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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 15:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 15:28 farnham wrote:On August 23 2011 15:22 TrickyGilligan wrote:On August 23 2011 15:13 farnham wrote:
how about carriers
the typical marine , tank, banshee and raven mix seems to be quite vulnerable to it
only marines can shoot air and carriers have far superior range
vikings are only viable in larger numbers
a decent ground army to hold off marines and a few carriers could be quite good against 111 Marines, even without stim, kill interceptors almost instantly. The 1/1/1 and 3/1/1 both use lots and lots of marines. Hence, Carriers aren't really that great. If they do some weird variation that uses hellions for some reason, I can see it working, but it's just not not really viable with mass marines. carriers have superior range and marines either have to shoot interceptors (which is good since they are rebuild pretty fast) or attack the carriers directly in which case the stalkers or zealots can kill them since they are prob out of tank range carriers can also pick up single banshees and ravens if they are not protected well If (and he will, trust me, he will) he scouts you making carriers, he'll stop making banshees/tanks and just make marines/vikings and then just straight up kill you. If you somehow miraculously get 5-6 carriers out before you are dead on just one base, he's probably expanded by now and is about to walk over you. If you expanded, you won't have very many carriers and you will get walked over. Seriously, those things take FOREVER to build.
^^
Also, carriers' "range" is a lie, because the interceptors are what do the damage, and they not only have to fly into marine range to fire, they have to engage in a protracted orgy over the 'rine ball while it shoots at them. Also, while they rebuild "pretty fast," they die infinitely faster.
As for carriers picking off stray banshees and ravens, carriers move so slowly compared to either of those units that there's no way you'll be able to engineer that situation consistently.
And all of that is assuming the T blindly goes ahead with the standard 3/1/1. If he adds cloak, all your probes instantly die. If he does anything else, like expand, you're light years behind.
I can't believe I've used three whole posts to explain why carriers are bad against anything that involves mass 'rine. And if I'm wrong and the dude who said he'd test it comes back and declares carrier rushing God's gift to Protoss, I won't even mind extracting my foot from my larynx.
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The person saying he'd have 5-6 carriers in 9 minutes was obviously joking, unless he somehow has a stargate, fleet beacon, and fully saturated mineral line when the game starts.
On August 23 2011 15:33 LicH. wrote:
just saw perfect defend rainbow's 1-1-1 on stream.
So the build does not win every single game ever? Interesting...
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United States7483 Posts
I'm curious, and I may have missed it somewhere, but how does zealot/archon (you can get a few archons out in time after a fast expo, probably not storm but I think you can get some archons) with charge do against this?
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why am i being warned just for posting an idea
i wasnt trolling just trying to brainstorm
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On August 23 2011 15:45 Whitewing wrote:
I'm curious, and I may have missed it somewhere, but how does zealot/archon (you can get a few archons out in time after a fast expo, probably not storm but I think you can get some archons) with charge do against this?
Dies horribly to cloakshees, in my experience. And still loses to the straight-up push a lot of the time as well, as it's hard to get enough gas for more than a couple archons, especially if you get charge.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 23 2011 15:47 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 15:45 Whitewing wrote:
I'm curious, and I may have missed it somewhere, but how does zealot/archon (you can get a few archons out in time after a fast expo, probably not storm but I think you can get some archons) with charge do against this? Dies horribly to cloakshees, in my experience. And still loses to the straight-up push a lot of the time as well, as it's hard to get enough gas for more than a couple archons, especially if you get charge.
Well, you'd have to get a cannon or two for detection, but I would think if you refined it, it'd have a decent chance of holding off the push, and it has the advantage of being the easiest of all protoss armies to replenish, so you could hold additional waves.
It's a question of if it's possible to refine it sufficiently to consistently hold against the initial push though. It might also be possible to get some feedbacks off on some banshees or ravens if you micro well too.
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On August 23 2011 13:01 TimeSpiral wrote:
This thread is going nowhere fast.
Pros are just people, guys. Yes, they are much, much better than we are at this game, but their opinions are not infallible. In this scene the pros are often young kids, young adults, and sometimes grown men. I would agree that their opinions are more relevant in many ways, because they play the game 8 hours per day, which is just an insane amount of Starcraft 2, but they are just people. There are plenty of examples of pros putting their foot's in their mouths on balance issues.
