EPTIt means
1) They found blink op
2) "career on the lines" - Blizzard. Appaerantly doesnt count always, only sometimes(?)
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 925
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
It means 1) They found blink op 2) "career on the lines" - Blizzard. Appaerantly doesnt count always, only sometimes(?) | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
You can see it in proleague, zerg has a 25% winrate vs terran this round, whats drg's win rate vs terran in proleague this round? 100%. In gsl on the other hand, zerg had 13 participants get through to the ro32. What does drg do? He goes out 0-2. Pressure makes diamonds with that kid, so I propose that buffs to protoss and terran are in order. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:58 Foxxan wrote: Sounds very strange to me that they decide to remove some maps next season for blink. It means 1) They found blink op 2) "career on the lines" - Blizzard. Appaerantly doesnt count always, only sometimes(?) It's too late for those  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Instead we now get a new standard for maps cementing blink rushes. It's getting annoying how blizzard identifies every lategame strategy that you take lots of skill to get to as broken, but when it comes to BO-rushes such as blink or Immortal allins, it's excuses like maps etc. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 91-53 (63.2%) [ Games ] ZvP: 103-140 (42.4%) [ Games ] PvT: 137-107 (56.1%) [ Games ] Here is Heavy rain Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 28-17 (62.2%) [ Games ] ZvP: 34-44 (43.6%) [ Games ] PvT: 32-44 (42.1%) [ Games ] Here is Daedalus: Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 15-20 (42.9%) [ Games ] ZvP: 24-17 (58.5%) [ Games ] PvT: 20-15 (57.1%) [ Games ] We're in a period of time which is super exciting, with objective horrendous map balance. Watching Polt somehow take a game off a protoss on yeonsu is amazing, yet the only focus is on how badly terran are doing when at the highest level zerg are doing just as bad if not worse. No one really talks about drg beating a terran on a map with a 70% winrate in tvz. The attitude when swarmhosts come out on heavy rain vs a protoss and the protoss wins is one of disparagement towards zerg despite them having a statistically bad time on that map, as if protoss managed to overcome gross imbalance to win. Players like effort and hydra have been labelled as underperforming, soulkey must be entering a slump now that he hasn't won a match in a month against players not named Choya. I call that the swarmhost effect, where a build which had a series of bad games somehow justifies horrendous tournament and teamleague performance at the top end of korea for months now. Having said that, I don't think zerg is really that bad off. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 19 2014 07:11 ReMinD_ wrote: I guess Terrans have taken the spotlight. Zerg hasn't been doing all that great throughout entire HotS, especially in WCS. I think big culprit here is Zerg's lack of cheese and offensive options. For the first 10 minutes, Zerg poses absolutely no threat to the opponent. It's more of a finger pointing thing... for TvP it's easy to say BLINK IMBA! For ZvP there isn't a clear thing to point to because each unit has some counters but the combination of them all his hard to fight. Also, Zerg has Swarm Hosts to fall back on which, while not the most fun, is a powerful unit that has won many games. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On March 19 2014 08:28 DinoMight wrote: Also, Zerg has Swarm Hosts to fall back on which, while not the most fun, is a powerful unit that has won many games. Has it not got to the point where that is statistically not true? We just watched hasuobs beat jaedong via mass tempests, Zest beat Soulkey with mass tempests, stats beat effort with tempests/voidrays, the list goes on. In round two proleague zvp has a 29% winrate, the vast majority of which zerg goes swarmhosts. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On March 19 2014 06:46 bo1b wrote: Everyone talks about daedalus being the problem map, but there are maps with such worse stats. Yeonsu was brought up as not being broken in tvz, yet these are the winrates: Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 91-53 (63.2%) [ Games ] ZvP: 103-140 (42.4%) [ Games ] PvT: 137-107 (56.1%) [ Games ] Here is Heavy rain Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 28-17 (62.2%) [ Games ] ZvP: 34-44 (43.6%) [ Games ] PvT: 32-44 (42.1%) [ Games ] Here is Daedalus: Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 15-20 (42.9%) [ Games ] ZvP: 24-17 (58.5%) [ Games ] PvT: 20-15 (57.1%) [ Games ] We're in a period of time which is super exciting, with objective horrendous map balance. Watching Polt somehow take a game off a protoss on yeonsu is amazing, yet the only focus is on how badly terran are doing when at the highest level zerg are doing just as bad if not worse. No one really talks about drg beating a terran on a map with a 70% winrate in tvz. The attitude when swarmhosts come out on heavy rain vs a protoss and the protoss wins is one of disparagement towards zerg despite them having a statistically bad time on that map, as if protoss managed to overcome gross imbalance to win. Players like effort and hydra have been labelled as underperforming, soulkey must be entering a slump now that he hasn't won a match in a month against players not named Choya. I call that the swarmhost effect, where a build which had a series of bad games somehow justifies horrendous tournament and teamleague performance at the top end of korea for months now. Having said that, I don't think zerg is really that bad off. Just curious but where did you get those map stats? And yeah, Zerg is performing the worst out of the three races imo. TvZ is in a really weird spot where it always seems like Zerg either dominates the Terran or just barely loses, and yet Terran typically ends up winning the series. I'm honestly not sure if the matchup needs any changes. ZvP I dont watch or play enough to comment on. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On March 19 2014 08:42 Pursuit_ wrote: Just curious but where did you get those map stats? And yeah, Zerg is performing the worst out of the three races imo. TvZ is in a really weird spot where it always seems like Zerg either dominates the Terran or just barely loses, and yet Terran typically ends up winning the series. I'm honestly not sure if the matchup needs any changes. ZvP I dont watch or play enough to comment on. tlpd korean, I'm sure that aligulac has more current stats for maps but I don't know where to find them. I think bio tvz with some mines, hellbats and thors mixed in vs zerg is amazing to watch, a much more respectable duration fight, where the micro doesn't just happen in .01 seconds then the game can be won or lost depending on whether oneside completely outmicrod the other or not, like it was pre nerfed widowmines. On the other hand, games like this really worry me. Yes I know byul didn't play perfectly, but it looks like getting to that point where zerg cannot fight back looks so easy on certain maps. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On March 19 2014 08:42 Pursuit_ wrote: Just curious but where did you get those map stats? And yeah, Zerg is performing the worst out of the three races imo. TvZ is in a really weird spot where it always seems like Zerg either dominates the Terran or just barely loses, and yet Terran typically ends up winning the series. I'm honestly not sure if the matchup needs any changes. ZvP I dont watch or play enough to comment on. TvZ is a very 'snowbally' match up at the moment. In mech vs muta/SH games, if zerg can deny the 4th with mutas, they are in a good spot because they can keep poking to kill turrets and run rings around the Thors and it just keeps snowballing with more mutas while terrans struggles to just rebuild turrets. However, if the 4th is not denied, terrans now has enough eco to make mech WHILE also adding mass turrets. This makes mutas almost useless and the snowball goes the other way and the mech terran just masses a viking/raven deathball (see Byul v BByong in SPL) With muta ling bling, the early engagements/creep denial when 3 base zerg vs 2/3base terran is very criticial. If zerg wins those engagement, they can take a fourth uncontested and it snowballs from there. But if terran wins the engagement/kills a lot of creep, this puts huge pressure on the fourth of zerg. And zergs without a fully mining 4th will just lose when 3-3 hits. Obviously, some games have huge derps that doesn't follow the above pattern. But most TvZ macro games without huge derps usually play out this way. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 19 2014 13:24 vthree wrote: TvZ is a very 'snowbally' match up at the moment. In mech vs muta/SH games, if zerg can deny the 4th with mutas, they are in a good spot because they can keep poking to kill turrets and run rings around the Thors and it just keeps snowballing with more mutas while terrans struggles to just rebuild turrets. However, if the 4th is not denied, terrans now has enough eco to make mech WHILE also adding mass turrets. This makes mutas almost useless and the snowball goes the other way and the mech terran just masses a viking/raven deathball (see Byul v BByong in SPL) With muta ling bling, the early engagements/creep denial when 3 base zerg vs 2/3base terran is very criticial. If zerg wins those engagement, they can take a fourth uncontested and it snowballs from there. But if terran wins the engagement/kills a lot of creep, this puts huge pressure on the fourth of zerg. And zergs without a fully mining 4th will just lose when 3-3 hits. Obviously, some games have huge derps that doesn't follow the above pattern. But most TvZ macro games without huge derps usually play out this way. Well, the core of what you are talking about just comes down to mutalisks and bio. Those units mean tempo and you have to ride that wave as the zerg/terran. Amazing players that play these kinds of styles will just always make it look very powerful, even near unfair, because they won't miss a beat and they will really snowball it. But mere humans like every player on the ladder, every foreigner and half of Code S will have some derp moments pretty regularily. And I don't think there is something wrong with Obviously, some games have huge derps that doesn't follow the above pattern. But most TvZ macro games without huge derps usually play out this way. because this just means that a player that does not make mistakes will eventually be able to win the game, if he has been given an advantage early. Since you were talking about Byul vs BByong: I think that Byul simply should not have gone mutalisks that late. As I said, it is a tempo play regardless of what you play against with it and he missed his start. Imo, that's just one of the risks when you play against Terran, you gotta set up in a way that you can go balls to the wall aggression in case of incoming turtlemech - or just accept that you missed your window and match the turtlemech with turtlehosts. In that particular game, Byul didn't restart mutalisk production until 17:23 (after building an intial 9mutas around 11:30). That's just not the tempo play you need with them. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
ZvP is seriously messed up, though. Zerg has no way of dealing with Protoss air, so they're forced into using SH in the worst way possible. When they try to use them differently, Soulkey drops out of GSL. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On March 19 2014 17:53 bo1b wrote: tvz is in a fantastic spot outside of turtle mech I think. on one hand it's really fun, intense, fast paced, mechanical, and these can all be really fun to play and to spectate. but bio vs melee/muta can also be very dull and repetitive since most games end before hive tech and it's pretty much just constant rallying and splitting it's sad to see the hate zerg gets for swarm hosts when we only build them against armies we can't fight otherwise. it would be good for the matchup if zerg could fight mech without swarm host turtle, just like it would be good for zvp | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On March 19 2014 18:06 Waise wrote: on one hand it's really fun, intense, fast paced, mechanical, and these can all be really fun to play and to spectate. but bio vs melee/muta can also be very dull and repetitive since most games end before hive tech and it's pretty much just constant rallying and splitting eh, I don't really agree tbh. When I watch something like this I don't think of it as constant rallying and splitting, though of course that happens. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
If timing is too strong, do something that affects that actual timing, like adding extra 30 seconds for blink research, instead of changing the map pool. I still think making MSC a defense-only unit would be best but I know that is unrealistic to expect as far as Blizzard is concerned. So how will exactly new map pool look like? There are at least 4 great blink maps, will they remove all of them or do a minor adjustment like removing only 1 or 2 statistically best blink maps and wait for another 3 months to do something about the actual problem? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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