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On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:29 Tsubbi wrote:On September 05 2011 20:26 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:24 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:19 Numy wrote:On September 05 2011 20:09 Yaotzin wrote:
If the unknown Terrans qualified..well..that would be just evidence that the problem is worse than it appears, obviously. If top 10 Protoss/Zerg players can't even get in Code A...thankfully this didn't happen.
God forbid people qualify based on skill instead of being known. Right, so if GSL is hugely lopsided to Terrans, it's just because they're all better. It could *never* be imbalanced. I don't understand why people so hate the idea that the game just might be imbalanced. What are you proposing, that Terran players are all consistently more skilled than Zerg and Protoss players? Seriously? It's far more likely that they're just playing a race that's stronger. It has been said 10000 times: Terran is a finnished race, protoss and zerg are not. It has nothing to do with imbalance. i can't understand this attitude, balancing the game is a very hard task, but small tweaks could be made very easily without breaking the game, like decresing marine fire rate by 5% or decreasing mule mining by 5, then see what happens No, it's not possible to nerf marines, same for marauders. If you knew terran, they you knew that there is no lategame unit. Blizzard is known for making balanced games, so do you really think they won't nerf something when it's possible? For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No.
Impossible for Terran? I would like a source somewhere where it's described that TvP lategame is impossible for terran.
Thanks!
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On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:
For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No.
TvP lategame is impossible for Terran? Have you been away from the game since before the amulet removal or something? ATM Protoss is having huge trouble lategame against Terran - ghosts are wrecking face everywhere. Midgame timing attacks are the only thing ATM that Protoss are having a decent amount of success with.
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Switzerland3584 Posts
I don't want to imagine the Korean Protoss stats, guess they're below 40%.
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On September 05 2011 20:37 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:34 Truedot wrote:On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:29 Tsubbi wrote:On September 05 2011 20:26 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:24 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:19 Numy wrote:On September 05 2011 20:09 Yaotzin wrote:
If the unknown Terrans qualified..well..that would be just evidence that the problem is worse than it appears, obviously. If top 10 Protoss/Zerg players can't even get in Code A...thankfully this didn't happen.
God forbid people qualify based on skill instead of being known. Right, so if GSL is hugely lopsided to Terrans, it's just because they're all better. It could *never* be imbalanced. I don't understand why people so hate the idea that the game just might be imbalanced. What are you proposing, that Terran players are all consistently more skilled than Zerg and Protoss players? Seriously? It's far more likely that they're just playing a race that's stronger. It has been said 10000 times: Terran is a finnished race, protoss and zerg are not. It has nothing to do with imbalance. i can't understand this attitude, balancing the game is a very hard task, but small tweaks could be made very easily without breaking the game, like decresing marine fire rate by 5% or decreasing mule mining by 5, then see what happens No, it's not possible to nerf marines, same for marauders. If you knew terran, they you knew that there is no lategame unit. Blizzard is known for making balanced games, so do you really think they won't nerf something when it's possible? For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No. so you're saying there's a fundamental design flaw with the game. Yes, there actually is. They can never make terran lategame better, because this would mean that terran medgame would be too strong. People always see the terran in early and medgame, but never lategame. You will never say "nerf the marauder or nerf the marine" when you played lategame terran. Good luck fighting HT + collo + zealot + archon with a nerfed marauder / marine. Good luck fighting infestor + ultra or infestor + broodlord with a nerfed marauder / marine. Every supposed lategame terran unit gets destroyed lategame: BC's, thors and even tanks. Tweaks like a banshee nerf would be possible.
Your post is a total joke right...The lategame of protoss is STRONG YES.but the amount of damage u can do to the protoss before he gets to lategame is kinda insane?
Why the fuck an harass unit liek the banshee beats almost 2stalkers? 1v2
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That's the July numbers. He hasn't done the August ones yet.
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On September 05 2011 20:37 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:
For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No. TvP lategame is impossible for Terran? Have you been away from the game since before the amulet removal or something? ATM Protoss is having huge trouble lategame against Terran - ghosts are wrecking face everywhere. Midgame timing attacks are the only thing ATM that Protoss are having a decent amount of success with.
