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So these are the reasons behind that thought:
1) No matter how many times you dodge storms, one two storms normally result in the bio being crushed.
2) Storms force movement and stim from the bio force.
3) Its not as devastating vs zerg.
I wouldn't say its utterly useless because if it does hit, your dead and plus it forces the bio army to move instead of fighting back. When there was no smart cast it made sense but now i think is a far too easy of a spell that can be rather hard for the opponent to dodge (punishing too) especially when things like colossus are out.
So a combination of increased damage, radius perhaps in return for a second (or less) visual warning.
Thats my general opinion of storm and HTs in general. Perhaps the most versatile and easiest spellcaster to use in the game where everything is instant and the icying on the cake is that they are the cheapest spellcaster of them all. My other thought was perhaps smart casting removed for templars only in return for BW like damage (and the sheer epicness of people pulling off storms) but that goes against SC2 core design philosophy.
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My only annoyance with Mutalisks is the regeneration.
Why was it needed in the first place? What was wrong with Mutas in WoL?
On top of Blinding Cloud it completely killed Marine/Tank, which I found a lot more fun to watch than Widow Mines.
Partially feels like Blizzard wanted to push (if not force) Terran players to use their shiny new unit rather than tanks.
Blinding Cloud itself also is just frustrating because it's another pure hard counter like the Immortal.
I would've preferred that it reduced range by 50% but would stick to Biological units for 2-3 seconds after they leave the cloud.
That way Siege Tanks aren't hard countered into the ground and casting it on mobile units actually does something.
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IMHO, the balance in TvP should be more-less: (-> : "countered by")
Bio -> Gateway + HT -> Mech -> Gateway+Robo -> WM+Bio -> gateway + colosus -> Viking Bio -> Gateway+HT ->......
You can make some variations in compositions (especially with air units) to improve your power, to make a easier tech switch or not to be hard countered, and that´s how TvP should be balanced in my opinion.
I don´t think that smart cast storms are a problem, they are good against Bio death ball as they should be, the problem comes when mech is weak and can be destroyed with storms too.
So, if WM can do extra damage vs shields (balance against P only), storms can make LESS damage to T mech (balance against T only). Maybe it won´t solve TvP issues but at least it will force some tech switch.
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On March 20 2014 09:43 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 09:34 YyapSsap wrote:
Just a quick thought:
What if storms were tweaked to the following:
1) Gives a ~1 second visual warning.
2) Buff the damage.
I think in SC2, this is really required because of how powerful smart casting is. Blizzard have been nerfing storm damage several times (correct me if im wrong) to compensate for how easy it is to cast. I think giving some sort of warning to the Terran player might be better in return for higher damage so that it can be effective against other beefier units.
Putting a delay on it would make it utterly useless.
You kidding me now?
1second delay makes storm actually useless? No it wouldnt at all make it useless.
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On March 20 2014 18:23 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 09:43 Whitewing wrote:On March 20 2014 09:34 YyapSsap wrote:
Just a quick thought:
What if storms were tweaked to the following:
1) Gives a ~1 second visual warning.
2) Buff the damage.
I think in SC2, this is really required because of how powerful smart casting is. Blizzard have been nerfing storm damage several times (correct me if im wrong) to compensate for how easy it is to cast. I think giving some sort of warning to the Terran player might be better in return for higher damage so that it can be effective against other beefier units.
Putting a delay on it would make it utterly useless. You kidding me now? 1second delay makes storm actually useless? No it wouldnt at all make it useless.
This will make storm useless in higher level.. in bronze to gold level will still be effective.. but if you have this in GM level, toss will never get a good storm anymore.
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On March 20 2014 18:28 jarod wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 18:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 20 2014 09:43 Whitewing wrote:On March 20 2014 09:34 YyapSsap wrote:
Just a quick thought:
What if storms were tweaked to the following:
1) Gives a ~1 second visual warning.
2) Buff the damage.
I think in SC2, this is really required because of how powerful smart casting is. Blizzard have been nerfing storm damage several times (correct me if im wrong) to compensate for how easy it is to cast. I think giving some sort of warning to the Terran player might be better in return for higher damage so that it can be effective against other beefier units.
Putting a delay on it would make it utterly useless. You kidding me now? 1second delay makes storm actually useless? No it wouldnt at all make it useless. This will make storm useless in higher level.. in bronze to gold level will still be effective.. but if you have this in GM level, toss will never get a good storm anymore.
