EPTIn any event, this match shows basically every problem I have with the mechanic.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 928
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
In any event, this match shows basically every problem I have with the mechanic. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: You specifically criticize spells that are new in sc2. Then you say "I'd much prefer it if fungal worked like plague", i think it fits well together  But whatever, i don't agree with your claim that the spells in sc2 are awfully designed, they are just too spamable for my liking (smartcast) So because it comes later it is better designed? I can agree with higher manacost (that makes it less spamable, something i also think is bad) But overall i don't agree with it either, the real problem of sc2 is smartcast imo. "The sc2 storm is bad tho cuz its not designed with smartcast in it" what? It comes later with a high mana cost. Big difference then coming early with lower manacost. The spells can be dispelled. Lockdown is 100mana,late and singeltarget - and only works on mechanical Maelstorm is 100mana, expensive unit to get and only works on biological units. Can be dispelled Also note the pathing is different. The units spread themself out. Also note, zerg units are usually weak so the best way to stun here is to hit expensive units. Also note, using maelstorm against terran bio wouldnt be the best either cuz medic can dispell it. So the differences are very huge. The enemy has more counterplay then sc2 ever will have if u compare this to forcefield, fungal. The spells in sc2 are lame as hell is my opinion I hope u can agree with these stuff now also and not only the purely mana cost thing "The sc2 storm is bad tho cuz its not designed with smartcast in it" what? "what" "what" you say I know u had that argument with that guy that said designing spells with smartcast could be good and u said "what" all the time to him so iam not gonna write anything deep here | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
I would also say that strong positional control is acceptable if you're encouraged to spread out over the map (see lalush and his asymmetry vs defender's advantage theory), another reason why it worked out better in bw. And having more melee units as a race limits the size of the effect by a lot, since you can't shoot out of the swarm so easily. How would you describe your problem with dark swarm particularly though? | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 20 2014 04:53 Foxxan wrote: It comes later with a high mana cost. Big difference then coming early with lower manacost. The spells can be dispelled. Lockdown is 100mana,late and singeltarget - and only works on mechanical Maelstorm is 100mana, expensive unit to get and only works on biological units. Can be dispelled Also note the pathing is different. The units spread themself out. Also note, zerg units are usually weak so the best way to stun here is to hit expensive units. Also note, using maelstorm against terran bio wouldnt be the best either cuz medic can dispell it. So the differences are very huge. The enemy has more counterplay then sc2 ever will have if u compare this to forcefield, fungal. The spells in sc2 are lame as hell is my opinion I hope u can agree with these stuff now also and not only the purely mana cost thing "what" "what" you say I know u had that argument with that guy that said designing spells with smartcast could be good and u said "what" all the time to him so iam not gonna write anything deep here I agree with the mana cost, so i am not sure why you mention it again. Well whatever, i don't think they are lame cause of the design, they are only lame cause they get spammed.. Storm was great in bw, in sc2 nobody really is amazed by it. (even though it is a pretty "boring" spell, damage wow) Yeah right, maybe you should read that conversation again and your post too WHAT do you mean with "storm is bad tho cuz its not designed with smartcast in it" i don't get what you mean with that, storm uses smartcast too in sc2 obviously.. I mean sure, forcefield and fungal the way they are implemented are kinda lame, but would they be lame if you couldn't cast 5 spells per second? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On March 20 2014 05:19 bo1b wrote: My problem isn't so much the result but the design behind it. I very much dislike abilities which cause localised immunity. I wrote something similar in the starbow in regards to miss % when shooting upwards, however in the end it may prove to just be a necessary evil. What's wrong with localized immunity? (not sure what you mean by it, do you just mean absolute position control?) Take spider mines, for instance. Siege tanks being able to siege up a position and be unassailable is potentially broken, but that's not the case. You can strengthen a position by adding spider mines, but they're a commitment as you could say that mines cost resources or are limited in some fashion. This makes is so that controlling a position requires some set-up time (strategic planning) and some investment, so there is a real risk/reward aspect to it. Starbow has spider mines, but in some patches vultures were comparatively stronger than they were in brood war and players were encouraged to make many more vultures and this resulted in an effect where mines were like playing vs swarm hosts, with infinite mine fields you had to clear through with never an end in sight. It's better now, and you have to be pickier about where to place the mines and this makes army movements feel more meaningful. (imo) I think dark swarm is acceptable if defilers have to put themselves at risk for casting it, if defilers are a limited resource, if there are ways to break dark swarm-empowered positions, if it's limited in effect, and if you're encouraged to use it offensively more than defensively. I don't know why it would be bad if those conditions are met, which you can definitely be confident in if you design the game around it. | ||
