EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 87
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Jimmy Raynor
902 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:40 ToastieNL wrote: FFS It's impossible to nerf the Terran tech tree or buff Protoss without messing up either TvX, PvZ or all matchups alltogether. We are having to deal with a problem integrated in the races. Terran is TOO versatile, but there is no way to nerf Terrans versatility without messing with build times, which will make Mech, Air, or both, less strong, and it will make Terran very fragile early game, because they have to live on MM only, which Zerg can deal with easily by a bust. The only way to deal with this is either very, very slight buffs to build time for Protoss. VERY SLIGHT, because PvZ is in a very fragile state atm. Or by adding a new unit for Protoss to deal with Marines, an earlier AOE unit. Which means, wait for HotS. That, or Marines 40(+15) hp and maybe a range upgrade at EBay, for 50/50/60 It's only a unit composition problem in a small timing window for Protoss, so you don't need to put in a permanent nerf, only a timing one. Either with a nerf+upgrade to regain power type deal, as conc shell received/warpgate received yonks ago, or just some timing nerfs/P buffs to try and eliminate that window. There are definitely timing nerfs/buffs you can put in that won't significantly harm TvZ/PvZ, like fiddling with immortals, ravens etc, stuff that is hardly used in those matchups. Or just temporarily nerf marines because they're probably too strong in early TvZ too anyways! | ||
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Gevna
France2332 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:37 Lyyna wrote: Omg Tank Imba >> nerf tank OMG Stim push imba >> nerf stim Omg Drop imba >> nerf medivac ZOMG THOR IMBA >> nerf thor OMGOMGOMG 111 imba - nerf marines,tanks, banshees,raven Seriously . . . this build is around for really little time, wait a bit to see if somebody can find the counter. The funniest thing is that,when somebody come and say 'i have a way to beat it: blablablabla', everybody start to bash him with 'no no, in theory it'll not work,you noob' Please.... Stop with this. This build exists since beta. And it has always been an impossible build to hold off. For exemple, look MLG Dallas's final where Jinro win against TT1, last game was a 1-1-1. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 23 2011 13:13 Supamang wrote: Zerg player here, just looking for a clarification. Is 1/1/1 actually an all-in? If it is stopped or if the Terran is forced to pull back, is he pretty much dead? Or is it like the 2rax bunker rush where the risk vs reward is pretty disjointed? It's kind of an all in, but the funny thing is, even if you crush the terrans force, he can outproduce you with only half the workers, and most likely kill you with a 2nd push. Nothing new basically, just that when playing terran your mistakes count for nothing, while the mistake of your opponent can give you the opportunity to end the game. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4561 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:37 Lyyna wrote: Omg Tank Imba >> nerf tank OMG Stim push imba >> nerf stim Omg Drop imba >> nerf medivac ZOMG THOR IMBA >> nerf thor OMGOMGOMG 111 imba - nerf marines,tanks, banshees,raven Seriously . . . this build is around for really little time, wait a bit to see if somebody can find the counter. The funniest thing is that,when somebody come and say 'i have a way to beat it: blablablabla', everybody start to bash him with 'no no, in theory it'll not work,you noob' No, it's been around since early release. Timings have just gotten thinner as people have gotten better. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:43 Gevna wrote: Please.... Stop with this. This build exists since beta. And it has always been an impossible build to hold off. For exemple, look MLG Dallas's final where Jinro win against TT1, last game was a 1-1-1. As pointed 1000 times on this thread, this version (marine/tank/raven/banshee and all variations) is popular since a few weeks/months | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:37 Lyyna wrote: Omg Tank Imba >> nerf tank OMG Stim push imba >> nerf stim Omg Drop imba >> nerf medivac ZOMG THOR IMBA >> nerf thor OMGOMGOMG 111 imba - nerf marines,tanks, banshees,raven Seriously . . . this build is around for really little time, wait a bit to see if somebody can find the counter. The funniest thing is that,when somebody come and say 'i have a way to beat it: blablablabla', everybody start to bash him with 'no no, in theory it'll not work,you noob' You can defend 1-1-1 build. Ok. Now post replay vs korean pros. Seriously I don't get it. I'm never going to believe that someone can defend that unless he posts results vs really high level players. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:37 Lyyna wrote: Omg Tank Imba >> nerf tank OMG Stim push imba >> nerf stim Omg Drop imba >> nerf medivac ZOMG THOR IMBA >> nerf thor OMGOMGOMG 111 imba - nerf marines,tanks, banshees,raven Seriously . . . this build is around for really little time, wait a bit to see if somebody can find the counter. The funniest thing is that,when somebody come and say 'i have a way to beat it: blablablabla', everybody start to bash him with 'no no, in theory it'll not work,you noob' Well, if it makes you feel better, I do believe the Stim nerf and the recent Thor nerf were retarded and completely unnecessary. Not entirely sure about the Tank nerf, it didn't seem necessary to me at the time, but no idea how the game would evolve with 50 damage to light tanks. Medivac nerf, however, was very good. Drops should have a risk attached to them, and Medivacs with good acceleration just make them too safe for how much damage they can do. I'd actually nerf Medivac acceleration even further and buff the speed. That way a player with great control would be able to achieve awesome stuff with them, but shift-queueing drops would be a lot easier to punish. I have no idea what to nerf in order to make 1/1/1 more managable. MULE is the wrong avenue to pursue imo, too much stuff in the game is balanced around them being the way they are. A likely bandaid would be some kind of Marine nerf, like 40 baseline hp and +15 hp CS. Or maybe bringing back the range upgrade at 50/50, but with a decently long research time. All of these are extremely clunky, but I don't think you can fix the underlying problem without redesigning Protoss and Terran completely. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:45 Lyyna wrote: As pointed 1000 times on this thread, this version (marine/tank/raven/banshee and all variations) is popular since a few weeks/months Yes because Terrans realised that after so many Protoss nerfs, Blizzard have actually removed every way of stopping it. It was *always* extremely strong , but risky because a Protoss allin response could kill you. Now the risk is completely gone. It's unpunishable. All of these are extremely clunky, but I don't think you can fix the underlying problem without redesigning Protoss and Terran completely. Not completely. Just need a Protoss baneling like MC said  This build is all about abusing the lack of early Protoss aoe. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:42 Jimmy Raynor wrote: Why weren't people defending MVP's words so much when he said Terran is the weakest race? Probably because it takes a lot more to admit your race is Overpowered than Underpowered | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
