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On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably.
In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind).
He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend.
Polt's words, not mine!
That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category.
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Also, lol at OP. Seems silly now 
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On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:
That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category.
yeah but there arent many who have a 85% success rate at the highest level of play for a 100k$
hence how ridiculous it is.
I always thought the TC tech was there to mitigate the power of stim.
You know, T gets stim, then you get blink and charge so you dont get shredded. Now blink comes out even before t can get stim, and its considered a macro opening lol. /rant
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On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category.
Name another non Protoss all-in that has such high usage and success rate. Don't just claim many many builds without naming any.
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On March 18 2014 23:42 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category. Name another non Protoss all-in that has such high usage and success rate. Don't just claim many many builds without naming any.
If you don't look for balance whine in my statement it's actually reasonable. The blink allin is a strong build that is frustrating to lose to. There are many other strong allins that are frustrating to lose to.
That's pretty much all I said.
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On March 19 2014 00:04 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 23:42 vthree wrote:On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category. Name another non Protoss all-in that has such high usage and success rate. Don't just claim many many builds without naming any. If you don't look for balance whine in my statement it's actually reasonable. The blink allin is a strong build that is frustrating to lose to. There are many other strong allins that are frustrating to lose to. That's pretty much all I said.
Considering this IS a balance discussion thread and the post you were replying to is on the balance of the blink all-in. It isn't a big assumption to infer balance in your statement.
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On March 19 2014 00:04 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 23:42 vthree wrote:On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category. Name another non Protoss all-in that has such high usage and success rate. Don't just claim many many builds without naming any. If you don't look for balance whine in my statement it's actually reasonable. The blink allin is a strong build that is frustrating to lose to. There are many other strong allins that are frustrating to lose to. That's pretty much all I said.
But blink is not an allin, you can't compare it to "other allins".
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And you still don't give a single example. Not that hard if there are many.
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On March 19 2014 01:03 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 00:04 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 23:42 vthree wrote:On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:
[quote]
Wait they agreed on no rush?
Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category. Name another non Protoss all-in that has such high usage and success rate. Don't just claim many many builds without naming any. If you don't look for balance whine in my statement it's actually reasonable. The blink allin is a strong build that is frustrating to lose to. There are many other strong allins that are frustrating to lose to. That's pretty much all I said. Considering this IS a balance discussion thread and the post you were replying to is on the balance of the blink all-in. It isn't a big assumption to infer balance in your statement.
The point I was trying to make was that Polt made mistakes in those games in terms of build order and strategy. He himself admits to this. So it's not worth discussing whether or not Blink allins are balanced based on that series alone.
There are other builds that are strong and frustrating to deal with... Soul Train is one of them. Roach Hydra Viper max off 3 base vs. P. Marine Hellion Banshee rush in TvT. All strong builds that can catch someone who is unprepared off-guard.
As the meta evolves and people adapt to the most recent patches, players will figure out how to better deal with the Blink allin. Let's not forget that Protoss has received a series of nerfs in the last few weeks/months that have yet to be reflected. Does anyone actually have a win % statistic for Blink allins across all competitive play post patch? Let's not let pre-patch statistics and the fact that Blink won 3 games at IEM skew our examination of balance here. I've already seen a lot more Blink attempts get shut down post patch and the patch has been in effect a very short time.
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On March 19 2014 02:01 Faust852 wrote:
And you still don't give a single example. Not that hard if there are many.
10-pool v. hatch first is difficult in ZvZ.
