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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
Hm I remember T saying Reapers are not OP, the game "evolves, Z must experiment like we do with 10000+ openings available, Z has to learn to play, T are just much better players, Zerg are just such a cry babies, Z will figure it out etc.
Ofcourse P will be buffed everyone who has a brain understand why.
TvP Korea is lsomething like 60+% winrate that is not ok if you are a progamer.
If P dont scout 1-1-1 it is probleby over. If T fails they can recover well enough. The reward is hugh the risk minimal.
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On August 23 2011 11:28 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:11 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting. How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple? Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward. Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line. Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above. On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs. Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees. Okay, let me give you a specific example of how the OP could be flawed. Say someone is going 1-gate robo expand and scouts the version of 1-1-1 that puma was doing (heavy marine style). If the protoss utilizes the fact that he got robo tech before expand, he will immediately rush up to colossus. That would be the correct response. The incorrect response would be to get more gates and go for a Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp. I'm simply stating that MC had an improper follow up. You may say that he did not have enough time to get colossus; however, with a safe 1-gate robo expand... he would have enough time. The heavier tank/lower marine version is what you pull the Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp out for.
Ohhhh man, you havent even read the thread. THis was discussed to death. And the conclusion is: you can only get 1 (!!!) colossus without range in time for this push.
Now, 1 colossus agains something 25 marines, 2 or 3 tanks and 2 or 3 banshees. You see the problem? And the fast colossus eats up so much gas, that you will barely have any stalkers.
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Sorry all, one moment -
On August 23 2011 18:50 OscarN wrote:
I saw this build a while back... it was a game terran vs Genius, and genius held it off so soundly . but i got the replay copied the build and pretty much went on a 100-0 win streak vs protoss.... but mind u this is diamond and i can adept real well to new builds
You're from Cape Verde? I celebrated your country's, Venezuela's and Algeria's independence this year with a watermelon sherbert because it was a day after my country's independence day! Did you know Armenia adopted its constitution and the first Indonesian presidential election was also held on July 5th?! It's such an amazing day!
Okay carry on with the discussion.
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On August 23 2011 12:07 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 12:01 Atasu wrote:
Okay so people keep saying that the 1/1/1 build is beatable as per the MC vs Puma game 1, however after watching that replay, MC had nearly PERFECT micro in holding off the first engagement, it was superb. Now not everyone has such amazing micro against an a move all in, and why should protoss be forced to even have perfect micro...we all know that is ludicrous. People need to stop arguing against the fact that it is not imbalanced, the fact of the matter is it is, and the koreans (who this community loves to provide as the final trump all evidence yet in this case are disregarding it at times) even consider it imbalanced, yet we have people here who do not devote their lives to SC2 making very ignorant statements and assumptions about it being just another allin. Although I always thought this build was hard to beat as I lost to it pretty much every time i encountered it (before its usage spread like wildfire). In the end people watch that game's replay, on MC's camera view, you'll be amazed what MC did to hold the first instance off.
On a side note, people are making arguments about protoss having higher initial army values, protoss has mostly gas heavy units that cannot be replenished as is the case with marines, so please shut up about that. No offense, but can you shut up about it being imbalanced and read the posts that I made completely refuting everything you just said. MC had the completely wrong unit composition for that particular version of the 1-1-1 all-in. His micro is irrelevant against the heavy marine/ low tank count of Puma.
MVP also said that this build is imbalanced. In fact he went that far as to suggest, that players who use it should be disqualified.
And the last time I checked MVP > you.
And since MVP is a terran player, there is no motivation for him lie, because his race would potentially get nerfed, and that is not in his interest. SO, he must firmly believe that this build is imbalanced.
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On August 23 2011 19:21 IVN wrote:
MVP also said that this build is imbalanced. In fact he went that far as to suggest, that players who use it should be disqualified.
And the last time I checked MVP > you.
And since MVP is a terran player, there is no motivation for him lie, because his race would potentially get nerfed, and that is not in his interest. SO, he must firmly believe that this build is imbalanced.
Pros have been proven to be wrong countless of times, even when not biased, so that's not an argument.
