently but he made his way to the finals of code a and he also made his way back to code s.
if you look at the records, outside of mvp and optimus, mkp has better results then the players you mentioned
MVP, Puma, MMA, and Bomber are above MKP... he made up the last 3 He is a top tier player IMO...
and thats all you are gonna get from people... is their opinion unless you look at International ELO in which case he is the 5th best terran.
we have our protoss hopes hongun, sage, puzzle, tassadar and jyp still in the gsl. san is out but he will bounce back again im sure. its certainly a bad stage. but lets not forget gsl march when protoss players stomped people like there is no tommorow.
People just cant appreciate the beauty of TvT :D. While TvT is pure shit to play, it's super fun to watch. Has some of the best dynamics and provide vastly different games depending on strategies (bio v mech v air).
Basically all the terran units are used in TvT, every single one, unlike most other matchups.
Maybe people just dont understand the matchup? I dont know, either way - more TvTs please!
On September 09 2011 05:09 Whitewing wrote: GSL may want to consider putting limits on how many people of an individual race are allowed in the tournament at any particular given point in time (arbitrarily no more than half or something). Having just shy of 2/3 of code S be terran kills it for me, personally. While it is a tournament of skill and it would suck to be barred because of your race selection, there is still sufficient competition to get into the tournament that anyone getting in will be skilled enough to provide decent games, and it may encourage some players to switch races.
Just a thought, I'm sure a lot of people would hate it, and for reasons I can well understand.
And just how would you implement such a drastic change? Just kick some code S terrans out and tell them to wait for the next season? You might want to keep in mind that their livelihood is dependant on participating in GSL, because sponsorship money is scarce and GSL is the only major tournament in Korea.
And encourage players to switch races? Really? Most of these guys have been practising their races for over a year. If a race barrier was implemented and players started switching, it would take them months of practise and a loss of thousands of dollars until they become as competitive with their new race.
I watched all the seasons and almost all the games(including gstl), but lately i start skipping games. Mainly due to mass fall of protoss in code s. It's painly to see a game end by one emp or one bad attack from protoss. I am rethinking if i will buy a ticket next season.
I still do enjoy players like nestea and MVP but i am getting frustrating watching the protoss games. Hopefully some strong protoss will turn the tie but i am not looking forward in games with people like hong-un and genius.
I agree with the TvT statement. But I feel like it also has to do with favorites being inconsistent. It makes it hard to generate a dedicated, loyal fanbase that will never miss their favorite players play.
Code S players should play more games than currently before being eliminated from the tournament for the season.
On September 09 2011 05:41 farnham wrote: we have our protoss hopes hongun, sage, puzzle, tassadar and jyp still in the gsl. san is out but he will bounce back again im sure. its certainly a bad stage. but lets not forget gsl march when protoss players stomped people like there is no tommorow.
well the thread is about GSL's entertainment value, and honestly I don't care much at all about hongun, sage, or tassadar. it's true I haven't been paying as much attention to the recent seasons of GSL as I have before, but I just don't remember these 3 players being very fun to root for/against.
this is ridiculous. GSL which has way more production value and better games... well kind of.. sort of. but yea GSL is THE tournament of SC2, no one can dispute that. comparing MLG and GSL is really impossible too and MLG is nowhere near GSL at the moment. This is just a long and ridiculous way of saying that ur bored of GSL. So what? No one forces you to watch GSL, just don't post a long thread about how GSL is getting boring.... (wait... 20 terrans... fuuuuuuuk) but u get my point.
On September 09 2011 05:41 farnham wrote: we have our protoss hopes hongun, sage, puzzle, tassadar and jyp still in the gsl. san is out but he will bounce back again im sure. its certainly a bad stage. but lets not forget gsl march when protoss players stomped people like there is no tommorow.
well the thread is about GSL's entertainment value, and honestly I don't care much at all about hongun, sage, or tassadar. it's true I haven't been paying as much attention to the recent seasons of GSL as I have before, but I just don't remember these 3 players being very fun to root for/against.
On September 09 2011 05:51 hjkim1304 wrote: this is ridiculous. GSL which has way more production value and better games... well kind of.. sort of. but yea GSL is THE tournament of SC2, no one can dispute that. comparing MLG and GSL is really impossible too and MLG is nowhere near GSL at the moment. This is just a long and ridiculous way of saying that ur bored of GSL. So what? No one forces you to watch GSL, just don't post a long thread about how GSL is getting boring.... (wait... 20 terrans... fuuuuuuuk) but u get my point.
indeed just watch games of slayers boxer owning up all those NA gosus and then watch leenock vs. boxer.
you will see how far ahead code a and code s players are in comparison to anyone else outside of korea
On September 08 2011 06:01 roymarthyup wrote: I know GSL isnt to blame for this. Its hard to create a perfect system. Im just coming up with some ideas.... I think adding more of a "new blood, its anyones game, any dog can have his day" element to the GSL could do it some good.
MLG for example has a open tournament anyone can compete in, and it is possible for someone from the open tournament to win the entire thing. I think that creates a element of mystique for the entire tournament that code S may benefit from trying to copy.
I think you're slightly on the wrong track.
MLG open brackets players very rarely make an impact on championship day (Naniwa excepted). To a lot of people they're just a side-show. In the tournament where the open-bracket did make a difference it was pretty controversial and I don't think it was celebrated at all as an underdog story (talking Puma winning NASL, especially Ret's #1 seed being made essentially worthless).
However, MLG does get a lot of new blood into championship sunday through the LXG with GomTV. Even if it's the Gom invites dominating, it's always a different set of Koreans (roughly). So that brings in fresh blood, which otherwise isn't available with MLG's relatively stagnant pool system (seriously the seeded players are like 80+% the same tournament to tournament, even with the invites people still complain how stagnant the pools are).
On the other hand, MLG's pool play is superior to GSL's pool play. Watching Bo1's is volative and losing half the player base from Bo1s' and on the first day means that a lot of people are going to have a blink-or-you-miss-it experience cheering on their favorites. That's not even getting into how cheesy Bo1's can be.
And I think other people have hit the nail on the head with too much TvT in Code S and the finals curse. Let's be honest, everyone judges a tournament by the grand finish, which means every season kind of turns into a let down even if there are good games leading up to the finals.
On September 09 2011 05:41 farnham wrote: we have our protoss hopes hongun, sage, puzzle, tassadar and jyp still in the gsl. san is out but he will bounce back again im sure. its certainly a bad stage. but lets not forget gsl march when protoss players stomped people like there is no tommorow.
well the thread is about GSL's entertainment value, and honestly I don't care much at all about hongun, sage, or tassadar. it's true I haven't been paying as much attention to the recent seasons of GSL as I have before, but I just don't remember these 3 players being very fun to root for/against.
Puzzle and JYP are memorable though.
well if you dont watch gsl anyways its i dont know why you are posting in this thread
I watch GSL. I used to watch it religiously and never miss a match. in recent seasons i've been paying less attention, meaning I often just go to sleep rather than stay up, and then check the results the following morning and only watch VODs of recommended games. I just don't remember many Hongun, Sage, or Tassadar games being highly recommended to watch, so I don't care much about them.
and that's the POINT of this thread, hence why I am posting in it. " Code S might be losing entertainment value." For me, yes it has, because like I said earlier, I used to never miss a match but recently even Code S has been lackluster to me and I've been skipping matches entirely if the LR polls don't highly recommend games between players I don't care about.
Is that easier for you to understand or would you like me to explain it to you like you're 5 years old?
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
Thank you for adding some sense into this thread.
Its the Boxer Effect -- pretty much every Korean Terran cites him as their role model and inspiration to get into E-Sports.
2/3 is not just terran heavy, that's beyond stastical expectations. First, assuming that everyone chose their race for the playstyle they liked or for other similar reasons, you'd wind up with either approximately equal distribution among races for skill OR you'd wind up with one race with a lot more than the others due to simply having a superior playstyle overall (which might be an argument for terran having more skilled players, because it's a better race. That's also a balance argument, so we'll skip that one for now). Now, that's not necessarily a good assumption, so we'll skew it a little bit to account for other outside influences, like choosing terran because Boxer is your hero. You should still wind up with a far better distribution of the best skilled players among the races than we currently have, unless something else is going on. Nothing other than terran being a better race than the others can mathematically account for the distribution we see in code S right now. This isn't a current metagame thing, things have been swinging in this direction for a long time now, it just took time to get there.
Either there's something everyone is missing going on, or else terran is just plain a superior race. It makes sense that it would be, it's a more complete race. It has more unit variety and better unit synergy, and it has more upgrades and more varied upgrades. Some of its units are just plain superior to the unit alternatives from other races, although that's not indicative in and of itself. The major issue is the plain strength of terran defense at all points in the game with their incredible building utility: you never have to kill your own buildings to get out of your base for example, and you can hide CC (AND USE THEM!) until it's safe to move them to the base you are taking.
I'm not necessarily saying that Terran is overpowered for sure, but it certainly looks like it, if only by the sheer statistical improbability of having 20/32 (that's insane btw, I don't think many people really understand just how big a majority that is statistically) belong to that one race.
For how lopsided the Ghost vs HT battles are looking in every pro level TvP, I am pretty sure Blizzard intended for templar to have the amulet. It was just that terrans were not using ghosts back then because they were doing fine without them. So when tosses started surviving the early mmm onslaught and making it to late game (which you need to get HTs as well as research both storm and KA btw) the terrans were caught with their pants down. They would run in a group of mmm and get stormed and then say that HTs were too strong. People were just starting to implement ghosts when KA was taken out, and things have been going downhill for toss ever since, as the winrates show.
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
Thank you for adding some sense into this thread.
Its the Boxer Effect -- pretty much every Korean Terran cites him as their role model and inspiration to get into E-Sports.
Nothing other than terran being a better race than the others can mathematically account for the distribution we see in code S right now.
