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On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today.
Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals?
Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog.
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On September 28 2011 05:11 pPingu wrote:
Why doesn't blizzard simply ask to like 15 korean players (5z/5t/5p obviously) what they think is imbalanced, then they check it and if they come to the conclusion that is is imba they patch it instead of doing what they think is imba?
I think if anyone knows what the problem in the game is it's korean progamers.
Even if someone is rly good, doesn't mean he is not biased.
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On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog.
I don't like that Blizzard is probably going to surpass their 18 month goal (which was already long) for releasing the expansion. It's almost October, and still no news for a planned late January release for HotS  .
Hopefully, they release a TON of information at Blizzcon, so I'll be waiting  .
Even if someone is rly good, doesn't mean he is not biased.
Seeing as even Terran players like MVP say that TvP is T biased and 1/1/1 is epic win, I don't think it would be every man defending his faction.
Also, Blizzard knows that the game is designed subpar. They've said this several times in interviews, and the fact that they're adding/removing units in HOTS shows that they acknowledge this.
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On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog.
Watch a Professional Terran player in a macro game vs Protoss. Skip to the 20 minute mark. Notice the 50 minerals and 1500 gas. Marauders cost 25, medivacs cost 100, vikings cost 75. Terrans get mineral starved even though they drop dem mules. They float gas, just like a Zerg, who doesn't want to make lings or spines, floats minerals. Ghost 'buff' was a big nerf. They are more accessible early game but for their main use, every Terran player would prefer to have them at 150 gas.
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On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog.
Of course minerals are a problem for Terran. They have to mass marines AND build hellions to kill all of your workers. With all of those strong units costing minerals only that barely leaves any for poor Terran players to build ghosts...
/sarcasm
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Dem Korean toss winrates... T_T
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On September 22 2011 06:31 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:18 SniXSniPe wrote:
Your logic doesn't take into consideration that maybe Terran has the best players/most talented players playing that race (not saying it does, just giving an example). Imagine, SC2 with 5 Players playing as good as Flash and only 1 Zerg playing at the level of Jaedong.
This is honestly something a lot of people don't think about. There are obviously limits to how skewed a race can be, but you can't expect equal numbers. If this game is supposed to be about the best players winning, it's almost impossible that the best players are going to be evenly distributed among all three races. It's far more likely that one or two races are going to be skewed, otherwise it's admitting this game doesn't take skill and is a matter of making each matchup a 50/50 coinflip. The same thing can be said about GSL race distribution being skewed. Starcraft isn't supposed to be reaching quotas, it's having the best players win.
This, the end.
On September 22 2011 06:37 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:31 SolidMoose wrote:
This is honestly something a lot of people don't think about. There are obviously limits to how skewed a race can be, but you can't expect equal numbers. If this game is supposed to be about the best players winning, it's almost impossible that the best players are going to be evenly distributed among all three races. It's far more likely that one or two races are going to be skewed, otherwise it's admitting this game doesn't take skill and is a matter of making each matchup a 50/50 coinflip.
The same thing can be said about GSL race distribution being skewed. Starcraft isn't supposed to be reaching quotas, it's having the best players win. this argument is scewed because you will never be able to decide whether it was imbalance or the players skill that made the difference. Using this argument is nonsense, but what we clearly see is that Terran has "complete" design while Zerg and Protoss do not. Which is one form of imbalance. Would you call a game balanced in the future if everyone was playing terran in the end? obviously not. If you would recommend someone who want to become pro which race he should play? This would obviously be Terran, if the game was balanced, there shouldn't be a race to recommend.
Bullshit. The only thing we "clearly" can see is that Terrans are winning more.
Whether that's because they got the best players, are imbalanced, more complete is anyones guess. Yours is as crap as anyone elses.
As far as recommending someone who want to become pro which race he should play? Are you for real? There are enough protoss and zerg champions all over the place to make that an impossible choice.
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On September 28 2011 05:43 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog. Watch a Professional Terran player in a macro game vs Protoss. Skip to the 20 minute mark. Notice the 50 minerals and 1500 gas. Marauders cost 25, medivacs cost 100, vikings cost 75. Terrans get mineral starved even though they drop dem mules. They float gas, just like a Zerg, who doesn't want to make lings or spines, floats minerals. Ghost 'buff' was a big nerf. They are more accessible early game but for their main use, every Terran player would prefer to have them at 150 gas.
Terran players shouldn't float gas. If a Terran player has too much, then they're mismanaging their resources. They shouldn't be building so many geysers, or wasting so many SCVs mining gas.
The only time any race should float gas is if they're going to need it later. For example, if they want to throw down 8 templar and get four archons fast. If MMMG ghosts as little gas as you say, and Terrans are floating as much gas as you say, then there's a big opportunity to optimize Terran play in the PVT matchup.