You cannot just say things like, "thousands of protosses are getting raped by the 111 all-in, don't you think they'd have figured it out by now?"
No. Just because they are pro, and awesome, does not mean they should instantly figured out every situation. A strategy game against other people as obsessed as you should be a difficult thing.
If it comes down to the build being impossible to beat, or way too demanding to beat, then Blizzard will most certainly nerf Terran again. You know how Blizzard loves to nerf Terran!
And you can be sure we all appreciate you attempting to keep pace with the thread. its their JOB to figure it out. they dont figure it out, they don't eat.
Terrans keep getting nerfed because since beta they had HUGE utility and capabilities, and continue to do so even after losing their 60 hp marine, among other nerfs. No other race has as much capability. AFAIK, there is only 1 proper response from every other race vs the ubiquitous medivac-marine mineral drop harass. All other options are sub-optimal and lead to your death. Thats a lot of power for a player of any skill level to have.
When it comes down to it, we're looking at it from the wrong angle. Instead of saying "Oh, we all have trouble with 1-1-1", maybe we should say "when I used 1-1-1 perfectly, X is what gave me some problems, maybe there's something in that vein that could be optimized (build order talk again) to give me even bigger problems with X being now X(2) since optimization".
Thats what people need to look for, what gives 1-1-1 trouble when they try it. ofc, possibly the only thing is being as unpredictable and coin flippy as 1-1-1, but still there's got to be something. if there isn't its clearly unbalanced.
I hate how cheesy marines are anyway. they steamroll anything without AoE, and we all know it. 50 minerals for steamroll power. yea..
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On August 23 2011 15:40 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 15:31 Whitewing wrote:On August 23 2011 15:28 farnham wrote:On August 23 2011 15:22 TrickyGilligan wrote:On August 23 2011 15:13 farnham wrote:
how about carriers
the typical marine , tank, banshee and raven mix seems to be quite vulnerable to it
only marines can shoot air and carriers have far superior range
vikings are only viable in larger numbers
a decent ground army to hold off marines and a few carriers could be quite good against 111 Marines, even without stim, kill interceptors almost instantly. The 1/1/1 and 3/1/1 both use lots and lots of marines. Hence, Carriers aren't really that great. If they do some weird variation that uses hellions for some reason, I can see it working, but it's just not not really viable with mass marines. carriers have superior range and marines either have to shoot interceptors (which is good since they are rebuild pretty fast) or attack the carriers directly in which case the stalkers or zealots can kill them since they are prob out of tank range carriers can also pick up single banshees and ravens if they are not protected well If (and he will, trust me, he will) he scouts you making carriers, he'll stop making banshees/tanks and just make marines/vikings and then just straight up kill you. If you somehow miraculously get 5-6 carriers out before you are dead on just one base, he's probably expanded by now and is about to walk over you. If you expanded, you won't have very many carriers and you will get walked over. Seriously, those things take FOREVER to build. ^^ Also, carriers' "range" is a lie, because the interceptors are what do the damage, and they not only have to fly into marine range to fire, they have to engage in a protracted orgy over the 'rine ball while it shoots at them. Also, while they rebuild "pretty fast," they die infinitely faster. As for carriers picking off stray banshees and ravens, carriers move so slowly compared to either of those units that there's no way you'll be able to engineer that situation consistently. And all of that is assuming the T blindly goes ahead with the standard 3/1/1. If he adds cloak, all your probes instantly die. If he does anything else, like expand, you're light years behind. I can't believe I've used three whole posts to explain why carriers are bad against anything that involves mass 'rine. And if I'm wrong and the dude who said he'd test it comes back and declares carrier rushing God's gift to Protoss, I won't even mind extracting my foot from my larynx.
all im saying is that if the usual units dont seem to work
maybe there is a way with exotic units
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On August 23 2011 15:45 Whitewing wrote:
I'm curious, and I may have missed it somewhere, but how does zealot/archon (you can get a few archons out in time after a fast expo, probably not storm but I think you can get some archons) with charge do against this?
Archons aren't really that great in this situation for their cost to tech to and create. Getting charge + a good number of zealots alone is very difficult by the time this hits, and if the terran goes a higher banshee count (cloak or no) you have nothing to shoots up besides archons.
