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On March 21 2014 02:27 Qwerty85 wrote:
This just shows that opening templar tech isn't the only way to play against terran and colossus isn't really that inferior to templar tech.
Until the SCV train shows up  That's why Protoss started going Templar in the first place. But maybe the reason that strategy (SCV pull) is so good in HotS vs. Wings is because Protoss players are playing greedier, skipping those sentires (which would have FF) and opting for upgrades and tech instead).
So who knows.
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Although its hard to micro against it, there are still some hope we might see it in the future
Talking about zealots/templar vs wm/bio.
Select 3chargelots and charge into a bio marauder->trigger widowmines(?)
Use stalkers to outrange the widowmine while terran attacks the stalkers with marauders, toss now moves back with stalkers and charge 3~ zealots to trigger mine and to do dmg to a marauder(?)
Use storm on a widowmine with abit of bio around it->Two options now:
Using stalker to one shot the wm
Charging in 2~ zealots to kill that mine and trigger other mines around there
There might be some cool micro against it
Forgot one which sounds effective:
Attack widowmine with stalker->marauder attack stalker->toss use storm on widowmine to kill the wm and do dmg to the bio units.
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Protoss saying terran is OP because for the 1st time in like 7 months there are more terran in the top16 GM KR than protoss.
Thanks for the laugh.
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On March 21 2014 00:09 ciox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 23:46 Grumbels wrote:
I wonder how the game would look like with templar having a psionic attack based on fire wall to replace storm.
A lot like having extra Colossi that require energy to attack IMO unless the spell lasts a long time. Of the others only Lightning might be interesting, since Meteor is just storms with a huge delay and Nova doesn't quite work because spellcasters are usually too fragile to let enemy units surround them.. unless they're Battlecruisers or something.
Well, let's say you would try to match various area of effect attacks in the game to my four archetypes.
- nova: banelings, ultralisk, guardian shield
- lightning: lurkers, hellions
- fire wall: colossi
- meteor: siege tanks, psionic storm, fungal growth, thor, time warp, blinding cloud, reavers, emp, nuke (this category is most popular obviously)
and there are some others like mutalisk glaive bounce which is like chain lightning, and seeker missile which I think is like a spell the assassin has.
Now, some of the matches are a bit of a stretch, but you can see that they are all represented. It's actually the colossus that is quite lonely in its category, and it's not even a well loved unit. I don't think you can say that targeted line area of effect is a failed experiment based only on the relative failure of the colossus. The fire wall spell in Diablo II works in a quite interesting way for instance and might be a better model. Nobody would say that nuke, the reaver attack, the siege tank shells and psionic storm are just copies of each other, even if they're all circular area of effect spells that only deal damage.
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On March 21 2014 01:23 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 01:05 Big J wrote:On March 21 2014 00:35 DinoMight wrote:
I think late-game TvP is fine. Both sides have the units they need to fight the other and with proper Ghost control we see good Terrans win late game scenarios. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and even Bunny are doing very well in the late game.
IMO it's the early game that causes problems for Terran because they either die or fall behind in econ. But when they come out even or ahead they can win.
So I don't think Storm needs to be reworked or any major changes to Colossus are needed etc. Forced manual charge on Zealots is the most ridiculous thing that is suggested pretty regularly.
**In before "omg Dinomight so biased." I'm playing exclusively Terran right now. I think it's pretty telling when 2 high level Protoss independently say how much stronger Terran has gotten through the last patch (and give reasonable evidence --> Korean GM being Terran dominated; even if that may just be because they have a little bit too much time to spare currently  ). Still I dislike blink allins, and how blizzard wants to adress them. There would be much better ways that don't influence most macro builds without limiting mapmakers. While the result for the macro blinkgameplay itself is the same => it will be weaker. Hell, it's probably going to be weaker if you can't blink into a base in the lategame because no cliff exists, than when you just nerf the timing (like extra Twilight build time) or add a tiny extra requirment to the blink research (like you need a forge; you need a warpgate; you need a robo; just pick the one the Protoss players can agree with the most). Though we don't even know about the mapchanges yet, maybe they will be tiny and blink/MsC will just stay the Immortal/Sentry "haha, I don't want to play a macrogame against you and can still have a great winrate" of TvP. Lol, 2 pro Protoss players that are in Ro4 in the GSL whining about Terran. How is that more telling then dozen of high level Terrans have been complaining about Protoss over the past few months. As for ladder win rates, everytime Terran used ladder to point to Protoss OP, Protoss here just say that Protoss is suppose to be better in Bo1s due to all-ins... So NOW you want to use ladder results...