Pretty scary thought for Toss players-_-.
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On September 28 2011 05:45 Achaia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog. Of course minerals are a problem for Terran. They have to mass marines AND build hellions to kill all of your workers. With all of those strong units costing minerals only that barely leaves any for poor Terran players to build ghosts... /sarcasm
I KNOW! Poor babies, they have to make so many T1 units in TvP and the only thing that they're allowed to spend gas on are medivacs.
Well, I know what the solution is. Marines cost 50 gas instead of 50 minerals. That way he can make more ghosts!
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On September 28 2011 06:05 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:43 Micket wrote:On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog. Watch a Professional Terran player in a macro game vs Protoss. Skip to the 20 minute mark. Notice the 50 minerals and 1500 gas. Marauders cost 25, medivacs cost 100, vikings cost 75. Terrans get mineral starved even though they drop dem mules. They float gas, just like a Zerg, who doesn't want to make lings or spines, floats minerals. Ghost 'buff' was a big nerf. They are more accessible early game but for their main use, every Terran player would prefer to have them at 150 gas. Terran players shouldn't float gas. If a Terran player has too much, then they're mismanaging their resources. They shouldn't be building so many geysers, or wasting so many SCVs mining gas. The only time any race should float gas is if they're going to need it later. For example, if they want to throw down 8 templar and get four archons fast. If MMMG ghosts as little gas as you say, and Terrans are floating as much gas as you say, then there's a big opportunity to optimize Terran play in the PVT matchup. Pretty scary thought for Toss players-_-.
That's more true than most Terrans would like to think.
If a Terran is dragging 1500 gas, he SHOULD have mined 2k+ more minerals instead with the same amount of investment/time.
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On September 28 2011 06:18 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:05 -_- wrote:On September 28 2011 05:43 Micket wrote:On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog. Watch a Professional Terran player in a macro game vs Protoss. Skip to the 20 minute mark. Notice the 50 minerals and 1500 gas. Marauders cost 25, medivacs cost 100, vikings cost 75. Terrans get mineral starved even though they drop dem mules. They float gas, just like a Zerg, who doesn't want to make lings or spines, floats minerals. Ghost 'buff' was a big nerf. They are more accessible early game but for their main use, every Terran player would prefer to have them at 150 gas. Terran players shouldn't float gas. If a Terran player has too much, then they're mismanaging their resources. They shouldn't be building so many geysers, or wasting so many SCVs mining gas. The only time any race should float gas is if they're going to need it later. For example, if they want to throw down 8 templar and get four archons fast. If MMMG ghosts as little gas as you say, and Terrans are floating as much gas as you say, then there's a big opportunity to optimize Terran play in the PVT matchup. Pretty scary thought for Toss players-_-. That's more true than most Terrans would like to think. If a Terran is dragging 1500 gas, he SHOULD have mined 2k+ more minerals instead with the same amount of investment/time.
Code S terrans aren't dragging 1500 gas tho. It's normally the diamond level terran who puts 18 workers in gas while he's spamming marauders.
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The graph makes no sense to me. PvT is 45%? That's not what I've been seeing. O_O
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Zerg = most balanced race??
But seriously, terran has never been below 50% overall... also for all those people whining about recent polls, look at zerg in January... *SHIVER* Zerg strategy has come a long way and looking at the graph now I would hold my breath on any changes for zerg an toss until this winter cus the downward toss trend has not really been longer than the zerg trend.
But Terran winrate is a little frustrating... maybe its the most balanced race between skill and noobiness?
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Almost exclusively protoss players throwing in some "soft-QQ" all over this thread.
OP: If anything struck me when seeing this, it was how balanced the winrates are overall^^
Must be alot of calculation and thinking going into the balance changes, as the winrate seem to magically close in on eachother scary fast.
good job so far blizzard.
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Damn..the Korean zergs are so good...
Toss still trying to catch up it seems ....
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On September 28 2011 05:43 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog. Watch a Professional Terran player in a macro game vs Protoss. Skip to the 20 minute mark. Notice the 50 minerals and 1500 gas. Marauders cost 25, medivacs cost 100, vikings cost 75. Terrans get mineral starved even though they drop dem mules. They float gas, just like a Zerg, who doesn't want to make lings or spines, floats minerals. Ghost 'buff' was a big nerf. They are more accessible early game but for their main use, every Terran player would prefer to have them at 150 gas.
yeah i kinda agree, at least in the endgame. if blizzard hadnt nerfed the thor with the energy though, i think it wouldve been a buff, cause it wouldve made mech vs toss more viable. that wouldve been really nice.
@ppl saying "manage your economy better herp derp" what are you gonna do if you are fully saturated everywhere? you put scvs out of into geysers, so you can maybe use the mins later on.
