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On September 08 2011 12:53 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 06:05 Blazinghand wrote:I think Code S is specifically designed to be exclusive and to require tournament wins or runner-upping to qualify. This seems like a much more "Code A" kind of thing to do, and Code A does have a qualifying tournament anyways. The current ways to get into Code S: - Win Code A
- Do well in Code A, do well in up/downs
- Win MLG
Code S is supposed to be a tournament only amongst the best of the best, champions fighting champions. I think for this reason gomtv has specifically avoided doing what you suggested. The thing is, compared to the OSL and MSL, it's really fucking impossible to get into Code S. It's WAY TOO protective of its members (only the bottom 8 out of 32 drop out? Seriously?) And you wonder why there's no new blood? Wonder why there's none of these stars that are brutalizing the GSTL for their teams like DRG and others? The Code B "monsters" that artosis often talks about? It's because there aren't enough new spots opening up in the tournaments. 8 new spots open up for Code S each season, and 16 for Code A. The OSL is run a lot more like Code A (but with group stages that don't suck rather than more luck-based elimination brackets) except exchange "Code B to qualify" with "have a pro-gamer license to qualify" The korean scene needs to let new blood into their tournaments more. The MSL and OSL both have 50% new qualifiers each season. It's a system that works. Code S gets 0 - they only get people we just saw win or do well in Code A. Code A gets all the new blood, and we get some really fucking amazing matches in it. This shouldn't be of any surprise to anyone. Then you look at the prize money for Code S - you get paid a similar amount for dropping out 0-2 in code S as you do for winning Code A. Also ridiculous. Eliminate the current Code A/S system and have a single tournament. Don't seed so damn many players (16 is good, though.) Have more group stages and less elimination stages, to reduce the number of elimination matches happening early in the tournament that should be in the finals. If MVP and Nestea meet in a RO16 group stage, they'll likely both get through, and 2 lesser players are defeated, while MVP and Nestea can't face each other again until the finals. More group stages = more likely to have awesome finals because you split up strong players onto opposite sides of the brackets.
You realize that a pretty huge percentage of progamers never made it into OSL/MSL in their entire careers right? - hell, pretty sure most of the people playing SC2 now from BW proteams never qualified for a starleague. Getting to Code S seems alot easier then getting into an OSL/MSL..... there were plenty of "practice monsters"(similar to "code b monsters") in broodwar that never played starleague games on TV.....
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On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want? I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened. Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
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On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want? I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened. Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense.
So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
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I think most of these complaints will disappear WHEN Terrans aren't dominating as much as they are right now (wait for 1.4).
GSL is still awesome and getting awesomer every day.
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how bad dose it feel when you realize that there will never be a better GSL then fruitdealers run in GSL1?
JK
but ya the TvT's are driving me nuts. i have stopped watching the GSL's because of this. GSTL will always be much funner to watch because of the variety
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On September 08 2011 13:02 Modernist wrote:
I think most of these complaints will disappear WHEN Terrans aren't dominating as much as they are right now (wait for 1.4).
GSL is still awesome and getting awesomer every day.
Nope ... thats a myth caused by people who dont like Terran. There are simply more Terran players than there are non-Terrans and the distribution of races in the GSL represents that. Terrans are not "imba/OP" like you are suggesting and they arent dominating the GSL either. Just look at who won and you see that there is no race winning significantly more than the other.
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i can't wait for people to say that the GSL is boring because every winner is a player from IM.
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I still find it entertaining. I guess I can just takes things for what they are right now knowing that they will get better.
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On September 08 2011 13:07 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 13:02 Modernist wrote:
I think most of these complaints will disappear WHEN Terrans aren't dominating as much as they are right now (wait for 1.4).
GSL is still awesome and getting awesomer every day. Nope ... thats a myth caused by people who dont like Terran. There are simply more Terran players than there are non-Terrans and the distribution of races in the GSL represents that. Terrans are not "imba/OP" like you are suggesting and they arent dominating the GSL either. Just look at who won and you see that there is no race winning significantly more than the other.
