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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 13:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:45 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:41 Whitewing wrote:On August 23 2011 11:38 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:35 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:28 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:11 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:
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I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets.
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= Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:
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Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting. How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple? Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward. Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line. Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above. On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:
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I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets.
[quote]
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= Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs. Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees. Okay, let me give you a specific example of how the OP could be flawed. Say someone is going 1-gate robo expand and scouts the version of 1-1-1 that puma was doing (heavy marine style). If the protoss utilizes the fact that he got robo tech before expand, he will immediately rush up to colossus. That would be the correct response. The incorrect response would be to get more gates and go for a Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp. I'm simply stating that MC had an improper follow up. You may say that he did not have enough time to get colossus; however, with a safe 1-gate robo expand... he would have enough time. The heavier tank/lower marine version is what you pull the Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp out for. Even if its marine heavy, by the time you have your collusus up, he already is sieged up in natural (assuming you arent down the ramp). How do you attack into a siege'd up position without getting murdered? Because the siege tank count is so low, you can afford to take a few tank shots to roast a score of marines. It requires some micro, but much easier to defend. And if he pulls the marines back behind the tanks? And has a PDD ready? 2-3 tanks will do a ton of damage if you randomly wander units in to try to get at the marines. It all depends on what kind of 1-1-1 he's doing, problem is, you can't scout him early enough to make an appropriate decision, you have to guess right and get lucky to even have a chance, and then if you guessed right, you have to out-micro him. The problem is that terran has a superior unit composition and more money in his army, that combination is almost impossible to deal with. At least by having two bases early you can at least have more money in your army to try to beat the superior unit comp by throwing money at it. You must have not read my previous post. You DO have enough time to respond if you open with 1-gate robo. You don't have to guess if you do this opening. The scouting is essential. You ARE correct in that you have to micro a lot, but hey, all-ins are famously harder to hold than to execute. That's just the nature playing vs 1 base. Again, assuming you have the best unit comp possible and have a colossus out, if the terran plays correctly, you never get the chance to kill the marines with it, the tanks will cover for them and you still have to deal with the banshees (your stalker count suffers greatly) and PDD (the better versions of the all-in use a raven IMO). Assuming you do okay and trade well, you still need to deal with the follow up waves, and your unit production simply isn't as good. It's exceptionally hard to hold when you KNOW exactly the best way to hold it, and that's the definition, in my opinion, of imbalance. If you have perfect (or near perfect) information about what your opponent is doing and can't respond in a manner which allows you to defeat it at least 50% of the time assuming equal skill, it's overpowered.
He will not have enough tanks to eliminate all colossus pokes. The more you delay the push and keep marine counts stagnant, the more time you have to build up your army.
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On August 23 2011 13:13 Supamang wrote:
Zerg player here, just looking for a clarification.
Is 1/1/1 actually an all-in? If it is stopped or if the Terran is forced to pull back, is he pretty much dead? Or is it like the 2rax bunker rush where the risk vs reward is pretty disjointed?
Well its basically a build that gets all of Terran's tech in about 7 minutes off 1 base. The power isn't the all-in-ness but the fact that Terran is both extremely flexible and can produce a lot off marines off 1 base because a OC adds about 25% of a base worth of mineral income.
The main line of reasoning in this thread is that Terran can fake a 1-1-1 so Protoss goes Nexus first to counter but instead does a 2 rax and forces toss to cancel and be behind. Its somewhat similar to a fake 2 rax all-in forcing spines at your natural and putting you behind.
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Extremely strong 1 base all-in builds like this tend to be countered not by a specific unit composition or defensive timing, but an offensive timing used by the protoss. It wouldn't surprise me if there is an offensive timing that is being overlooked.
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On August 23 2011 13:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:45 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:41 Whitewing wrote:On August 23 2011 11:38 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:35 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:28 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:11 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:
[quote]
I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets.
[quote]
+
[quote]
= Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting. How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple? Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward. Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line. Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above. On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:
[quote]
I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets.