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On August 23 2011 19:21 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 12:07 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 12:01 Atasu wrote:
Okay so people keep saying that the 1/1/1 build is beatable as per the MC vs Puma game 1, however after watching that replay, MC had nearly PERFECT micro in holding off the first engagement, it was superb. Now not everyone has such amazing micro against an a move all in, and why should protoss be forced to even have perfect micro...we all know that is ludicrous. People need to stop arguing against the fact that it is not imbalanced, the fact of the matter is it is, and the koreans (who this community loves to provide as the final trump all evidence yet in this case are disregarding it at times) even consider it imbalanced, yet we have people here who do not devote their lives to SC2 making very ignorant statements and assumptions about it being just another allin. Although I always thought this build was hard to beat as I lost to it pretty much every time i encountered it (before its usage spread like wildfire). In the end people watch that game's replay, on MC's camera view, you'll be amazed what MC did to hold the first instance off.
On a side note, people are making arguments about protoss having higher initial army values, protoss has mostly gas heavy units that cannot be replenished as is the case with marines, so please shut up about that. No offense, but can you shut up about it being imbalanced and read the posts that I made completely refuting everything you just said. MC had the completely wrong unit composition for that particular version of the 1-1-1 all-in. His micro is irrelevant against the heavy marine/ low tank count of Puma. MVP also said that this build is imbalanced. In fact he went that far as to suggest, that players who use it should be disqualified. And the last time I checked MVP > you. And since MVP is a terran player, there is no motivation for him lie, because his race would potentially get nerfed, and that is not in his interest. SO, he must firmly believe that this build is imbalanced.
MVP also said terran is the weakest race, i guess then blizzard should buff terran,nerf zerg and protoss and tournaments shouldn't allow 1/1/1.
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On August 23 2011 16:25 bovineblitz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:12 Truedot wrote:On August 23 2011 16:04 Penecks wrote:
Could Protoss in theory do their own "1/1/1" (Gate-robo-stargate) or something similar to crank out some phoenix and maybe immortals and then mostly zealots? No idea if that's viable at all, and of course would put you behind if he was just expanding behind a reactored rax or something... what like sentry immortal phoenix zealot? could work..u want the phoenix for light damage and AA obviously, the immortals and zealots have the firepower to quickly take out marines and tanks. the sentry is there for the -2 damage bubble, keeping immortal alive that much longer vs rines. the immortal is a priority target due to its damage and fire rate, but banshee cant kill it quickly. The phoenix are priority for the marines, so you wont be taking hits on immortal from marines if they want to attack it. the zealots and immortals are thus free from being fired on by marines. the phoenix move fast enough (and lamely, or awesomely, depending on your view, fire while shooting), so can kite the marines around the immortallot ball while still killing the banshee, and the banshee can't cause greater than 10 damage to the immortal, and it does 8 damage as long as that bubble is up.^Theorycraft. As an aside, people don't really regard shield ups well. If your game strategy involves using immortals and archons, shield ups are completely scary for zerg. oh the zerganity! I'm pretty sure the banshee would still do 10 damage, as it'd be 24-4=20 --> hardened shield = 10. I don't think the guardian shield would activate after the hardened shield.
This is wrong, Banshees do 20 damage to immortals, 16 if Guardian Shield is up. Even then, the idea of a Protoss 1/1/1 is flawed, you'll have 3-4 Phoenix and 2-3 immortals, both of which have to run into marine range to attack.
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On August 23 2011 19:24 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 19:21 IVN wrote:
MVP also said that this build is imbalanced. In fact he went that far as to suggest, that players who use it should be disqualified.
And the last time I checked MVP > you.
And since MVP is a terran player, there is no motivation for him lie, because his race would potentially get nerfed, and that is not in his interest. SO, he must firmly believe that this build is imbalanced. Pros have been proven to be wrong countless of times, even when not biased, so that's not an argument.
But a pro who reckons something his own race uses as imbalanced is an exception.
The only equal case I can think of is Artosis saying that the DeathBall is broken on Imbalanced, which was found out to be true.
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On August 23 2011 12:40 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 12:36 ak1knight wrote:On August 23 2011 12:28 Astro-Penguin wrote:
This is nothing new though, people always love being able to hop on imbalance bandwagons in order to blame their own struggles with the game. Except many here don't play or at least not seriously. I don't like the 1/1/1 because it seems unfair to pro toss players who are trying to make a living and it undermines the results of tournaments. That's why people are quoting pro players, because they are the ones most affected. Key word in your post... SEEMS. It SEEMS unfair, so don't you think we should give it time instead of nerfing it?
No! I think it should be nerfed right away.
Why should protoss players be required to "figure it out", when all the bitching of the terrans resulted in immediate nerfs, when a protoss push or all in was considered strong?
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On August 23 2011 19:29 Binabik wrote:
But a pro who reckons something his own race uses as imbalanced is an exception.
