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On September 07 2011 15:29 rareh wrote:
"MVP doesn't 1-1-1 because he see's it as unfair and knows this strategy will be dealt with, so he opts to further develop his macro game and timings."
LOL he 1-1-1ed huk... also of the 3 games he did 2 cheeses and only 1 macro game.
didn't see those games, the play_xp interview said he didn't want to do it, but something about protoss on wanting to see how he defended it.
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Eeeexcellent write up, personally when I was reading it I thought "well i'm not one of those guys who think they're gosu and are afraid lol, I know I have to work really hard to get good"
Then it hit me, what excuse do I then have for not laddering? I couldn't think of a single one.
So congratz, you made me ladder again. This was previously thought to be impossible.
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The best example we have............ DAY 9
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people quitting a game has nothing to do with ladder fear
there are just so many gamers that dont stick with a game for a long time, thats it
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Thanks for the article, really shed a lot of light into my brain... im a fixed mindset too i guess, ill try to improve that! not only in sc2, but in life in general!
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Jealousy and ad hominem (people bashing) is common when other encounter success. you become jealous and enraged at the thought of someone being better than you, a ridiculous thought in itself.
/signed. People like this are ......
If this is the reason why you suffer from ladder fear,
If this is the reason why you BM people after a game,
Then you must be .........
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On September 07 2011 16:06 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +Jealousy and ad hominem (people bashing) is common when other encounter success. you become jealous and enraged at the thought of someone being better than you, a ridiculous thought in itself. /signed. People like this are ...... If this is the reason why you suffer from ladder fear, If this is the reason why you BM people after a game, Then you must be .........
not necessarily the direct reason but part of having a fixed mindset :D
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hmm looks like i have a very fixed mindset since i exhibit every single trait you listed. thanks for this epic post OP!
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On September 07 2011 15:29 rareh wrote:
"MVP doesn't 1-1-1 because he see's it as unfair and knows this strategy will be dealt with, so he opts to further develop his macro game and timings."
LOL he 1-1-1ed huk... also of the 3 games he did 2 cheeses and only 1 macro game.
This goes more along the lines of "Playing to Win" which is another good book/blog about what it takes to become a pro in any game. I'm sure MVP doesn't only do 1/1/1 in practice, but it is one of his builds that is a GO-TO build to mix it up and to throw his opponent off.
Either way, part of having that fixed mindset goes along with people thinking certain strategies are "cheap" or that they lost because of imbalance. Basically you always have to know that you made mistakes in the game and need to take that loss and improve from it.
Link to book: Playing to Win by Sirlin
On September 07 2011 16:04 robih wrote:
people quitting a game has nothing to do with ladder fear
there are just so many gamers that dont stick with a game for a long time, thats it
This is just false, I know for a fact people play less because of ladder fear or we wouldn't have a ton of threads with a ton of replies about it. We wouldn't have section of liquipedia that deals with anxiety and laddering. I've been one of those people, barely played 5 or 10 games in season 2 and almost quit because I was just too nervous to play.
I would agree that there are more reasons people stop playing. Boredom, other games, busy lifestyle, etc. They could all be reasons why people also leave, but I know for a fact that ladder fear and the downright competitive nature of SC2 turns people away from 1v1 laddering.
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Is there any sort of mindset that's in between? I feel that I exhibit elements of both mindsets, which is sort of strange, isn't it? I'm in Year 12 at the moment and coasting through school without studying etc. until about a month ago and getting straight A's, then suddenly bursting into a lot of effort to get the best result possible... in my case the extra work is a way to get a result, but a lot of the time in SC2 for example I play for the challenge and never blame imbalance as a result of losing.
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On September 07 2011 16:16 SteemdRIce wrote:
Is there any sort of mindset that's in between? I feel that I exhibit elements of both mindsets, which is sort of strange, isn't it? I'm in Year 12 at the moment and coasting through school without studying etc. until about a month ago and getting straight A's, then suddenly bursting into a lot of effort to get the best result possible... in my case the extra work is a way to get a result, but a lot of the time in SC2 for example I play for the challenge and never blame imbalance as a result of losing.