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Could Protoss in theory do their own "1/1/1" (Gate-robo-stargate) or something similar to crank out some phoenix and maybe immortals and then mostly zealots? No idea if that's viable at all, and of course would put you behind if he was just expanding behind a reactored rax or something...
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I think no matter how you choose to counter this build it will always be a crap shoot based on whatever limited scouting information you can get. No different from a zerg player seeing a barracks and 2 depots and maybe a marine or 2 guarding a T entrance.
The strength of the build will always be greater then any amount of units you can get out so you'll have to counter what they do perfectly. This basically because a mule is free chrono boost doesn't give you anything for free just reduces time. Thusly terran will alway shave more 'stuff' for this push then you can get.
So you'll have to always use superior positioning and the right unit composition for what variation of the 1/1/1 they go.
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this is more fun theory crafting and i wouldn't be surprised if there's huge problems involved.
But wouldn't it be cool if mules could mine gas, and then make some terran units like banshees ravens or ghost cost more gas. So they'd be saccing some mineral income from the mule to get a certain comp. It would be somewhat like the chrono boost in the sense that they would actually have to decide where to use the mule.
It could also help 1/1/1 because you couldn't afford all those gas heavy units and marines at the same time. Terran would have significant more risk with staying on one base... which they need, and it would require a new aspect in terran decision making. just a thought
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On August 23 2011 16:04 Penecks wrote:
Could Protoss in theory do their own "1/1/1" (Gate-robo-stargate) or something similar to crank out some phoenix and maybe immortals and then mostly zealots? No idea if that's viable at all, and of course would put you behind if he was just expanding behind a reactored rax or something...
what like sentry immortal phoenix zealot? could work..u want the phoenix for light damage and AA obviously, the immortals and zealots have the firepower to quickly take out marines and tanks. the sentry is there for the -2 damage bubble, keeping immortal alive that much longer vs rines. the immortal is a priority target due to its damage and fire rate, but banshee cant kill it quickly. The phoenix are priority for the marines, so you wont be taking hits on immortal from marines if they want to attack it. the zealots and immortals are thus free from being fired on by marines. the phoenix move fast enough (and lamely, or awesomely, depending on your view, fire while shooting), so can kite the marines around the immortallot ball while still killing the banshee, and the banshee can't cause greater than 10 damage to the immortal, and it does 8 damage as long as that bubble is up.
^Theorycraft.
As an aside, people don't really regard shield ups well. If your game strategy involves using immortals and archons, shield ups are completely scary for zerg. oh the zerganity!
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Are people seriously suggesting carriers now to stop 1-1-1? Oh well thread was interesting first 25 pp but is going off the deep end now.
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On August 23 2011 16:12 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:04 Penecks wrote:
Could Protoss in theory do their own "1/1/1" (Gate-robo-stargate) or something similar to crank out some phoenix and maybe immortals and then mostly zealots? No idea if that's viable at all, and of course would put you behind if he was just expanding behind a reactored rax or something... what like sentry immortal phoenix zealot? could work..u want the phoenix for light damage and AA obviously, the immortals and zealots have the firepower to quickly take out marines and tanks. the sentry is there for the -2 damage bubble, keeping immortal alive that much longer vs rines. the immortal is a priority target due to its damage and fire rate, but banshee cant kill it quickly. The phoenix are priority for the marines, so you wont be taking hits on immortal from marines if they want to attack it. the zealots and immortals are thus free from being fired on by marines. the phoenix move fast enough (and lamely, or awesomely, depending on your view, fire while shooting), so can kite the marines around the immortallot ball while still killing the banshee, and the banshee can't cause greater than 10 damage to the immortal, and it does 8 damage as long as that bubble is up. ^Theorycraft. As an aside, people don't really regard shield ups well. If your game strategy involves using immortals and archons, shield ups are completely scary for zerg. oh the zerganity!
Could be if you have enough gas, might cut hella sentries for sure, a bit vulnerable in early game if Terran wall-in and goes 3 raxes instead of this build, you never know until obs out.
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On August 23 2011 16:05 SxYSpAz wrote:
this is more fun theory crafting and i wouldn't be surprised if there's huge problems involved.