[quote]
+
[quote]
= Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs. Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees. Okay, let me give you a specific example of how the OP could be flawed. Say someone is going 1-gate robo expand and scouts the version of 1-1-1 that puma was doing (heavy marine style). If the protoss utilizes the fact that he got robo tech before expand, he will immediately rush up to colossus. That would be the correct response. The incorrect response would be to get more gates and go for a Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp. I'm simply stating that MC had an improper follow up. You may say that he did not have enough time to get colossus; however, with a safe 1-gate robo expand... he would have enough time. The heavier tank/lower marine version is what you pull the Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp out for. Even if its marine heavy, by the time you have your collusus up, he already is sieged up in natural (assuming you arent down the ramp). How do you attack into a siege'd up position without getting murdered? Because the siege tank count is so low, you can afford to take a few tank shots to roast a score of marines. It requires some micro, but much easier to defend. And if he pulls the marines back behind the tanks? And has a PDD ready? 2-3 tanks will do a ton of damage if you randomly wander units in to try to get at the marines. It all depends on what kind of 1-1-1 he's doing, problem is, you can't scout him early enough to make an appropriate decision, you have to guess right and get lucky to even have a chance, and then if you guessed right, you have to out-micro him. The problem is that terran has a superior unit composition and more money in his army, that combination is almost impossible to deal with. At least by having two bases early you can at least have more money in your army to try to beat the superior unit comp by throwing money at it. You must have not read my previous post. You DO have enough time to respond if you open with 1-gate robo. You don't have to guess if you do this opening. The scouting is essential. You ARE correct in that you have to micro a lot, but hey, all-ins are famously harder to hold than to execute. That's just the nature playing vs 1 base. Again, assuming you have the best unit comp possible and have a colossus out, if the terran plays correctly, you never get the chance to kill the marines with it, the tanks will cover for them and you still have to deal with the banshees (your stalker count suffers greatly) and PDD (the better versions of the all-in use a raven IMO). Assuming you do okay and trade well, you still need to deal with the follow up waves, and your unit production simply isn't as good. It's exceptionally hard to hold when you KNOW exactly the best way to hold it, and that's the definition, in my opinion, of imbalance. If you have perfect (or near perfect) information about what your opponent is doing and can't respond in a manner which allows you to defeat it at least 50% of the time assuming equal skill, it's overpowered.
Assumptions, Theorycrafts. Sorry, your argument holds no water. Unless you post a replay of this scenario, or else people will treat it as nonsense and bullcrap.
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Keep on posting Razuik! Soon you will have 50% of your posts in this one thread.
Seriously tho, im sure that we are all aware of your opinion about the 1/1/1 by now.
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On August 23 2011 13:37 The.Imperator wrote:
Keep on posting Razuik! Soon you will have 50% of your posts in this one thread.
Seriously tho, im sure that we are all aware of your opinion about the 1/1/1 by now.
Well, his posts are constructive and they make sense. What about yours? Sarcasm and not constructive.
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Er, are you suggesting one base colossi or two base colossi? Two base colossi is not going to have more than one colossi when this hits at the expense of tons of other units. If the terran scouts the toss is one base he sits back. If it's one base colossi he goes banshee heavy. If you have played protoss you know that you can't afford colossi and stalkers to deal with banshees, especially if you try to get to range upgrade.
You seem to be forgetting how OP mentioned that he watched a player do one gate robo five times and lose every game? Lol at calling people saying one gate robo isn't the best response "theorycrafters" when you don't show why it is the proper response and are just theorycrafting yourself. I've seen the replays of the guy going one base colossi and winning when engaging in the middle of the map but no remotely smart terran is going to push out before scouting a protoss nexus. Until the nexus goes down, go banshee and tank heavy. If it stays one base to one base, terran floats CC down to natural and wins.
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On August 23 2011 13:39 Heavenly wrote:
Er, are you suggesting one base colossi or two base colossi? Two base colossi is not going to have more than one colossi when this hits at the expense of tons of other units. If the terran scouts the toss is one base he sits back. If it's one base colossi he goes banshee heavy. If you have played protoss you know that you can't afford colossi and stalkers to deal with banshees, especially if you try to get to range upgrade.
You seem to be forgetting how OP mentioned that he watched a player do one gate robo five times and lose every game? Lol at calling people saying one gate robo isn't the best response "theorycrafters" when you don't show why it is the proper response and are just theorycrafting yourself. I've seen the replays of the guy going one base colossi and winning when engaging in the middle of the map but no remotely smart terran is going to push out before scouting a protoss nexus. Until the nexus goes down, go banshee and tank heavy. If it stays one base to one base, terran floats CC down to natural and wins.
Are you talking to me?
