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On September 07 2011 12:26 Genie1 wrote:
This fits for SC2 but go plays games like DOTA or LOL and get back to me if you continue to think its the mindset or others believe me when it goes outside of your own mindset you can't blame yourself unless you screw up but if your teammate is bad then that's how it is.
I have played ALOT of Heroes of Newerth and Dota, it definitely goes both ways. In Hon and Dota every game is filled bming some guy on the team that is feeding and doing retarded things and feeding. At the same time their is someone who is doing well but not contributing to a win at all, An Int hero nuker stealing all the carries kills, he thinks hes a fucking boss cause he has a positive kdr, but when you look into the team metagame hes just as bad of a player. Also when all this is going on, people don't really analyze their own mistakes, not lo0oking at the minimap and getting ganked. The mindset stuff definitely applies, it just is more complex because their are 5 players vs 5 players.
Sometimes your teammates suck ass and you straight up lose. But don't let that hide your own mistakes from yourself or make you feel you can't improve. Don't tell me every game you lose you played perfectly.
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China has more and better players than Sweden.
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On September 07 2011 12:29 RedDragon571 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 12:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 07 2011 12:16 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 12:13 lizzard_warish wrote:
Nothings more hysterical than a post claiming Americans do worse than fucking Europeans because they dont have a winners mindset. You know, America, the country where everything is engendered towards working hard and succeeding and it being your own fault if you fail, compared to sweden where...work is what? That annoying thing you do for a handful of hours every now and again.
Dear god. Seems a bit biased, You ever been to Sweden or Korea? It also has nothing to do with how much you work, but your attitude towards work. I live in america and believe me a love of hard work isn't especially a virtue, especially in the gaming demo-graph (young middle-class guys). where do you live? Canada, near the border [as everyone is basically]. And no shit teenagers arent the most motivated [though im sure thats replicated in europe as well]. Either way any casual glance at the amount americans [and to a lesser extent canadians] work relative to their European counterparts, or looking at stats on what people consider important etc etc, it comes back overwhelming: North Americans work far far far far more than Europeans [western europeans that is] and put a far far far higher importance on work, the necessity of succeeding on your own, and money. The result? North Americans are far more fucking ambitious. We dont have like four month vacations like sweden, surprise, kinda have to be. Most counter intuitive thing I ever heard, Europeans being work orientated. I think your misunderstanding me, I live in the midwest, and the focus for most americans around here, Is not on the work but the money. The whole american mindset is make as much money as you can as fast as you can so you DON'T have to work. Yes work is of a high importance because the real emphasis is on money and not work. It is extremely counter intuitive and actually your exactly right about american importance of work. Americans are concerned with self image and money, not much value is placed upon the actual act of doing work. Maybe its different where you live and of course we are generalizing an entire country. The result is still the same. If [as you said a generalization] an American goes into something, they are doing it in order to get money, and will work hard and be cut throat in order to get there. Obviously theres always that trade off of enjoyment and the like, but needless to say Idra works hard to get cash and anybody in America who looks at starcraft as something potentially beneficial to them monetarily will work extremely hard. Europe does not have that mentality, so accusing America of having a lazy mentality and Europe of having the opposite is simply wrong, and demonstrably wrong. And everyone here knows its wrong.
edit: For that matter, outside of maybe hardcore Calvinists, your going to be hard pressed to find anyone on the planet who works hard just for its own sake.
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On September 07 2011 12:17 gamecrazy wrote:
I really disliked the description of people using a dichotomy of fixed mindset and growth mindset. It really felt very narrow, and to me, it didn't really explain anything useful.
I do like the analysis on the drop of active players, and it doesn't surprise me that the most active players were lost between bronze and gold leagues. We saw that happen with other games, most notably with Iccup, and it's bound to happen to SC2 as well.
Like ive said many times, the dichotomy is so you can better understand the concepts, the reality is more complex as you can be both fixed and growth in different apsects.
