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Technically I think 'deal making' is not match fixing, since the outcome of the games is not determined, only the splitting of the prize pool. That being said, I think it's a terrible practice in a game like StarCraft. Especially in the finals, when the players know the outcome of the game does not really affect them, there's always the risk of them not playing seriously, and thus, of the games not being interesting to watch.
I also think a deal like 'the winner taking the loser out to dinner' is a different kind of deal, because it won't cause the players to take the match less seriously.
On September 02 2011 15:44 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 15:37 Zanno wrote:
doesn't boxer talk about doing this in his biography
just throwing this out there probably every korean teammates facing in finals have done this before, it is so common it baffles me how some people here seems to be that offended by it also can we see this anywhere?
It has nothing to do with whether it's common or not. It still remains wrong from a competitive point of view, since it diminishes the competitive aspect of the finals.
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On September 02 2011 15:42 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 15:35 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 15:34 Tektos wrote:On September 02 2011 15:30 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 15:28 Tektos wrote:On September 02 2011 15:25 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 15:24 Tektos wrote:On September 02 2011 15:23 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 15:20 Tektos wrote:On September 02 2011 15:20 benjammin wrote:
[quote]
is something unclear here? they had an agreement to split the money, which can be corroborated by xeris. fenix reneged There is no evidence they had an agreement. Common sense tells us that at least TT1 tried to set it up :p. Whether or not Fenix fully understood is a different story, but there's no reason to make up something like this with no grounds. There's nothing to gain for TT1 and only bad publicity to gain for Fnatic. Sometimes people do things out of bad blood purely to tarnish another person's opinion. Not saying this is the case, but it is just as likely a possibility. But at the cost of jeopardize his team's reputation and his own career in starcraft 2? I highly doubt it. Speculation on both sides. Once again, no evidence so take what you hear with a gain of salt. This isn't speculation. If you go out and involve your manager and reveal some behind the scenes actions that weren't announced already and they weren't true, it's pretty obvious who would be in trouble then. Yes because justice is always served 100% accurately and people always play by the rules. HA What? At the very least you should admit that Fnatic cares about its own reputation and so does TT1. If TT1 ruins Fnatic's reputation whether he is right or not, he will get in trouble. Of course Fnatic cares about their reputation, but then Fnatic hasn't put any official statement out about verbal agreements between it's players so it's reputation is not in question.
lol, I'm not sure if you are serious. Whether or not Fnatic has put out an official statement doesn't affect the people that form opinions about them. If TT1 turns out to be lying, then a Fnatic player just falsely stated the motives of his organization on top of being a horrible representative as an individual. If TT1 turned out to be lying, then he would 100% get kicked from the team. If TT1 is willing risk his job over "bad blood", then he is crazy.
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On September 02 2011 15:34 Kaitlin wrote:
I just watched the 3 matches between BratOK and Stephano. The series was obviously a joke, but the third game was an epic failure of e-sports. BratOK Battlecruiser rushed, and Stephano proxy hatched to BratOK's natural, like he was doing a Funday Monday. BratOK killed off a bunch of Zerg units, and retreated his BC which was only down to about 60% health to "repair", but really giving Zerg time to recover as he could have easily wiped him out. He then got a second BC out, pushed to his natural occupied by Stephano and the following convo ensued:
BratOK: gg
BratOK: gl
Stephano: NO
BratOK has left the game.
Now, watching that on Youtube, it was quite funny, but I knew what I was expecting from this thread. If I was a spectator spending my afternoon to see some good Starcraft 2 play, I'd be pretty disappointed with the series. Before watching this, I was kind of thinking that throwing games to make the path forward easier was strategic and I didn't have a problem with it. I've changed my mind, and also lost respect for BratOK. Not so much Stephano because I didn't know who he was before watching.
I now expect players to try to win, no matter who they face in the future. It's a fucking tournament. It's probably a problem with the organizers and maybe a system where they didn't know who they would face, if possible, would have been better. But if I was the event organizer or a sponsor, that series was an embarrassing and I would take action to make sure it didn't happen in the future.
I remember watching this live. If it wasn't for Total Biscut and dApollos EPIC commentating of that joke I woulda rage quite the stream. I haven't laughed that much in a stream in along time
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It's pretty simple IMO. If you know of certain players that has a practice of not giving their all in their games just because they've agreed to splitting the prize pool before hand, then just stop supporting them entirely. Don't watch their games. Don't cheer for them. It's that simple. I'd imagine it would be pretty difficult to collude in this fashion unless you're looking at teammates being in the finals.
Splitting the prize pool isn't principally wrong at all. I doubt any of you guys would object if Losira and Nestea made an agreement before the finals of the GSL which states that the winner has to buy the loser 30 bottles of beer after.
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I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake.
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On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake.
so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON?
what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off?
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On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off?
How bout we just don't match fix or win split or whatever you wanna call it to begin with. Sounds ok to me.
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On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off?
Don't even bother. No point arguing with him. I just love the hypocrites in this thread who claim to be all about game integrity and honor but see nothing wrong with someone backing out on their word.
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As long as the outcome of the match isn't predetermined, it's fine. People can do whatever the hell they want with their money, and rightfully so. If they want to hedge their bets to lower their downsides, so be it. Many of these players' living depends on money won from tournaments.