I watch MLG to see entertaining games and see new players rise up. I watch GSL to see top level play and learn while having almost all entertainment from Tastosis.
On September 09 2011 05:41 farnham wrote: we have our protoss hopes hongun, sage, puzzle, tassadar and jyp still in the gsl. san is out but he will bounce back again im sure. its certainly a bad stage. but lets not forget gsl march when protoss players stomped people like there is no tommorow.
well the thread is about GSL's entertainment value, and honestly I don't care much at all about hongun, sage, or tassadar. it's true I haven't been paying as much attention to the recent seasons of GSL as I have before, but I just don't remember these 3 players being very fun to root for/against.
Puzzle and JYP are memorable though.
well if you dont watch gsl anyways its i dont know why you are posting in this thread
I watch GSL. I used to watch it religiously and never miss a match. in recent seasons i've been paying less attention, meaning I often just go to sleep rather than stay up, and then check the results the following morning and only watch VODs of recommended games. I just don't remember many Hongun, Sage, or Tassadar games being highly recommended to watch, so I don't care much about them. Is that easier for you to understand or would you like me to explain it to you like you're 5 years old?
sage had amazing games in the gstl and is the ace of nshoseo the protoss team that completely owned up the gstl venus division hongun was ro4 last gsl and has the most consistent results of any protoss player tassadar is the code a runnerup of last season
all players that are very well notable to anybody that follows the scene
i thinkt here are too many games ... i cant pay attention for that long so it all starts to blur.
I think GSL is awesome, but i couldnt possibly watch it all all the time - and i really cant afford to pay for it as the iterations come thick and fast.
On September 09 2011 05:14 Hikari wrote: The terrans in Code S are there because they win their matches. In fact I am surprised that there are still 8 terrans in Code A even though every single decently good terran already secured a Code S spot.
Koreans play Terran more than the other two races. Makes sense that the distribution of races is Terran heavy in any Korean tournament.
Thank you for adding some sense into this thread.
Its the Boxer Effect -- pretty much every Korean Terran cites him as their role model and inspiration to get into E-Sports.
Nothing other than terran being a better race than the others can mathematically account for the distribution we see in code S right now.
False.
Map pools.
You are correct, it is possible that the maps are what are causing it, so that would require map analysis. I'm merely guessing here, but I suspect that the maps, on average, are not hugely terran favored by design in the TvP and TvZ matchups. I'm sure there are a couple of course, but I doubt there are many. If anyone is able to prove me wrong, I'd be glad to see it. Still, unless the maps were hugely terran favored on the whole, that would not account for a 20/32 distribution towards that one race.
It might be a combination of terran having slightly better players on average in GSL, being a slightly (but not hugely better race), and having favored maps that is causing it, but then the maps would have to be significantly terran favored vs. zerg and vs. protoss.
I stopped watching GSL Code A when Moletrap got there to do w/e that is that hes doing (some still say hes a caster?), not saying I like the others either but if somehow we could clone The Casting Archon that'll be great, GSL needs Day[9] and DJwheat as well. It gets more exciting to watch MLG cuz u can relate to the crowd which is huge unlike that tiny GSL studio which sometimes its not even full. The system bracket and stuff is kinda messy also, u get to see not always good games (theres seeded players there that dont deserve a spot in code S anymore, not this time at least) lots of mirror matchups only as well plus seeded players from other tournaments not being fair with going through code B-A. Things need to be fixed thats for sure BUT I do believe GOMTV is doing its best and I love it, what GOM brings us is better than not having anything at all ^^. Post on their Forums, help them get better. The better they get the more entertained we will be.
On September 09 2011 06:32 danbel1005 wrote: I stopped watching GSL Code A when Moletrap got there to do w/e that is that hes doing (some still say hes a caster?), not saying I like the others either but if somehow we could clone The Casting Archon that'll be great, GSL needs Day[9] and DJwheat as well. It gets more exciting to watch MLG cuz u can relate to the crowd which is huge unlike that tiny GSL studio which sometimes its not even full. The system bracket and stuff is kinda messy also, u get to see not always good games (theres seeded players there that dont deserve a spot in code S anymore, not this time at least) lots of mirror matchups only as well plus seeded players from other tournaments not being fair with going through code B-A. Things need to be fixed thats for sure BUT I do believe GOMTV is doing its best and I love it, what GOM brings us is better than not having anything at all ^^. Post on their Forums, help them get better. The better they get the more entertained we will be.
i dont think moletrap is doing a bad job at all
he is constantly improving
i really like the code a caster trio actually
i kinda agree with the gomtv studio situation though
they should do more special events outside of that studio
maybe they can make a deal with koex as scbw scene is fading out
The biggest entertainment killer for me is the TvT. I am not watching this boring shit, so this season has once again no Code A or Code S finals for me. Meh.
This just isn't how its done in Korea though, OSL/MSL have always been fine with no quarrel about whether the format is bad. I think its just outrageously bad luck on GOMs part, with shitty finals and an incredible number or terrans.
On September 09 2011 06:32 danbel1005 wrote: I stopped watching GSL Code A when Moletrap got there to do w/e that is that hes doing (some still say hes a caster?), not saying I like the others either but if somehow we could clone The Casting Archon that'll be great, GSL needs Day[9] and DJwheat as well. It gets more exciting to watch MLG cuz u can relate to the crowd which is huge unlike that tiny GSL studio which sometimes its not even full. The system bracket and stuff is kinda messy also, u get to see not always good games (theres seeded players there that dont deserve a spot in code S anymore, not this time at least) lots of mirror matchups only as well plus seeded players from other tournaments not being fair with going through code B-A. Things need to be fixed thats for sure BUT I do believe GOMTV is doing its best and I love it, what GOM brings us is better than not having anything at all ^^. Post on their Forums, help them get better. The better they get the more entertained we will be.
i dont think moletrap is doing a bad job at all
he is constantly improving
i really like the code a caster trio actually
i kinda agree with the gomtv studio situation though
they should do more special events outside of that studio
maybe they can make a deal with koex as scbw scene is fading out
While this is unfortunately true Kespa would never ever ever go through with this deal.
Has nothing to do with tvt. I love tvt and I still find code S boring atm. They need to do something to get some of the amazing code A and Code B people into Code S. Code S needs new blood baaaadly. Maybe a Code A/S reset and another open GSL?
I don`t see it losing any entertainment value. Especially compared to other tournaments out there its far above and better IMO. The terran thing is not GOM`s fault. Blame the game at it`s highest level. The reason you see a lot of movement of players going down and up Code A is because there is so many damn good koreans they can all beat each other and the game is more volatile compared to BW.
One thing I really hate with GSL is the login and pay to view system. I just want quick easy access to waste some time and lazily watch some vods not pay to watch some games for some games that may suck and are already full of commercials.
Thats one thing I like about Dreamhack tournaments and broodwar tournaments. They are so easilty accessible.
Zerg and Protoss both had periods where they were struggling but that has never happened to terran and they have always been near or at the top. So after a lot of seasons both protoss and zerg get whittled down meanwhile terran still stays at high to average and now we are left with a terran stacked tournament.
I think it still will be entertaining but I also don't find tvt a snore fest like the rest.. code a does seem to be better next season though. Shame tastosis don't cast that.
I generally only watch maybe 5 games out of the gsl (buying pass) theres just to many terrans and even less cast by tastosis. I would be willing to pay double to have tastosis cast all non tvt ^^ give them more pay+more hours = more watching!
theres not many headliners for zerg and toss just average and thats a big problem for viewership.
It certainly is losing entertainment value for a great deal of people- it's not even something that's debatable, as entertainment value is subjective. I mainly watch to try to learn for my personal play, and it's now easy to view code S as the terran tier, and code a as the protoss and zerg tier. Whether it's balance, player skill, or a cultural thing, it is how it is. There are around 8 protoss I regularly find helpful and educational in code a, with only 2 in code s. There are a lot of protoss in code a with an extremely high chance to win the tournament, while I don't think any in code s even have a 20% chance against the terran / zerg behemoths up there.
Whenever a race has trouble and laments it a bit, others respond: "We" adapted, "you" need to innovate. Let's be real here: there is no "we"- us foreign mastersish players who don't make a career off the game watch the best of the best play our race, and copy them. Over the past few months of protoss struggle, I have tuned in night after night with high hopes of seeing something new brought to the table, only to be disappointed again and again. However, there have been a few beacons of hope arising, who, for the first time in awhile, rekindled my excitement to play. Long story short and the point of this paragraph, is I think players like JYP/Sage/Hero are some of our best hopes for innovation and they are in code a.
I'd say if it's losing entertainment value vs MLG it's because GSL is on literally every day of the week (not including weekends) while MLG is a special event that happens once a month.
Only natural, really.
MLG is very exciting because it crams itself into such a short time span. but in the end, I just view the MLG winner either as 'a Korean' or 'a guy who needs to go prove himself in Korea'.
The skewed racial balance is the most painful thing right now. it'll fix itself before too long, hopefully.
aside from my previous argument that gsl gives too much time for the players to prepare for a singular match-up against a specific player:
I think the meta-game has reached a temporary plateau. almost every TvT is marine/tank/medivac/vikings. the first few times pro's starting making BC's i freak out. it was awesome, and exciting. i used to loathe TvZ b/c it was always marine/tank vs muta/ling/bling. then we started seeing roaches, and infestors and neural parasite and broodlords; and it was exciting again. after awhile the PvZ protoss deathball got REALLY boring to watch. then the game changed and infestors came out, and hydra drops, and bling bombs; and it got exciting.
if the meta-game reaches another level i think the game will become exciting again. (obviously i'm ignoring all the nerfs and buffs that brought about the meta-game changes, but if i dig too deep i'll never get out....)
I think it would be good if Code S was the 10 best players of each race, plus the two highest ranked players who are not in the top 10 of their race. Or the 2 left over spots could go to seeded players/wildcards.