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On March 19 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 01:03 vthree wrote:On March 19 2014 00:04 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 23:42 vthree wrote:On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:
[quote]
No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category. Name another non Protoss all-in that has such high usage and success rate. Don't just claim many many builds without naming any. If you don't look for balance whine in my statement it's actually reasonable. The blink allin is a strong build that is frustrating to lose to. There are many other strong allins that are frustrating to lose to. That's pretty much all I said. Considering this IS a balance discussion thread and the post you were replying to is on the balance of the blink all-in. It isn't a big assumption to infer balance in your statement. The point I was trying to make was that Polt made mistakes in those games in terms of build order and strategy. He himself admits to this. So it's not worth discussing whether or not Blink allins are balanced based on that series alone. There are other builds that are strong and frustrating to deal with... Soul Train is one of them. Roach Hydra Viper max off 3 base vs. P. Marine Hellion Banshee rush in TvT. All strong builds that can catch someone who is unprepared off-guard. As the meta evolves and people adapt to the most recent patches, players will figure out how to better deal with the Blink allin. Let's not forget that Protoss has received a series of nerfs in the last few weeks/months that have yet to be reflected. Does anyone actually have a win % statistic for Blink allins across all competitive play post patch? Let's not let pre-patch statistics and the fact that Blink won 3 games at IEM skew our examination of balance here. I've already seen a lot more Blink attempts get shut down post patch and the patch has been in effect a very short time.
Because Polt will say out loud "I played perfectly but Blink is too strong to win against". It's totally Polt character.
IEM's Blink didn't win 3 games but 11 right ? I didn't see it fails in PL either.
Marine Hellion Banshee is countered by 1 raven 2 vikings, standard for most opening in TvT. Soul Train is ultra strong but again, it's protoss.
Roach Hydra Viper seems more a gamble build that works only if the protoss play greedy as fuck like he likes to.
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On March 19 2014 02:04 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 02:01 Faust852 wrote:
And you still don't give a single example. Not that hard if there are many. 10-pool v. hatch first is difficult in ZvZ.
I doubt Mirror issue can be considered as a balance problem, at least at that level. I mean you pool 14 you win, and even if the other has hatch first, if you are better you will win no matter what.
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On March 19 2014 02:09 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:On March 19 2014 01:03 vthree wrote:On March 19 2014 00:04 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 23:42 vthree wrote:On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category. Name another non Protoss all-in that has such high usage and success rate. Don't just claim many many builds without naming any. If you don't look for balance whine in my statement it's actually reasonable. The blink allin is a strong build that is frustrating to lose to. There are many other strong allins that are frustrating to lose to. That's pretty much all I said. Considering this IS a balance discussion thread and the post you were replying to is on the balance of the blink all-in. It isn't a big assumption to infer balance in your statement. The point I was trying to make was that Polt made mistakes in those games in terms of build order and strategy. He himself admits to this. So it's not worth discussing whether or not Blink allins are balanced based on that series alone. There are other builds that are strong and frustrating to deal with... Soul Train is one of them. Roach Hydra Viper max off 3 base vs. P. Marine Hellion Banshee rush in TvT. All strong builds that can catch someone who is unprepared off-guard. As the meta evolves and people adapt to the most recent patches, players will figure out how to better deal with the Blink allin. Let's not forget that Protoss has received a series of nerfs in the last few weeks/months that have yet to be reflected. Does anyone actually have a win % statistic for Blink allins across all competitive play post patch? Let's not let pre-patch statistics and the fact that Blink won 3 games at IEM skew our examination of balance here. I've already seen a lot more Blink attempts get shut down post patch and the patch has been in effect a very short time. Because Polt will say out loud "I played perfectly but Blink is too strong to win against". It's totally Polt character. IEM didn't win 3 games but 11 right ? I didn't see it fails in PL either. Marine Hellion Banshee is countered by 1 raven 2 vikings, standard for most opening in TvT. Soul Train is ultra strong but again, it's protoss. Roach Hydra Viper seems more a gamble build that works only if the protoss play greedy as fuck like he likes to.
There is no other opening in this game as robust as blink tech opening. It is an all-in that can kill you outright and if Protoss spots defenses like bunkers and tanks - they just don't warp in stalkers, and chrono up their tech behind planetary nexus. They don't really need that many units for defensive purposes in the early game. On the drop of a dime, it is no longer an all-in.
There is no other opening that can hit as hard and yet still have a transition.
