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On September 02 2011 18:52 sleepingdog wrote:
The example of Nadal and Federer is actually a terrible one lol...
Both make way, way, WAY more money from sponsorship and doing advertising on television, the prize-money is big and nothing they'd refuse to take, but both definitely don't rely on the money.
Which just further reinforces the point I was trying to make: they don't try to win Wimbledon for the money (although in the long run the money DOES go to the winner, because they can turn their winnings into lucrative sponsor contracts, tv deals, etc). The winnings of the tournament are a nice bonus in addition to the prestige of the victory itself. Winning Wimbledon means you are that year's best tennis player on a grass court. Similar for Roland Garros and gravel: those bragging rights, your place in sports history, etc. are secured. In 2 years who will remember Inca? Nobody. However, if he had beaten Nestea he would've been a GSL winner, not some nobody who lucked his way into second place.
Add that to the extremely competitive personality you have to have to even get into professional sports/gaming and I don't see players not caring about the finals.
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On September 02 2011 19:01 halvorg wrote:
Prizes create a legitimacy for the tournament and they make the games more exciting. How often do you hear casters say "If he wins this next engagement he might go home with FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS!!" or some such? I hear it every single finals. To know that there is a real monetary incentive to play your very best and that there is pressure going into the games makes the finals of a major tournament stand out from a Go4SC2 finals between 2 good players.
When ToD, TT1 or Merz wins a large tournament and holds up his giant cheque I find it deceitful to have secretly made that cheque non relevant to the finals. The money is yours to do with as you please, but I do not have to like it. And please, if you plan to ruin another finals, just dont tell anyone. Ignorance was bliss for me atleast.
Where in this thread has I ever admitted to prize splitting? I'm just arguing my standpoint. This doesn't necessairly mean that I'm doing this myself (I can't even remember a scenario where I could have been doing this.)
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oh what the fuck?
Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!?
This is getting really weird now.
"While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl
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On September 02 2011 19:02 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:57 skeldark wrote:On September 02 2011 18:53 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 18:42 skeldark wrote:On September 02 2011 18:40 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 18:35 skeldark wrote:
I missed an important point here or the hole thread is total pointless.
After the winner gets the money its his money. He can do with his money whatever he wants.
So if he give a friend half of his money you can not disallow this.
No one throw a match, everyone try to win, no one broke any rules... You can't say no one broke any rules unless you can show that "deal making" regarding splitting of prizes is acceptable. In the entirety of this thread, we've seen links to cases of players being banned from MLG (not SC2 related, however) and pro players weighing in that it's done and they just need to keep it quiet. Based on what do you conclude that "no one broke any rules" in a prize-splitting agreement before a match ? Is there a rule over how to spend the money after you won? Even if they make such a rule its pointless because you cannot say how he should spend HIS money... and lets say A and B are in the finals and make a deal. But the tournament say: you are not allowed to give YOUR pricemoney to someone else Than he can: give it to Cc and C give it to B or give B 2500 from OTHER money he owns or buy something from B for 2500. you see how pointless it is try to force people how they should spend there money? its not about HOW he spends his money AFTER hes won. Its about HOW the tournament WANTS to spend THEIR money BEFORE the players get it. And if they want their money to be spent on two players competing to their best, two players agreeing not to play their best behind the tournaments back, are thus defrauding the tournament and what it believes is happening in the transaction. As if you agreed to sell a product to someone, and then they gave you fake money. Either way i show that you can not make a rule to disalow it. its just impossible. And who say that the player dont give there best? because there is no money to win? If you ladder do you play extra bad only because you dont win money? 1) its obvious there can not be a rule to disallow it. 2) obvious its not against any law so its not illegal like the op try to say 3) you can argue that the finals are worse than but i don't get why they should be.... Its pretty obvious you can. if the tournament puts a clause that states that there be no "agreements between players that will detract how the tournament plays out, and that all players must play to win or lose all the money, and that if any said agreement is found to have been made before the games or during, the players must forfeit their earnings", then yea, even if it becomes their money temporarily, they did it in breach of contract and thus can have their money taken away legally. of course they cant say how you spend it after you own it, but they can say under what conditions you come to own it in the first place. and if those conditions are violated, you can't spend it after the fact. So its not impossible.