Yes, While for this post and for the understanding of the concept I outlined the two polar opposites, different aspects of your personality can exhibit fixed and growth qualities. But better understanding yourself can lead to a ton of self improvement with the understanding of mindsets.
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Thank you OP, thank you so much!
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OP:
Fascinating. Thank you for the post. It alluded to important things, I think. I'm reminded that people (Including myself) need to revisit the simple fact of structure and just simple thinking skills. This, rather than emotions as a guide. It helps to "verbalize" and to have a way of understanding.
I will read this book.
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Losing ladder players does not hurt e-sports. It's good that those who werent that interested in sc2 still bought the game because of effective marketing of Blizzard, then just left. Those who love the game but are anxious to ladder 1v1 will still play occasionally some games, and if they watched pro games, they will continue watching.
I'm one of those who are frustrated by ladder, i almost entirely skipped laddering in season 2, however i kept watching the pro games the same.
You cannot keep everyone happy, so there s no need to fix anything, because there is nothing broken.
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Really interesting read - definitely gonna try get out of my fixed mindset more and ladder constantly win or lose
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The mindset idea is great but it doesn't account for the large drop in 1vs1 play. What does is the fact that 1vs1 is the most stressful game type and the least social. If i boot up Halo i play with friends, i play CS with friends, if i log into WoW i play with my friends but in SC2 1vs1 i play solo against a unknown opponent. I for one don't really have time or the interestest to improve in 1vs1 and i find it alot more fun to spend time playing with bros.
Everything can't be broken down into growth vs fixed mindsets. It's alot about how much you like the game and what you want out of it.
Also having a growth mindset is good to a point. Working hard to improve is good but i've seen lots and lots of "growth mindset" people burn out at work, you need to balance the desire to improve with how much you can take before breaking. Just look at BW and SC2 with all the pros having CTS and requiring surgery in the 20's.
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So if I understand correctly you say that a fixed mindsets biggest fear is failure....but then you count naniwa as a growth mindset player? Naniwa said multiple times that failure is unacceptable and he does not care about anything but winning. Still he is one of the best because he works hard.
Another example is IdrA. When SC2 was starting he was in korea all on his own focusing only on practice. Reading your definitions IdrA clearly counts as a fixed mindset (Toss OP etc. you said it yourself) still he was the best foreigner in the first half year of starcraft 2. He made it past the cruel GSL Open qualifiers three times and never dropped out in the Ro64. He even made two Ro8. So I really dont see how your logic (if it can be called logic) is applied here.
All of the above are things that should be unachievable with your so called fixed mindset.
You also said that people that play team or custom games for fun or to try out new builds do that because of fear of 1v1? Are you serious? Is trying new stuff outside of the 1v1 ladder now forbidden? A real grotesque image.
In clonclusion I must say that Im happy to see people putting thought in this community but I find your write up very illinformed, riddled with contradictions and bad reasoning. Im glad the "mindset" book gave you the epiphany you needed but please dont call your post "ladder fear explained". LT.net is not a sect. Ladder fear is not explained by a book nor your personal understanding of the human mind and has even less to do with Koreans/Scandinavians being better that most NA-players.
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This is such a good write up. I've always only thought about winning... I stop playing after I lose 2 games in a row usually. That's because my mindset is just so wrong. Thanks.
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Fun read, but it seems somewhat biased :p The "fixed mindset" people are portrayed by you as cave trolls whereas the growth mindset people were described as the pc-gaming master race.
I'm Swedish. I identify myself with both of those characters though. I grew up "talented" and I definitely cruised in school, having an easy time with most things and then only being able to focus when the subject was interesting to me, causing me some difficulty as graduation approached.
On the flipside, I never feel jealous or rage at successful people and I no longer suffer from ladder anxiety. I've started playing more frequently, and I'm hoping to cross into Masters any day now. I don't love criticism but I certainly don't hate it either. I dunno.
edit: oh yeah, and I'M EFFORT!!
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EPT
