Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 85

On August 23 2011 16:31 Truedot wrote:


Harden shield is before upgrades are taken into account. It reduces damage to 10, upgrades further reduce it to 9 and 8 and 7. Otherwise shield ups would have absolutely no effect on them. bubble is like a cast active upgrade in the same way that corruption is a +1 upgrade to attack for all units shooting at the corrupted unit. It must be calculated after, and it is, afaik.

That was a trick of mine in gold league, to spam early immortal vs the roach rush and shield upgrade quickly and fast to stomp them even harder.

On August 23 2011 16:30 SxYSpAz wrote:

i'll be honest. that post was way too long and i didn't read it all, but i basically read the part where you said that it would be giving terran more options, and i don't know how true that is.

cause i specifically said that they should make some units cost more gas to balance that problem out cause then they would be mining gas for specific units. to put mules on gas when your not getting the more gas heavy units would just be a waste. I'm going to try to defend this too hard, cause i think there's a lot of problems that could be involved and i'm just fooling around with ideas, but i just had to address that cause i don't think it would make terran more versatile if they did it right

On August 23 2011 16:46 Officedrone wrote:
I can't wait to see the "OP build of the month" that wins in Raleigh (whichever race it happens to come from).

Then we can forget about this and move on to 85 page+ threads about that one.

On August 23 2011 16:46 Officedrone wrote:
I can't wait to see the "OP build of the month" that wins in Raleigh (whichever race it happens to come from).

Then we can forget about this and move on to 85 page+ threads about that one.

On August 23 2011 16:37 Belisarius wrote:


That's actually incorrect. Shield ups really don't have much effect on immortals at all. Neither does GS.

On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Can we just get over it already ? MC lost....did anyone consider that just maybe Puma had better micro? or that MC just made poor decisions?

Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.

Also every time I've seen a toss successfully stop 1-1-1 all in they rushed out to meet the army as it was pushing out to whittle it down, snipe tanks and/or banshees and stall it. Any push with siege tanks in it can be slowed down tremendously with pokes forcing them to siege and unsiege AND possibly blow their PDD before they get to the front of your base...

The key to beating this build is just micro and proper decision making..

Also MC was actually close to holding off the push in the first game. he had all the tanks dead and just marines in his base, but Puma's micro with those last dozen marines or so was sick good - he just cornered MC's army and didn't allow him to build up a few more units to win the battle.

IMO MC just got outplayed in those games. Instead of crying about balance people should just try play better...or at least think about an actual solution/counter.

You have to outplay your opponent to win in this game. and those who think Puma just did a build and 1-a'd across the map are ignorant or just heavily biased.

On August 23 2011 18:03 Nyast wrote:
Here's an idea to counter the build: zealots + sentries. The key is to stay hidden in the center of the map with your main army made of mostly zealots + 3/4 sentries (add a couple stalkers+obs for defense and maybe a prism), and have 3/4 sentries at home. When the Terran pushes, FF your main's ramp, and use your army to counter in his main. FF his ramp. Now his army can't enter your main, and can't come back to defend either. May not be easy to execute though, miss a FF and it's gg

On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:


You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Just like Tyler said earlier in the thread you don't need to expand super early in this matchup..It is safer and better to rush to obs first and go from there. See an early expo? drop yours it wont be that far behind...

On August 23 2011 18:09 IVN wrote:
So the terran player MVP is also biased and ignorant?

On August 23 2011 16:31 Truedot wrote:


Harden shield is before upgrades are taken into account. It reduces damage to 10, upgrades further reduce it to 9 and 8 and 7. Otherwise shield ups would have absolutely no effect on them. bubble is like a cast active upgrade in the same way that corruption is a +1 upgrade to attack for all units shooting at the corrupted unit. It must be calculated after, and it is, afaik.

That was a trick of mine in gold league, to spam early immortal vs the roach rush and shield upgrade quickly and fast to stomp them even harder.

'Shield upgrades take effect before Hardened Shield such that the damage cap remains at 10. Guardian Shield takes effect after Hardened Shield reducing any damage above 10 to 8.'

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Hardened_Shield

On August 23 2011 14:11 ooni wrote:
I don't know about you guys but I think it's way too early to call...

4Gate Problem in PvZ and some PvT from the past
+ Show Spoiler +

As you can see the counter to the build took ages, I mean ages.People were shouting, it's too imba, too easy to pull it off and hard to defend.Who is complaining about 4Gate in PvT and PvZ now? O_O

No reason to nerf anything, just sitback and relax.

On August 23 2011 16:41 Truedot wrote:


the units cost a little more. that doesn't balance it out. Because they're allowed a lot more variation. you can't make the units cost so much more, because it will throw the whole system of terran out of whack, and they'll suck really bad. so how much more they will cost will be too limited. This limitation will then simply inflate the versatility of terran because they can build any variation of any unit comp that will reduce the counter to coin flipping moreso than it is now.

I'll list off how now, since I suppose it does deserve some evidential explanation.

Blue Flame Hellion.

Imagine getting mules to fast mine gas and getting blue flame hellion a full minute sooner. its a much more versatile build because
Reactor hellion into blue flame.
Reactor hellion into marine hellion.
reactor hellion into hellion banshee
reactor hellion into hellion tank marine
blue flame hellion into banshee
blue flame hellion into marine tank
blue flame hellion into mass blue flame hellion.

Look at all those options.
With mule gas:
Blue flame hellion 1 minute sooner into banshee 2 minute sooner.
hellion into mass tank hellion
hellion into mass marauder
mass marauder 1 minute earlier
7 marauder rush at 5 (lol? zergs getting outdone now, it'll more likely be more marauders, but I put 7 just to reference the supposed no skill push of zerg)

Why? because you can do a fast gas with a mule, and then just pump minerals with further mules. Or you can build 1 refinery, and fast gas with a single mule, pumping all SCVs onto minerals and getting more gas than a double gas with a single unit.

These are merely some examples of how badly allowing more mule versatility would F the game up.

Gas is the lowest common denominator, it is the emergent complexity principle. The thing most critical for a powerful war army being limited strictly and in very small supply.
terran already gets away with oversaturation mining via mules, thus breaking this rule for minerals. Imagine mules that can powermine a refinery solo, or god forbid, oversaturated refineries with mules (shudder).

its not a good idea. Im sorry.

On August 23 2011 18:42 Grr Arr Rawr wrote:
Warpgate was patched to try to change the way PvP worked - NOT as a balance for PvZ/PvT.