Ok. thats your tournement rule? than this is my contract between players.
"If someone get 5k in this week he has to buy a peace of shit from the other one for 2.5k"
agreements between players that will detract how the tournament plays out - i didnt say something over the tournament or a how its playout...
and that all players must play to win or lose all the money,
they do!
they play for the winning money and only the winner gets it.
my contract is about there own money and its only between them no 3. party included ( your tournament).
and that if any said agreement is found to have been made before the games or during, the players must forfeit their earnings
its not found...
I can come up with 100 different contracts that run the money over the team than pay back to players, i can come up with a bet between them, there is no way you can froce me how to spend my own money....
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On September 02 2011 19:04 Medrea wrote:oh what the fuck? Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!? This is getting really weird now. Show nested quote +"While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl
Yeah I wonder where whoever wrote the article even got the information that they split. Very strange indeed. There must be some shred of truth to it.
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On September 02 2011 19:09 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 19:04 Medrea wrote:oh what the fuck? Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!? This is getting really weird now. "While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl Yeah I wonder where whoever wrote the article even got the information that they split. Very strange indeed. There must be some shred of truth to it.
Either way, something shady is goin on in this sumbitch. The article writer got his hands on information that Fenix disagrees with and TT1 didnt seem to know about.
Im at a loss for a common explanation as to how this can come to be.
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I think honestly that it is okay. They still play the match without agreeing to the result beforehand, making it an entire different thing from match fixing. It is understandable that team mates wont gamble with what income they need to stay competitive. We as spectators still get an honestly played match. I think you forget that there are other effects which can motivate you to play good. Winning in itself is a huge boost to your recognition as a player, which means players will still play to win, even though the money question is out of the picture.
Besides how would you be able to prove it if made illegal? This sort of thing would be very easy to hide and very hard to present evidence that it happened. Imo checking these kind of things would make the sc2 esports scene into a more bureaucratic sport. which sc2 does not need.
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On September 02 2011 19:19 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 19:17 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:09 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 19:04 Medrea wrote:oh what the fuck? Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!? This is getting really weird now. "While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl Yeah I wonder where whoever wrote the article even got the information that they split. Very strange indeed. There must be some shred of truth to it. Either way, something shady is goin on in this sumbitch. The article writer got his hands on information that Fenix disagrees with and TT1 didnt seem to know about. Im at a loss for a common explanation as to how this can come to be. I'm guessing they talked to fnatics SC2 manager guy which would be Xeris? And I guess he decided what his players are going to do without talking to them? Only explanation that makes sense to me.
That would explain why Fnatic said Fenix wasn't producing results compared to the rest of the team, which is a really odd thing to say.
It would also explain why Fenix denied it. (In the article)
And I wouldn't put it past TT1 to take advantage of the situation.
Hmmm, maybe. Something still doesn't add up though, why would Xeris care? Also other things make this not a complete explanation. But it's a pretty good one. Guess we won't know unless someone comes out about it.
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On September 02 2011 19:21 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 19:19 zeru wrote:On September 02 2011 19:17 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:09 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 19:04 Medrea wrote:oh what the fuck? Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!? This is getting really weird now. "While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl Yeah I wonder where whoever wrote the article even got the information that they split. Very strange indeed. There must be some shred of truth to it. Either way, something shady is goin on in this sumbitch. The article writer got his hands on information that Fenix disagrees with and TT1 didnt seem to know about. Im at a loss for a common explanation as to how this can come to be. I'm guessing they talked to fnatics SC2 manager guy which would be Xeris? And I guess he decided what his players are going to do without talking to them? Only explanation that makes sense to me. That would explain why Fnatic said Fenix wasn't producing results compared to the rest of the team, which is a really odd thing to say. It would also explain why Fenix denied it. And I wouldn't put it past TT1 to take advantage of the situation. Hmmm, maybe. Something still doesn't add up though, why would Xeris care?