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Velvet_Llama
United States25 Posts
I know one of the complaints about it is that is able to fulfill too many functions- it's a scout, it gives vision for blinks, it's a powerful spell caster, ect ect. If it ran out of energy when leaving a toss base, might that force the Protoss player to use it more as either a good scout/early game harass unit OR use it as an early game defensive unit? You'd still be able to use it to scout and gain vision, but you wouldn't be able to throw out time warps and recall. Or you could leave it home and use photon overcharge and time warp defensively. I guess this would essentially eliminate the recall ability. What do you guys think, any merit to this? | ||
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vRadiatioNv
United States139 Posts
Stephano was streaming with commentary earlier today and he showed us a ZvZ replay which resulted in a tie. Essentially he shows that, once a player hits a maxed Swarm Host/Infestor/Viper composition with enough spores, that player can then force a tie on basically any map which has a high ground area with a small ramp. Here is where he shows the replay: http://www.twitch.tv/egstephano/b/512453298?t=56m10s Personally, I think it's a big problem. I know a lot of people bash SH all the time and I certainly would love to see Blizzard make them more interesting but I almost feel this might simply be a result of Zerg having little to no siege-breaking options. We've now seen Soulkey vs Reality's Mech turtle have this result and what Stephano showed here certainly looked unbreakable for Zerg as well. I thought the whole point of BL and SH was they are supposed to be able to break these kinds of entrenched positions, lol. Locusts can't get up the ramp and BL 9.5 range isn't really enough to break it. I do feel something needs to be changed but I'm unsure what. But what do you guys think? Does something need to be changed and, if so, what? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 20 2014 04:28 bo1b wrote: Zerg has an incredible 25% winrate in proleague vs terran, I'm sure that them mass mutas are causing massive amounts of problems. FanTaSy > Life TurN > Action Flash > Solar Maru > EffOrt MarineKing < Life FanTaSy > Sniper MarineKing > soO Mvp < RorO Flash < DRG FanTaSy > RorO Cure < DRG MarineKing > RorO Bbyong > ByuL Maru > Kassia MarineKing > TRUE Dream > Shine Did anything shock you in those games, apart from the Bbyong vs ByuL one I suppose? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 20 2014 08:34 Grumbels wrote: Why is zerg doing badly by the way? Is it still bio builds that are powerful, or is it the resurgence of mech builds? (since I never see TvZ's anymore, so I don't know the meta) From memory: Life was sniped by an ingenious new build. Action went Roach all-in after he took some damage vs Hellion harass + bio/Hellbats timing and his opponent held. Solar was sniped by a sharp 3-bases mech all-in. EffOrt lost to a proxy 2 rax on Frost. RorO took a lot of damage against FanTaSy's Reapers/Hellions/Banshees harass and was behind in the macro game afterwards. RorO had a late bane nest and lost against a 30 seconds quicker than usual Medivac push in his game vs MarineKing. Sniper lost a lot of drones to an unscouted 2 fact BFH attack. soO lost a scouted lift to gold into 2 rax. ByuL lost against mech on 6 bases with lots of Ravens. Kassia lost against Maru's Reapers/Hellions/Banshee harass. Shine essentially lost against Dream's Reapers/Hellions/Banshee harass (he tried to Roach all-in afterwards but Dream held). TRUE suffered a lot of damage against an unscouted 2 fact BFH attack. Basically poor defence/scouting seems a recurring theme. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On March 20 2014 08:31 TheDwf wrote: FanTaSy > Life TurN > Action Flash > Solar Maru > EffOrt MarineKing < Life FanTaSy > Sniper MarineKing > soO Mvp < RorO Flash < DRG FanTaSy > RorO Cure < DRG MarineKing > RorO Bbyong > ByuL Maru > Kassia MarineKing > TRUE Dream > Shine Did anything shock you in those games, apart from the Bbyong vs ByuL one I suppose? I actually wasn't trying to make a balance statement outside of mutas aren't running rampant and winning every game really. The only thing that really shocks me is the map pool, and just how easy it is to get an insane position with mech/secure a 4th quite easily. Outboxer needs to go. In any event, I said this a few pages ago and I'm sticking to it, zergs underperforming atm has less to do with racial imbalance and more to do with personal performance/zergs choosing weird builds (drg vs maru, a 6 pool?), reacting badly (roro vs mkp) and not playing up to there abilities (that drg vs flash ace match). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 20 2014 08:55 bo1b wrote: I actually wasn't trying to make a balance statement outside of mutas aren't running rampant and winning every game really. The only thing that really shocks me is the map pool, and just how easy it is to get an insane position with mech/secure a 4th quite easily. Outboxer needs to go. I know, I was just asking. Outboxer didn't seem that hot for mech when Mvp played against RorO, but Mvp's build was iffy. I didn't see the first part of Bbyong vs ByuL but it seemed odd to me Bbyong was able to secure his island. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
