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On March 19 2014 21:18 Grumbels wrote:
Why can't they make the twilight council more expensive? Slow down protoss teching options on a more basic level.
I think because most people like twilight tech and think it is the most fun way to play Protoss. Assuming it becomes too commital for macro purposes, Protoss gets stuck with only the sledgehammer options of Robo-based playstyles.
I think a Forge requirement for blink would be decent (you always get forges in macrogames, so the only time you will get a twilight but no forge is if you want to do some blink rush, which is exactly what should be targeted), or tinkering with Twilight build time.
I still think making MSC a defense-only unit would be best but I know that is unrealistic to expect as far as Blizzard is concerned.
I think that would be a big problem for PvZ and they'd have to design recall back, which might cause other problems again.
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On March 19 2014 21:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:18 Grumbels wrote:
Why can't they make the twilight council more expensive? Slow down protoss teching options on a more basic level. I think because most people like twilight tech and think it is the most fun way to play Protoss. Assuming it becomes too commital for macro purposes, Protoss gets stuck with only the sledgehammer options of Robo-based playstyles. I think a Forge requirement for blink would be decent (you always get forges in macrogames, so the only time you will get a twilight but no forge is if you want to do some blink rush, which is exactly what should be targeted), or tinkering with Twilight build time. Show nested quote +I still think making MSC a defense-only unit would be best but I know that is unrealistic to expect as far as Blizzard is concerned. I think that would be a big problem for PvZ and they'd have to design recall back, which might cause other problems again.
I think that's really dangerous by the way. You can't balance an RTS game around abilities that you like and dislike. It ruins the strategy part of the game and leads to excesses like this abuse of blink. If colossi and immortals are too boring, that's a different problem, but not one that should be solved by making them very weak options.
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On March 19 2014 21:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:18 Grumbels wrote:
Why can't they make the twilight council more expensive? Slow down protoss teching options on a more basic level. I think because most people like twilight tech and think it is the most fun way to play Protoss. Assuming it becomes too commital for macro purposes, Protoss gets stuck with only the sledgehammer options of Robo-based playstyles. I think a Forge requirement for blink would be decent (you always get forges in macrogames, so the only time you will get a twilight but no forge is if you want to do some blink rush, which is exactly what should be targeted), or tinkering with Twilight build time. Show nested quote +I still think making MSC a defense-only unit would be best but I know that is unrealistic to expect as far as Blizzard is concerned. I think that would be a big problem for PvZ and they'd have to design recall back, which might cause other problems again.
Yeah I guess so. I am not really optimistic about it because that is sort of change they would probably dare to do only in expansion.
I have a feeling they will remove like 2 good blink maps and leave everything as it is, which will basically do nothing.
Because changing entire map pool would again be too big step for Blizzard and they would somehow need to allow reaper scouting but also make map bad for blink at the same time somehow...
So despite their own admission of blink being heavily favored, it will probably be a minor change I am afraid...
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Make it so that only stalkers with shields left can blink
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what about a change so that blink is equivalent to the blink dagger in DotA2 : everytime the unit takes some damage, the blink cooldown is set at 3sec
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On March 19 2014 21:36 VieuxSinge wrote:
what about a change so that blink is equivalent to the blink dagger in DotA2 : everytime the unit takes some damage, the blink cooldown is set at 3sec
How about we just fix the problem of how powerful blink is early game rather then neuter the ability for late game. If they just made the gast cost like 150 more and another 30 seconds for the research the problem would be gone
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I was watching avilo's stream when he was playing as zerg vs a meching terran who made a viking raven ball. I think what avilo did and said made a lot of sense instead of muta's he was massing vipers on top of his hydra army to combat the terran and you still have the option to tech switch in an instant later on.
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On March 19 2014 21:43 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:36 VieuxSinge wrote:
what about a change so that blink is equivalent to the blink dagger in DotA2 : everytime the unit takes some damage, the blink cooldown is set at 3sec How about we just fix the problem of how powerful blink is early game rather then neuter the ability for late game. If they just made the gast cost like 150 more and another 30 seconds for the research the problem would be gone
I would rather make it harder to execute, so that it stays viable with good micro.
Altering the timings is a pretty boring idea to fix possible imbalances.
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On March 19 2014 21:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:43 bo1b wrote:On March 19 2014 21:36 VieuxSinge wrote:
what about a change so that blink is equivalent to the blink dagger in DotA2 : everytime the unit takes some damage, the blink cooldown is set at 3sec How about we just fix the problem of how powerful blink is early game rather then neuter the ability for late game. If they just made the gast cost like 150 more and another 30 seconds for the research the problem would be gone I would rather make it harder to execute, so that it stays viable with good micro. Altering the timings is a pretty boring idea to fix possible imbalances.