But wouldn't it be cool if mules could mine gas, and then make some terran units like banshees ravens or ghost cost more gas. So they'd be saccing some mineral income from the mule to get a certain comp. It would be somewhat like the chrono boost in the sense that they would actually have to decide where to use the mule.
It could also help 1/1/1 because you couldn't afford all those gas heavy units and marines at the same time. Terran would have significant more risk with staying on one base... which they need, and it would require a new aspect in terran decision making. just a thought
giving terrans even more unpredictability and versatility/flexibility? No, that wouldn't be cool. not at all.
A game is completely balanced when all races have an equal amount of choices that come in equal variations of hard/medium/soft counters or tactics.
take Dead or Alive 4. Great fighting game. had tons of fun with it. Noone who plays it will deny that the ninjas, specifically the ninja gaiden guy, have the most variations of moves, with moves that cant clearly be read before they execute, and a wide assortment of moves that hard counter lesser moves of their own species and other characters. The ninja gaiden is considered an SS rank character. all the other ninjas are S ranks.
Now Christie, as much fun as I enjoyed her "snake style' martial art, and how she was so maneuverable and I loved playing with her style of needing to be unpredictable and strike suddenly and evade, still tough as shit to play, because ALL of her moves are soft counters at best, unless you use an actual hold/block counter. none of her hits are hard counters, because all other characters will crush any of her attacks which have equal or less speed. She is the fastest character, but only a few of her moves are faster than the ninja basic moves, meaning that she has very limited options and tends to get crushed, and therefore countered by a basic move, a lot of the time. For this, and the fact that you actually have to yomi layer to ridiculous extremes when facing another player with a ninja character, she receives a D rating at best.
The ninjas dominated the tournaments, even though all the other characters are fun and very unique. This is what tournament rules are for, like NO NINJAS.
How does this related to an RTS? "Fighting with a large group of men under your control is no different than having one person under your control". - Sun Tzu.
On the same levels, theres hard and soft counters, change ups, yomi layers (outthinking your opponent and knowing what he'll do next), etc etc. RTS is no different from a fighting game in terms of the METAmechanics. How the fight is played out is different obviously, and picturesquely. How it plays out on the metamechanic scale is exactly the same.
Terran thus would be an SS rank. It has ridiculous loads of options over the other two races. Protoss is an A rank and Zerg is a A- rank, even for its supposed "instant remax tech switch", that as we all know, must be planned far in advance and then have a bunch of gas and minerals sat on to achieve that, which is all completely wrong because if you do that than you deserve to win anyway for the other player sucking bad enough to sit back and let you max out and THEN also float tons of resources.
And this is why your idea is bad. Sorry.
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On August 23 2011 16:12 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:04 Penecks wrote:
Could Protoss in theory do their own "1/1/1" (Gate-robo-stargate) or something similar to crank out some phoenix and maybe immortals and then mostly zealots? No idea if that's viable at all, and of course would put you behind if he was just expanding behind a reactored rax or something... what like sentry immortal phoenix zealot? could work..u want the phoenix for light damage and AA obviously, the immortals and zealots have the firepower to quickly take out marines and tanks. the sentry is there for the -2 damage bubble, keeping immortal alive that much longer vs rines. the immortal is a priority target due to its damage and fire rate, but banshee cant kill it quickly. The phoenix are priority for the marines, so you wont be taking hits on immortal from marines if they want to attack it. the zealots and immortals are thus free from being fired on by marines. the phoenix move fast enough (and lamely, or awesomely, depending on your view, fire while shooting), so can kite the marines around the immortallot ball while still killing the banshee, and the banshee can't cause greater than 10 damage to the immortal, and it does 8 damage as long as that bubble is up.^Theorycraft. As an aside, people don't really regard shield ups well. If your game strategy involves using immortals and archons, shield ups are completely scary for zerg. oh the zerganity!
I'm pretty sure the banshee would still do 10 damage, as it'd be 24-4=20 --> hardened shield = 10.
I don't think the guardian shield would activate after the hardened shield.
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On August 23 2011 16:24 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:05 SxYSpAz wrote:
this is more fun theory crafting and i wouldn't be surprised if there's huge problems involved.