Jesus.
You guys are just getting a kick off making conspiracy theories that make no sense are you? There's a really simple explanation to TT1s comment in that post if you just think a little. And not so big.
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On September 02 2011 19:23 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 19:21 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:19 zeru wrote:On September 02 2011 19:17 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:09 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 19:04 Medrea wrote:oh what the fuck? Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!? This is getting really weird now. "While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl Yeah I wonder where whoever wrote the article even got the information that they split. Very strange indeed. There must be some shred of truth to it. Either way, something shady is goin on in this sumbitch. The article writer got his hands on information that Fenix disagrees with and TT1 didnt seem to know about. Im at a loss for a common explanation as to how this can come to be. I'm guessing they talked to fnatics SC2 manager guy which would be Xeris? And I guess he decided what his players are going to do without talking to them? Only explanation that makes sense to me. That would explain why Fnatic said Fenix wasn't producing results compared to the rest of the team, which is a really odd thing to say. It would also explain why Fenix denied it. And I wouldn't put it past TT1 to take advantage of the situation. Hmmm, maybe. Something still doesn't add up though, why would Xeris care? Jesus. You guys are just getting a kick off making conspiracy theories that make no sense are you? There's a really simple explanation to TT1s comment in that post if you just think a little. And not so big.
Why would he act all surprised one minute, and entitled 8 months later? After the tournament? And why would he carrier rush or whatever if he did not know? Im confused.
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On September 02 2011 19:03 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 19:01 halvorg wrote:
Prizes create a legitimacy for the tournament and they make the games more exciting. How often do you hear casters say "If he wins this next engagement he might go home with FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS!!" or some such? I hear it every single finals. To know that there is a real monetary incentive to play your very best and that there is pressure going into the games makes the finals of a major tournament stand out from a Go4SC2 finals between 2 good players.
When ToD, TT1 or Merz wins a large tournament and holds up his giant cheque I find it deceitful to have secretly made that cheque non relevant to the finals. The money is yours to do with as you please, but I do not have to like it. And please, if you plan to ruin another finals, just dont tell anyone. Ignorance was bliss for me atleast. Where in this thread has I ever admitted to prize splitting? I'm just arguing my standpoint. This doesn't necessairly mean that I'm doing this myself (I can't even remember a scenario where I could have been doing this.)
I respect you for arguing your standpoint intelligently unlike some other 'pros', but in doing this you must realize that you do run the risk of being associated with this behavior. How are we supposed to know if you're close enough friends with the other finalist in order to start considering prize-splitting with him? How are we supposed to know that players actually still try their hardest and don't throw games and pretend to themselves that they went all out? Who says that handling the pressure from winning all that money shouldn't be a factor in determining the winner?
I'm not saying it's right to do so, but some would just rather be safe and condemn anyone remotely related to the issue than potentially supporting such behavior.
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On September 02 2011 19:24 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 19:23 meRz wrote:On September 02 2011 19:21 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:19 zeru wrote:On September 02 2011 19:17 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:09 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 19:04 Medrea wrote:oh what the fuck? Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!? This is getting really weird now. "While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl Yeah I wonder where whoever wrote the article even got the information that they split. Very strange indeed. There must be some shred of truth to it. Either way, something shady is goin on in this sumbitch. The article writer got his hands on information that Fenix disagrees with and TT1 didnt seem to know about. Im at a loss for a common explanation as to how this can come to be. I'm guessing they talked to fnatics SC2 manager guy which would be Xeris? And I guess he decided what his players are going to do without talking to them? Only explanation that makes sense to me. That would explain why Fnatic said Fenix wasn't producing results compared to the rest of the team, which is a really odd thing to say. It would also explain why Fenix denied it. And I wouldn't put it past TT1 to take advantage of the situation. Hmmm, maybe. Something still doesn't add up though, why would Xeris care? Jesus. You guys are just getting a kick off making conspiracy theories that make no sense are you? There's a really simple explanation to TT1s comment in that post if you just think a little. And not so big. Why would he act all surprised one minute, and entitled 8 months later? After the tournament? And why would he carrier rush or whatever if he did not know? Im confused.