If you are, then I must disagree. First off, I did play on the ladders and tried responses that you guys theorycrafters suggested. Read the last page.
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On August 23 2011 13:46 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 13:39 Heavenly wrote:
Er, are you suggesting one base colossi or two base colossi? Two base colossi is not going to have more than one colossi when this hits at the expense of tons of other units. If the terran scouts the toss is one base he sits back. If it's one base colossi he goes banshee heavy. If you have played protoss you know that you can't afford colossi and stalkers to deal with banshees, especially if you try to get to range upgrade.
You seem to be forgetting how OP mentioned that he watched a player do one gate robo five times and lose every game? Lol at calling people saying one gate robo isn't the best response "theorycrafters" when you don't show why it is the proper response and are just theorycrafting yourself. I've seen the replays of the guy going one base colossi and winning when engaging in the middle of the map but no remotely smart terran is going to push out before scouting a protoss nexus. Until the nexus goes down, go banshee and tank heavy. If it stays one base to one base, terran floats CC down to natural and wins. Are you talking to me? If you are, then I must disagree. First off, I did play on the ladders and tried responses that you guys theorycrafters suggested. Read the last page.
You linked to a two gate twilight council expand build to tell people how to hold it 2/3 times on masters level in the North American server (what's the difference in the 1/3 that you lose to? Since you are doing the exact same build order every time presumably, there must be something else the terran is doing to account for those ones winning while others don't) This thread is discussing how the best protoss in Korea are unable to beat it and is a discussion on how it is imbalanced at the highest level (i.e. not the North American masters server). Any of those Koreans would beat you 1000/1000 games with the 1-1-1. The Koreans that know the proper reactions to what they scout you doing will beat you 10000/10000 times.
Of course I'm sure you think your post was very enlightening and everyone else is just theorycrafters. Continue repeating the same thing over and over with that other guy.
This thread discusses the game at the highest level and how it is imbalanced. Thanks for your anecdotal evidence and your ability to hold it on North American masters (guess what, I can too, most terrans that do it mess it up royally and have about half the units of the Koreans) but it is irrelevant to everything going on here.
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I don't know about you guys but I think it's way too early to call...
4Gate Problem in PvZ and some PvT from the past
+ Show Spoiler +
As you can see the counter to the build took ages, I mean ages.People were shouting, it's too imba, too easy to pull it off and hard to defend.Who is complaining about 4Gate in PvT and PvZ now? O_O
No reason to nerf anything, just sitback and relax.
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Who is complaining about 4Gate in PvT and PvZ now?
It was nerfed? O_o
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On August 23 2011 14:12 nvs. wrote:It was nerfed? O_o
It was nerfed for PvP, no one was complaining about PvT and PvZ at that point.
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On August 23 2011 13:08 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 13:04 SuperYo1000 wrote:On August 23 2011 12:59 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 12:54 koolaid1990 wrote:On August 23 2011 12:49 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 12:40 Atasu wrote:On August 23 2011 12:07 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 12:01 Atasu wrote:
Okay so people keep saying that the 1/1/1 build is beatable as per the MC vs Puma game 1, however after watching that replay, MC had nearly PERFECT micro in holding off the first engagement, it was superb. Now not everyone has such amazing micro against an a move all in, and why should protoss be forced to even have perfect micro...we all know that is ludicrous. People need to stop arguing against the fact that it is not imbalanced, the fact of the matter is it is, and the koreans (who this community loves to provide as the final trump all evidence yet in this case are disregarding it at times) even consider it imbalanced, yet we have people here who do not devote their lives to SC2 making very ignorant statements and assumptions about it being just another allin. Although I always thought this build was hard to beat as I lost to it pretty much every time i encountered it (before its usage spread like wildfire). In the end people watch that game's replay, on MC's camera view, you'll be amazed what MC did to hold the first instance off.