But wouldn't it be cool if mules could mine gas, and then make some terran units like banshees ravens or ghost cost more gas. So they'd be saccing some mineral income from the mule to get a certain comp. It would be somewhat like the chrono boost in the sense that they would actually have to decide where to use the mule.
It could also help 1/1/1 because you couldn't afford all those gas heavy units and marines at the same time. Terran would have significant more risk with staying on one base... which they need, and it would require a new aspect in terran decision making. just a thought giving terrans even more unpredictability and versatility/flexibility? No, that wouldn't be cool. not at all. And this is why your idea is bad. Sorry.
i'll be honest. that post was way too long and i didn't read it all, but i basically read the part where you said that it would be giving terran more options, and i don't know how true that is.
cause i specifically said that they should make some units cost more gas to balance that problem out cause then they would be mining gas for specific units. to put mules on gas when your not getting the more gas heavy units would just be a waste. I'm going to try to defend this too hard, cause i think there's a lot of problems that could be involved and i'm just fooling around with ideas, but i just had to address that cause i don't think it would make terran more versatile if they did it right
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On August 23 2011 16:25 bovineblitz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:12 Truedot wrote:On August 23 2011 16:04 Penecks wrote:
Could Protoss in theory do their own "1/1/1" (Gate-robo-stargate) or something similar to crank out some phoenix and maybe immortals and then mostly zealots? No idea if that's viable at all, and of course would put you behind if he was just expanding behind a reactored rax or something... what like sentry immortal phoenix zealot? could work..u want the phoenix for light damage and AA obviously, the immortals and zealots have the firepower to quickly take out marines and tanks. the sentry is there for the -2 damage bubble, keeping immortal alive that much longer vs rines. the immortal is a priority target due to its damage and fire rate, but banshee cant kill it quickly. The phoenix are priority for the marines, so you wont be taking hits on immortal from marines if they want to attack it. the zealots and immortals are thus free from being fired on by marines. the phoenix move fast enough (and lamely, or awesomely, depending on your view, fire while shooting), so can kite the marines around the immortallot ball while still killing the banshee, and the banshee can't cause greater than 10 damage to the immortal, and it does 8 damage as long as that bubble is up.^Theorycraft. As an aside, people don't really regard shield ups well. If your game strategy involves using immortals and archons, shield ups are completely scary for zerg. oh the zerganity! I'm pretty sure the banshee would still do 10 damage, as it'd be 24-4=20 --> hardened shield = 10. I don't think the guardian shield would activate after the hardened shield.
Harden shield is before upgrades are taken into account. It reduces damage to 10, upgrades further reduce it to 9 and 8 and 7. Otherwise shield ups would have absolutely no effect on them. bubble is like a cast active upgrade in the same way that corruption is a +1 upgrade to attack for all units shooting at the corrupted unit. It must be calculated after, and it is, afaik.
That was a trick of mine in gold league, to spam early immortal vs the roach rush and shield upgrade quickly and fast to stomp them even harder.
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I still have alot of trouble holding it off (just like everyone else) and im only at diamond level (and i pretty much quit playing toss for zerg this past week) but i think the build i use is the most effective way (at least for me) to hold it off.
I go the super safe gateway robo gateway, and expand as my obs is being made, then i put down another gateway (maybe 2 depending on the timing of the push) and a stargate for pheonix's.
I also found cannons can help alot not just for damage but for also just in case your obs gets sniped (it happens alot , at least for me) so i usually throw 2 cannons down in front of my natural.
Last week i used this build and i held it off the first time and i failed the second time (ive held it off using something similair before but this is the first time i was using the refined version)
I think having pheonix's help alot though, if you have enough you can just pick up the tanks as well and let your stalkers go to work. Also because of PDD i mainly use it to pick up the tanks until it runs out. Also with pheonix's out you can skimp on the stalkers ( i have heard many times that the best way to hold this build off is to use as little stalkers as possibe , just enough to fend off the banshees) but if you are using pheonix's i dont know if that rule is the same. I usually try and get at least 1-2 immortals as well, your kind of spreading yourself thin depending on your saturation on the second base, but phoenix's are so useful in this situation , snipe the raven pick up the tanks kill the banshees, pheonix are in my oppinion the answer to holding off this build.
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EPT