We'd be able to see the best that each race has to offer, the best players and we'd probably see more variety throughout the tournament.
On September 09 2011 08:42 GrimReefer wrote: aside from my previous argument that gsl gives too much time for the players to prepare for a singular match-up against a specific player:
I think the meta-game has reached a temporary plateau. almost every TvT is marine/tank/medivac/vikings. the first few times pro's starting making BC's i freak out. it was awesome, and exciting. i used to loathe TvZ b/c it was always marine/tank vs muta/ling/bling. then we started seeing roaches, and infestors and neural parasite and broodlords; and it was exciting again. after awhile the PvZ protoss deathball got REALLY boring to watch. then the game changed and infestors came out, and hydra drops, and bling bombs; and it got exciting.
if the meta-game reaches another level i think the game will become exciting again. (obviously i'm ignoring all the nerfs and buffs that brought about the meta-game changes, but if i dig too deep i'll never get out....)
What TvTs have you been watching? I often don't want to watch TvT but I'd argue it is much more dynamic than you claim here. Blue flame openings and banshees in the mid game are far more common than they used to be. Thors to counter over-investments in vikings. Occasional mass bio. If anything, TvT has experienced a significant shifting plateau over the last few months.
I'll echo the sentiments regarding the frequency with which GSL matches occur and also the fast elimination (compared to MLG pools). I tend to prefer tournaments that are rarer and packed into a smaller time frame.
It might sound silly, but I think lots of viewers have stopped watching GSL. People seem to have this crazy idea that blue flame hellions were first used in MLG and that SlayerS popularized mass blue flame hellions in TvT.
It's baffling that there are some on here who are still sticking to "well the race distribution corroborates with the amount of Korean players playing each race" argument, which is based on nothing. Another one is "current crop of Terrans are just that much more talented". Eh, is that what you conclude after watching 60 TvTs? Or all sorts of all-ins from Terrans?
Here is a solution, why doesn't Blizzard make P and Z so overpowered, that the skewed race distribution does not happen. Players being professional, if above (about the number of players playing each race) is true, it will even really quickly. I'd like to see point in time when actually P is overpowered.
Now, this post wasn't just to whine about the imbalance, but rather a rebuttal to 10s of posts implying above.
Another big factor for me is the emergence of MLG. I don't have to stay awake and ruin my daily schedule to watch good quality matches. I can watch it during a convenient time. There's nothing GSL/GOM can do about this, however, if my favorite players were playing, I'd even keep awake to watch them. So they better tell Blizzard to fix the damn game, otherwise a lot of fans are losing interest in their tourneys.
Not sure if this is posted because I really do not want to read through 40 pages of posts; however, I believe that Airing the Qualifier Rounds for Code A (Code B) would give the GSL a much more MLG Atmosphere. Would also help with the appreciation of how hard Code S is to reach. Thus adding more of a mystique feeling. Just some thoughts.
It has gotten boring and why , because there is barely any foreign soil anymore playing in GSL . It's the same old koreans battling it out day after day. There is so much talent world wide its scary , simply breaking into code A is tough enough. I get pretty excited when i see top foreigners duking it out vs koreans, cause the consensus on everyone's lips is WILL this player take out a korean OMG. Its great Then you get players like Dimaga and White-ra who can beat the best of the best but don't stick it out in korea!
On September 09 2011 07:21 parkin wrote: One thing I really hate with GSL is the login and pay to view system. I just want quick easy access to waste some time and lazily watch some vods not pay to watch some games for some games that may suck and are already full of commercials.
Thats one thing I like about Dreamhack tournaments and broodwar tournaments. They are so easilty accessible.
Another example of why this has become the "Bash GSL" thread. Also your post is moot, are you suggesting they make it free?
TvT is entertaining, you have to put yourself in a terrans shoes. You should honestly be able to enjoy every matchup if you watch and play starcraft enough(Started out with me only watching toss, then i team gamed as zerg and saw some cool ZvT which got me into terran)
TvT is a really good matchup. I can't think of any bad TvTs ive seen this GSL
When only one out of 4 matches is usually entertaining, and for some reason it is always scheduled last, it is very hard to convince yourself to wake up at 5am to watch 3 hours of TvT, only to (at least recently) see the players you're rooting for lose. I say this as an MC, HuK, NaDa, Tester, BoxeR and MKP fan.
The only player I enjoy watching is NesTea at this point, because he always shows me something to do with zerg I've never seen before.
I used to enjoy watching MVP back in the day when he was miles ahead of everyone. But now that most of these top terrans are on the same level, I just can't handle the slow deliberate play of TvT. Especially when I'd rather be counting sheep or watching baneling drops.
Roughly 500 years ago there was a guy called Paracelsus (actually Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim ...) and he said one very important thing which applies to almost every situation in life:
All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous.
This translates into "too much of a good thing is bad" in the case of the GSL and they really should focus their broadcasts more instead of spreading them out over too much time. That is the key advantage of MLG, DH, IEM ... they are done after 3 days, but GOM has to kinda make a "5 days a week throughout the whole year" schedule out of it due to their sole commitment to SC2 and the nature of their "permanently employed people" model of business.
GOM is scraping the "SC2 butter" over too much bread and thats why it gets boring. They really need another game to show in addition to SC2 and then need to add more spice into the GSL by NOT giving the players a week to practice for every opponent.
On September 09 2011 10:50 Sanasante wrote: Not sure if this is posted because I really do not want to read through 40 pages of posts; however, I believe that Airing the Qualifier Rounds for Code A (Code B) would give the GSL a much more MLG Atmosphere. Would also help with the appreciation of how hard Code S is to reach. Thus adding more of a mystique feeling. Just some thoughts.
They do. Not in the GSL Code A / S style, because that would be impossible for an open tournament of that scale, but they try to cast as many good games as possible as well as the finals of the brackets.
On September 09 2011 14:14 Rabiator wrote: Roughly 500 years ago there was a guy called Paracelsus (actually Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim ...) and he said one very important thing which applies to almost every situation in life:
All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous.
This translates into "too much of a good thing is bad" in the case of the GSL and they really should focus their broadcasts more instead of spreading them out over too much time. That is the key advantage of MLG, DH, IEM ... they are done after 3 days, but GOM has to kinda make a "5 days a week throughout the whole year" schedule out of it due to their sole commitment to SC2 and the nature of their "permanently employed people" model of business.
GOM is scraping the "SC2 butter" over too much bread and thats why it gets boring. They really need another game to show in addition to SC2 and then need to add more spice into the GSL by NOT giving the players a week to practice for every opponent.
no.. you dont understand the bw vs. sc2 situation over there at all. if gom chooses to show another game (lets say bw) that would mean doom for the sc2 scene over there
i would love a starfox 64 showmatch or a kingdom under fire showmatch though
On September 09 2011 10:47 Xxavi wrote: It's baffling that there are some on here who are still sticking to "well the race distribution corroborates with the amount of Korean players playing each race" argument, which is based on nothing. Another one is "current crop of Terrans are just that much more talented". Eh, is that what you conclude after watching 60 TvTs? Or all sorts of all-ins from Terrans?
Here is a solution, why doesn't Blizzard make P and Z so overpowered, that the skewed race distribution does not happen. Players being professional, if above (about the number of players playing each race) is true, it will even really quickly. I'd like to see point in time when actually P is overpowered.
Now, this post wasn't just to whine about the imbalance, but rather a rebuttal to 10s of posts implying above.
Another big factor for me is the emergence of MLG. I don't have to stay awake and ruin my daily schedule to watch good quality matches. I can watch it during a convenient time. There's nothing GSL/GOM can do about this, however, if my favorite players were playing, I'd even keep awake to watch them. So they better tell Blizzard to fix the damn game, otherwise a lot of fans are losing interest in their tourneys.
It would be nice for the scientist in all of us if Blizzard would spend a few months buffing the hell out of individual races and publishing the stats with their changes highlighted.
"All right, zerglings now spawn with 1-1 and adrenal glands from the get-go, infestors have 180 hp, mutas have a movement speed of 6 and 2 armor, ultras cost 100/100, roaches are 1.5 supply. How are you guys doing?"
Terran: "Oh man, those changes were pretty tough to adapt to. What else you got?"
On September 09 2011 14:14 Rabiator wrote: Roughly 500 years ago there was a guy called Paracelsus (actually Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim ...) and he said one very important thing which applies to almost every situation in life:
All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous.
This translates into "too much of a good thing is bad" in the case of the GSL and they really should focus their broadcasts more instead of spreading them out over too much time. That is the key advantage of MLG, DH, IEM ... they are done after 3 days, but GOM has to kinda make a "5 days a week throughout the whole year" schedule out of it due to their sole commitment to SC2 and the nature of their "permanently employed people" model of business.
GOM is scraping the "SC2 butter" over too much bread and thats why it gets boring. They really need another game to show in addition to SC2 and then need to add more spice into the GSL by NOT giving the players a week to practice for every opponent.
no.. you dont understand the bw vs. sc2 situation over there at all. if gom chooses to show another game (lets say bw) that would mean doom for the sc2 scene over there
i would love a starfox 64 showmatch or a kingdom under fire showmatch though
Actually GOM could make some kind of deal with Kespa , now that Kespa is in need of a broadcasting station , since MBCgame wil turn in to a music channel and stop broadcasting BW in the near future , and this time the players will have the time to practise and participate in the league . This could draw closer together SC2 and BW progamers and fans alike and maybe grow the SC2 scene also in korea .
On September 09 2011 07:27 IamZieK wrote: I generally only watch maybe 5 games out of the gsl (buying pass) theres just to many terrans and even less cast by tastosis. I would be willing to pay double to have tastosis cast all non tvt ^^ give them more pay+more hours = more watching!
theres not many headliners for zerg and toss just average and thats a big problem for viewership.