Well, there's 2 races winning significantly more then one of them 
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want? I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened. Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense. So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2? Bro he ain't hating on SC2. He's just stating the fact (fact = truth) that engagements last a few seconds and the game is over. It is indeed nonsense at times. But that said, SCII is evolving, there are lots more minor engagements happening all over the map. I'd like to see Protoss use more storm drop - how come no one has done it consistently??? SC:BW pros are probably like 'wtf these kids up to?'. At least we are seeing gosu zergs like SlayerSCoca doing baneling drops on mineral lines. total baller move
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On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want? I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened. Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense. but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either
I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post.
On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want? I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened. Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense. So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2?
Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
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TvT used to be the best mirror match to watch, but since the upcoming of hellion stuff it's hecome completely unwatchable for me.
The concept is still working, but i've always been a friend of GSL1, GSL2 or TSL3 formats
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As somebody who has watched and loved every GSL cast since the beginning, I can say that the current 'lack of excitement' has to do with the casters.
Tastosis is still great, their style has become more refined since the beginning, and I love it. These two are awesome.
But for the rest of the casters, the same does not stand. Gretech decided to bring back two casters who didn't get the best reception from the community. Watching a DoA/Wolf or DoA/Moletrap or a Moletrap/Wolf cast really begins to grate (see Up&Down B). They aren't funny or interesting in the same way that Tastosis is. Their style hasn't gotten better, if anything they have all gotten more silly and less interesting to listen to.
I hope that the casters can realize their impact on their product and really start to wrangle themselves in so that the viewers can enjoy themselves more. Not to say I don't love watching GSL, but I wish Tastosis (or Tastosis calibur casters) could do each cast.
Artosis Interview at E-Stars 2011 about Casters
This was posted in another thread, but it is highly relevant.
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Well, other than the obvious issues with time zones, it just drags on for far too many days. Code A should not last as long as it does, and I could see Code S being compacted so that it takes only 60% as long to complete. I do understand that there is a limit to how much the casters can cast in a single day without going hoarse.
Also, as other people have pointed out, it's just been going on for a very, very long time. The quality of the games have improved, and the strategies are always changing, but over time it just loses its luster.
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I still find GSL as entertaining as ever. People are always complaining about which ever race seems to be successful at the moment. Even if it is TvT there is still very high level play and that should be the most exciting part. MLG can be exciting but what percentage of games do we get to see?
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On September 08 2011 13:09 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want? I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened. Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense. So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2? Bro he ain't hating on SC2. He's just stating the fact (fact = truth) that engagements last a few seconds and the game is over. It is indeed nonsense at times. But that said, SCII is evolving, there are lots more minor engagements happening all over the map. I'd like to see Protoss use more storm drop - how come no one has done it consistently??? SC:BW pros are probably like 'wtf these kids up to?'. At least we are seeing gosu zergs like SlayerSCoca doing baneling drops on mineral lines. total baller move
Key point: SC2 is one year old. "The last engagements last a few seconds and the game is over", "200/200 supply then losing the next minute". It depends on so many variables and the player can either make the right or wrong decisions. You make it sound so simple and boring.
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I think something needs to change in GSL to shake it up a bit, maybe your suggestion or maybe something smaller scale but it's good people are talking about and thinking about alternatives/deviations to what we currently see.
I find MLG games to be more interesting as well, regardless of external factors (commentators etc) the players play more exciting styles and just seem to be more fun to watch. I find this strange considering the amount of non Koreans means it has an overall lower skill ceiling. That said I find the Korean players play more entertaining at MLG than during the GSL, I can't really understand/define it any better than that though.
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didn't read all 24 pages, but... comparing gsl with mlg? 4 weekends full of all our casting heros and top players we all know and love versus nearly DAILY games, casting archon and "uh oh its not in my timezone and i have to pay for HD"?
yeah, you can stick to watching MLG and no GSL, but remind me please, when is next MLG? how many hours of stream does MLG provide per year and how many hours does GSL deliver?
it is like comparing a free magazine that is published once a month and a daily newspaper that comes from a foreign land.
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On September 08 2011 13:10 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:59 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want? I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened. Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense. but im sure ggplay and iris both practiced a lot too >_> and i don tthink they were aiming to make mistakes either I have nothing against practicing or making less mistake. my point is that sc2 lacks something which i tried to explain in my post. Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 13:01 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On September 08 2011 12:58 bokeevboke wrote:On September 08 2011 12:37 kKagari wrote:On September 08 2011 12:34 bokeevboke wrote:
I don't watch GSL since april. The time is very convenient for me, but somehow I got bored. I think its the game itself. And have nothing to do with too many terrans.
