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On September 05 2011 20:57 RealQ wrote:
Seriously, the fuck. people are auctually suprised that bio sucks lategame vs Protoss?
How in the world would bio being on par with all protoss techpaths lategame be balanced.
Buff Mech VS P and nerf bio. would fix early game TvP and lategame TvP imo..
but whatever.
yeah great, u buff mech. tvt distills down to pure mech vs mech. balancing a race does not mean balancing 1 matchup
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poor toss  z/t seem fine
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Great stuff! I always look forward to seeing the statistics of the month!
I've got one little question though; is it possible that the stats may be misinterpreted at a glance since the winrate percentages are only represented in graphs were the axes are ranged from 40-60%? If you just take a quick look at the graphs without actually looking at the axis values and the point value of the line, the matchup winrates appear ridiculously imbalanced. I realize that for clarity, having a 0-100% axis is inconvenient, but maybe a graph with that could be added as well? You know, just to avoid confusion and misunderstanding 
Sorry if I'm being a pedantic and pretentious douche, please just ignore me if you feel that way. Keep up the great work! :D
EDIT: On September 05 2011 21:24 etrensce wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:57 RealQ wrote:
Seriously, the fuck. people are auctually suprised that bio sucks lategame vs Protoss?
How in the world would bio being on par with all protoss techpaths lategame be balanced.
Buff Mech VS P and nerf bio. would fix early game TvP and lategame TvP imo..
but whatever.
yeah great, u buff mech. tvt distills down to pure mech vs mech. balancing a race does not mean balancing 1 matchup
Yeah and imagine the implications of a mech buff in ZvT. I feel ghost/mech will be extremely hard to stop.
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PvZ and TvZ are getting much better, good to see both zerg and protoss making an improvement this month.
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On September 05 2011 21:44 Premier wrote:
PvZ and TvZ are getting much better, good to see both zerg and protoss making an improvement this month.
That's because foreigner / korea merger.
If you would look at them separately, i assume terran would be even higher than last
month in korea.
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On September 05 2011 19:23 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 19:20 SwampZero wrote:
Never once in the history of Starcraft II were zerg winning more than terran in TvZ ... http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.pngKorea solves! ^_^
i love how in april, the P winrates were below 33% while the T winrates were so high they didnt even fit on the chart anymore. 
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On September 05 2011 21:52 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 19:23 Beyonder wrote:On September 05 2011 19:20 SwampZero wrote:
Never once in the history of Starcraft II were zerg winning more than terran in TvZ ... http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.pngKorea solves! ^_^ i love how in april, the P winrates were below 33% while the T winrates were so high they didnt even fit on the chart anymore.
the top and bottom races on the graph always oppose each other's percentage, so since P is 32, T is 68.
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On September 05 2011 21:59 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 21:52 Black Gun wrote:On September 05 2011 19:23 Beyonder wrote:On September 05 2011 19:20 SwampZero wrote:
Never once in the history of Starcraft II were zerg winning more than terran in TvZ ... http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.pngKorea solves! ^_^ i love how in april, the P winrates were below 33% while the T winrates were so high they didnt even fit on the chart anymore. the top and bottom races on the graph always oppose each other's percentage, so since P is 32, T is 68.
no. this is wrong for so many reasons I'm too lazy to list them all. just look at the graph, you can clearly see that the T winrate is below 65%.
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United Arab Emirates137 Posts
I'm not sure about these statistics - After watching GSL MLG and playing lots I suspect it's actually much worse for Protoss at the moment than it suggests...