Did I say it's more telling? Or said that I think they are right and Terran is broken?
True, I should have stated that explicitly, though I guess I thought it was evident by the following lines about blink and by the fact that I quoted a comment that was talking about how mid-lategame is reasonably balanced.
GM ladder of only one region isn't the most telling thing in the world. I think I never said it means nothing, but yeah, I think it gets overvalued greatly lots of times. Even more I just thought I'd be funny with editing in the comment in the brackets, originally I didn't even mean to talk about the comment.
Why there are so few terrans/so many Protoss now in Code S is a result of prepatch balance/metagame. Not of current, so I don't think you have an argument with talking about "2 pro Protoss players that are in Ro4 in the GSL whining about Terran".
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On March 21 2014 02:37 Foxxan wrote:
Although its hard to micro against it, there are still some hope we might see it in the future
Talking about zealots/templar vs wm/bio.
Select 3chargelots and charge into a bio marauder->trigger widowmines(?)
Use stalkers to outrange the widowmine while terran attacks the stalkers with marauders, toss now moves back with stalkers and charge 3~ zealots to trigger mine and to do dmg to a marauder(?)
Use storm on a widowmine with abit of bio around it->Two options now:
Using stalker to one shot the wm
Charging in 2~ zealots to kill that mine and trigger other mines around there
There might be some cool micro against it
Forgot one which sounds effective:
Attack widowmine with stalker->marauder attack stalker->toss use storm on widowmine to kill the wm and do dmg to the bio units.
Honestly I think the hardest part is that Viking + Scan is so good at denying obs.
Overseers are a lot faster/beefier than observers so Zerg doesn't struggle as much detecting mines, also 1 ling can be used to detonate a mine (25 mins) vs. 1 Zealot, the cheapest unit Protoss has (100mins).
That sounds like a headache though, just going Colossus vs. mines seems way easier and more likely since you need the robo for detection anyway.
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On March 21 2014 03:37 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 02:37 Foxxan wrote:
Although its hard to micro against it, there are still some hope we might see it in the future
Talking about zealots/templar vs wm/bio.
Select 3chargelots and charge into a bio marauder->trigger widowmines(?)
Use stalkers to outrange the widowmine while terran attacks the stalkers with marauders, toss now moves back with stalkers and charge 3~ zealots to trigger mine and to do dmg to a marauder(?)
Use storm on a widowmine with abit of bio around it->Two options now:
Using stalker to one shot the wm
Charging in 2~ zealots to kill that mine and trigger other mines around there
There might be some cool micro against it
Forgot one which sounds effective:
Attack widowmine with stalker->marauder attack stalker->toss use storm on widowmine to kill the wm and do dmg to the bio units. Honestly I think the hardest part is that Viking + Scan is so good at denying obs. Overseers are a lot faster/beefier than observers so Zerg doesn't struggle as much detecting mines, also 1 ling can be used to detonate a mine (25 mins) vs. 1 Zealot, the cheapest unit Protoss has (100mins). That sounds like a headache though, just going Colossus vs. mines seems way easier and more likely since you need the robo for detection anyway.
Hallucinations?
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On March 20 2014 21:44 Faust852 wrote:
I even think mech is being OP right now, at least at my level (highM/lowGM). I mean, I just never lose TvZ with mech except some early/midgame roach timing where i'm being too greedy. You just need to scout actively to don't lose to stupid shit like muta when you don't have AA, but once you stabilized on 3 bases, it's easy as fuck in almost every maps. If it's Frost you just camp on 4 bases with heavy hellion harass till 2/2 and then staight up win with raven tank thor hellbat, almost a-clic. If it's a smaller map like Heavy Rain, you can abuse chokes and narrow paths, and do some sick timing push.
Mvp style with heavy BFH is really really strong imho.
/signed
I never win against mech. SH/ Muta.....Roach/Hydra/Viper....nothing helps against mech, it's quite frustrating.
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On March 21 2014 03:43 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 03:37 DinoMight wrote:On March 21 2014 02:37 Foxxan wrote:
Although its hard to micro against it, there are still some hope we might see it in the future
Talking about zealots/templar vs wm/bio.
Select 3chargelots and charge into a bio marauder->trigger widowmines(?)
Use stalkers to outrange the widowmine while terran attacks the stalkers with marauders, toss now moves back with stalkers and charge 3~ zealots to trigger mine and to do dmg to a marauder(?)