I dont think gom decided to bring in code a casters because tastosis were to expensive.
i believe tastosis just had to work way to much. if you look at open season 1 through 3 they had to cast everyday for 5 or more hours. thats way to much for anybodys throat.
To me, alot of the joy i get from watching starcraft is due to the excitement. I'm sure everyone agrees with me on that one.
Whenever there's a guy from my country (which have never happened) competing, I'll root for him. My feelings about the game he's playing, will be amplified. Same thing happens when I watch my favourite players play. Mainly Jinro, ThorZaiN and HuK.
Overall, I get more excited to watch foreigners play. I don't know why that is. The thing people say about "I just wanna watch great games", I can't say I agree. I mean.. sure, I wanna see great games - but I would rather see my favourite player do well in a boring game.
I don't care that much if Leenock plays against Genius, or if TOP plays against Alicia. I don't have a "connection" with those players. And because of that, I'm not really that interested. The games may be great, and I will most likely watch them anyways - but not with the same excitement as if it was one of my favourite foreigners playing.
I think that's a lot of the reason Code S is losing entertainment value, and that's why many people prefer tournaments like MLG. More foreigners = more fun. Rooting for the underdogs. Rooting for people that come from our community. People that we can recognize ourselves in.
I don't have that "connection" with the korean players.
The games are still awesome though. I'm just not that excited to watch them.
Also, all the TvT can get quite tiresome for a protoss to watch.
On September 09 2011 15:12 Ajaco92 wrote: To me, alot of the joy i get from watching starcraft is due to the excitement. I'm sure everyone agrees with me on that one.
Whenever there's a guy from my country (which have never happened) competing, I'll root for him. My feelings about the game he's playing, will be amplified. Same thing happens when I watch my favourite players play. Mainly Jinro, ThorZaiN and HuK.
Overall, I get more excited to watch foreigners play. I don't know why that is. The thing people say about "I just wanna watch great games", I can't say I agree. I mean.. sure, I wanna see great games - but I would rather see my favourite player do well in a boring game.
I don't care that much if Leenock plays against Genius, or if TOP plays against Alicia. I don't have a "connection" with those players. And because of that, I'm not really that interested. The games may be great, and I will most likely watch them anyways - but not with the same excitement as if it was one of my favourite foreigners playing.
I think that's a lot of the reason Code S is losing entertainment value, and that's why many people prefer tournaments like MLG. More foreigners = more fun. Rooting for the underdogs. Rooting for people that come from our community. People that we can recognize ourselves in.
I don't have that "connection" with the korean players.
The games are still awesome though. I'm just not that excited to watch them.
Also, all the TvT can get quite tiresome for a protoss to watch.
For me watching foreigners is very entertaining, but I also really like watching korean players who have inspiring play, e.g. sage in the GSTL. I think it's for both of these types of players that we have fanclubs ^^
On September 09 2011 15:12 Ajaco92 wrote: To me, alot of the joy i get from watching starcraft is due to the excitement. I'm sure everyone agrees with me on that one.
Whenever there's a guy from my country (which have never happened) competing, I'll root for him. My feelings about the game he's playing, will be amplified. Same thing happens when I watch my favourite players play. Mainly Jinro, ThorZaiN and HuK.
Overall, I get more excited to watch foreigners play. I don't know why that is. The thing people say about "I just wanna watch great games", I can't say I agree. I mean.. sure, I wanna see great games - but I would rather see my favourite player do well in a boring game.
I don't care that much if Leenock plays against Genius, or if TOP plays against Alicia. I don't have a "connection" with those players. And because of that, I'm not really that interested. The games may be great, and I will most likely watch them anyways - but not with the same excitement as if it was one of my favourite foreigners playing.
I think that's a lot of the reason Code S is losing entertainment value, and that's why many people prefer tournaments like MLG. More foreigners = more fun. Rooting for the underdogs. Rooting for people that come from our community. People that we can recognize ourselves in.
I don't have that "connection" with the korean players.
The games are still awesome though. I'm just not that excited to watch them.
Also, all the TvT can get quite tiresome for a protoss to watch.
well its not gretechs fault that koreans are just better
gretech is trying to get foreigners but they fail horribly to win the first round of code a
On September 08 2011 06:05 Blazinghand wrote: I think Code S is specifically designed to be exclusive and to require tournament wins or runner-upping to qualify. This seems like a much more "Code A" kind of thing to do, and Code A does have a qualifying tournament anyways. The current ways to get into Code S:
Win Code A
Do well in Code A, do well in up/downs
Win MLG
Code S is supposed to be a tournament only amongst the best of the best, champions fighting champions. I think for this reason gomtv has specifically avoided doing what you suggested.
On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote: I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post
Poster isn't wrong.
GSL basically a vanilla craft. The game is about the dynamic of the three races. When a tournament is one race against itself eternally, it far less entertaining, especially as you see the same builds done over and over again rote.
XvY games are more interesting for their different paths they can take, and the number of those paths. TvT has few viable ones in comparison, so you're basically watching deja vu matches all day.
You guys have to realize, it isn't GOM's fault that there are so many TvTs. They're not really doing anything to help these Terrans. Infact, they're even picking and modifying maps to help the other races (removing close positions, getting rid of maps that a terran can seige your natural from his natural, etc).
It is either A) Korean Terrans are that much better than everyone else or B) Terran is imba atm
Both of those has nothing to do with GOM and there is nothing they can do about it while still keeping things fair.
On September 09 2011 15:12 Ajaco92 wrote: To me, alot of the joy i get from watching starcraft is due to the excitement. I'm sure everyone agrees with me on that one.
Whenever there's a guy from my country (which have never happened) competing, I'll root for him. My feelings about the game he's playing, will be amplified. Same thing happens when I watch my favourite players play. Mainly Jinro, ThorZaiN and HuK.
Overall, I get more excited to watch foreigners play. I don't know why that is. The thing people say about "I just wanna watch great games", I can't say I agree. I mean.. sure, I wanna see great games - but I would rather see my favourite player do well in a boring game.
I don't care that much if Leenock plays against Genius, or if TOP plays against Alicia. I don't have a "connection" with those players. And because of that, I'm not really that interested. The games may be great, and I will most likely watch them anyways - but not with the same excitement as if it was one of my favourite foreigners playing.
I think that's a lot of the reason Code S is losing entertainment value, and that's why many people prefer tournaments like MLG. More foreigners = more fun. Rooting for the underdogs. Rooting for people that come from our community. People that we can recognize ourselves in.
I don't have that "connection" with the korean players.
The games are still awesome though. I'm just not that excited to watch them.
Also, all the TvT can get quite tiresome for a protoss to watch.
well its not gretechs fault that koreans are just better
gretech is trying to get foreigners but they fail horribly to win the first round of code a
It doesnt matter at all if its gretechs fault or not. People choose to watch gsl bcause they enjoy it, not because they want to reward or punish gretech.
If they don't enjoy it anymore, they stop watching, and you have to respect that.
Its not enjoable for me because of the state of protoss and the state of foreigners (to a much lesser degree). It is not exciting to watch people you try to follow get spanked by default everytime by a mass of "incredible" terrans who abuse their race advantage and afterwards engage in long winded tvts to decide a winner. Yes there are some zergs there sometimes, too and yes ther are protoss in code a, but that doesnt make me want to buy a ticket.
You could disagree and say "Protoss is fine, terran players are just soo much better", alright, that'd be your opinion then. But you can't tell people what to enjoy, you either enjoy something or you dont, nothing to discuss there and it ultimately doesnt matter whose fault it is.
On September 09 2011 16:47 LoLAdriankat wrote: At least TvT is the most interesting and stimulating matchup for me to watch.
Thats cool for you. Its a matter of preference though, to some people its the least interesting matchup to watch.
Which would explain the two words "for me".
Still, I do hope a boss Z or P player comes out and does some inspiring shit. GSL race distribution is basically in the same spot as it was back in the open seasons and all it takes is one player to do some innovative stuff and for everyone to copy him. When MC came out, he made everyone think twice about saying Protoss was UP.
On September 08 2011 06:09 ShootingStars wrote: The format is way too unstable... TvT is boring... my favorite players can't last more than 5 consecutive seasons haha
Anyways, 1.4 should hopefully add some hype about the performance of Protoss.
Quick note: I hate to caster bash - but moletrap is not my favorite.... I really hate to say it because I feel like he might somehow read it... but he's just a little too unfunny/awkward. His banter seems a bit forced whereas his counterpart is more genuinely funny and has a sense of humor. It actually has stopped me from watching a few Code A games where as tastosis (or people near their entertainment value) would have had me watching in a heartbeat.
The other guy is great imo... Either moletrap just needs to relax or they need to make a change or something.... The code A guys just don't mesh very well together. It's like it feels like they wouldn't even be friends outside of casting lol.
On September 09 2011 15:12 Ajaco92 wrote: To me, alot of the joy i get from watching starcraft is due to the excitement. I'm sure everyone agrees with me on that one.
Whenever there's a guy from my country (which have never happened) competing, I'll root for him. My feelings about the game he's playing, will be amplified. Same thing happens when I watch my favourite players play. Mainly Jinro, ThorZaiN and HuK.
Overall, I get more excited to watch foreigners play. I don't know why that is. The thing people say about "I just wanna watch great games", I can't say I agree. I mean.. sure, I wanna see great games - but I would rather see my favourite player do well in a boring game.
I don't care that much if Leenock plays against Genius, or if TOP plays against Alicia. I don't have a "connection" with those players. And because of that, I'm not really that interested. The games may be great, and I will most likely watch them anyways - but not with the same excitement as if it was one of my favourite foreigners playing.
I think that's a lot of the reason Code S is losing entertainment value, and that's why many people prefer tournaments like MLG. More foreigners = more fun. Rooting for the underdogs. Rooting for people that come from our community. People that we can recognize ourselves in.
I don't have that "connection" with the korean players.