What if storms were tweaked to the following: 1) Gives a ~1 second visual warning. 2) Buff the damage. I think in SC2, this is really required because of how powerful smart casting is. Blizzard have been nerfing storm damage several times (correct me if im wrong) to compensate for how easy it is to cast. I think giving some sort of warning to the Terran player might be better in return for higher damage so that it can be effective against other beefier units. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 20 2014 09:34 YyapSsap wrote: Just a quick thought: What if storms were tweaked to the following: 1) Gives a ~1 second visual warning. 2) Buff the damage. I think in SC2, this is really required because of how powerful smart casting is. Blizzard have been nerfing storm damage several times (correct me if im wrong) to compensate for how easy it is to cast. I think giving some sort of warning to the Terran player might be better in return for higher damage so that it can be effective against other beefier units. Putting a delay on it would make it utterly useless. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On March 20 2014 09:00 TheDwf wrote: I know, I was just asking. Outboxer didn't seem that hot for mech when Mvp played against RorO, but Mvp's build was iffy. I didn't see the first part of Bbyong vs ByuL but it seemed odd to me Bbyong was able to secure his island. I don't mean to come off as hostile. The problem I have with the map is that it becomes so easy to seal off access to the forth and third, while being able force zerg into a horrendous position to attack into that force if there are enough siege tanks. In all honesty there have been so few games of tvz on that map that I probably shouldn't be making accusations towards it, but there is just something about the way that tanks and marines can siege up, and simultaneously block access to the fourth and kill it which makes me worried. At the same time it's pretty nifty to see, as it's been a while since that sort of engagement had to really be carefully done by the zerg. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 20 2014 09:46 bo1b wrote: I don't mean to come off as hostile. The problem I have with the map is that it becomes so easy to seal off access to the forth and third, while being able force zerg into a horrendous position to attack into that force if there are enough siege tanks. In all honesty there have been so few games of tvz on that map that I probably shouldn't be making accusations towards it, but there is just something about the way that tanks and marines can siege up, and simultaneously block access to the fourth and kill it which makes me worried. At the same time it's pretty nifty to see, as it's been a while since that sort of engagement had to really be carefully done by the zerg. I think what Zergs mostly struggle with on that map is the two paths around. It makes SHs very predictable and basically the Terran can counterpin the swarmhosts with fewer tanks and then do damage from the other side. Once positioned, the hosts always have to rally into the tanks and cant force bigger siegelines by threatening other areas with a different rally point. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On March 20 2014 09:34 YyapSsap wrote: Just a quick thought: What if storms were tweaked to the following: 1) Gives a ~1 second visual warning. 2) Buff the damage. I think in SC2, this is really required because of how powerful smart casting is. Blizzard have been nerfing storm damage several times (correct me if im wrong) to compensate for how easy it is to cast. I think giving some sort of warning to the Terran player might be better in return for higher damage so that it can be effective against other beefier units. We tried flamestrike in wc3 and it waen't a fun ability because it was useless vs good players. At leaet storm does guaranteed damage and is reliable. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On March 20 2014 09:34 YyapSsap wrote: Just a quick thought: What if storms were tweaked to the following: 1) Gives a ~1 second visual warning. 2) Buff the damage. I think in SC2, this is really required because of how powerful smart casting is. Blizzard have been nerfing storm damage several times (correct me if im wrong) to compensate for how easy it is to cast. I think giving some sort of warning to the Terran player might be better in return for higher damage so that it can be effective against other beefier units. Blizzard have never nerfed storm damage since WOL beta. They only reduced the radius to 1.5 from 2 back in the beta. The other nerf was the amulet nerf in WOL but that was more a HT+WG nerf than a direct Storm nerf. | ||
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