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On September 28 2011 05:37 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:11 pPingu wrote:
Why doesn't blizzard simply ask to like 15 korean players (5z/5t/5p obviously) what they think is imbalanced, then they check it and if they come to the conclusion that is is imba they patch it instead of doing what they think is imba?
I think if anyone knows what the problem in the game is it's korean progamers. Even if someone is rly good, doesn't mean he is not biased.
True, but I'd still take that over the current balance "team" (The entire team is David Kim reporting to Dustin Browder).
Nothing personal against David Kim, but seriously, you can't entrust balance to 1 guy without having a distorted outcome.
Why couldn't there be a panel for determining balance?
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On September 29 2011 14:36 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:37 DertoQq wrote:On September 28 2011 05:11 pPingu wrote:
Why doesn't blizzard simply ask to like 15 korean players (5z/5t/5p obviously) what they think is imbalanced, then they check it and if they come to the conclusion that is is imba they patch it instead of doing what they think is imba?
I think if anyone knows what the problem in the game is it's korean progamers. Even if someone is rly good, doesn't mean he is not biased. True, but I'd still take that over the current balance "team" (The entire team is David Kim reporting to Dustin Browder). Nothing personal against David Kim, but seriously, you can't entrust balance to 1 guy without having a distorted outcome. Why couldn't there be a panel for determining balance?
It's not just one person.
......
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On September 28 2011 06:18 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:05 -_- wrote:On September 28 2011 05:43 Micket wrote:On September 28 2011 05:32 AndyGB4 wrote:On September 28 2011 04:58 aderum wrote:On September 22 2011 07:58 Snowbear wrote:On September 22 2011 06:12 arsenic wrote:
It's always been weird to me too that all the changes (nerfs mostly) historically have been hitting Zerg/Protoss while Terran escapes relatively unscathed (bunker change lol) patch after patch when it's so clear that Terran is the best race or in Blizzard's own words "the race with the most options". They really need to curb Terran though and hopefully soon. =/
Also, Protoss win rates are much higher than expected. Given the QQ lately, you'd think it would be much lower... but alas, TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of all. - the ghost cost changed to 200/100 (this is a nerf, because gas is no problem for terran, minerals are) what???? Since when is minerals a problem for Terran? thats the dumbest thing i heard today. Lol exactly! Last time i checked Terran has this thing called MULE that collects minerals? Anyways, I think that once HotS comes out, all these statistics wont mean much, because the new units and units removed will change everything, and who knows maybe some other race might take over as the top dog. Watch a Professional Terran player in a macro game vs Protoss. Skip to the 20 minute mark. Notice the 50 minerals and 1500 gas. Marauders cost 25, medivacs cost 100, vikings cost 75. Terrans get mineral starved even though they drop dem mules. They float gas, just like a Zerg, who doesn't want to make lings or spines, floats minerals. Ghost 'buff' was a big nerf. They are more accessible early game but for their main use, every Terran player would prefer to have them at 150 gas. Terran players shouldn't float gas. If a Terran player has too much, then they're mismanaging their resources. They shouldn't be building so many geysers, or wasting so many SCVs mining gas. The only time any race should float gas is if they're going to need it later. For example, if they want to throw down 8 templar and get four archons fast. If MMMG ghosts as little gas as you say, and Terrans are floating as much gas as you say, then there's a big opportunity to optimize Terran play in the PVT matchup. Pretty scary thought for Toss players-_-. That's more true than most Terrans would like to think. If a Terran is dragging 1500 gas, he SHOULD have mined 2k+ more minerals instead with the same amount of investment/time.
Seing as marines don't cost any gas, and there is only one unit that costs more gas than minerals, it is easy to see how terrans can float a lot of gas.
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On September 29 2011 14:46 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 14:36 Brotocol wrote:On September 28 2011 05:37 DertoQq wrote:On September 28 2011 05:11 pPingu wrote:
Why doesn't blizzard simply ask to like 15 korean players (5z/5t/5p obviously) what they think is imbalanced, then they check it and if they come to the conclusion that is is imba they patch it instead of doing what they think is imba?
I think if anyone knows what the problem in the game is it's korean progamers. Even if someone is rly good, doesn't mean he is not biased. True, but I'd still take that over the current balance "team" (The entire team is David Kim reporting to Dustin Browder). Nothing personal against David Kim, but seriously, you can't entrust balance to 1 guy without having a distorted outcome. Why couldn't there be a panel for determining balance? It's not just one person. ......
Believe it or not... It actually is!
Dustin Browder said it himself in an interview.
edit: Nominally, it's also got Matt Cooper, but the interview I watched (I can't pinpoint it, it's a needle in a haystack) stated that it was just David Kim, reporting to Dustin Browder.
edit #2: Don't quote me on this, but as far as I can tell, David Kim is the only one above diamond.
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EPT