Probably because he didn't want the deal to be public. Makes the most sense.
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It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed.
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On September 02 2011 19:17 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 19:09 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 19:04 Medrea wrote:oh what the fuck? Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!? This is getting really weird now. "While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl Yeah I wonder where whoever wrote the article even got the information that they split. Very strange indeed. There must be some shred of truth to it. Either way, something shady is goin on in this sumbitch. The article writer got his hands on information that Fenix disagrees with and TT1 didnt seem to know about. Im at a loss for a common explanation as to how this can come to be.
So they don't do laundry in public, since then a 55 page (and going) thread on TL would pop-up, questioning the very fabric of society and whether we do indeed live in the Matrix?
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On September 02 2011 19:25 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 19:24 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:23 meRz wrote:On September 02 2011 19:21 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:19 zeru wrote:On September 02 2011 19:17 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 19:09 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 19:04 Medrea wrote:oh what the fuck? Look at TT1's reaction. He didnt even know!? This is getting really weird now. "While the Peruvian came out as the victor, the two agreed on splitting the prize money of $15,000 USD."
wtf? LOL
i guess thank u for ur kindness fenix rofl Yeah I wonder where whoever wrote the article even got the information that they split. Very strange indeed. There must be some shred of truth to it. Either way, something shady is goin on in this sumbitch. The article writer got his hands on information that Fenix disagrees with and TT1 didnt seem to know about. Im at a loss for a common explanation as to how this can come to be. I'm guessing they talked to fnatics SC2 manager guy which would be Xeris? And I guess he decided what his players are going to do without talking to them? Only explanation that makes sense to me. That would explain why Fnatic said Fenix wasn't producing results compared to the rest of the team, which is a really odd thing to say. It would also explain why Fenix denied it. And I wouldn't put it past TT1 to take advantage of the situation. Hmmm, maybe. Something still doesn't add up though, why would Xeris care? Jesus. You guys are just getting a kick off making conspiracy theories that make no sense are you? There's a really simple explanation to TT1s comment in that post if you just think a little. And not so big. Why would he act all surprised one minute, and entitled 8 months later? After the tournament? And why would he carrier rush or whatever if he did not know? Im confused. Probably because he didn't want the deal to be public. Makes the most sense.
Yeah I considered that he was putting it on. Somehow I don't think so. And fenix clearly disagreed right then and there. It just took 8 months for it to come to a head?
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On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed.
You can do that! i try to explain for 3 pages now that there is no way at all for any tournament to shut down deals. A lawyer can always make a contract between the players so the rules are not touched.
But the tournament CAN make a rule that the players are not allowed to talk about contracts between them and other players of the tournament...
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On September 02 2011 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's very simple. No matter whether you think it is fine or not fine to actually do it:
This has to be illegal to talk about it in public, no doubt about it. If it is legal and players can openly talk about splitting prize money then this ruins all anticipation and hype around a match. Besides anticipation and hype it can also influence the level of the finals.
For big live poker tournaments it is often against the rules to talk about deals, but it is accomodated nonetheless off camera. I don't know what would be right for SC2 right now. Can you really prevent people from sharing the money they win?
I do know that talking about it should be at the very least not allowed.
Well obviously that works for the sponsors, but in the end the hear no evil see no evil approach still robs the spectators.
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EPT