Post a game where a terran wins lategame against COLLOSSUS, ZEALOT, ARCHON and SPREADED ht's. Marauders die against zealots, so you need marines. Marines melt against HT and collossus. There is no change to win when toss has 5 bases, like they can have on those big GSL maps.
Win a battle as terran? No problem, thats 2 warpins and maxed again. Lose a battle as terran? Warp 1 round, maxed again, attack terrans raxes, GG.
I'm talking about a 5+base protoss.
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Switzerland3584 Posts
On September 05 2011 20:42 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:37 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:
For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No. TvP lategame is impossible for Terran? Have you been away from the game since before the amulet removal or something? ATM Protoss is having huge trouble lategame against Terran - ghosts are wrecking face everywhere. Midgame timing attacks are the only thing ATM that Protoss are having a decent amount of success with. Post a game where a terran wins lategame against COLLOSSUS, ZEALOT, ARCHON and SPREADED ht's. Marauders die against zealots, so you need marines. Marines melt against HT and collossus. There is no change to win when toss has 5 bases, like they can have on those big GSL maps. Win a battle as terran? No problem, thats 2 warpins and maxed again. Lose a battle as terran? Warp 1 round, maxed again, attack terrans raxes, GG.
Top vs Genius on Antiga Shipyard.
But that's not really relevant to the topic.
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On September 05 2011 20:40 Yaotzin wrote:That's the July numbers. He hasn't done the August ones yet.
I guess he don´t do August ones. Have updated OP, there are discrepancies from Julys stats between the 2 month. So I´m quite sure he combined Korea and International stats.
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On September 05 2011 20:43 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:42 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:37 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:
For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No. TvP lategame is impossible for Terran? Have you been away from the game since before the amulet removal or something? ATM Protoss is having huge trouble lategame against Terran - ghosts are wrecking face everywhere. Midgame timing attacks are the only thing ATM that Protoss are having a decent amount of success with. Post a game where a terran wins lategame against COLLOSSUS, ZEALOT, ARCHON and SPREADED ht's. Marauders die against zealots, so you need marines. Marines melt against HT and collossus. There is no change to win when toss has 5 bases, like they can have on those big GSL maps. Win a battle as terran? No problem, thats 2 warpins and maxed again. Lose a battle as terran? Warp 1 round, maxed again, attack terrans raxes, GG. Top vs Genius on Antiga Shipyard. But that's not really relevant to the topic.
Don't troll-bait 
It's obvious that claiming terran is UP vs toss in lategame when EMP has crushed souls lately must be a troll...
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On September 05 2011 20:45 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:43 Elefanto wrote:On September 05 2011 20:42 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:37 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:
For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No. TvP lategame is impossible for Terran? Have you been away from the game since before the amulet removal or something? ATM Protoss is having huge trouble lategame against Terran - ghosts are wrecking face everywhere. Midgame timing attacks are the only thing ATM that Protoss are having a decent amount of success with. Post a game where a terran wins lategame against COLLOSSUS, ZEALOT, ARCHON and SPREADED ht's. Marauders die against zealots, so you need marines. Marines melt against HT and collossus. There is no change to win when toss has 5 bases, like they can have on those big GSL maps. Win a battle as terran? No problem, thats 2 warpins and maxed again. Lose a battle as terran? Warp 1 round, maxed again, attack terrans raxes, GG. Top vs Genius on Antiga Shipyard. But that's not really relevant to the topic. Don't troll-bait It's obvious that claiming terran is UP vs toss in lategame when EMP has crushed souls lately must be a troll...
Several grandmaster toss friends are telling me that tvp lategame is EASY. They complain about 1-1-1, but if terran goes into a macrogame and they can get 4 bases up, its 90% win. That's THEIR word, not mine!
Another thing they say is that 80% of the terrans are 1-1-1'ing on ladder.