Not really. With all this talk about blink "all in" people obviously forgot it is actually a 2 base blink timing attack.
What better way to fix too strong timing attack then by increasing the cost of the blink or duration of the research?
We saw from those IEM stats (even though it is small sample size) that blink had like 80% win rate if it hit before 9 min mark and was much weaker in games when it hit a bit later than that.
It is the easiest way to influence the problem directly without nerfing blink as an ability or making things complicated for the map makers.
You can't really balance protoss easy with maps. For other races, doing something as simple as increasing travel time from base to base will fix most timing attacks just by map changes, without affecting anything else. You can't do that for protoss because WG ignores map size.
So map changes must be more significant. To make map bad or not too good for blink but still to allow for reaper scouts because terran needs that on every map and in every matchup.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 19 2014 21:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Make it so that only stalkers with shields left can blink
So you say that once your stalkers are hit by EMP, they are doomed and you cannot reposition them? Interesting...
Isn't blinking micro all about taking the shield damage and THEN blink away, once the shield is gone? ...
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On March 19 2014 21:36 VieuxSinge wrote:
what about a change so that blink is equivalent to the blink dagger in DotA2 : everytime the unit takes some damage, the blink cooldown is set at 3sec
This would make blink micro literally impossible. The whole point is you wait for them to take shield damage then blink them back. If you can't blink them once they've taken damage they will just continue to take damage and die.
Need I remind you what happens to anyone in Dota who relies on Blink as an escape against slow/stun.
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On March 19 2014 22:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Make it so that only stalkers with shields left can blink So you say that once your stalkers are hit by EMP, they are doomed and you cannot reposition them? Interesting... Isn't blinking micro all about taking the shield damage and THEN blink away, once the shield is gone? ...
This is only true when you try to pick off a couple units. In longer engagements, you actually blink when you are on low hp.
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On March 19 2014 22:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Make it so that only stalkers with shields left can blink So you say that once your stalkers are hit by EMP, they are doomed and you cannot reposition them? Interesting... Isn't blinking micro all about taking the shield damage and THEN blink away, once the shield is gone? ...
Well i am not sure if terran wants to emp stalkers.
And yeah that is pretty much my point here, you want to take as much dmg as possible on your shields, but optimally NOT lose any hp, that's why i think my solution isn't that bad.
On March 19 2014 22:03 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 19 2014 21:43 bo1b wrote:On March 19 2014 21:36 VieuxSinge wrote:
what about a change so that blink is equivalent to the blink dagger in DotA2 : everytime the unit takes some damage, the blink cooldown is set at 3sec How about we just fix the problem of how powerful blink is early game rather then neuter the ability for late game. If they just made the gast cost like 150 more and another 30 seconds for the research the problem would be gone I would rather make it harder to execute, so that it stays viable with good micro. Altering the timings is a pretty boring idea to fix possible imbalances. Not really. With all this talk about blink "all in" people obviously forgot it is actually a 2 base blink timing attack.What better way to fix too strong timing attack then by increasing the cost of the blink or duration of the research? We saw from those IEM stats (even though it is small sample size) that blink had like 80% win rate if it hit before 9 min mark and was much weaker in games when it hit a bit later than that. It is the easiest way to influence the problem directly without nerfing blink as an ability or making things complicated for the map makers. You can't really balance protoss easy with maps. For other races, doing something as simple as increasing travel time from base to base will fix most timing attacks just by map changes, without affecting anything else. You can't do that for protoss because WG ignores map size. So map changes must be more significant. To make map bad or not too good for blink but still to allow for reaper scouts because terran needs that on every map and in every matchup.
Yeah it obviously would fix it, but it is a lazy fix and a boring one cause you just "remove" the strat from the game.
I prefer altering the difficulty of execution over the timing, but maybe that is just me
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:08 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:03 deacon.frost wrote:On March 19 2014 21:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Make it so that only stalkers with shields left can blink So you say that once your stalkers are hit by EMP, they are doomed and you cannot reposition them? Interesting... Isn't blinking micro all about taking the shield damage and THEN blink away, once the shield is gone? ... This is only true when you try to pick off a couple units. In longer engagements, you actually blink when you are on low hp.
(or you want to kill vikings)
Yup, I agree. Can you imagine scv pulls with ghosts to emp the stalkers so your vikings can shoot colossus safely? 