SC2 feels dull, plain and boring. It all became, who practices more, who makes less mistake, whether cheese/allin works or not, and most importantly who is luckier. lol what? i would've suggested the best sport for you to watch be competitive dice rolling since you dont need to practice, wont make mistakes and theres nothing all in~ish about it, but apparently you hate luck too.... what do you want? I hate to bring bw here, but I don't have a better way to explain it. I think the best example would be GGPlay vs Iris starleague final. The game was epic! back and forth, a lot of multitasking that even korean casters couldn't keep up, fierce battles in multiple locations, i was literally sitting in the edge although i was watching vod and already knew what happened. Sorry to tell you but none of the above happen in SC2. And I can't event bring up any scenario thats happening in SC2. Everything dies to fast in a blink of eye. one minute you have 200/200 next minute you lost the game. Complete nonsense. So there's a lot of hate for SC2 players bashing on SCBW, but how come SCBW players can say ignorant things about SC2? Please leave scbw alone and focus on my point. That was just an example.
give me a fucking break. there is obviously SCBW fanboyism in your post, how can I ignore it? SC2 is one year old. Being a fan of SCBW is great and all, but it doesn't give you automatic clairvoyance in SC2. You make it sound like this will all SC2 will ever be, despite of its young age.
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On September 08 2011 12:59 snafoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 12:53 sylverfyre wrote:On September 08 2011 06:05 Blazinghand wrote:I think Code S is specifically designed to be exclusive and to require tournament wins or runner-upping to qualify. This seems like a much more "Code A" kind of thing to do, and Code A does have a qualifying tournament anyways. The current ways to get into Code S: - Win Code A
- Do well in Code A, do well in up/downs
- Win MLG
Code S is supposed to be a tournament only amongst the best of the best, champions fighting champions. I think for this reason gomtv has specifically avoided doing what you suggested. The thing is, compared to the OSL and MSL, it's really fucking impossible to get into Code S. It's WAY TOO protective of its members (only the bottom 8 out of 32 drop out? Seriously?) And you wonder why there's no new blood? Wonder why there's none of these stars that are brutalizing the GSTL for their teams like DRG and others? The Code B "monsters" that artosis often talks about? It's because there aren't enough new spots opening up in the tournaments. 8 new spots open up for Code S each season, and 16 for Code A. The OSL is run a lot more like Code A (but with group stages that don't suck rather than more luck-based elimination brackets) except exchange "Code B to qualify" with "have a pro-gamer license to qualify" The korean scene needs to let new blood into their tournaments more. The MSL and OSL both have 50% new qualifiers each season. It's a system that works. Code S gets 0 - they only get people we just saw win or do well in Code A. Code A gets all the new blood, and we get some really fucking amazing matches in it. This shouldn't be of any surprise to anyone. Then you look at the prize money for Code S - you get paid a similar amount for dropping out 0-2 in code S as you do for winning Code A. Also ridiculous. Eliminate the current Code A/S system and have a single tournament. Don't seed so damn many players (16 is good, though.) Have more group stages and less elimination stages, to reduce the number of elimination matches happening early in the tournament that should be in the finals. If MVP and Nestea meet in a RO16 group stage, they'll likely both get through, and 2 lesser players are defeated, while MVP and Nestea can't face each other again until the finals. More group stages = more likely to have awesome finals because you split up strong players onto opposite sides of the brackets. You realize that a pretty huge percentage of progamers never made it into OSL/MSL in their entire careers right? - hell, pretty sure most of the people playing SC2 now from BW proteams never qualified for a starleague. Getting to Code S seems alot easier then getting into an OSL/MSL..... there were plenty of "practice monsters"(similar to "code b monsters") in broodwar that never played starleague games on TV.....
Yeah, I'm aware. My point isn't about level of skill required, it's about how difficult it is to drop out of Code S once you make it, rather than how difficult it is to get into it in the first place.
Also, I might accuse myself of BW fanboyism if I read my own post, but I'm really not. I simply think the tournament format of the OSL is superior. (The MSL format is... well... somewhat weird. It's got its own charm.) Doesn't stop me from watching and enjoying many SC2 tournaments, but I posit this as a thing that the GSL could learn from to increase the competitivity (totally a word) of their "top SC2 players in the world" tournament.
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EPT