The games are still awesome though. I'm just not that excited to watch them.
Also, all the TvT can get quite tiresome for a protoss to watch.
well its not gretechs fault that koreans are just better
gretech is trying to get foreigners but they fail horribly to win the first round of code a
It doesnt matter at all if its gretechs fault or not. People choose to watch gsl bcause they enjoy it, not because they want to reward or punish gretech.
If they don't enjoy it anymore, they stop watching, and you have to respect that.
Its not enjoable for me because of the state of protoss and the state of foreigners (to a much lesser degree). It is not exciting to watch people you try to follow get spanked by default everytime by a mass of "incredible" terrans who abuse their race advantage and afterwards engage in long winded tvts to decide a winner. Yes there are some zergs there sometimes, too and yes ther are protoss in code a, but that doesnt make me want to buy a ticket.
You could disagree and say "Protoss is fine, terran players are just soo much better", alright, that'd be your opinion then. But you can't tell people what to enjoy, you either enjoy something or you dont, nothing to discuss there and it ultimately doesnt matter whose fault it is.
You seem very defensive about this. All the guy is saying is that koreans are just alot better than foreigners so even if we invite 100 foreigners to GSL almost 0 will make it. The competition is just too tough. If that detracts from you enjoyment of the GSL you should just stop watching and don't complain, as GOM can't do shit about it - foreign players needs to step it up.
Class balance fluctuates and if this terran domination keeps up i'm pretty sure Blizzard will switch some stuff around to tweak it. It's just that korean terrans are really good and if foreign terrans were on the same level we'd see the exact same thing in every "foreign" tournament. (already been like that a bit in MLG)
My only problem with GomTV is that there are too few matches with GREAT players. I would love to see more matches with neastea and mvp. That's why I would like to see bo3 round robin group stage in code S. More matches with the very best players, more matches with code s players, more matches for a better player to prove himself (and not unfortunately drop down to code A) and more matches for the spectators.
I think they need more caster diversity. Maybe a black man or a woman. Or a Indian or Latino. A real new diverse view on the game. C. James Trotman argues that multiculturalism is valuable because it "uses several disciplines to highlight neglected aspects of our social history, particularly the histories of women and minorities [...and] promotes respect for the dignity of the lives and voices of the forgotten. By closing gaps, by raising consciousness about the past, multiculturalism tries to restore a sense of wholeness in a postmodern era that fragments human life and thought."
On September 09 2011 07:22 makk wrote: Zerg and Protoss both had periods where they were struggling but that has never happened to terran and they have always been near or at the top. So after a lot of seasons both protoss and zerg get whittled down meanwhile terran still stays at high to average and now we are left with a terran stacked tournament.
I think it still will be entertaining but I also don't find tvt a snore fest like the rest.. code a does seem to be better next season though. Shame tastosis don't cast that.
i couldn't agree more! at release we had the dark days of zerg where they were underpowered against both protoss and terran, and now we have protoss who are struggling against both terran and zerg! it's true that terrans had a period where they struggled against protoss (before the amulet was removed), never against zergs
On September 09 2011 15:12 Ajaco92 wrote: To me, alot of the joy i get from watching starcraft is due to the excitement. I'm sure everyone agrees with me on that one.
Whenever there's a guy from my country (which have never happened) competing, I'll root for him. My feelings about the game he's playing, will be amplified. Same thing happens when I watch my favourite players play. Mainly Jinro, ThorZaiN and HuK.
Overall, I get more excited to watch foreigners play. I don't know why that is. The thing people say about "I just wanna watch great games", I can't say I agree. I mean.. sure, I wanna see great games - but I would rather see my favourite player do well in a boring game.
I don't care that much if Leenock plays against Genius, or if TOP plays against Alicia. I don't have a "connection" with those players. And because of that, I'm not really that interested. The games may be great, and I will most likely watch them anyways - but not with the same excitement as if it was one of my favourite foreigners playing.
I think that's a lot of the reason Code S is losing entertainment value, and that's why many people prefer tournaments like MLG. More foreigners = more fun. Rooting for the underdogs. Rooting for people that come from our community. People that we can recognize ourselves in.
I don't have that "connection" with the korean players.
The games are still awesome though. I'm just not that excited to watch them.
Also, all the TvT can get quite tiresome for a protoss to watch.
well its not gretechs fault that koreans are just better
gretech is trying to get foreigners but they fail horribly to win the first round of code a
It doesnt matter at all if its gretechs fault or not. People choose to watch gsl bcause they enjoy it, not because they want to reward or punish gretech.
If they don't enjoy it anymore, they stop watching, and you have to respect that.
Its not enjoable for me because of the state of protoss and the state of foreigners (to a much lesser degree). It is not exciting to watch people you try to follow get spanked by default everytime by a mass of "incredible" terrans who abuse their race advantage and afterwards engage in long winded tvts to decide a winner. Yes there are some zergs there sometimes, too and yes ther are protoss in code a, but that doesnt make me want to buy a ticket.
You could disagree and say "Protoss is fine, terran players are just soo much better", alright, that'd be your opinion then. But you can't tell people what to enjoy, you either enjoy something or you dont, nothing to discuss there and it ultimately doesnt matter whose fault it is.
im not saying that the protoss situation is fine. but that is primarily a problem of the protoss players themselves and secondarily a balance issue that has to be solved by blizzard. you can blame gom that they dont try to get better maps that help with that balance issue maybe. but dont forget that in gsl march people said that protoss was overpowered due to khaydarian amulets (3 out of top 4 were protoss). the balance problem is still being sorted out and next patch will have several protoss buffs
also the foreigner situation is a fault of the foreigners not gretech. they did the best to gt in some foreigners. they suck and loose first round what the hell is gretech supposed to do. give them a freeticket to the finals ?
sure if you dont like gsl dont watch it. but dont complain about things that gretech has no power over at all.
On September 09 2011 17:13 archonOOid wrote: My only problem with GomTV is that there are too few matches with GREAT players. I would love to see more matches with neastea and mvp. That's why I would like to see bo3 round robin group stage in code S. More matches with the very best players, more matches with code s players, more matches for a better player to prove himself (and not unfortunately drop down to code A) and more matches for the spectators.
everyone in code a and code s at this point is a GREAT player
just look how the code s to code a player perform in foreign tournaments like mlg
i do agree that they should make the ro 32 of code s a bit longer. more matches with code s players would be splendid
On September 09 2011 17:14 nukeazerg wrote: I think they need more caster diversity. Maybe a black man or a woman. Or a Indian or Latino. A real new diverse view on the game. C. James Trotman argues that multiculturalism is valuable because it "uses several disciplines to highlight neglected aspects of our social history, particularly the histories of women and minorities [...and] promotes respect for the dignity of the lives and voices of the forgotten. By closing gaps, by raising consciousness about the past, multiculturalism tries to restore a sense of wholeness in a postmodern era that fragments human life and thought."
they had a singaporean women... that didnt really help...jk
no i dont believe getting in casters from other ethnicies will necessarily help..
I read the whole thread and nobody mentioned this. So it isnt gomtv fault if there is so much tvt, i agree for the most part, but putting crossfire into the map pool certainly didnt help right? Apparently the maps in the qualifier where more in the favor of Z and P, that is good.
The preparation time each player has for his match is probably too big. Esp for the finals.
Back to maps. This is one of the things you can balance things around outside of blizzard influence. Tal d'arim altar is a fine map for most match up, but PvP its a god damn 4g fest, ok maybe next patch will help but there could be an other map thats retarded for a certain match up. block it from those. ie Next season, Tal'darom is in map pool, but not if its a pvp. the Maybe it should be only for mirror match for fairness.
Stop whining like little bit**es, if you don't like it, then don't watch it. You don't have to ruin mine and others excitement towards the BEST tournament with such whiny bullshit. Too many Terrans? Well that should be Blizzards fault then, so point your complains towards them? it's not GOM's fault there's almost no protoss contenders. Code S is the BEST 'cause it's the BEST of the BEST and that's why it's the BEST to watch.
Locking the league for a certain amount of players only? No. That would so not help the growth of e-sport. Why would players even start/continue playing this game, if they know that they can't get in to the BEST league? (Would it even be the best league? Probably not) I sure wouldn't see any point in working hard if there was no chance of competing with the best (If I was semi good).
On September 09 2011 17:14 nukeazerg wrote: I think they need more caster diversity. Maybe a black man or a woman. Or a Indian or Latino. A real new diverse view on the game. C. James Trotman argues that multiculturalism is valuable because it "uses several disciplines to highlight neglected aspects of our social history, particularly the histories of women and minorities [...and] promotes respect for the dignity of the lives and voices of the forgotten. By closing gaps, by raising consciousness about the past, multiculturalism tries to restore a sense of wholeness in a postmodern era that fragments human life and thought."
they had a singaporean women... that didnt really help...jk
no i dont believe getting in casters from other ethnicies will necessarily help..
do you know any good black woomen casters ?
I don't know whether sc2 would benefit from cultural reconstruction. Do we really need to acknowledge the viewpoints of the oppressed when casting starcraft? I don't think anyone would really care, and I'd just like to have charismatic and knowledgeable casters.
On September 09 2011 17:50 Kdog3wa wrote: Stop whining like little bit**es, if you don't like it, then don't watch it.
Thats what people are actually doing.
You don't have to ruin mine and others excitement towards the BEST tournament with such whiny bullshit. Too many Terrans? Well that should be Blizzards fault then, so point your complains towards them? it's not GOM's fault there's almost no protoss contenders. Code S is the BEST 'cause it's the BEST of the BEST and that's why it's the BEST to watch.
Stop whining. If you can't stand people discussing stuff, because it ruins your illusion, then you better avoid forums. If it is gom's fault or anyone elses is not even relevant to the discussion. If people dont like what they see they stop watching and talk about it, if you like it or not.