Use storm on a widowmine with abit of bio around it->Two options now:
Using stalker to one shot the wm
Charging in 2~ zealots to kill that mine and trigger other mines around there
There might be some cool micro against it
Forgot one which sounds effective:
Attack widowmine with stalker->marauder attack stalker->toss use storm on widowmine to kill the wm and do dmg to the bio units. Honestly I think the hardest part is that Viking + Scan is so good at denying obs. Overseers are a lot faster/beefier than observers so Zerg doesn't struggle as much detecting mines, also 1 ling can be used to detonate a mine (25 mins) vs. 1 Zealot, the cheapest unit Protoss has (100mins). That sounds like a headache though, just going Colossus vs. mines seems way easier and more likely since you need the robo for detection anyway. Hallucinations?
Well, WM 1 shot them. Since Protoss aren't making many sentires (gas cost) it's not like they just have tons of hallucinations available to spam and detonate the WM.
Definitely works on a smaller scale though. I've done it to hold off things like WM cheese.
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what you think about these changes
- remove wm buff
- remove decrease of the mothership vision
- keep the ghost buff
- remove time warp (to nerf blinks all inn when they are scouted)
- void rays do less damage to corruptors
- corruptors damage outpout gets slightly increased (to give zerg other options to combat against air toss, and air terran)
- decrease the range and cooldown of Shs and increase the speed of the Shs to make them more dynamic (the Shs arent that needed anymore because you are buffing the corruptor to deal against heavy air compositions)
Let me know what you guys think!
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On March 21 2014 05:57 gerardo19908 wrote:
what you think about these changes
- remove wm buff
- remove decrease of the mothership vision
- keep the ghost buff
- remove time warp (to nerf blinks all inn when they are scouted)
Let me know what you guys think!
1. removing WM buff would make terran much weaker midgame
2. blink allins, nuff said.
3. yea hows that a change?
4. wont be enough.
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On March 21 2014 03:37 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 02:37 Foxxan wrote:
Although its hard to micro against it, there are still some hope we might see it in the future
Talking about zealots/templar vs wm/bio.
Select 3chargelots and charge into a bio marauder->trigger widowmines(?)
Use stalkers to outrange the widowmine while terran attacks the stalkers with marauders, toss now moves back with stalkers and charge 3~ zealots to trigger mine and to do dmg to a marauder(?)
Use storm on a widowmine with abit of bio around it->Two options now:
Using stalker to one shot the wm
Charging in 2~ zealots to kill that mine and trigger other mines around there
There might be some cool micro against it
Forgot one which sounds effective:
Attack widowmine with stalker->marauder attack stalker->toss use storm on widowmine to kill the wm and do dmg to the bio units. Honestly I think the hardest part is that Viking + Scan is so good at denying obs. Overseers are a lot faster/beefier than observers so Zerg doesn't struggle as much detecting mines, also 1 ling can be used to detonate a mine (25 mins) vs. 1 Zealot, the cheapest unit Protoss has (100mins). That sounds like a headache though, just going Colossus vs. mines seems way easier and more likely since you need the robo for detection anyway.
How is that relevant?
Terran doesnt make vikings unless he face colossous.
Why do you write mineral cost of ling and zealot?
If u have played zerg u know that 1ling can never trigger a widowmine against bio units cuz he dies before he do it
while the zealot have bigger chance doing it.
Also the zealot have charge which makes the zealot run in 7.5 movementspeed, almost reaches his target instant.
There for sure is potential in this. I hope protoss figures something out
cuz i like the chargelot/templar over colossous by far to watch
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On March 21 2014 05:59 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 05:57 gerardo19908 wrote:
what you think about these changes
- remove wm buff
- remove decrease of the mothership vision
- keep the ghost buff
- remove time warp (to nerf blinks all inn when they are scouted)
Let me know what you guys think!
1. removing WM buff would make terran much weaker midgame 2. blink allins, nuff said. 3. yea hows that a change? 4. wont be enough.
Needs something to give terran different opener options, honestly removing the engineering requirement of turrets would do wonders for this matchup.
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On March 21 2014 06:31 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 03:37 DinoMight wrote:On March 21 2014 02:37 Foxxan wrote:
Although its hard to micro against it, there are still some hope we might see it in the future
Talking about zealots/templar vs wm/bio.
Select 3chargelots and charge into a bio marauder->trigger widowmines(?)
Use stalkers to outrange the widowmine while terran attacks the stalkers with marauders, toss now moves back with stalkers and charge 3~ zealots to trigger mine and to do dmg to a marauder(?)