On a side note, people are making arguments about protoss having higher initial army values, protoss has mostly gas heavy units that cannot be replenished as is the case with marines, so please shut up about that. No offense, but can you shut up about it being imbalanced and read the posts that I made completely refuting everything you just said. MC had the completely wrong unit composition for that particular version of the 1-1-1 all-in. His micro is irrelevant against the heavy marine/ low tank count of Puma. Please tell me your the same skill level as Alicia or at least GM, if your not, your just someone with knowledge and facts. Play out your scenarios in a real game, and see what happens, I dont even have to read your posts because they are most likely baseless without any testing. Guess what else, Ive played against this build for a very long time so I have experience against it (albiet only diamond level) what im trying to say is though it is still powerful at the hands of people with limited skill ( as with any practiced all in), unless you play protoss and get your ass handed to this build, you dont feel the frustration/understand the community. This is bigger than you and your ego, its about people's lives and income, stop being so god damn selfish How am I being selfish when 10000s of protoss players are calling for balance changes instead of actually learning how to beat the build? VERY few pro gamers have commented on it's balance, but none of them have gone into any kinds of specifics. Am I so selfish that I am denied the right to post counter examples to the OP's non-specific and apparently "factual" information? so you dont think the 20+ pro protoss players getting raped by their teamates in practice games by the 1-1-1 build haven't tried to find a build that beats the 1-1-1 build? are you suggesting pros like alicia or puzzle haven't even tried to find a build that beats it? are you suggesting that, knowing puma would 1-1-1, MC hasn't tried to create a build that would counter it? wrong. You are wrong for assuming all of these things. The build wasn't as strong when robo expands were more popular. You argue on 1 liners from pros that have no implication on their actual knowledge of the build. If MVP went and said randomly "5-gate on one base is imbalanced and nearly unstoppable!", does that make it fact? NO, the answer is NO. Pro gamers need to supply factual information when arguing just like everyone else. For all we know, Alicia's one liner comment could be a simple joke he made to all of his friends that he wasn't at all serious about. lol alicia has tweeted much info on this, made comments on its virtually strength verse all protoss builds, ....he thinks its imba. so stop trying to sound smart I didn't know Alicia changed his teamliquid name to superyo1000... Or else how would you know what Alicia was thinking at that time? He can tweet that 'terran must be removed and will you agree with him? Sure, he practices alot with pros and ballers, but tweets are tweets. They hold novwater. Unless you put up 10 replays of you losing to 1/1/1 and EXPLAIN why you lost on the fine details, or your theorycraft holds as much water as my finger can.
wow absolutely horrible response. sorry, I would take actual professionals word over yours. Maybe your naive and think that all he does is tweet...lol. I eagerly await your stubbornness
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If anything, maybe just buff the photon cannon, double it's attack speed, and give +1 armor to it. Let it be something to be researched at the cybernetics core.
IN all seriousness, better wait and sit back indeed before restorting to buffs/nerfs. If Blizzard deems it indeed a impossible situation they will adjust as they see fit, even if it takes a while because balance is a fragile thing.
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On August 23 2011 14:00 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 13:46 HaruRH wrote:On August 23 2011 13:39 Heavenly wrote:
Er, are you suggesting one base colossi or two base colossi? Two base colossi is not going to have more than one colossi when this hits at the expense of tons of other units. If the terran scouts the toss is one base he sits back. If it's one base colossi he goes banshee heavy. If you have played protoss you know that you can't afford colossi and stalkers to deal with banshees, especially if you try to get to range upgrade.
You seem to be forgetting how OP mentioned that he watched a player do one gate robo five times and lose every game? Lol at calling people saying one gate robo isn't the best response "theorycrafters" when you don't show why it is the proper response and are just theorycrafting yourself. I've seen the replays of the guy going one base colossi and winning when engaging in the middle of the map but no remotely smart terran is going to push out before scouting a protoss nexus. Until the nexus goes down, go banshee and tank heavy. If it stays one base to one base, terran floats CC down to natural and wins. Are you talking to me? If you are, then I must disagree. First off, I did play on the ladders and tried responses that you guys theorycrafters suggested. Read the last page. You linked to a two gate twilight council expand build to tell people how to hold it 2/3 times on masters level in the North American server (what's the difference in the 1/3 that you lose to? Since you are doing the exact same build order every time presumably, there must be something else the terran is doing to account for those ones winning while others don't) This thread is discussing how the best protoss in Korea are unable to beat it and is a discussion on how it is imbalanced at the highest level (i.e. not the North American masters server). Any of those Koreans would beat you 1000/1000 games with the 1-1-1. The Koreans that know the proper reactions to what they scout you doing will beat you 10000/10000 times. Of course I'm sure you think your post was very enlightening and everyone else is just theorycrafters. Continue repeating the same thing over and over with that other guy. This thread discusses the game at the highest level and how it is imbalanced. Thanks for your anecdotal evidence and your ability to hold it on North American masters (guess what, I can too, most terrans that do it mess it up royally and have about half the units of the Koreans) but it is irrelevant to everything going on here.