You don't have to ruin mine and others excitement towards the BEST tournament with such whiny bullshit. Too many Terrans? Well that should be Blizzards fault then, so point your complains towards them? it's not GOM's fault there's almost no protoss contenders. Code S is the BEST 'cause it's the BEST of the BEST and that's why it's the BEST to watch.
Stop whining. If you can't stand people discussing stuff, because it ruins your illusion, then you better avoid forums. If it is gom's fault or anyone elses is not even relevant to the discussion. If people dont like what they see they stop watching and talk about it, if you like it or not.
So you stopped watching because TvT is boring to you. Great! Now either contribute to developing the protoss/zerg metagame OR push Blizzard for changes to terran. GOM has no say in either of these so just going on about not paying due to TvT wont change shit and is pure unadultered whine.
The format feels slow and boring, also the ranking system is confusing and hard to follow.
People don't feel all legendary and awesome anymore there, also the play feels scripted and studied, whilst in something like mlg, I kinda feel, you get to see what people are good for.
Would be awesome to narrow it down, have it like a propper tournament not league type xD
On September 09 2011 19:52 ImDrizzt wrote: The format feels slow and boring, also the ranking system is confusing and hard to follow.
People don't feel all legendary and awesome anymore there, also the play feels scripted and studied, whilst in something like mlg, I kinda feel, you get to see what people are good for.
Would be awesome to narrow it down, have it like a propper tournament not league type xD
what ?
are you seriously accusing the players that they scripted the outcomes ?
if that was the case how come koreans own up mlg too ?
Since Code S should be a Hotspot of good players, it is good that it is so diffucult to get in and easy to drop out. For what ur suggested ther always is Code A! And u might as well count MLG in or the IEM or whatever international tournament with a certain prestige.... But honestly i don´t think Code S is boring by any means (my opinion of course). Maybe cause Code S TvT is way more interesting than normal TvT if you know what i mean!
I read the whole thread and nobody mentioned this. So it isnt gomtv fault if there is so much tvt, i agree for the most part, but putting crossfire into the map pool certainly didnt help right? Apparently the maps in the qualifier where more in the favor of Z and P, that is good.
I agree, they should get rid of Crossfire and Bel'Shir Beach and maybe even Dual Sight/Xel'Naga Fortress, those maps have pretty obvious imbalance issues.
are you seriously accusing the players that they scripted the outcomes ?
if that was the case how come koreans own up mlg too ?
The reason their teams don't have any money is because they bribe everyone all the time, duh
On September 09 2011 19:52 ImDrizzt wrote: The format feels slow and boring, also the ranking system is confusing and hard to follow.
People don't feel all legendary and awesome anymore there, also the play feels scripted and studied, whilst in something like mlg, I kinda feel, you get to see what people are good for.
Would be awesome to narrow it down, have it like a propper tournament not league type xD
what ?
are you seriously accusing the players that they scripted the outcomes ?
if that was the case how come koreans own up mlg too ?
Read the word which comes before scripted. You went to the trouble to bold scripted so that shouldn't be to much trouble
On September 09 2011 17:50 Kdog3wa wrote: Stop whining like little bit**es, if you don't like it, then don't watch it.
Thats what people are actually doing.
You don't have to ruin mine and others excitement towards the BEST tournament with such whiny bullshit. Too many Terrans? Well that should be Blizzards fault then, so point your complains towards them? it's not GOM's fault there's almost no protoss contenders. Code S is the BEST 'cause it's the BEST of the BEST and that's why it's the BEST to watch.
Stop whining. If you can't stand people discussing stuff, because it ruins your illusion, then you better avoid forums. If it is gom's fault or anyone elses is not even relevant to the discussion. If people dont like what they see they stop watching and talk about it, if you like it or not.
So you stopped watching because TvT is boring to you. Great! Now either contribute to developing the protoss/zerg metagame OR push Blizzard for changes to terran. GOM has no say in either of these so just going on about not paying due to TvT wont change shit and is pure unadultered whine.
Its not whine, its a logical consequence. Viewers are neither responsible for the economical well-being of GOM nor the metagame/balance situation of an imbalanced game. If watching is not fun for someone, why should he pay for it? Charity for Terran players or what?
There are people in Blizzard and GOM who are in charge of making sure their business plan works out. Having information out on a forum why some people don't like to watch might be informative for them at some point in their decision making process, but other than that there is no connection or even responsibility you can force upon the viewers.
Also there are people who play the game for a living, they are the ones to tell blizzard if something is imba, not casual players and viewers. We can watch the games if we like it or not watch the games and then talk about our feelings towards the game on a forum, and thats about it. Everything else would be pretty preposterous.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
On September 09 2011 17:50 Kdog3wa wrote: Stop whining like little bit**es, if you don't like it, then don't watch it.
Thats what people are actually doing.
You don't have to ruin mine and others excitement towards the BEST tournament with such whiny bullshit. Too many Terrans? Well that should be Blizzards fault then, so point your complains towards them? it's not GOM's fault there's almost no protoss contenders. Code S is the BEST 'cause it's the BEST of the BEST and that's why it's the BEST to watch.
Stop whining. If you can't stand people discussing stuff, because it ruins your illusion, then you better avoid forums. If it is gom's fault or anyone elses is not even relevant to the discussion. If people dont like what they see they stop watching and talk about it, if you like it or not.
So you stopped watching because TvT is boring to you. Great! Now either contribute to developing the protoss/zerg metagame OR push Blizzard for changes to terran. GOM has no say in either of these so just going on about not paying due to TvT wont change shit and is pure unadultered whine.
Its not whine, its a logical consequence. Viewers are neither responsible for the economical well-being of GOM nor the metagame/balance situation of an imbalanced game. If watching is not fun for someone, why should he pay for it? Charity for Terran players or what?
There are people in Blizzard and GOM who are in charge of making sure their business plan works out. Having information out on a forum why some people don't like to watch might be informative for them at some point in their decision making process, but other than that there is no connection or even responsibility you can force upon the viewers.
Also there are people who play the game for a living, they are the ones to tell blizzard if something is imba, not casual players and viewers. We can watch the games if we like it or not watch the games and then talk about our feelings towards the game on a forum, and thats about it. Everything else would be pretty preposterous.
everything you post here evolves around the fact that you dont like TVT
we get it. but there is no way to kick out players that have been performing well just because terrans are op right now
also its not like mlg has not been a terran fest
blizzard should do something yes. but complaints in that regard belong in the balance thread or in a mail to david kim.
On September 09 2011 19:52 ImDrizzt wrote: The format feels slow and boring, also the ranking system is confusing and hard to follow.
People don't feel all legendary and awesome anymore there, also the play feels scripted and studied, whilst in something like mlg, I kinda feel, you get to see what people are good for.
Would be awesome to narrow it down, have it like a propper tournament not league type xD
Then I guess MLG has a ton of *scripting* as well since the Koreans are writing the same story over there.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Actually, in almost all Seasons the GSL had more Terrans then any other race, and Protosses never really dominated (maybe only in the season where MC got his first win).
For me the big problem is the BO1 RO32, some weird things can happen because of that... It REALLY should be a BO3.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Actually, in almost all Seasons the GSL had more Terrans then any other race, and Protosses never really dominated (maybe only in the season where MC got his second win).
For me the big problem is the BO1 RO32, some weird things can happen because of that... It REALLY should be a BO3.
fixed
in that season protoss had 3 out of top 4 (anypro, san and mc)
Well thats hinting that they should have more (qualifier) Code S tournaments which i think they should stream more but i dont think they have enough money to generate these tournaments :O
I swear Zerg and Protoss are the biggest whiner of them all. Where were you when MC was owning faces with his 4gate or when Nestea was killing nerds left and right? If you think there are too many good Terrans, go complain to Blizzard, not GOM. GOM has done a lot of things to please the fans, from given foreigners free spots in code a, to adjusting their game start time to accommodating foreign viewers, to modifying maps and rotating them. GOM is not perfect, I think their code s, rd32 group play is stupid and some maps are clear advantages for certain races. belshir beach is zerg favored.
On September 09 2011 22:19 bucckevin wrote: I swear Zerg and Protoss are the biggest whiner of them all. Where were you when MC was owning faces with his 4gate or when Nestea was killing nerds left and right? If you think there are too many good Terrans, go complain to Blizzard, not GOM. GOM has done a lot of things to please the fans, from given foreigners free spots in code a, to adjusting their game start time to accommodating foreign viewers, to modifying maps and rotating them. GOM is not perfect, I think their code s, rd32 group play is stupid and some maps are clear advantages for certain races. belshir beach is zerg favored.
When a non Terran wins they say its ¨because they are 10000000 times more skilled¨, when a Terran wins its because of the race... really freaking disrespectful for the players. And yeah I agree, if they have a balance complaint they should go and complain to Blizzard.
I think things will even up in the next seasons, this time almost no Terrans qualified for Code A so chances are that we will see more races go up to code S
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
This guy speaks truth. PHD proven.
Protosses were dominating because Terrans did not go heavy mech against Storm ... and then Amulets were nerfed.
The fact is, with the current numbers, Terran has crazy DPS from marines, which are pretty much the cheapest unit with the highest max DPS. As a Terran, you can recover from so many mistakes with a 8 marine drop to kill workers. Even Mutas (as versatile as they are) don't really kill that many *that* fast and especially costing far more resources.
The thing is Terran, by itself, is ridiculously cost effective used in the right way. Of course, Blizzard's trying to fix stuff, but really, Terran really needs some nerf. Something like marines to 5 (+1 light) with (+1/0) upgrades ...
dunno about the new blood thing, three days of up-and-down already over and 4 "new" players go into code S with only 2 "old" players staying in, so I'm okay with that.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
what is 3 out of top 4 of gsl march then ?
back when protoss had khaydarian amulet and archon toilets protoss were dominating
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
what is 3 out of top 4 of gsl march then ?
back when protoss had khaydarian amulet and archon toilets protoss were dominating
There is no point in discussing this. If people dont want to watch anymore, they dont. You can try to prove their reasoning wrong all you want, but this will not make them want to watch again. GSL seems to be not for everybody right now. No one is to blame for that specifically, its just the way things went with the game imho. Maybe it will get more interesting again, or maybe not. We'll see.