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On September 05 2011 20:47 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:45 sleepingdog wrote:On September 05 2011 20:43 Elefanto wrote:On September 05 2011 20:42 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:37 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:
For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame, so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No. TvP lategame is impossible for Terran? Have you been away from the game since before the amulet removal or something? ATM Protoss is having huge trouble lategame against Terran - ghosts are wrecking face everywhere. Midgame timing attacks are the only thing ATM that Protoss are having a decent amount of success with. Post a game where a terran wins lategame against COLLOSSUS, ZEALOT, ARCHON and SPREADED ht's. Marauders die against zealots, so you need marines. Marines melt against HT and collossus. There is no change to win when toss has 5 bases, like they can have on those big GSL maps. Win a battle as terran? No problem, thats 2 warpins and maxed again. Lose a battle as terran? Warp 1 round, maxed again, attack terrans raxes, GG. Top vs Genius on Antiga Shipyard. But that's not really relevant to the topic. Don't troll-bait  It's obvious that claiming terran is UP vs toss in lategame when EMP has crushed souls lately must be a troll... Several grandmaster toss friends are telling me that tvp lategame is EASY. They complain about 1-1-1, but if terran goes into a macrogame and they can get 4 bases up, its 90% win. That's THEIR word, not mine! Another thing they say is that 80% of the terrans are 1-1-1'ing on ladder.
It's easy cause terrans are not used to play macrogames, they do much worse
and even if protoss is ok balanced against terran lategame theres mid and early game that I won't even discuss
also there's pvz infestors..... ok it's depressing me
edit: oh I forgot my lately experiences in pvt lategame when terrans just emp every single ht in a scale of a emp per ht, it doesn't matter about splitting
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On September 05 2011 22:02 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 21:59 Truedot wrote:On September 05 2011 21:52 Black Gun wrote:On September 05 2011 19:23 Beyonder wrote:On September 05 2011 19:20 SwampZero wrote:
Never once in the history of Starcraft II were zerg winning more than terran in TvZ ... http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.pngKorea solves! ^_^ i love how in april, the P winrates were below 33% while the T winrates were so high they didnt even fit on the chart anymore. the top and bottom races on the graph always oppose each other's percentage, so since P is 32, T is 68. no. this is wrong for so many reasons I'm too lazy to list them all. just look at the graph, you can clearly see that the T winrate is below 65%.
What? That's not how % works lol
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On September 05 2011 21:24 etrensce wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:57 RealQ wrote:
Seriously, the fuck. people are auctually suprised that bio sucks lategame vs Protoss?
How in the world would bio being on par with all protoss techpaths lategame be balanced.
Buff Mech VS P and nerf bio. would fix early game TvP and lategame TvP imo..
but whatever.
yeah great, u buff mech. tvt distills down to pure mech vs mech. balancing a race does not mean balancing 1 matchup
buff mech. get 1-1-1 even more unbeatable.
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On September 05 2011 22:02 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 21:59 Truedot wrote:On September 05 2011 21:52 Black Gun wrote:On September 05 2011 19:23 Beyonder wrote:On September 05 2011 19:20 SwampZero wrote:
Never once in the history of Starcraft II were zerg winning more than terran in TvZ ... http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.pngKorea solves! ^_^ i love how in april, the P winrates were below 33% while the T winrates were so high they didnt even fit on the chart anymore. the top and bottom races on the graph always oppose each other's percentage, so since P is 32, T is 68. no. this is wrong for so many reasons I'm too lazy to list them all. just look at the graph, you can clearly see that the T winrate is below 65%.
looking back at this graph I;ll give you an example.
http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png
See games in may for all races. The lowest win rate and the highest win rate oppose each other.
They add up to 100 together which converts to 100%.
Example 1: PvT may
45.1 vs 55.9 opposing numbers in percentages, add them together to get 100.
Example 2:
ZvT may.
59.3 vs 40.7
again, the numbers oppose each other. add them up to 100.
this is basic math.
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Mhmmm.... That happens when Protoss wins most games with Timing-attacks and ppl start to figure them out IMHO, while Korean Terran-Players also know how to macro very well.... Btw. Why don't we see Death-Balls from Protoss that often anymore against Zerg? It's not like the build got nerfed or sth.
I also think that Protoss will soon get a better win-stat against Terran, cuz they'll too figure out how to beat abusing timing-attacks aka the 1/1/1-Build.
But I guess with the patch coming up and if Protoss utilizes the Prism more, it could even out quite a bit.
I highly question the use of this Graph though, cuz most players are still using the Ladder-Maps and on those Maps, it's a totally different story, especially on high masters where so many ppl just abuse the hell out of early aggression etc.