Yes. Storm for top players will simply force your units to move away from a certain location. And if Blizzard wants to keep the ability powerful enough at a pro level (how?), it will be incredibly punishing at lower levels.
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On March 20 2014 18:28 jarod wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 18:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 20 2014 09:43 Whitewing wrote:On March 20 2014 09:34 YyapSsap wrote:
Just a quick thought:
What if storms were tweaked to the following:
1) Gives a ~1 second visual warning.
2) Buff the damage.
I think in SC2, this is really required because of how powerful smart casting is. Blizzard have been nerfing storm damage several times (correct me if im wrong) to compensate for how easy it is to cast. I think giving some sort of warning to the Terran player might be better in return for higher damage so that it can be effective against other beefier units.
Putting a delay on it would make it utterly useless. You kidding me now? 1second delay makes storm actually useless? No it wouldnt at all make it useless. This will make storm useless in higher level.. in bronze to gold level will still be effective.. but if you have this in GM level, toss will never get a good storm anymore.
The gameplay says otherwise right now.
Many top players already sit in storm more than 1second. Its not unusual at all
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are we really back to complain about storm now?
storm is fine.
Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc
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On March 20 2014 20:21 ETisME wrote:
are we really back to complain about storm now?
storm is fine.
Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc
Can you please stop with your cynism. We are discussing storm, thats all not complaining.
Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc
Thats your opinion, mine is that storm is not designed with smartcast
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On March 20 2014 20:25 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 20:21 ETisME wrote:
are we really back to complain about storm now?
storm is fine.
Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc Can you please stop with your cynism. We are discussing storm, thats all not complaining. Show nested quote +Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc Thats your opinion, mine is that storm is not designed with smartcast
how I am bring up cynism when I am the one who is fine with storm being the way it is while you thinking "storm is not designed with smartcast"
It isn't an opinion when it is clear that good protoss do those things to land good storms.
Rain drop defend is with hts storm and feedback
Hero goes for some storm drop in TvP
I think it was parting who would load up hts into warp prism to dodge emp and land better storms.
Sora with his hts flanks etc
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On March 20 2014 20:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 20:25 Foxxan wrote:On March 20 2014 20:21 ETisME wrote:
are we really back to complain about storm now?
storm is fine.
Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc Can you please stop with your cynism. We are discussing storm, thats all not complaining. Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc Thats your opinion, mine is that storm is not designed with smartcast how I am bring up cynism when I am the one who is fine with storm being the way it is while you thinking "storm is not designed with smartcast" It isn't an opinion when it is clear that good protoss do those things to land good storms. Rain drop defend is with hts storm and feedback Hero goes for some storm drop in TvP I think it was parting who would load up hts into warp prism to dodge emp and land better storms. Sora with his hts flanks etc
how I am bring up cynism when I am the one who is fine with storm being the way it is while you thinking "storm is not designed with smartcast"
But i said that after your first comment(?)
You were cynical cuz we were discussing it, not complaining.
It was you who looked looked at it negative, not me.
Ye exaclty, defending with storm is piss easy if u ask me.
Warpin->wait 5sec->feedback medivac, attack with zealots
"sick play right?" no its not.
Not designed with smartcast. Look even in broodwar storm were worse perse:
1) Units spread themself out more
2) No smartcast on the templars
3) A short delay before the storm gets cast(like 0.5sec~)
But anyway
Someone said it would make the storm "completely useless" if the first second didnt do any damage.
But if we look at the top terrans, they stand far more than 1sec many times in the storm.
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On March 20 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
Blinding Cloud itself also is just frustrating because it's another pure hard counter like the Immortal.
I would've preferred that it reduced range by 50% but would stick to Biological units for 2-3 seconds after they leave the cloud.
That way Siege Tanks aren't hard countered into the ground and casting it on mobile units actually does something.
Are you kidding?
ZvT is as fine as can be. Any nerf will make Z use even more of that terrible SH. (And nobody, not the T nor the Z, wants that)
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On March 20 2014 21:20 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 20:44 ETisME wrote:On March 20 2014 20:25 Foxxan wrote:On March 20 2014 20:21 ETisME wrote:
are we really back to complain about storm now?
storm is fine.
Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc Can you please stop with your cynism. We are discussing storm, thats all not complaining. Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc Thats your opinion, mine is that storm is not designed with smartcast how I am bring up cynism when I am the one who is fine with storm being the way it is while you thinking "storm is not designed with smartcast" It isn't an opinion when it is clear that good protoss do those things to land good storms. Rain drop defend is with hts storm and feedback Hero goes for some storm drop in TvP I think it was parting who would load up hts into warp prism to dodge emp and land better storms. Sora with his hts flanks etc Show nested quote +how I am bring up cynism when I am the one who is fine with storm being the way it is while you thinking "storm is not designed with smartcast"
But i said that after your first comment(?) You were cynical cuz we were discussing it, not complaining. It was you who looked looked at it negative, not me. Ye exaclty, defending with storm is piss easy if u ask me. Warpin->wait 5sec->feedback medivac, attack with zealots "sick play right?" no its not. Not designed with smartcast. Look even in broodwar storm were worse perse: 1) Units spread themself out more 2) No smartcast on the templars 3) A short delay before the storm gets cast(like 0.5sec~)
...
you are discussing about it before I even posted.
"No it dont.
You hit that fungal=What can the opponent do?=Thats a boring/bad unit interaction.
You hit a storm=You can move out of it at anytime. The sc2 storm is bad tho cuz its not designed with smartcast in it.
"
I won't even have talked about storm is fine if you didn't raise up you have a problem with it being smart cast.
And storm defense.
Yes, warp in and wait 5 seconds lol
Protoss don't want to warp in zealots if they don't have to.
Good terran spot HTs right away and don't get feedback.
Protoss needs to have some zealots and hts on each base to defend potential drop, army contains less storm.
And even top level protoss gets doom dropped, I guess it is just too piss easy for them?
sometimes it's not as simple as you think.
I don't even know why you brought up BW storm to compare.
Storm in SC2 is working fine.
Check the top upvoted thread on reddit now, it's a storm gif.
People like it, people are fine with it and this is why there hasn't been much discussion about it because it isn't a problem and no one think of it as a problem except for some people, including you
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On March 20 2014 21:26 veilchen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
Blinding Cloud itself also is just frustrating because it's another pure hard counter like the Immortal.
I would've preferred that it reduced range by 50% but would stick to Biological units for 2-3 seconds after they leave the cloud.
That way Siege Tanks aren't hard countered into the ground and casting it on mobile units actually does something. Are you kidding? ZvT is as fine as can be. Any nerf will make Z use even more of that terrible SH. (And nobody, not the T nor the Z, wants that)
I even think mech is being OP right now, at least at my level (highM/lowGM). I mean, I just never lose TvZ with mech except some early/midgame roach timing where i'm being too greedy. You just need to scout actively to don't lose to stupid shit like muta when you don't have AA, but once you stabilized on 3 bases, it's easy as fuck in almost every maps. If it's Frost you just camp on 4 bases with heavy hellion harass till 2/2 and then staight up win with raven tank thor hellbat, almost a-clic. If it's a smaller map like Heavy Rain, you can abuse chokes and narrow paths, and do some sick timing push.
Mvp style with heavy BFH is really really strong imho.
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On March 20 2014 21:30 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 21:20 Foxxan wrote:On March 20 2014 20:44 ETisME wrote:On March 20 2014 20:25 Foxxan wrote:On March 20 2014 20:21 ETisME wrote:
are we really back to complain about storm now?
storm is fine.
Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc Can you please stop with your cynism. We are discussing storm, thats all not complaining. Look at how good protoss spread hts all across the base and scatter around for storm flanks or storm drops on mineral base or get onto warp prism to dodge emp etc Thats your opinion, mine is that storm is not designed with smartcast how I am bring up cynism when I am the one who is fine with storm being the way it is while you thinking "storm is not designed with smartcast" It isn't an opinion when it is clear that good protoss do those things to land good storms. Rain drop defend is with hts storm and feedback Hero goes for some storm drop in TvP I think it was parting who would load up hts into warp prism to dodge emp and land better storms. Sora with his hts flanks etc how I am bring up cynism when I am the one who is fine with storm being the way it is while you thinking "storm is not designed with smartcast"
But i said that after your first comment(?) You were cynical cuz we were discussing it, not complaining. It was you who looked looked at it negative, not me. Ye exaclty, defending with storm is piss easy if u ask me. Warpin->wait 5sec->feedback medivac, attack with zealots "sick play right?" no its not. Not designed with smartcast. Look even in broodwar storm were worse perse: 1) Units spread themself out more 2) No smartcast on the templars 3) A short delay before the storm gets cast(like 0.5sec~) ... you are discussing about it before I even posted. You think storm isn't designed with smart cast and lead to the discussion. I won't even have talked about storm is fine if you didn't raise up you have a problem with it being smart cast. And storm defense. Yes, warp in and wait 5 seconds lol Protoss don't warp in zealots. Good terran spot HTs right away and don't get feedback. Protoss needs to have some zealots and hts on each base to defend potential drop, army contains less storm. sometimes it's not as simple as you think. I don't even know why you brought up BW storm to compare. Storm in SC2 is working fine. Check the top upvoted thread on reddit now, it's a storm gif. People like it, people are fine with it and this is why there hasn't been much discussion about it because it isn't a problem and no one think of it as a problem except for some people, including you.