We can appreciate that there are 8 Terrans at Top 10.
GSL is not relate with this issue, its not their fault, Terran players are owning other players, its blizzard the one that must do something to avoid this happening.
I can admit that the first and the second and may be also the third one best Sc2 players can be Terran. But its extremely rare, unnatural if u think it, that the rest are also terran.
You can check all ladders, and see, for example NA got another 8 terrans on Top 10, EU, 6, etc.
I remember one old post, that counts the numbers of tournaments won by races, and was like 70% Terran.
Things didn't change at all, most of the biggest tournament that has been played recently has been won by Terrans. In fact so many mirrors at finals.
GSL is just the tip of iceberg, so we cant Blame GSL because its not their fault.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
I enjoy GSL over all other tournaments and i don't "especially like watching terran". It's the best league and if terrans are stong atm it will bleed through all tournaments, not only korean ones. Last GSL final had a ZvZ final btw. You just don't quit with the negative nancy attitude. Why not just take a break if it's that horrible?
Also you jump at people who write their opinions (using "imo"/"in my opinion") but you yourself always type in absolutes. "I you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead". That's some heavy shit to say with no facts and a totally subjective view on the matter. Also "utter dominance" is some major bullshit as we had a ZvZ final last season and there's still lots of zergs and protoss IN code S.
I like watching MLG because it happens rarely. It's a big show, I sacrifice my weekend, buy snacks, have fun rooting for esports.
GSL is all the fucking time. Several times a week, theres code s, code a, up and down, some team games, all stuff I don't even know about. It's all too often. When it was just GSL (the first 4 seasons?) it was entertaining to watch. I skipped everything until about Ro16. Now... just no.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
what is 3 out of top 4 of gsl march then ?
back when protoss had khaydarian amulet and archon toilets protoss were dominating
There is no point in discussing this. If people dont want to watch anymore, they dont. You can try to prove their reasoning wrong all you want, but this will not make them want to watch again. GSL seems to be not for everybody right now. No one is to blame for that specifically, its just the way things went with the game imho. Maybe it will get more interesting again, or maybe not. We'll see.
i dont care if someone watches gsl or not
but if you are going to post in this forum and in this thread it means you care
so just posting in tvt is boring is not helping since gretech cant do jackshit about it.
if you dont care dont post in this thread and let it go
Its not that I dont like watching terrans, its that the number of terrans has turned the tournament into "who has the best XvT?" which is discouraging, because there are so many great players who happen to be poor against terran due to their play style, but we never see them get past ro32.
I also think this is a reason why foreigners have trouble in GSL.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
I enjoy GSL over all other tournaments and i don't "especially like watching terran". It's the best league and if terrans are stong atm it will bleed through all tournaments, not only korean ones. Last GSL final had a ZvZ final btw. You just don't quit with the negative nancy attitude. Why not just take a break if it's that horrible?
Also you jump at people who write their opinions (using "imo"/"in my opinion") but you yourself always type in absolutes. "I you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead". That's some heavy shit to say with no facts and a totally subjective view on the matter. Also "utter dominance" is some major bullshit as we had a ZvZ final last season and there's still lots of zergs and protoss IN code S.
If you actually looked at the Code S bracket for July you would notice that on the top half of the bracket with nestea, there was only one terran (Ensnare lol). And six Terrans on the other side. Many of the good terrans were taken out by other terrans. Nestea got unbelievably lucky in his bracket. Losira did a great job but he got lucky too in meeting Byun (52% in TvZ) who miraculously beat Bomber who has a much better TvZ.
Edit: it's kind of funny how it works out sometimes. A lot of the time, people that advance are those that have good *vT. But imagine if the Terrans that were only good at TvT advanced, then they're going to be paired up with players in other races that are good vT (because everyone needs to be), but they aren't good outside of TvT. Such a heavy Terran dominated tournament leads to weird situations where people of other races can get far.
There is an easy solution to make the GSL exciting again: all players [have to] play RANDOM. Some players switch races in todays "allstars matches" before the GSL finals.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
what is 3 out of top 4 of gsl march then ?
back when protoss had khaydarian amulet and archon toilets protoss were dominating
There is no point in discussing this. If people dont want to watch anymore, they dont. You can try to prove their reasoning wrong all you want, but this will not make them want to watch again. GSL seems to be not for everybody right now. No one is to blame for that specifically, its just the way things went with the game imho. Maybe it will get more interesting again, or maybe not. We'll see.
i dont care if someone watches gsl or not
but if you are going to post in this forum and in this thread it means you care
so just posting in tvt is boring is not helping since gretech cant do jackshit about it.
if you dont care dont post in this thread and let it go
Actually gretech can do more about it then any other group/organization in the world. Their tournament is the biggest, has best players and gives out most money. For them a balanced game is of utmost importance. If Blizzard is not going to listen to them, they are not going to listen to anyone.
EDIT: Also, the stats they can provide to Blizzard mean the most as their players are the best and always play the best and most effective tactics (unlike Ladder).
We can appreciate that there are 8 Terrans at Top 10.
GSL is not relate with this issue, its not their fault, Terran players are owning other players, its blizzard the one that must do something to avoid this happening.
I can admit that the first and the second and may be also the third one best Sc2 players can be Terran. But its extremely rare, unnatural if u think it, that the rest are also terran.
You can check all ladders, and see, for example NA got another 8 terrans on Top 10, EU, 6, etc.
I remember one old post, that counts the numbers of tournaments won by races, and was like 70% Terran.
Things didn't change at all, most of the biggest tournament that has been played recently has been won by Terrans. In fact so many mirrors at finals.
GSL is just the tip of iceberg, so we cant Blame GSL because its not their fault.
They function on extremely different map pools, not to mention that people in Code A/S don't necessarily put in 100% of their effort in ladder ranking at all.
Blizzard maps in general are already known to have naturals that are difficult too defend, alongside very poorly designed rush distances. IMO ladder is the pretty poor indication if you want to look at today's competitive map pool.
On September 10 2011 19:30 labbe wrote: Yeah, I think we can close this thread right about now. Everyone that are watching the Code S finals will know why
but GSL is boring cuz the vocal minority said it is hurr
The only thing I find astonishing is that GSL Terrans are winning despite the maps that seem pretty much designed to help out Zerg and Protoss (size, distance of 3rd from natural, neutral supply depots, easily defendable natural, etc.). Imagine if we were still using season 1 maps (DQ and Steppes!).
On September 10 2011 21:39 Dragar wrote: The only thing I find astonishing is that GSL Terrans are winning despite the maps that seem pretty much designed to help out Zerg and Protoss (size, distance of 3rd from natural, neutral supply depots, easily defendable natural, etc.). Imagine if we were still using season 1 maps (DQ and Steppes!).
I'd say that the maps are merely evening out the field, not helping zerg and toss. Ladder maps are unashamedly slanted towards one side or the other.
On September 10 2011 21:39 Dragar wrote: The only thing I find astonishing is that GSL Terrans are winning despite the maps that seem pretty much designed to help out Zerg and Protoss (size, distance of 3rd from natural, neutral supply depots, easily defendable natural, etc.). Imagine if we were still using season 1 maps (DQ and Steppes!).
I'd say that the maps are merely evening out the field, not helping zerg and toss. Ladder maps are unashamedly slanted towards one side or the other.
I don't think the maps were changed because terran was dominating. In Brood War you had larger maps, so obviously they wanted to experiment with them to see if it provided for more interesting games. If the game turned out imbalanced then I guess they would first check with Blizzard if it could be balanced around the new maps.
We can appreciate that there are 8 Terrans at Top 10.
GSL is not relate with this issue, its not their fault, Terran players are owning other players, its blizzard the one that must do something to avoid this happening.
I can admit that the first and the second and may be also the third one best Sc2 players can be Terran. But its extremely rare, unnatural if u think it, that the rest are also terran.
You can check all ladders, and see, for example NA got another 8 terrans on Top 10, EU, 6, etc.
I remember one old post, that counts the numbers of tournaments won by races, and was like 70% Terran.
Things didn't change at all, most of the biggest tournament that has been played recently has been won by Terrans. In fact so many mirrors at finals.
GSL is just the tip of iceberg, so we cant Blame GSL because its not their fault.
There will be a day in the future, when Code S and top-30 of ladder will consist of only Terrans. And Blizzard will comment on this "Terrans are just more versatile and complete, there is no imbalance".
well I wouldn't count the ladder really. The maps are made for most people to enjoy laddering. And we all know that terrans are either in bronze or master. To make up for that they made the current ladder maps a bit t favored. so not all games would be tvt or no terrans at all. The problem of course is that those things get abused at high level and are free wins for the people. Just my guess on things. I think a map pool change would help, but either the map gets bad for toss or bad for zerg against terran, so its not that easy + they are already doing this. But with up and downs it always takes atleast one season till people can benefit from a map change. So its not that fast. Just have to deal with it if you don't like terrans. There are enough other tournaments having less terrans.
This seems to be an overreaction to there being 3 Terrans in the semi. GSL July was a ZvZ final, there was 1 Terran in the semi. GSL May was a ZvP final with 2 Terrans, a Zerg and Protoss in the semi.
The way this GSL turned out was heavily influenced by MCs decision to put himself and MVP in the same group, and subsequently MVP and Nestea being drawn against each other early in the tournament.
On September 12 2011 23:38 Spitfire wrote: This seems to be an overreaction to there being 3 Terrans in the semi. GSL July was a ZvZ final, there was 1 Terran in the semi. GSL May was a ZvP final with 2 Terrans, a Zerg and Protoss in the semi.