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On September 05 2011 20:33 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 20:29 Tsubbi wrote:On September 05 2011 20:26 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2011 20:24 Yaotzin wrote:On September 05 2011 20:19 Numy wrote:On September 05 2011 20:09 Yaotzin wrote:
If the unknown Terrans qualified..well..that would be just evidence that the problem is worse than it appears, obviously. If top 10 Protoss/Zerg players can't even get in Code A...thankfully this didn't happen.
God forbid people qualify based on skill instead of being known. Right, so if GSL is hugely lopsided to Terrans, it's just because they're all better. It could *never* be imbalanced. I don't understand why people so hate the idea that the game just might be imbalanced. What are you proposing, that Terran players are all consistently more skilled than Zerg and Protoss players? Seriously? It's far more likely that they're just playing a race that's stronger. It has been said 10000 times: Terran is a finnished race, protoss and zerg are not. It has nothing to do with imbalance. i can't understand this attitude, balancing the game is a very hard task, but small tweaks could be made very easily without breaking the game, like decresing marine fire rate by 5% or decreasing mule mining by 5, then see what happens No, it's not possible to nerf marines, same for marauders. If you knew terran, they you knew that there is no lategame unit. Blizzard is known for making balanced games, so do you really think they won't nerf something when it's possible? For example: TvP lategame is impossible for terran, but blizzard can't change this. Why not? Because buffing one of the "supposed" lategame units (like thors, ravens or BC's) would make them too good medgame. The result is that thors, ravens and BC's get demolished lategame,so terrans have to rely on MMM, ghosts and vikings. This is tier 1,5- tier 2 and it's normal that the protoss tier 3 destroys this. Can blizzard do something about this? No. Can they nerf the marine? No.
Why med game terran would be too good if they buff "thor, ravens, BC" ?
Because Terran can have them a lot quicker then zerg or toss have their End Game unit ?
if so, then add 20s (random number here :D) building time factory / starport / armory / Fusion core.
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Terran Winrates: We're gonna need a bigger chart...
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On September 05 2011 22:10 kickinhead wrote:
Mhmmm.... That happens when Protoss wins most games with Timing-attacks and ppl start to figure them out IMHO, while Korean Terran-Players also know how to macro very well.... Btw. Why don't we see Death-Balls from Protoss that often anymore against Zerg? It's not like the build got nerfed or sth.
I also think that Protoss will soon get a better win-stat against Terran, cuz they'll too figure out how to beat abusing timing-attacks aka the 1/1/1-Build.
But I guess with the patch coming up and if Protoss utilizes the Prism more, it could even out quite a bit.
I highly question the use of this Graph though, cuz most players are still using the Ladder-Maps and on those Maps, it's a totally different story, especially on high masters where so many ppl just abuse the hell out of early aggression etc.
Because MC and other people changed how people play normally to almost always blink stalker. Its more effective than a ball because of its ridiculous mobility.
zerg status mobility with protoss damage and HP values, and the ability to have ever living units, vs building a ball that gets chain fungaled.
Its still viable, its still damn deadly in the right hands, and it still overpowers a zerg that doesn't just mass infestors forever, but its not as efficient as blink stalker.
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On September 05 2011 22:10 kickinhead wrote:
Mhmmm.... That happens when Protoss wins most games with Timing-attacks and ppl start to figure them out IMHO, while Korean Terran-Players also know how to macro very well.... Btw. Why don't we see Death-Balls from Protoss that often anymore against Zerg? It's not like the build got nerfed or sth.
LOL at this post. You are saying that korean terrans prefer to macro, but most of the times they win with 1-1-1, interesting. We don't see deathballs against zerg because of the infestor.
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Eh, these numbers are incredibly close, I don't understand why you're all complaining. I think it's reasonable to assume that the balance changes next patch will bump protoss up a fair bit and providing no metagame changes, will leave us with very good stats.
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On September 05 2011 22:19 EmilA wrote:
Eh, these numbers are incredibly close, I don't understand why you're all complaining. I think it's reasonable to assume that the balance changes next patch will bump protoss up a fair bit and providing no metagame changes, will leave us with very good stats.
what? how can you say its balanced? have you looked at it historically? :|
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EPT