Well, to answer your questions,
1) At least I bothered to try taking on 1/1/1, unlike most of these people who just whine with some halfassed theories about why 1/1/1 is imba.
2) In no way did the op mention 1/1/1 in the Korean scene, hence rendering your argument invalid.
3) The op clearly wanted to discuss strategies about how to defeat 1/1/1, and not how Korean protoss cannot beat 1/1/1.
EDIT: the op derailed off his own question of how Koreans think 1/1/1 is imbalanced and went on about 1 base colossus. Hence, I wanted to answer people's question about strategies to beat 1/1/1. 2 Base colo and 1 bases colo are too risky, either setting you back or making you substantial to other Terran pushes.
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So there seems to be two kind of views:
1. Those who support Tyler's view, which is not very clear. Seemingly, he says "1-1-1 is fine if you are not greedy, and use my strategy, which worked for me".
2. Those who support the OP, Gisado, MVP, Alicia and Koreans. A very detailed explanation is given in the OP.
The first group are getting mad, saying "how dare you disagree with the Pro in this thread, that is Tyler?" It is OK for them to disagree with bajillion Korean PRO protosses who keep sucking right now. Those kids who put 10-12 hours a day to figure out a solution to this. But hey, they didn't post in this thread, so...
What I am going to say is simple. I watched finals MC vs Puma. It's ridiculous how much MC was better, IMO. He was killing Puma's banshees before any serious damage, he held off first wave attack, then second all in... just like described in the OP. However, 1-1-1 is not the only problem, as highlighted in the second game. EMP+MM is crushing Protoss as well, it's ridiculous. MC at some point had 50 food advantage and an expansion advantage, yet, the basic EMP+MM overrun him. This after MC destroyed about 4-5 mediavacs full of units before they did any damage.
I will say this. Puma is a decent player, but I have been impressed with MMA much more than Puma. Puma seemed to be abusing the strategies for which Toss has no answer right now or the ones that might even be patched away. At least MMA was showing sick multi-tasking and drop play.
Struggling to remember anything remarkable he did actually. Absolutely grey player.
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Please don't discuss 3gSg as a valid counter, any competent Terran just makes 1 less tank and gets cloak. Bye bye workers.
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Is there any vods that highlight this build? I havent been keeping up lately with vods.
It would be nice to have some links in the OP.
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On August 23 2011 14:18 Xxavi wrote:
So there seems to be two kind of views:
1. Those who support Tyler's view, which is not very clear. Seemingly, he says "1-1-1 is fine if you are not greedy, and use my strategy, which worked for me".
2. Those who support the OP, Gisado, MVP, Alicia and Koreans. A very detailed explanation is given in the OP.
The first group are getting mad, saying "how dare you disagree with the Pro in this thread, that is Tyler?" It is OK for them to disagree with bajillion Korean PRO protosses who keep sucking right now. Those kids who put 10-12 hours a day to figure out a solution to this. But hey, they didn't post in this thread, so...
What I am going to say is simple. I watched finals MC vs Puma. It's ridiculous how much MC was better, IMO. He was killing Puma's banshees before any serious damage, he held off first wave attack, then second all in... just like described in the OP. However, 1-1-1 is not the only problem, as highlighted in the second game. EMP+MM is crushing Protoss as well, it's ridiculous. MC at some point had 50 food advantage and an expansion advantage, yet, the basic EMP+MM overrun him.
I will say this. Puma is a decent player, but I have been impressed with MMA much more than Puma. Puma seemed to be abusing the strategies for which Toss has no answer right now or the ones that might even be patched away. At least MMA was showing sick multi-tasking and drop play.
No, not even close but nice job with generalizing the views of many different posters into strawmen.Also nice bringing up game 2 of MC vs Puma although this thread is about the 1/1/1 build. Nice job with the disguised U mad comment?
Puma doesn't care about impressing you.Sorry but your post is ridiculous you:
-Summarize an entire thread into "yeah, basically its one side that is right and another that is wrong and can't argue". good job in dividing this thread into black and white like a politician would do.
-Then whined about something completely unrelated.
-Then took away from Puma's victory basically saying that his skill didn't matter because he abused oh poor protoss.
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EPT