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I've become a little bit cynical about blink as an ability though. If you think about its three main uses, none of them require an earth shattering amount of decision making:
- blink forward to intercept
- blink backwards to escape
- individually blink hurt stalkers back (whack-a-mole)
I don't really see what blink adds to the game here, and it's a bit much to hear protoss players wax on about how slightly nerfing the cooldown is gutting the world's most skillful ability. In fact, blink sometimes rather reminds me of how warpgate can function: reinforce anywhere at will without it necessarily requiring amazing strategic planning; and with blink it is: ability to perfectly place your stalkers independent of any obstacles. i.e. it gives amazing benefits that can feel like you haven't earned them.
I do like the ability, doing quick snipes and dodging projectiles was enjoyable in Warcraft 3, and in Starcraft II you can use it for more complicated battle positioning moves and actively outmaneuvering your opponent. Let's just not pretend like it's the best ability in the game, because it does come with downsides.
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I actually detest the ability, both from a balance point and a design point. The skill that it adds is not worth at all the problems it causes with map design, the addition to yet another mechanic that protoss gets to have making pvx matches totally different to others, since it's put on what is supposed to be one of protoss's massable units, the unit itself is awful and we get so many band aid fixes as a response.
I basically don't like it at all.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:12 Grumbels wrote:
I've become a little bit cynical about blink as an ability though. If you think about its three main uses, none of them require an earth shattering amount of decision making:
- blink forward to intercept
- blink backwards to escape
- individually blink hurt stalkers back (whack-a-mole)
I don't really see what blink adds to the game here, and it's a bit much to hear protoss players wax on about how slightly nerfing the cooldown is gutting the world's most skillful ability. In fact, blink sometimes rather reminds me of how warpgate can function: reinforce anywhere at will without it necessarily requiring amazing strategic planning; and with blink it is: ability to perfectly place your stalkers independent of any obstacles. i.e. it gives amazing benefits that can feel like you haven't earned them.
I do like the ability, doing quick snipes and dodging projectiles was enjoyable in Warcraft 3, and in Starcraft II you can use it for more complicated battle positioning moves and actively outmaneuvering your opponent. Let's just not pretend like it's the best ability in the game, because it does come with downsides.
The cool-down has to be so big, that bunch of stalkers can escape from stimmed bio with CS. Now you lose 1 or 2 stalkers, if there's good terrain - 0. Make the cooldown longer, you can lose 3 or 4(and 1 or 2 at the best case) which can make the medivac sniping in mid-game useless, because losing some stalkers for sure to 1 wrongly placed medivac? Nah :/
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On March 19 2014 22:12 Grumbels wrote:
I've become a little bit cynical about blink as an ability though. If you think about its three main uses, none of them require an earth shattering amount of decision making:
- blink forward to intercept
- blink backwards to escape
- individually blink hurt stalkers back (whack-a-mole)
I don't really see what blink adds to the game here, and it's a bit much to hear protoss players wax on about how slightly nerfing the cooldown is gutting the world's most skillful ability. In fact, blink sometimes rather reminds me of how warpgate can function: reinforce anywhere at will without it necessarily requiring amazing strategic planning; and with blink it is: ability to perfectly place your stalkers independent of any obstacles. i.e. it gives amazing benefits that can feel like you haven't earned them.
I do like the ability, doing quick snipes and dodging projectiles was enjoyable in Warcraft 3, and in Starcraft II you can use it for more complicated battle positioning moves and actively outmaneuvering your opponent. Let's just not pretend like it's the best ability in the game, because it does come with downsides.
You can say the same about any ability in the game.
Stim: Press T. When it wears off press T.
EMP: When you see templar, EMP them.
Cloak: When you don't want him to see you press C and you become invisible.
Fungal: Press F and try to get as many of his units in it as possible
PDD: When he attacks you make a PDD and he can't attack you.
...
You get my point.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying and all these abilities have intricacies to them I'm not explaining. You want to stim at the right time, and not too early. You want to wait to fungal until you can get a good flank or good baneling hits... etc.
The same applies to Blink. I think you view it this way because of TvP Blink allins being so prevalent and because people are getting tired of it. But fundamentally the abilitiy is pretty neat, it allows for some interesting things to happen and it makes the game better. That and it's one of the only ways to deal with Muta before you can get Phoenixes out.
That CJ herO vs. Hyun game at IEM Katowice shows just how exciting Blink can be as an ability and the awesome micro potential it has. His Blink micro was as perfect as can be and any less would have lost him that game.