Okay dont know what your problem is.
The discussion were from yesterday - it didnt start with storm it started with other spells.
I feel its to small of a counterplay in general the sc2 spells and then it lead to storm, i just gave my thought about it
So i brought the storm up "i dont think its designed with smartcast in it".
And here u are again cynical. Telling me i have a problem with it.
So let me get this straight if i know something can be improved - ANYthing in this world it means i have a problem with that particular thing in the first place?
The discussion today is(today)
You called me Complaining (today)
"Making the first second do no damage for the opponent able to react better"
"will make it useless"
"no it wont, why would it make it useless"
I feel terran players stand in the storm longer than 1-2-3 seconds(yes even The Terrans). Especially many fights at difference places or if
that terran player just looks away 1-2 sec, sometimes 3sec.
I don't even know why you brought up BW storm to compare.
Storm in SC2 is working fine.
Could it be to try and explain what i mean with "not desgiend with smartcast" ?
Somekind of information.
Yes, warp in and wait 5 seconds lol
Protoss don't warp in zealots.
Good terran spot HTs right away and don't get feedback.
Okay. So its more in line of "warpin and wait 5sec" but no need to feedback
cuz the terran backs off.
My point is the defence from protoss is Super easy. Thats my point.
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right, so did your opinion change on smartcasting is not good on storm today since yesterday?
nope.
I don't care how it all started, you stated "The sc2 storm is bad tho cuz its not designed with smartcast in it." and that's all that matters and relevant for now.
And there is no point comparing it with BW storm because of all the difference in meta, control group, clumping etc.
it is working in sc2, that's all that matters.
even if it isn't designed with smart casting, it IS working.
And yes, you think it can be improved is because it isn't what you like.
You want it to be improved as you visioned.
That's all because your opinion is skewed as it being "The sc2 storm is bad tho cuz its not designed with smartcast in it." in the first place.
And sadly it seems you are one of the few who actually think storm isn't good/exciting enough.
It's like people argue against clumping.
It's not a problem if you don't think it's a problem. Players spread and clump according to what situation, you clump against pure lings and spread when banelings come in for early timings.
it's a problem if you prefer a more spread out army formation etc.
as for drop defense, not everything can look sick.
you might as well complain about muta drop defense is not sick or obs sniping is not sick looking too
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That's all because your opinion is skewed as it being "The sc2 storm is bad tho cuz its not designed with smartcast in it." in the first place.
I slipped the word bad in there.
All iam saying is i would like the storm to more about decision for protoss, some drawbacks. I dont like the
spam thing about it but w.e u dont rly care what i think
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On March 20 2014 22:17 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +That's all because your opinion is skewed as it being "The sc2 storm is bad tho cuz its not designed with smartcast in it." in the first place. I slipped the word bad in there. All iam saying is i would like the storm to more about decision for protoss, some drawbacks. I dont like the spam thing about it but w.e u dont rly care what i think
there are drawbacks, every one less storm can be game changing.
The power of storm leads to splitting and bio poke or ghost etc to pick off HTs.
it's just that you think you must have cool interactions with the spell itself for the spell to be interesting.
you need to see it as : the power of the spell leads to cool interactions.
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This is purely theoretical since psionic storm will never be changed, but I was replaying Diablo II on my sorceress and I thought that there really was a wealth of options available for area of effect spells.
-meteor: damage in a circle at a targeted location
-lightning: damage in a line originating from the caster
-nova: damage in a circle originating from the caster
-fire wall: damage in a line at a targeted location
There's more, but these are just the most generic ones (although meteor has some special effects to it). Personally I thought that fire wall was the most interesting out of these, especially so because the angle of the line damage depends on the position of the caster. Therefore it works perfectly well together with smart cast and doesn't trivialize spell casting.
I wonder how the game would look like with templar having a psionic attack based on fire wall to replace storm.
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EPT