I understand concerns about about the possibility of players simply not trying, but I think that's (a) unlikely, and (b) irrelevant. Firstly, every player wants to get as many tournament wins as possible. Their successes directly affect their reputation and future income. Secondly, prize money is one of millions of factors that affect how much/little players prepare for a match. There are plenty of players who don't do shit to prepare for matches with a lot on the line, and there are plenty of players who work their asses off to win matches worth nothing. I don't think we should go around making anything that (potentially) decreases motivation illegal. Are we going to make laws that stipulate every tournament has to have a $100k prize pool, because anything less decreases motivation?
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On September 02 2011 16:07 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off? Don't even bother. No point arguing with him. I just love the hypocrites in this thread who claim to be all about game integrity and honor but see nothing wrong with someone backing out on their word.
See we have this standing problem that we only have TT1's statement on it and a post by Xeris based on something TT1 said to him. How do we even know their was an agreement backed out of?
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IMO There is nothing that can or should be done about players on the same team sharing tournament prize winnings. To me, this is like asking if its wrong for Fenix to give TT1 $2500 of his winnings. Of course he can, he won. The fact that two members of the same team can make it to finals is the problem, and that can't be prevented. They will have a certain loyalty to each other which contradicts the competitive nature of the game, because it is an individual event with "teams."
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On September 02 2011 16:07 Courthead wrote:
As long as the outcome of the match isn't predetermined, it's fine. People can do whatever the hell they want with their money, and rightfully so. If they want to hedge their bets to lower their downsides, so be it. Many of these players' living depends on money won from tournaments.
I understand concerns about about the possibility of players simply not trying, but I think that's (a) unlikely, and (b) irrelevant. Firstly, every player wants to get as many tournament wins as possible. Their successes directly affect their reputation and future income. Secondly, prize money is one of millions of factors that affect how much/little players prepare for a match. There are plenty of players who don't do shit to prepare for matches with a lot on the line, and there are plenty of players who work their asses off to win matches worth nothing. I don't think we should go around making anything that (potentially) decreases motivation illegal. Are we going to make laws that stipulate every tournament has to have a $100k prize pool, because anything less decreases motivation?
Not only that, but when there is more money on the line players may even play worse. Maybe due to nerves or whatnot. They may make more mistakes than they would otherwise from anxiety.
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I think Fenix would defend himself if this were not the case.
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On September 02 2011 16:09 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:07 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off? Don't even bother. No point arguing with him. I just love the hypocrites in this thread who claim to be all about game integrity and honor but see nothing wrong with someone backing out on their word. See we have this standing problem that we only have TT1's statement on it and a post by Xeris based on something TT1 said to him. How do we even know their was an agreement backed out of?
are you implying there's some kind of conspiracy going on where TT1 and Xeris would have made that agreement up then blaming fenix for not holding his end of the deal just so they could kick him out of fnatic
which scenario do you think is more likely
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On September 02 2011 16:07 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off? Don't even bother. No point arguing with him. I just love the hypocrites in this thread who claim to be all about game integrity and honor but see nothing wrong with someone backing out on their word.
Splitting the winnings of a match and backing out of the deal to split the winnings of a match can BOTH be bad.
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On September 02 2011 16:05 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off? How bout we just don't match fix or win split or whatever you wanna call it to begin with. Sounds ok to me.
If you're so unhappy about it, then just quit watching professional SC2, as you said you would before.
I kind of wish Rekrul would show up and give us a dose of reality, as per usual. He usually flocks to drama like this. Where is he, dammit?
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On September 02 2011 16:11 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:09 Orcasgt24 wrote:On September 02 2011 16:07 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off? Don't even bother. No point arguing with him. I just love the hypocrites in this thread who claim to be all about game integrity and honor but see nothing wrong with someone backing out on their word. See we have this standing problem that we only have TT1's statement on it and a post by Xeris based on something TT1 said to him. How do we even know their was an agreement backed out of? are you implying there's some kind of conspiracy going on where TT1 and Xeris would have made that agreement up then blaming fenix for not holding his end of the deal just so they could kick him out of fnatic which scenario do you think is more likely
No he is implying that TT1 just said that to Xeris and Xseris was none the wiser. Which is probably not what happened but there ya go.
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On September 02 2011 16:13 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:05 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off? How bout we just don't match fix or win split or whatever you wanna call it to begin with. Sounds ok to me. If you're so unhappy about it, then just quit watching professional SC2, as you said you would before. I kind of wish Rekrul would show up and give us a dose of reality, as per usual. He usually flocks to drama like this. Where is he, dammit?
When teammates are involved yeah I prob won't. And it'll color the rest of my viewing experience from here on out until someone puts there foot down on it.
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On September 02 2011 16:12 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:07 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off? Don't even bother. No point arguing with him. I just love the hypocrites in this thread who claim to be all about game integrity and honor but see nothing wrong with someone backing out on their word. Splitting the winnings of a match and backing out of the deal to split the winnings of a match can BOTH be bad.
How is it bad? Are people being forced into these deals? You want to tell two people what they can do with their own money.
Gotcha.
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I mean seriously you think Xeris would just take TT1's word for it and instantly kick out fenix... be realistic there
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EPT