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On March 19 2014 22:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:03 deacon.frost wrote:On March 19 2014 21:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Make it so that only stalkers with shields left can blink So you say that once your stalkers are hit by EMP, they are doomed and you cannot reposition them? Interesting... Isn't blinking micro all about taking the shield damage and THEN blink away, once the shield is gone? ... Well i am not sure if terran wants to emp stalkers. And yeah that is pretty much my point here, you want to take as much dmg as possible on your shields, but optimally NOT lose any hp, that's why i think my solution isn't that bad. Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:03 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 19 2014 21:43 bo1b wrote:On March 19 2014 21:36 VieuxSinge wrote:
what about a change so that blink is equivalent to the blink dagger in DotA2 : everytime the unit takes some damage, the blink cooldown is set at 3sec How about we just fix the problem of how powerful blink is early game rather then neuter the ability for late game. If they just made the gast cost like 150 more and another 30 seconds for the research the problem would be gone I would rather make it harder to execute, so that it stays viable with good micro. Altering the timings is a pretty boring idea to fix possible imbalances. Not really. With all this talk about blink "all in" people obviously forgot it is actually a 2 base blink timing attack.What better way to fix too strong timing attack then by increasing the cost of the blink or duration of the research? We saw from those IEM stats (even though it is small sample size) that blink had like 80% win rate if it hit before 9 min mark and was much weaker in games when it hit a bit later than that. It is the easiest way to influence the problem directly without nerfing blink as an ability or making things complicated for the map makers. You can't really balance protoss easy with maps. For other races, doing something as simple as increasing travel time from base to base will fix most timing attacks just by map changes, without affecting anything else. You can't do that for protoss because WG ignores map size. So map changes must be more significant. To make map bad or not too good for blink but still to allow for reaper scouts because terran needs that on every map and in every matchup. Yeah it obviously would fix it, but it is a lazy fix and a boring one cause you just "remove" the strat from the game. I prefer altering the difficulty of execution over the timing, but maybe that is just me
Creative approach would maybe be better but since that kind of changes can affect other matchups as well you would need to have a dynamic balance team that is not afraid to experiment with units and abilities through test maps etc.
But Blizzard is very slow to react even when there is a big issue and everybody, including them sees the problem with it.
Good examples are BL-INF, hellbats, now blink. They take their time with everything so a "boring" balance adjustment that has better chance of fixing the real issue without messing up other things is obviously better than being creative when you do changes every 6 months.
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On March 19 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:12 Grumbels wrote:
I've become a little bit cynical about blink as an ability though. If you think about its three main uses, none of them require an earth shattering amount of decision making:
- blink forward to intercept
- blink backwards to escape
- individually blink hurt stalkers back (whack-a-mole)
I don't really see what blink adds to the game here, and it's a bit much to hear protoss players wax on about how slightly nerfing the cooldown is gutting the world's most skillful ability. In fact, blink sometimes rather reminds me of how warpgate can function: reinforce anywhere at will without it necessarily requiring amazing strategic planning; and with blink it is: ability to perfectly place your stalkers independent of any obstacles. i.e. it gives amazing benefits that can feel like you haven't earned them.
I do like the ability, doing quick snipes and dodging projectiles was enjoyable in Warcraft 3, and in Starcraft II you can use it for more complicated battle positioning moves and actively outmaneuvering your opponent. Let's just not pretend like it's the best ability in the game, because it does come with downsides. You can say the same about any ability in the game. Stim: Press T. When it wears off press T. EMP: When you see templar, EMP them. Cloak: When you don't want him to see you press C and you become invisible. Fungal: Press F and try to get as many of his units in it as possible PDD: When he attacks you make a PDD and he can't attack you. ... You get my point. Obviously I'm oversimplifying and all these abilities have intricacies to them I'm not explaining. You want to stim at the right time, and not too early. You want to wait to fungal until you can get a good flank or good baneling hits... etc. The same applies to Blink. I think you view it this way because of TvP Blink allins being so prevalent and because people are getting tired of it. But fundamentally the abilitiy is pretty neat, it allows for some interesting things to happen and it makes the game better. That and it's one of the only ways to deal with Muta before you can get Phoenixes out.
Of the ones you just linked, fungal and pdd are really the only two which are with blink in that they are 'gimmicky' as far as rts abilities go. I think sc2 would be a lot better without such abilities personally, and if blink, fungal, forcefield, pdd and w/e else I'm forgetting were to go I think we would be much better off for it.
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EPT