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On March 19 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 01:03 vthree wrote:On March 19 2014 00:04 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 23:42 vthree wrote:On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:
[quote]
No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category. Name another non Protoss all-in that has such high usage and success rate. Don't just claim many many builds without naming any. If you don't look for balance whine in my statement it's actually reasonable. The blink allin is a strong build that is frustrating to lose to. There are many other strong allins that are frustrating to lose to. That's pretty much all I said. Considering this IS a balance discussion thread and the post you were replying to is on the balance of the blink all-in. It isn't a big assumption to infer balance in your statement. The point I was trying to make was that Polt made mistakes in those games in terms of build order and strategy. He himself admits to this. So it's not worth discussing whether or not Blink allins are balanced based on that series alone. There are other builds that are strong and frustrating to deal with... Soul Train is one of them. Roach Hydra Viper max off 3 base vs. P. Marine Hellion Banshee rush in TvT. All strong builds that can catch someone who is unprepared off-guard.As the meta evolves and people adapt to the most recent patches, players will figure out how to better deal with the Blink allin. Let's not forget that Protoss has received a series of nerfs in the last few weeks/months that have yet to be reflected. Does anyone actually have a win % statistic for Blink allins across all competitive play post patch? Let's not let pre-patch statistics and the fact that Blink won 3 games at IEM skew our examination of balance here. I've already seen a lot more Blink attempts get shut down post patch and the patch has been in effect a very short time.
Thats the problem right there. Terran have no consistent scouting, he cant rly know weather toss warps in alot of stalkers or go transition.
But this has been said before numerous times so u should know this by now
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On March 19 2014 02:01 Faust852 wrote:
And you still don't give a single example. Not that hard if there are many.
It's really not hard to think of strong allins that are frustrating to lose to... That's all he said, not that those allins have the same winrate or something like that. Just that they are strong.
I guess it's also not that fun having your opponent's each and every unit walking towards your base the moment you put down a templar archive. Not to mention the myriads of 2raxes or Sentry/Immortals one has to defend after clicking the Search Player button. And, is roach/baneling still a thing? I've been more on the 1-1 roach side lately...
That doesn't mean that blink allins are fine just because they are defendable, but he's got a point. It's not the first strong allin that has been shaping a matchup.
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On March 19 2014 03:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 02:01 Faust852 wrote:
And you still don't give a single example. Not that hard if there are many. It's really not hard to think of strong allins that are frustrating to lose to... That's all he said, not that those allins have the same winrate or something like that. Just that they are strong. I guess it's also not that fun having your opponent's each and every unit walking towards your base the moment you put down a templar archive. Not to mention the myriads of 2raxes or Sentry/Immortals one has to defend after clicking the Search Player button. And, is roach/baneling still a thing? I've been more on the 1-1 roach side lately... That doesn't mean that blink allins are fine just because they are defendable, but he's got a point. It's not the first strong allin that has been shaping a matchup.
It's not an allin, that's part of what makes it so strong. A macro build that kills x% of the time is order of magnitude stronger than a true allin that kills x% of the time. If x is 50%, the allin is fair whereas the macro build is OP as fuck. From what we've seen, the x for blink is somewhere in the 70-90 range.
It looks like Blizzard is not nerfing blink "allin" though.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10033983626?page=2#29
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On March 19 2014 03:30 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 03:01 Big J wrote:On March 19 2014 02:01 Faust852 wrote:
And you still don't give a single example. Not that hard if there are many. It's really not hard to think of strong allins that are frustrating to lose to... That's all he said, not that those allins have the same winrate or something like that. Just that they are strong. I guess it's also not that fun having your opponent's each and every unit walking towards your base the moment you put down a templar archive. Not to mention the myriads of 2raxes or Sentry/Immortals one has to defend after clicking the Search Player button. And, is roach/baneling still a thing? I've been more on the 1-1 roach side lately... That doesn't mean that blink allins are fine just because they are defendable, but he's got a point. It's not the first strong allin that has been shaping a matchup. It's not an allin, that's part of what makes it so strong. A macro build that kills x% of the time is order of magnitude stronger than a true allin that kills x% of the time. If x is 50%, the allin is fair whereas the macro build is OP as fuck. From what we've seen, the x for blink is somewhere in the 70-90 range. It looks like Blizzard is not nerfing blink "allin" though. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10033983626?page=2#29
So probably at least Daedalus and Yeonsu out, and Heavy Rain might go as well. I hope they also remove Alterzim. They also need to change the gold on Habitation.