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Blatant generalizing and unbacked facts aside. I think we should all focus in the positive mindset this thread is trying to encourage.
So lets not make this into a America vs the world or SC2 vs other games.
I think this message brings a lot of uncomfortable truths about the so called ladder fear and yeah even it made me question my mindset when it comes to that. We all like to put a lot of the blame on talent or circumstances(don´t get me wrong, I do think they are a huge factor but not something that can´t be overcome in many cases) but the truth is that we should stop looking for ¨outside¨ sources in our defeats and failures and start focusing on what can we do to improve on that, which btw is a kickass concept.
Edit: And duh, of course this applies to everything you do. Games, work, love and everything. Cheers
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On September 07 2011 12:36 lizzard_warish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 12:29 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 12:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 07 2011 12:16 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 12:13 lizzard_warish wrote:
Nothings more hysterical than a post claiming Americans do worse than fucking Europeans because they dont have a winners mindset. You know, America, the country where everything is engendered towards working hard and succeeding and it being your own fault if you fail, compared to sweden where...work is what? That annoying thing you do for a handful of hours every now and again.
Dear god. Seems a bit biased, You ever been to Sweden or Korea? It also has nothing to do with how much you work, but your attitude towards work. I live in america and believe me a love of hard work isn't especially a virtue, especially in the gaming demo-graph (young middle-class guys). where do you live? Canada, near the border [as everyone is basically]. And no shit teenagers arent the most motivated [though im sure thats replicated in europe as well]. Either way any casual glance at the amount americans [and to a lesser extent canadians] work relative to their European counterparts, or looking at stats on what people consider important etc etc, it comes back overwhelming: North Americans work far far far far more than Europeans [western europeans that is] and put a far far far higher importance on work, the necessity of succeeding on your own, and money. The result? North Americans are far more fucking ambitious. We dont have like four month vacations like sweden, surprise, kinda have to be. Most counter intuitive thing I ever heard, Europeans being work orientated. I think your misunderstanding me, I live in the midwest, and the focus for most americans around here, Is not on the work but the money. The whole american mindset is make as much money as you can as fast as you can so you DON'T have to work. Yes work is of a high importance because the real emphasis is on money and not work. It is extremely counter intuitive and actually your exactly right about american importance of work. Americans are concerned with self image and money, not much value is placed upon the actual act of doing work. Maybe its different where you live and of course we are generalizing an entire country. The result is still the same. If [as you said a generalization] an American goes into something, they are doing it in order to get money, and will work hard and be cut throat in order to get there. Obviously theres always that trade off of enjoyment and the like, but needless to say Idra works hard to get cash and anybody in America who looks at starcraft as something potentially beneficial to them monetarily will work extremely hard. Europe does not have that mentality, so accusing America of having a lazy mentality and Europe of having the opposite is simply wrong, and demonstrably wrong. And everyone here knows its wrong. edit: For that matter, outside of maybe hardcore Calvinists, your going to be hard pressed to find anyone on the planet who works hard just for its own sake.
There's plenty of people out there that work doing something they love. They're not common but they're out there. There may be plenty of people that hate their job, but I think there is alot of people who love starcraft and do it for the sake of enjoyment, a Mr. Sean Plott [Day9] comes to mind.
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On September 07 2011 12:35 rift wrote:
China has more and better players than Sweden.
Wouldn't doubt it :D
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On September 07 2011 12:34 Relickey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 12:04 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 11:54 Relickey wrote:
It's a pretty big leap to say that because less games were played from season 1 to 2 to 3 because of ladder fear and not because of a combination of things like quitting the game, losing interest, etc. Also I feel like this write up is just a really big pitch to sell that self-help book. Were you paid for this viral advertisement? Yeah their paying me 10 dollar per response by the author's company who is rich as bawlz. I've showed them how advertising on TL will lead to direct profit will benefit the greedy mistress Carol Dweck herself ( Yes, She builds 4 orbital commands in her base, before barracks, while teaching her psych class). Did I mention I am also a free mason sent by the illuminati to sell this book, It is necessary to change the mindset of the human race in order so that they will be more resistant? in the face of an imminent alien invasion after the awakening of the ancient vampires under stonehenge and the great pyramids. They will feast upon the earth O.o? + Show Spoiler +ROFL, no, I was not paid to sell anything. Its a book that helped me personally and I thought it had alot of application to sc2.
