EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 83
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
It seems like Protoss can generally prevent Terran from climbing his ramp, but cannot hold onto his natural. But if Terran has to stray far from the path between his main and the Protoss's to kill the Protoss's expansion, suddenly the Terran is very open to counterattacks and flanks, and loses the ability to defend his reinforcements. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
instead, a much simpler change to fix 1-1-1 would be to give immortals a 30 second buildtime. it wouldnt break PvP, and i dont think it would break PvZ (a robo could create 3 immortals in 90 seconds which is 750/300 cost and sucks at killing zerglings/hydras, or a robo could build 1 collossi in 75 seconds which is only 300/200 cost and much better at killing lings/hydras and has much longer range) and i dont think it would break PvT. if anything, letting a toss get out way more immortals off a single robo might help alot of the lategame situations we are see'ing where in MC vs PUMA lategame it seems the terran army just steamrolls the toss army. however this immortal buff wouldnt effect collossi (which all the terrans want to complain about) so i think it would be fine | ||
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:58 Severedevil wrote: How does Safe Build --> Ninja Expo fair against the 1/1/1? It seems like Protoss can generally prevent Terran from climbing his ramp, but cannot hold onto his natural. But if Terran has to stray far from the path between his main and the Protoss's to kill the Protoss's expansion, suddenly the Terran is very open to counterattacks and flanks, and loses the ability to defend his reinforcements. Sase actually did this on Crossfire against Kas I believe it was during Dreamhack Summer, seemed like a pretty cool concept. | ||
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merlin101
Switzerland194 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:58 Severedevil wrote: How does Safe Build --> Ninja Expo fair against the 1/1/1? It seems like Protoss can generally prevent Terran from climbing his ramp, but cannot hold onto his natural. But if Terran has to stray far from the path between his main and the Protoss's to kill the Protoss's expansion, suddenly the Terran is very open to counterattacks and flanks, and loses the ability to defend his reinforcements. Puma vs MC game 3... Puma scouted the expo and crushed mc. Although MC did do a basetrade... | ||
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antikk555
85 Posts
GSL open 1 quarter finals from less than 1 year ago. I am a terrible player and knowning what I know now I could have entered and won that tournament, most of us could. The level of play was so that bad. Here we are 1 year later and everyone is crying imbalance over a particular build. I would venture a bet that in 1 year this thread would be a subject of ridicule if it was necroed up to the front page. TL;DR: Stop crying imbalance on forums and play the fucking game. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6231 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:58 Severedevil wrote: How does Safe Build --> Ninja Expo fair against the 1/1/1? It seems like Protoss can generally prevent Terran from climbing his ramp, but cannot hold onto his natural. But if Terran has to stray far from the path between his main and the Protoss's to kill the Protoss's expansion, suddenly the Terran is very open to counterattacks and flanks, and loses the ability to defend his reinforcements. Watch MC vs Puma set 3 at IEM. + Show Spoiler + MC does pretty much exactly that, and gets stomped. The terran can completely ignore the expansion and just kill the protoss main with vision+tanks from the low-ground, and then you end up in a base-race situation against an opponent with flying buildings and an invincible ball. | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
Brb, nerfing zealot build time Sentries holding my mass muta Blizz Brb, nerfing sentry damage 4 gate too strong Blizz Brb, nerfing research time Blink stalkers wrecking my army with 1337 micro Blizz Brb, fungal prevents teleportation Storm wreck my T1 Blizz Brb, nerfing storm But Blizz, storm still wrecking my T1 Brb, nerfing amulet Blizz, colo wrecking my T1 Brb, nerfing Colosus dmg But Blizz, voidray too strong Brb, nerfing voidray damage But Blizz, voidray still too fast for me to catch Brb, removing speed upgrade Blizz, MOAR! Brb, range 7 -> 6 Thanks Blizz, but mamaship and 8 Templars into archons killed my mutas, fair trade seem not fair Brb, nerfing mothership Ok, thanks Blizz, 1 more thing, voidray OP Brb, spore crawlers burrow faster. ..... I know I forgot some too, which is the sad part. HEY BLIZZ we've been struggling with 1/1/1 since beta. Throw us a bone! | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:17 HaruRH wrote: Well, to answer your questions, 1) At least I bothered to try taking on 1/1/1, unlike most of these people who just whine with some halfassed theories about why 1/1/1 is imba. 2) In no way did the op mention 1/1/1 in the Korean scene, hence rendering your argument invalid. 3) The op clearly wanted to discuss strategies about how to defeat 1/1/1, and not how Korean protoss cannot beat 1/1/1. EDIT: the op derailed off his own question of how Koreans think 1/1/1 is imbalanced and went on about 1 base colossus. Hence, I wanted to answer people's question about strategies to beat 1/1/1. 2 Base colo and 1 bases colo are too risky, either setting you back or making you substantial to other Terran pushes. ...What? I'm going to add some more here because I don't want to get warned for a one word response but...what? The OP itself is "Why the 1/1/1 is viewed as being imbalanced in the Korean scene" which is a discussion of the 1/1/1 in the Korean scene and why protoss struggles so hard to beat it...I mean...that's exactly what it says and then you're saying the OP says something completely different. Then your edit just doesn't make sense? How did OP derail his own thread by discussing how one base colossus isn't the solution...because this thread is talking about what strategies toss are attempting and why it doesn't work, hence discussing one base colossus being unviable is completely relevant. You gave advice of how to beat 1/1/1 in masters server with some two gate twilight build...I beat it handily in masters with one gate expand almost every time, that doesn't mean the build isn't actually imbalanced, it means that they aren't doing it right. 5 rax reaper was nerfed because it was unstoppable in the high levels but you could still hold it off in the lower leagues...it was still imbalanced and nerfed either way. I doubt anyone is saying "boohoo I can't beat this build in diamond it's unstoppable", they're saying it's imbalanced at the highest Korean level and makes for a VERY unentertaining game for the spectators. This is why you saying weird stuff like "you people are just theorycrafters stop whining" makes no sense. | ||