Use storm on a widowmine with abit of bio around it->Two options now:
Using stalker to one shot the wm
Charging in 2~ zealots to kill that mine and trigger other mines around there
There might be some cool micro against it
Forgot one which sounds effective:
Attack widowmine with stalker->marauder attack stalker->toss use storm on widowmine to kill the wm and do dmg to the bio units. Honestly I think the hardest part is that Viking + Scan is so good at denying obs. Overseers are a lot faster/beefier than observers so Zerg doesn't struggle as much detecting mines, also 1 ling can be used to detonate a mine (25 mins) vs. 1 Zealot, the cheapest unit Protoss has (100mins). That sounds like a headache though, just going Colossus vs. mines seems way easier and more likely since you need the robo for detection anyway. How is that relevant? Terran doesnt make vikings unless he face colossous. Why do you write mineral cost of ling and zealot? If u have played zerg u know that 1ling can never trigger a widowmine against bio units cuz he dies before he do it while the zealot have bigger chance doing it. Also the zealot have charge which makes the zealot run in 7.5 movementspeed, almost reaches his target instant. There for sure is potential in this. I hope protoss figures something out cuz i like the chargelot/templar over colossous by far to watch
He definitely hasn't played zerg if he's complaining that a hallucinated phoenix dies to a widowmine shot lol
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On March 21 2014 07:38 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 06:31 Foxxan wrote:On March 21 2014 03:37 DinoMight wrote:On March 21 2014 02:37 Foxxan wrote:
Although its hard to micro against it, there are still some hope we might see it in the future
Talking about zealots/templar vs wm/bio.
Select 3chargelots and charge into a bio marauder->trigger widowmines(?)
Use stalkers to outrange the widowmine while terran attacks the stalkers with marauders, toss now moves back with stalkers and charge 3~ zealots to trigger mine and to do dmg to a marauder(?)
Use storm on a widowmine with abit of bio around it->Two options now:
Using stalker to one shot the wm
Charging in 2~ zealots to kill that mine and trigger other mines around there
There might be some cool micro against it
Forgot one which sounds effective:
Attack widowmine with stalker->marauder attack stalker->toss use storm on widowmine to kill the wm and do dmg to the bio units. Honestly I think the hardest part is that Viking + Scan is so good at denying obs. Overseers are a lot faster/beefier than observers so Zerg doesn't struggle as much detecting mines, also 1 ling can be used to detonate a mine (25 mins) vs. 1 Zealot, the cheapest unit Protoss has (100mins). That sounds like a headache though, just going Colossus vs. mines seems way easier and more likely since you need the robo for detection anyway. How is that relevant? Terran doesnt make vikings unless he face colossous. Why do you write mineral cost of ling and zealot? If u have played zerg u know that 1ling can never trigger a widowmine against bio units cuz he dies before he do it while the zealot have bigger chance doing it. Also the zealot have charge which makes the zealot run in 7.5 movementspeed, almost reaches his target instant. There for sure is potential in this. I hope protoss figures something out cuz i like the chargelot/templar over colossous by far to watch He definitely hasn't played zerg if he's complaining that a hallucinated phoenix dies to a widowmine shot lol
I was complaining?
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On March 21 2014 07:32 Talack wrote:
...... removing the engineering requirement of turrets would do wonders for this matchup.
Yeah and the Zerg scouts with Wiener Würstchen then....what a crap idea.
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On March 21 2014 10:21 veilchen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 07:32 Talack wrote:
...... removing the engineering requirement of turrets would do wonders for this matchup. Yeah and the Zerg scouts with Wiener Würstchen then....what a crap idea.
Yeah because blind 100 mineral turret for trying to kill an overlord that can see it from far away and just not getting in range ?
Wtf. It would just help against fast oracle and maybe DT. Won't change a shit against Z, perhaps vs muta off 2 bases when you go mech.
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On March 21 2014 10:29 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 10:21 veilchen wrote:On March 21 2014 07:32 Talack wrote:
...... removing the engineering requirement of turrets would do wonders for this matchup. Yeah and the Zerg scouts with Wiener Würstchen then....what a crap idea. Yeah because blind 100 mineral turret for trying to kill an overlord that can see it from far away and just not getting in range ? Wtf. It would just help against fast oracle and maybe DT. Won't change a shit against Z, perhaps vs muta off 2 bases when you go mech.
Only problem against Z that i could see is that it would limit Z early aggression against meching terran and make it easier to reach the 3-4 base panzer death ball.
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On March 21 2014 10:21 veilchen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 07:32 Talack wrote:
...... removing the engineering requirement of turrets would do wonders for this matchup. Yeah and the Zerg scouts with Wiener Würstchen then....what a crap idea.
You think terran is going to start ringing their base with turrets from the very begining or something? Use your head man....
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EPT