btw. "You can see that Starcraft 2 has lost well over a million active players due to ladder fear, lack of continuing interest, League of legends, other games and other misc reason:"
I said that? You might want to put a TL:DR in your post, or something or read more carefully? I feel like this is a pretty aggresive response to mine. I meant no harm, but I wasn't born yesterday. I've also walked past a plethora of cellphone kiosks at malls, and one of my hobbies is watching infomercials, I know a sales pitche when I see one. I guess viral advertisement is the new thing, huh? Never would have thought it would've happened upon TL.
lol, im not sure if you saw the spoiler or not. But yeah, no im not doing this for money. Sorry for trolling you, gave me a good laugh.
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On September 07 2011 12:39 RedDragon571 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 12:36 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 07 2011 12:29 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 12:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 07 2011 12:16 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 12:13 lizzard_warish wrote:
Nothings more hysterical than a post claiming Americans do worse than fucking Europeans because they dont have a winners mindset. You know, America, the country where everything is engendered towards working hard and succeeding and it being your own fault if you fail, compared to sweden where...work is what? That annoying thing you do for a handful of hours every now and again.
Dear god. Seems a bit biased, You ever been to Sweden or Korea? It also has nothing to do with how much you work, but your attitude towards work. I live in america and believe me a love of hard work isn't especially a virtue, especially in the gaming demo-graph (young middle-class guys). where do you live? Canada, near the border [as everyone is basically]. And no shit teenagers arent the most motivated [though im sure thats replicated in europe as well]. Either way any casual glance at the amount americans [and to a lesser extent canadians] work relative to their European counterparts, or looking at stats on what people consider important etc etc, it comes back overwhelming: North Americans work far far far far more than Europeans [western europeans that is] and put a far far far higher importance on work, the necessity of succeeding on your own, and money. The result? North Americans are far more fucking ambitious. We dont have like four month vacations like sweden, surprise, kinda have to be. Most counter intuitive thing I ever heard, Europeans being work orientated. I think your misunderstanding me, I live in the midwest, and the focus for most americans around here, Is not on the work but the money. The whole american mindset is make as much money as you can as fast as you can so you DON'T have to work. Yes work is of a high importance because the real emphasis is on money and not work. It is extremely counter intuitive and actually your exactly right about american importance of work. Americans are concerned with self image and money, not much value is placed upon the actual act of doing work. Maybe its different where you live and of course we are generalizing an entire country. The result is still the same. If [as you said a generalization] an American goes into something, they are doing it in order to get money, and will work hard and be cut throat in order to get there. Obviously theres always that trade off of enjoyment and the like, but needless to say Idra works hard to get cash and anybody in America who looks at starcraft as something potentially beneficial to them monetarily will work extremely hard. Europe does not have that mentality, so accusing America of having a lazy mentality and Europe of having the opposite is simply wrong, and demonstrably wrong. And everyone here knows its wrong. edit: For that matter, outside of maybe hardcore Calvinists, your going to be hard pressed to find anyone on the planet who works hard just for its own sake. There's plenty of people out there that work doing something they love. They're not common but they're out there. There may be plenty of people that hate their job, but I think there is alot of people who love starcraft and do it for the sake of enjoyment, a Mr. Sean Plott [Day9] comes to mind.
Haha, this too. I don´t know why people think that you have to hate what you do unless you are smth silly like a pornstar or whatever. and they are not as uncommon as you think, as always its just that its much easier(and healthy) to complain and vent about the bad stuff in your life.