No, it's the exact same thing. Just because he thinks of something it doesn't have to be right, simple as.
Come up with arguments of your own, or actually quote his arguments. Just saying something is so because X said so is not an argument.
On August 23 2011 19:31 IVN wrote:Why should protoss players be required to "figure it out", when all the bitching of the terrans resulted in immediate nerfs, when a protoss push or all in was considered strong?
Cry the hell more.
Also what protoss pushes got instanerfed?
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On August 23 2011 19:32 Dalavita wrote:
Also what protoss pushes got instanerfed?
3gate void ray got nerfed a couple of weeks after Genius killed Makaprime with it. Maka complained about it and it promptly got nerfed into oblivion.
That was one of the ways of punishing a greedy 1/1/1 incidentally. Along with the 4gate nerfs, there is now no way to kill a Terran who simply makes a bunker and reactored marines.
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On August 23 2011 19:32 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 19:29 Binabik wrote:
But a pro who reckons something his own race uses as imbalanced is an exception. No, it's the exact same thing. Just because he thinks of something it doesn't have to be right, simple as. Come up with arguments of your own, or actually quote his arguments. Just saying something is so because X said so is not an argument. Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 19:31 IVN wrote:Why should protoss players be required to "figure it out", when all the bitching of the terrans resulted in immediate nerfs, when a protoss push or all in was considered strong? Cry the hell more. Also what protoss pushes got instanerfed?
Maka complained about voidrays to david kim, and showed that voidray allins were supposedly unstoppable, and it got nerfed extremely quickly.
Warpin storms was probably the biggest kneejerk reaction. Going from warpin storms to removing KA was extremely harsh.
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Something that I don't understand about pros, why they don't bring all their SCV when doing 1/1/1? 1/1/1 is usually barely held by protoss with additional warpins. Adding 10 more SCV to the push would help a lot.
I do this all the time. Sometimes I don't even siege my tanks, just put PPD and a-move. SCVs are quite good at absorbing stalker/zealot damage, giving enough time to kill main protoss army.
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Omg Tank Imba >> nerf tank
OMG Stim push imba >> nerf stim
Omg Drop imba >> nerf medivac
ZOMG THOR IMBA >> nerf thor
OMGOMGOMG 111 imba - nerf marines,tanks, banshees,raven
Seriously . . . this build is around for really little time, wait a bit to see if somebody can find the counter.
The funniest thing is that,when somebody come and say 'i have a way to beat it: blablablabla', everybody start to bash him with 'no no, in theory it'll not work,you noob'
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Keeping the SCVs let you build up an equally strong, or even stronger, second push. Think of it as 2 pushes with a 90% success rate vs 1 push with just a slightly higher success rate. Or you could transition into a macro game if the first push is only middling success. It's never a complete failure, so this is the "safe" choice.
It is normal to send some though, you don't need all of them and if the Protoss is basecamping you want to start bunkers.
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On August 23 2011 19:36 Amui wrote:
Warpin storms was probably the biggest kneejerk reaction. Going from warpin storms to removing KA was extremely harsh.
I don't remember the void ray build, so I can't comment on that, but changing warpin storms was not a kneejerk reaction...
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FFS It's impossible to nerf the Terran tech tree or buff Protoss without messing up either TvX, PvZ or all matchups alltogether.
We are having to deal with a problem integrated in the races. Terran is TOO versatile, but there is no way to nerf Terrans versatility without messing with build times, which will make Mech, Air, or both, less strong, and it will make Terran very fragile early game, because they have to live on MM only, which Zerg can deal with easily by a bust.
The only way to deal with this is either very, very slight buffs to build time for Protoss. VERY SLIGHT, because PvZ is in a very fragile state atm. Or by adding a new unit for Protoss to deal with Marines, an earlier AOE unit. Which means, wait for HotS.
That, or Marines 40(+15) hp and maybe a range upgrade at EBay, for 50/50/60
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On August 23 2011 19:37 Lyyna wrote:
Omg Tank Imba >> nerf tank
OMG Stim push imba >> nerf stim
Omg Drop imba >> nerf medivac
ZOMG THOR IMBA >> nerf thor
OMGOMGOMG 111 imba - nerf marines,tanks, banshees,raven
Seriously . . . this build is around for really little time, wait a bit to see if somebody can find the counter.
The funniest thing is that,when somebody come and say 'i have a way to beat it: blablablabla', everybody start to bash him with 'no no, in theory it'll not work,you noob'
So, show them why it actually does work? Seriously, you don't deserve any more respect for this...
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EPT