The way this GSL turned out was heavily influenced by MCs decision to put himself and MVP in the same group, and subsequently MVP and Nestea being drawn against each other early in the tournament.
I think it's more of a standard reaction to seeing TWENTY Terrans in Code S next season.
I've been paying for GSL since 1st season but August was the last one I watched.
1. Code A is really boring due to lack of good casters. 2. Watching fist person streams makes you much better player than ones with commentary. 3. I've leaned more form CatZ, IdrA, Ret, Destiny steams in one month then form GSL in one year. 4. Terran players dominate whole sc2 scene so far in Korea and is getting kida boring to see marine and tanks all the time. (Terran is the best designed race) 5. Even Tasteosis look tired in their cast. Lifeless and bored.
I prefer the MLGs just because it's more entertaining to root for players I'm a fan of, even if they aren't one of the top 20 or 30 players in the world. I get more entartainment from watching someone such as iNcontroL play in MLG, regardless of his results, than I do from watching almost all of the current Code S players. It may just be a matter of watching the games to be a fan boy of a player I like, but if it's for my entertainment, why not?
Well, Terran-dominated or not, its still the best far as tournaments go. I thoroughly enjoy MLG and Dreamhack, but no doubt GSL is where the highest-level play is, and where the most interesting metagame changes pop up.
People have pointed out you learn more from streams, I dont really see this as a criticism of GSL. Its hard to beat a player actually explaining his thought processes to you when it comes to learning about the game.
That said, you could argue GSL is your only chance to see the top Korean players, since they dont stream or release many replays, and if you're gonna learn you'd want to learn from the best I imagine.
Don't Terrans > Protosses in Korea in both SC1 and SC2? 5 out of 4 SC2 Bonjwas were / are Terrans and there has never been a Protoss Bonjwa or Golden mouse winner.+ Show Spoiler +
Recently in OSL people were making a big deal out of Jangbi winning.
Protoss is the best in lower levels due to its low requirement on mechanical skills, but it's a non-factor for Korean players with the highest mechanics thus Protosses just fade out.
Just want to say that Starcraft 2 and Broodwar are both imbalanced in the highest competitive play (Korean scene). Protosses never shined.
On September 10 2011 19:30 labbe wrote: Yeah, I think we can close this thread right about now. Everyone that are watching the Code S finals will know why
but GSL is boring cuz the vocal minority said it is hurr
Code s always giving the best high level play
Vocal minority is an idiotic buzz term. People have opinions and share them. If they differ from yours, it's quite easy to say "derp vocal minority". If you want to share an opinion, do so. If you want to stay quiet, don't blame it on others who have an opinion.
I don't like TvT; thus, I didn't purchase a ticket this season (first time). The ways things are going, I'm likely not going to for next season either. I can say with total confidence that GSL is the premiere league in the world but that doesn't mean I want to watch T roll through everyone. Thus, it has lost entertainment value for me.
One thing I have been thinking about that would make all tournament finals and semi finals much more entertanining (IMO) is to set it up where you have at least one of each race.
The basic format would be that the best protoss, zerg, and terran from the tournament would be in the semi-finals and then the best of the rest (of any race) would get that fourth spot. You then can have the mirror match play each other and the other two races play each other for a chance at the final.
This guarantees that the final is not a mirror (which most people would like), and it also reduces some of the impacts of balance issues if there are any in the game at that moment in time.
I'm not sure how the tournament would be set up to equitably allow for a determination of who is the best p, t, and z, but assuming that could be done, then I think this would be a pretty sweet tourney format. Maybe this could help the GSL or other tournaments gain back some of their luster.
as a protoss player i really dont care that much about gsl anymore, sure sometimes there will be good matches but its not worth buying the season pass aynmore for me.
also i feel the lack of tastosis really hit my intrest hard, now they cast like 2 days and its very rarly i can get both tastosis and a good match involving protoss : (
On September 09 2011 15:12 Ajaco92 wrote: To me, alot of the joy i get from watching starcraft is due to the excitement. I'm sure everyone agrees with me on that one.
Whenever there's a guy from my country (which have never happened) competing, I'll root for him. My feelings about the game he's playing, will be amplified. Same thing happens when I watch my favourite players play. Mainly Jinro, ThorZaiN and HuK.
Overall, I get more excited to watch foreigners play. I don't know why that is. The thing people say about "I just wanna watch great games", I can't say I agree. I mean.. sure, I wanna see great games - but I would rather see my favourite player do well in a boring game.
I don't care that much if Leenock plays against Genius, or if TOP plays against Alicia. I don't have a "connection" with those players. And because of that, I'm not really that interested. The games may be great, and I will most likely watch them anyways - but not with the same excitement as if it was one of my favourite foreigners playing.
I think that's a lot of the reason Code S is losing entertainment value, and that's why many people prefer tournaments like MLG. More foreigners = more fun. Rooting for the underdogs. Rooting for people that come from our community. People that we can recognize ourselves in.
I don't have that "connection" with the korean players.
The games are still awesome though. I'm just not that excited to watch them.
Also, all the TvT can get quite tiresome for a protoss to watch.
I wanna watch foreginers for the same reason I like to watch my city's fotball team, cause I got my heart somewhere and I like to cheer for them. there is nothing more silly then peopewho for example just cheers for barcelona cause it's "the best" team.
GSL was famous at first because it was the first..."official" tournament dare I say. It was the first chance at breaking into Korea. However, at the end of the day, it's just a dayjob for most people for all intents and purposes in terms of the SC2 scene. When shit with HUGE prizes and happen very rarely like Dreamhack and MLG, it garners more attention. So it's not that GSL is boring, it's just that other stuff is more exciting.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
what is 3 out of top 4 of gsl march then ?
back when protoss had khaydarian amulet and archon toilets protoss were dominating
You mean that one season out of the, what is it now 8 seasons in GSL's history, where protoss was like 52% winrate? Yeah, what a huge period of utter domination. I can really recall all those GSL games where protoss won with archon toilets. Oh wait, that was like two professional games in all of the tournaments from that time.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
what is 3 out of top 4 of gsl march then ?
back when protoss had khaydarian amulet and archon toilets protoss were dominating
You mean that one season out of the, what is it now 8 seasons in GSL's history, where protoss was like 52% winrate? Yeah, what a huge period of utter domination. I can really recall all those GSL games where protoss won with archon toilets. Oh wait, that was like two professional games in all of the tournaments from that time.
On September 13 2011 04:54 dosxx wrote: 1st post - be gentle
One thing I have been thinking about that would make all tournament finals and semi finals much more entertanining (IMO) is to set it up where you have at least one of each race.
The basic format would be that the best protoss, zerg, and terran from the tournament would be in the semi-finals and then the best of the rest (of any race) would get that fourth spot. You then can have the mirror match play each other and the other two races play each other for a chance at the final.
This guarantees that the final is not a mirror (which most people would like), and it also reduces some of the impacts of balance issues if there are any in the game at that moment in time.
I'm not sure how the tournament would be set up to equitably allow for a determination of who is the best p, t, and z, but assuming that could be done, then I think this would be a pretty sweet tourney format. Maybe this could help the GSL or other tournaments gain back some of their luster.
that pretty much undermines the point of having a fair bracket tournament.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Kewlots wrote: I think this is silly Code S is the best league to watch game play wise, production wise, wise wise
It cant be touched by anything really imo
True, but only if you especially like watching terran. If you do not particularly enjoy this, then the game is pretty much dead, from a viewers perspective, with some few exceptions. So, like it has always been, everyone has to decide for themselves if what is shown is interesting enough to warrant a ticket purchase. I can imagine though that utter dominance of a single race will not be a good thing in the long run, and the fact that gom is not responsible changes nothing in that respect.
wow please stop
sure there are a lot of terrans right now due to imbalance but a few month ago protosses were dominating
its the metagame that is shifting and protoss just seems to have a hard time adapting right now
Stop saying crap like this. Protoss has never gotten anywhere close to dominating at any point in SC2's history.
what is 3 out of top 4 of gsl march then ?
back when protoss had khaydarian amulet and archon toilets protoss were dominating
You mean that one season out of the, what is it now 8 seasons in GSL's history, where protoss was like 52% winrate? Yeah, what a huge period of utter domination. I can really recall all those GSL games where protoss won with archon toilets. Oh wait, that was like two professional games in all of the tournaments from that time.
Chill bro, protoss will have its time
Lol I am chill, it's just funny that people think that protoss was 'dominating' for a period of time when they were just doing decently for one month. There was like a 52% winrate peak opposed to terran which has hit as high as around 58%.
Just my 2 cents, I find myself enjoying and watching GSL a lot more than MLG / other lan tournaments. I do miss tastosis on a regular basis though and frequently mute GSL while watching it but I find MLG just has too much buildup in the format, too long of an open bracket with not enough championship spots and far too long of pool play that only results in seeding. (They might have changed that not sure, I didn't watch the recent last MLG.) I also really struggle with MLG streams to find the matches I want to watch and with a lot of breaks between games I just don't find myself watching it much.
When I watch MLG, its over the weekend at a time I can watch it live, it moves quickly, great streaming quality, and has a show that's directed towards my culture and language.
When watching GSL, if I watch any of the pregame show, I don't know whats going on (can't speak or read korean), and I can't be up to watch it live as its too late.
So for MLG, I can get together with my friends and throw it up on the big screen (being high quality here makes a HUGE difference) and just let it run live, talk and chill with my friends and reminisce about the matches. We have tons of fun and make a day out of it.
For GSL, I skip through all the pregame stuff and just watch the matches. MLG feels like an event, GSL feels like browsing youtube. Not sure what you can do about this though as GSL is korean.
EPT
. Also free VoDs! I don't get to watch as much GSL as I would like to. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4Cm0f.png)
![[image loading]](http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4674/topkorea.jpg)