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farnham
1378 Posts
the typical marine , tank, banshee and raven mix seems to be quite vulnerable to it only marines can shoot air and carriers have far superior range vikings are only viable in larger numbers a decent ground army to hold off marines and a few carriers could be quite good against 111 User was warned for this post | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6231 Posts
On August 23 2011 15:13 farnham wrote: how about carriers the typical marine , tank, banshee and raven mix seems to be quite vulnerable to it only marines can shoot air and carriers have far superior range vikings are only viable in larger numbers a decent ground army to hold off marines and a few carriers could be quite good against 111 Words cannot convey how much I hope this is a troll post. Has anyone tried the 5gate sentry-zealot all-in? It should hit before much of the 3/1/1's major tech is out, and with enough forcefields I've been able to roll through quite a surprising number of bunkers. I obviously wasn't playing Puma, though. | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
On August 23 2011 15:13 farnham wrote: how about carriers the typical marine , tank, banshee and raven mix seems to be quite vulnerable to it only marines can shoot air and carriers have far superior range vikings are only viable in larger numbers a decent ground army to hold off marines and a few carriers could be quite good against 111 Great idea. Push comes at 9 minutes. I can get 4 carriers in 9 minutes. Maybe 5 wig chronoboost. I'll report back with results. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6231 Posts
On August 23 2011 15:19 CellTech wrote: Great idea. Push comes at 9 minutes. I can get 4 carriers in 9 minutes. Maybe 5 wig chronoboost. I'll report back with results. You realise mass marine kills interceptors so quickly they don't even get shots off, right? Also PDD might even stop what little they do manage to send downrange before melting, I actually don't know. Good luck with that one. | ||
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TrickyGilligan
United States641 Posts
On August 23 2011 15:13 farnham wrote: how about carriers the typical marine , tank, banshee and raven mix seems to be quite vulnerable to it only marines can shoot air and carriers have far superior range vikings are only viable in larger numbers a decent ground army to hold off marines and a few carriers could be quite good against 111 Marines, even without stim, kill interceptors almost instantly. The 1/1/1 and 3/1/1 both use lots and lots of marines. Hence, Carriers aren't really that great. If they do some weird variation that uses hellions for some reason, I can see it working, but it's just not not really viable with mass marines. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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farnham
1378 Posts
On August 23 2011 15:22 TrickyGilligan wrote: Marines, even without stim, kill interceptors almost instantly. The 1/1/1 and 3/1/1 both use lots and lots of marines. Hence, Carriers aren't really that great. If they do some weird variation that uses hellions for some reason, I can see it working, but it's just not not really viable with mass marines. carriers have superior range and marines either have to shoot interceptors (which is good since they are rebuild pretty fast) or attack the carriers directly in which case the stalkers or zealots can kill them since they are prob out of tank range carriers can also pick up single banshees and ravens if they are not protected well | ||
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farnham
1378 Posts
On August 23 2011 15:17 Belisarius wrote: Words cannot convey how much I hope this is a troll post. Has anyone tried the 5gate sentry-zealot all-in? It should hit before much of the 3/1/1's major tech is out, and with enough forcefields I've been able to roll through quite a surprising number of bunkers. I obviously wasn't playing Puma, though. since nobody is using carriers it might be a good time to test em i had quite good results with carriers and a ground army against hydra and roach in the past granted im not gm in korea or anything so its just an idea | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 23 2011 15:28 farnham wrote: carriers have superior range and marines either have to shoot interceptors (which is good since they are rebuild pretty fast) or attack the carriers directly in which case the stalkers or zealots can kill them since they are prob out of tank range carriers can also pick up single banshees and ravens if they are not protected well If (and he will, trust me, he will) he scouts you making carriers, he'll stop making banshees/tanks and just make marines/vikings and then just straight up kill you. If you somehow miraculously get 5-6 carriers out before you are dead on just one base, he's probably expanded by now and is about to walk over you. If you expanded, you won't have very many carriers and you will get walked over. Seriously, those things take FOREVER to build. | ||
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LicH.
China235 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
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