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Great post made for a good read
P.S 400th POST!!!!
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On September 07 2011 12:43 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 12:39 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 12:36 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 07 2011 12:29 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 12:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On September 07 2011 12:16 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 07 2011 12:13 lizzard_warish wrote:
Nothings more hysterical than a post claiming Americans do worse than fucking Europeans because they dont have a winners mindset. You know, America, the country where everything is engendered towards working hard and succeeding and it being your own fault if you fail, compared to sweden where...work is what? That annoying thing you do for a handful of hours every now and again.
Dear god. Seems a bit biased, You ever been to Sweden or Korea? It also has nothing to do with how much you work, but your attitude towards work. I live in america and believe me a love of hard work isn't especially a virtue, especially in the gaming demo-graph (young middle-class guys). where do you live? Canada, near the border [as everyone is basically]. And no shit teenagers arent the most motivated [though im sure thats replicated in europe as well]. Either way any casual glance at the amount americans [and to a lesser extent canadians] work relative to their European counterparts, or looking at stats on what people consider important etc etc, it comes back overwhelming: North Americans work far far far far more than Europeans [western europeans that is] and put a far far far higher importance on work, the necessity of succeeding on your own, and money. The result? North Americans are far more fucking ambitious. We dont have like four month vacations like sweden, surprise, kinda have to be. Most counter intuitive thing I ever heard, Europeans being work orientated. I think your misunderstanding me, I live in the midwest, and the focus for most americans around here, Is not on the work but the money. The whole american mindset is make as much money as you can as fast as you can so you DON'T have to work. Yes work is of a high importance because the real emphasis is on money and not work. It is extremely counter intuitive and actually your exactly right about american importance of work. Americans are concerned with self image and money, not much value is placed upon the actual act of doing work. Maybe its different where you live and of course we are generalizing an entire country. The result is still the same. If [as you said a generalization] an American goes into something, they are doing it in order to get money, and will work hard and be cut throat in order to get there. Obviously theres always that trade off of enjoyment and the like, but needless to say Idra works hard to get cash and anybody in America who looks at starcraft as something potentially beneficial to them monetarily will work extremely hard. Europe does not have that mentality, so accusing America of having a lazy mentality and Europe of having the opposite is simply wrong, and demonstrably wrong. And everyone here knows its wrong. edit: For that matter, outside of maybe hardcore Calvinists, your going to be hard pressed to find anyone on the planet who works hard just for its own sake. There's plenty of people out there that work doing something they love. They're not common but they're out there. There may be plenty of people that hate their job, but I think there is alot of people who love starcraft and do it for the sake of enjoyment, a Mr. Sean Plott [Day9] comes to mind. Haha, this too. I don´t know why people think that you have to hate what you do unless you are smth silly like a pornstar or whatever. and they are not as uncommon as you think, as always its just that its much easier(and healthy) to complain and vent about the bad stuff in your life.
This. If you've never been to a third world or poor country you wouldn't understand. If you go to a place like guatemala, you can see people who have almost nothing and are barely making it by. But strangely enough, their happy, really happy. They get through life by virtue of mindset, if all they cared about is their title or label of poor third world person, they wouldn't be that happy.
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This was a very interesting and informing post. I wasn't aware of the different mindsets or that you could change them, I am definatly a fixed mindset!
Where do you even start to try to change your mindset?
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On September 07 2011 12:51 GosuNinja wrote:
This was a very interesting and informing post. I wasn't aware of the different mindsets or that you could change them, I am definatly a fixed mindset!
Where do you even start to try to change your mindset?
Honestly it sounds crazy, but you have to talk to yourself, not out loud of course, but if it helps, why not.
Its hard but I found the best way is finding the voice/reasoning in your mind that:
Make excuses for what you can and cannot do, when you encounter a challenge or something difficult.
response: Tell yourself, that you are not limited by what people say you can and cannot do. If your not good at something its because you haven't had enough practice or you never really tried that. Attempt new things.