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On March 18 2014 23:14 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 16:41 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably. In the interviews he explains that he lost some of those games because he made mistakes. Polt actually just put out a blog on how to best hold the blink all-in. Uses his game vs. Classic at IEM Cologne as an example. I looked into because I'm actually playing Terran now and sometimes die to Blink. He stresses building Marauders over marines and getting Stim/Medivacs asap (less emphasis on bunkers, he says they don't help because Blink will avoid them or you will have to build so many that you fall behind). He also points out that Protoss will take their whole army to do the allin, so even if it sounds scary not having your whole army at home, a few units to counterattack his base (1 mine, a few marines, etc.) can significantly slow down the Protoss because he won't have anything to defend. Polt's words, not mine! That said it's a strong allin that is definitely frustrating to lose to, but there are many many builds that fall into this category.
Polt has a great mentality towards the game which is why he says things like this. He looks at the game and sees that he could have won is he did X and Y rather than Z, which as a player is the best mentality because you should only focus your energy / attention on the things you can control (and therefor improve at) and not things that are out of your control. And it is 100% possible for Terran to hold any variation of Blink openings, I think every Terran would agree with me that if we had maphacks Blink would be pretty easy to hold since we could tell the exact variation that is coming, how much they're committing to it, where their army is blinking in from ect, but getting that information in real time is incredibly hard, and it's not just a one time scout to see blink is coming, but then you need to see when they expand, when they stop making stalkers, how many gates they committed too, when they start adding on tech / what tech they start adding on, ect.
I didn't say anything like 'blink is unstoppable, woe is terran' (which is what you seem to be arguing against), my argument is that it's too hard for Terran to consistently get the information they need to be able to hold the plethora of variations available to Protoss without being behind, and that even Polt falls to it quite often when Whitewing was saying Polt can defend against it consistently. Personally I enjoy Blink openings and think they can make for some really interesting games (Polt vs Dear G3 from IEM Katowice was a really fun game for example), but there does seem to be some problems with the build's winrates atm.
Even at IEM Cologne, Polt vs Classic G1 Loss, Polt vs Classic G4 Win, Polt vs Rain G2 Win, Polt vs HerO G1 Tie. The games he wins he makes 4+ bunkers and does a counterattack that goes unscouted + the protoss commits to attacks late, the Tie vs HerO he was very far behind and managed to pull into into a tie via base race.
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On March 19 2014 03:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 03:30 imrusty269 wrote:On March 19 2014 03:01 Big J wrote:On March 19 2014 02:01 Faust852 wrote:
And you still don't give a single example. Not that hard if there are many. It's really not hard to think of strong allins that are frustrating to lose to... That's all he said, not that those allins have the same winrate or something like that. Just that they are strong. I guess it's also not that fun having your opponent's each and every unit walking towards your base the moment you put down a templar archive. Not to mention the myriads of 2raxes or Sentry/Immortals one has to defend after clicking the Search Player button. And, is roach/baneling still a thing? I've been more on the 1-1 roach side lately... That doesn't mean that blink allins are fine just because they are defendable, but he's got a point. It's not the first strong allin that has been shaping a matchup. It's not an allin, that's part of what makes it so strong. A macro build that kills x% of the time is order of magnitude stronger than a true allin that kills x% of the time. If x is 50%, the allin is fair whereas the macro build is OP as fuck. From what we've seen, the x for blink is somewhere in the 70-90 range. It looks like Blizzard is not nerfing blink "allin" though. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10033983626?page=2#29 So probably at least Daedalus and Yeonsu out, and Heavy Rain might go as well. I hope they also remove Alterzim. They also need to change the gold on Habitation.
I think the gold is the only thing preventing habitation from having a 70% + winrate for zvp tbh, that map is just swarmhost heaven.
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About time.. I've been saying this for months.
I think the original plan was to make it easier for Reapers to scout Protoss allins. But by making every map so good for Reaper scouting they also create a new allin Terran has to scout for. So it's not productive.
I think if there are 1-2 maps that Blink is viable on and that's it, it puts a much more reasonable scouting burden on the Terran.
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EPT