Nerf marines while be a terrible blow to early game, and to bio strat Nerf tank, same for mech Nerf banshees, which is one of our main harass units. . . There's too much things involved in 1-1-1 to be able to say 'hey hey, go nerf X, it's the pillar of the build' so fast Edit : for example, lowering marines health without CS would basically destroy any early agression in TvZ, make them even weaker to early hellions in TvT Lowering their range and adding uppgrade would be terrible vs roaches, marauders, and make early stalker poke a devastating strat | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:11 ooni wrote: I don't know about you guys but I think it's way too early to call... 4Gate Problem in PvZ and some PvT from the past + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170308 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145305 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171492 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=156327 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150593 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140440 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151378 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142110 As you can see the counter to the build took ages, I mean ages.People were shouting, it's too imba, too easy to pull it off and hard to defend.Who is complaining about 4Gate in PvT and PvZ now? O_O No reason to nerf anything, just sitback and relax. LOOOOOOL 4gt was nerfed several times. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:50 Dommk wrote: Probably because it takes a lot more to admit your race is Overpowered than Underpowered It's actually the fact that it fits other peoples agenda to only quote select words of wisdom. | ||
Teiwaz
Austria158 Posts
On August 23 2011 08:31 aksfjh wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 23 2011 08:26 IVN wrote: Thats right. And as I remember the last statistics, terran are ahead of zerg and waaaaay ahead of protoss in win%. Nerfing terran is the logical choice. Only in Korea are Terrans actually dominating (or Koreans competing in foreign tournaments). Elsewhere, Terran is actually about even with everybody else. Too much of ANY nerf could completely tilt Terran to the negative end in and outside of Korea. So what? Zergs have been crushed to the ground, Protoss have been crushed to the ground - the only race that remained a nice on-top or even statistic in every MU since the release of SC2 is Terran. I really think Terran can live with being the "weakest" race for some time. I'm also sure it wouldn't even affect pro-gamers because they know how to use the immense flexibility the Terran race provides to the fullest. | ||
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Gevna
France2332 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:45 Lyyna wrote: As pointed 1000 times on this thread, this version (marine/tank/raven/banshee and all variations) is popular since a few weeks/months So if a build is totally imba, but not that popular, it's fine ? okay | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:50 Lyyna wrote: The problem with 111, is that it involves every 'important' terran units . . . Nerf marines while be a terrible blow to early game, and to bio strat Nerf tank, same for mech Nerf banshees, which is one of our main harass units. . . There's too much things involved in 1-1-1 to be able to say 'hey hey, go nerf X, it's the pillar of the build' so fast Edit : for example, lowering marines health without CS would basically destroy any early agression in TvZ, make them even weaker to early hellions in TvT Lowering their range and adding uppgrade would be terrible vs roaches, marauders, and make early stalker poke a devastating strat Main harass units? You already have reapers, medivacs, vikings, and blue flame hellions. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On August 23 2011 19:53 iamke55 wrote: Main harass units? You already have reapers, medivacs, vikings, and blue flame hellions. Reaper > super early game . . . and medivacs / vikings can not be classified as 'harass units' | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
First off I always 1gate expand vs Terran if I can help it. 1.) If you see a lot of marines at the top of the ramp and no CC (especially with a bunker) you know he is teching. Which means they have little production at the moment and can't attack. 2.) If say on Shakuras or Tal'darim they have marines at their natural ramp, then you know they expanded (or are pretending). Which means then have little production at the moment and can't attack. Do you see where I'm going with this? If they have little units at the moment it means they cant pressure you! When the Zerg knows they can't be pressured, they drone. When Protoss knows they cant be pressured, they TECH! That means if I scout 1rax Expand or 1rax into tech (factory and/or Starport) what do I get? I immediately make a robo. YES that is right I go 1gate expand into Robo. Its called using the information that is given to you, people. You need to know when you can cut corners, and when you cant. After I scout his base i get 2 more gates to make it a solid 3gate robo with an expo. Then I use the information from my observer to counter the Terran play style. You will easily have the time and resources to be on 5+ gates and a robo to crush this all-in. Just remember 2gas is all you really need and when you can get all 4 gas either make a Stargate for Phoenix or get a Robo Bay for Colosi. Its all about information, that is why we scout. Use what the Terran gives you and you will be fine. | ||
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