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On September 05 2011 20:47 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:45 sleepingdog wrote:On September 05 2011 20:43 Elefanto wrote:On September 05 2011 20:42 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:37 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:
For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No. TvP lategame is impossible for Terran? Have you been away from the game since before the amulet removal or something? ATM Protoss is having huge trouble lategame against Terran - ghosts are wrecking face everywhere. Midgame timing attacks are the only thing ATM that Protoss are having a decent amount of success with. Post a game where a terran wins lategame against COLLOSSUS, ZEALOT, ARCHON and SPREADED ht's. Marauders die against zealots, so you need marines. Marines melt against HT and collossus. There is no change to win when toss has 5 bases, like they can have on those big GSL maps. Win a battle as terran? No problem, thats 2 warpins and maxed again. Lose a battle as terran? Warp 1 round, maxed again, attack terrans raxes, GG. Top vs Genius on Antiga Shipyard. But that's not really relevant to the topic. Don't troll-bait It's obvious that claiming terran is UP vs toss in lategame when EMP has crushed souls lately must be a troll... Several grandmaster toss friends are telling me that tvp lategame is EASY. They complain about 1-1-1, but if terran goes into a macrogame and they can get 4 bases up, its 90% win. That's THEIR word, not mine!
I'm sure some Protoss are comfortable with it. It's not horribly imbalanced or anything. Equally though, plenty of Terrans have been wrecking Protoss face with ghosts. MC v Puma for example.
The idea that it's impossible for Terran is just comically wrong.
Terrans are doing 1-1-1 all the time because it's so damn strong, not because they're scared of lategame or w/e.
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no point in arguing, stats speak for themselves anyways
terran above 50% winrate from release despite serveral nerf / buffs to other races says everything, lets see if the minor adjustments in 1.4 will change that (doubt that very much though)
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On September 05 2011 20:50 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:47 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:45 sleepingdog wrote:On September 05 2011 20:43 Elefanto wrote:On September 05 2011 20:42 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:37 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:
For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No. TvP lategame is impossible for Terran? Have you been away from the game since before the amulet removal or something? ATM Protoss is having huge trouble lategame against Terran - ghosts are wrecking face everywhere. Midgame timing attacks are the only thing ATM that Protoss are having a decent amount of success with. Post a game where a terran wins lategame against COLLOSSUS, ZEALOT, ARCHON and SPREADED ht's. Marauders die against zealots, so you need marines. Marines melt against HT and collossus. There is no change to win when toss has 5 bases, like they can have on those big GSL maps. Win a battle as terran? No problem, thats 2 warpins and maxed again. Lose a battle as terran? Warp 1 round, maxed again, attack terrans raxes, GG. Top vs Genius on Antiga Shipyard. But that's not really relevant to the topic. Don't troll-bait It's obvious that claiming terran is UP vs toss in lategame when EMP has crushed souls lately must be a troll... Several grandmaster toss friends are telling me that tvp lategame is EASY. They complain about 1-1-1, but if terran goes into a macrogame and they can get 4 bases up, its 90% win. That's THEIR word, not mine! I'm sure some Protoss are comfortable with it. It's not horribly imbalanced or anything. Equally though, plenty of Terrans have been wrecking Protoss face with ghosts. MC v Puma for example. The idea that it's impossible for Terran is just comically wrong.
MC v Puma is a great example for a toss how to not play. MC clumped his HT's, and puma could emp them all. I am talking about the combination of 3-3 collossae, ht's, zealots and archons.
Let me remake my statement:
"TvP lategame is possible for T, if toss clumps up his whole ball".
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Theorycrafting is garbage. Reality is that MC is probably the best toss, at least top 3. And he gets crushed in lategame PvT. So calling TvP lategame impossible is a joke.
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He actually doesn't get crushed lategame, but believe w/e you want.
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How i used to say "The EMP Was not ok With that one" when i get EMP'D its funny
TVP lategame is ..
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He has many times. I believe what I see: Terrans win all the time in lategame. Calling it impossible is a farce, so stop the trolling.
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Seriously, the fuck. people are auctually suprised that bio sucks lategame vs Protoss?
How in the world would bio being on par with all protoss techpaths lategame be balanced.
Buff Mech VS P and nerf bio. would fix early game TvP and lategame TvP imo..
but whatever.
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EPT