The part that tries to shelter your ego, by blaming something else other than yourself.
response: You lose a game or something goes wrong. Tell yourself its not luck, its not someone else, its not anything else. If you lost or something went wrong, there is always something you could have done better. Focus on that. If you lose or fail in some way. Don't concentrate or mull in your lose or failure, focus one WHAT YOU LEARNED from that experience. Reflect that because that happened you understand how to deal with that situation and you've grown.
Interprets every personal remark someone makes about you or something you do, as a comment on your person or pride.
response: someone just said you supply block yourself all the time. You hear, your a shitty player and a fucking noob. What you should hear, I supply block myself alot, I need to change something in my play, I'm going to iron out my builds a bit more, and focus my next 10 ladder games on not getting supply blocked.
the part that tells you that you don't want to work or practice because you don't have to.
response: You hear, If i have to practice that mean's im not good. You should hear, I need to practice in order to get better, I am going to embrace this challenge and really get myself into this new build or look at some replays and write down some timing attacks to be safe against.
the part that makes you jealous when someone else is doing good, or the part that tries to constantly justify why other people are not better than you in some aspects, or why your a better overall person.
Your friend makes master league and your still in diamond. You think, Jeez how'd he get into masters league I'm so much better than him, I beat him all the time. You should think, Wow im really happy my friend got into masters, I wonder what he improved to do it, maybe i can learn from him. I've got a masters practice partner awesome, Lets go run some practice games so I can refine my matchup.
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Love the thread, I actually am going to read into it some more when I get a chance.
have been going through depression and this hit home. I think I have a fixed mindset along with my negative thoughts that are feeding back into me being a failure and not getting past my problems (which makes it come full circle as a self fulfilling prophecy).
Also, at first I didn't care about going through the leagues and only about hitting injects and not getting supply blocked and always producing something out of my larva. Now that I've been in diamond, I am scared of failing to get to masters so I don't allow me to fail by not laddering whatsoever. Either way, thanks for the thread, it has made me think a ton.
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On September 07 2011 13:15 Demonace34 wrote:
Love the thread, I actually am going to read into it some more when I get a chance.
have been going through depression and this hit home. I think I have a fixed mindset along with my negative thoughts that are feeding back into me being a failure and not getting past my problems (which makes it come full circle as a self fulfilling prophecy).
Also, at first I didn't care about going through the leagues and only about hitting injects and not getting supply blocked and always producing something out of my larva. Now that I've been in diamond, I am scared of failing to get to masters so I don't allow me to fail by not laddering whatsoever. Either way, thanks for the thread, it has made me think a ton.
Fear of Failure is the biggest problem with a fixed mindset!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50389 Posts
I liked the article,one small problem though,White_RA is not Grandpatoss,Much is.
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just have a look at EG Huk and IM Fenix, i believe the ability is already there for a long time, its the positive mindset that makes them how they compete with the koreans now.
Especially for Fenix, look how much had changed in just a couple of days. The strength of will power!!
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Really nice writeup!
Enjoyed reading it.
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On September 07 2011 09:15 RedDragon571 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 09:13 BabyToss! wrote:Thank you for sharing this article, dear OP. I've found myself to be a typical example of 'Fixed mindset' by reading couple of definitions, although I'd argue couple of points against. But yeah, I hope with time, i'll be able to change it, even though I believe it's not uncommon knowledge that it's very difficult task to change one's mindset, especially if it was part of someone for so many years. Would definitelly read again.  Story of my life, try that book i listed called Mindset by Carol dweck, some of the most valuable stuff I ever read. Remember not every part of your personaility in necessarily fixed, most people have alot of different growth and fixed parts. It does indeed take alot of work with a lot of remissions, but just never give up.
If you're really not doing this for money, I'd suggest you start to lol.
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Ladder fear is a terrible thing indeed, i do my 5 games, get in diamond for a season then generally leave it there 
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EPT
