|
51 Posts
I really don't understand why time warp is in the game. Photon overcharge serves a purpose but what does time warp really do? It limits micro and gives protoss an advantage they don't even need to begin with. There's also nothing exciting about it so why not just remove it already?
Regarding TvP in general i would like to see more focus on Terran late game. Everything terran does is basically a respons to what the protoss does. Hence why you we see reapers, scouting, the early game for all the different threats from the protoss so that the terran gets to stay alive and play a macro game.
What i see as a bigger problem though is that most and each of the protoss UNITS also requires a respons. If the protoss unit composition changes, so must the terrans. This, however, goes out of control when it gets to late game where there are so many different units involved that if the terrans doesnt have the right respons they cant engage the army of the protoss. Hence why we see so many succesful terrans play with really low tier tech, even skipping ghosts and vikings and try to outmaneuver the protoss. While this does provide entertaining games it tends to end up futile and thus we get to see yet another PvP final.
As it is now the terran late game army is so squishy. I'd love to see more bulk in the late game. Something like Battlecruisers.
|
On March 17 2014 07:19 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:21 Loccstana wrote:
Not a balance change suggestion, but we need to do everything to make Protoss do more army micro. For example, we should get rid of smart cast for storms, make zealot charge manually activated, give collosus friendly fire damage, make photo overcharged a channeled ability, have forcefields unable to overlap, remove phoenix move attack, have time warp affect Protoss units as well. Salty much? I mean, that's a bit extreme don't you think? More seriously I think making something require micro just for the sake of it doesn't really make the game better. Those at the tip top will continue to use the units effectively and noobs will suffer. I think the game requires a lot of micro at the top level already. What I'd change are things that revolve around strategy. Give new abilities that can be used smartly. Make choices require good scouting, reward good scouting, and reward players who can think outside the box of the current meta. Simply requiring more APM to do the same things won't make the game more fun to watch or play.
no, it would make it fair for the races that can't a-move their whole army without getting melted no matter what composition they have. so it's not just for the sake of it, it's for the sake of equal apm and micro requirement between all 3 races. top tier pros won't care about it? nothing wrong with it then. noobs will suffer? what about the terran and zerg noobs that are suffering right now while protoss noobs don't have to? how's that fair? your other suggestions won't come to shit if one guy can just run all his stuff in while the other has to scramble for positioning and kiting and surrounding and so on.
|
On March 17 2014 08:29 Kabras wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 07:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 17 2014 06:21 Loccstana wrote:
Not a balance change suggestion, but we need to do everything to make Protoss do more army micro. For example, we should get rid of smart cast for storms, make zealot charge manually activated, give collosus friendly fire damage, make photo overcharged a channeled ability, have forcefields unable to overlap, remove phoenix move attack, have time warp affect Protoss units as well. Salty much? I mean, that's a bit extreme don't you think? More seriously I think making something require micro just for the sake of it doesn't really make the game better. Those at the tip top will continue to use the units effectively and noobs will suffer. I think the game requires a lot of micro at the top level already. What I'd change are things that revolve around strategy. Give new abilities that can be used smartly. Make choices require good scouting, reward good scouting, and reward players who can think outside the box of the current meta. Simply requiring more APM to do the same things won't make the game more fun to watch or play. no, it would make it fair for the races that can't a-move their whole army without getting melted no matter what composition they have. so it's not just for the sake of it, it's for the sake of equal apm and micro requirement between all 3 races. top tier pros won't care about it? nothing wrong with it then. noobs will suffer? what about the terran and zerg noobs that are suffering right now while protoss noobs don't have to? how's that fair? your other suggestions won't come to shit if one guy can just run all his stuff in while the other has to scramble for positioning and kiting and surrounding and so on.
This is really unfair to Protoss, Protoss micro might not be as flashy or APM intensive as Terran micro but it's definitely not easy either, unit positioning and correct use of abilities makes a huge difference for Protoss just as much as Terran. There have been plenty of examples of Protoss attacking into poor positions vs Terran with a huge advantage and losing the game as a result. Top tier pros will definitely care about it too, it will make Protoss players less likely to spread there armies out and create more deathbally situations if their army is harder to control. The way units are designed right now if Terran is micro'ing well in small-medium engagements they're probably winning, but Protoss can get around this by forcing the Terran player to engage on multiple fronts rather than one at a time, getting rid of this advantage would force Protoss to keep their army together more than they already do.
While I do agree Protoss needs more units that let really good players seperate themselves (more significantly / visibly) from mediocre players, I don't think just making the same mechanics worse unless micro'd is the correct way to do it. Photon Overcharge being channelled is an example I like, charge being manually cast or collosi dealing friendly damage are pretty bad examples because they just make current abilities worse (edit: and don't allow better players to differentiate themselves from mediocre players, no 'amazing charges' or anything like that). Things like changing smart casting should be done for all units or none.
|
On March 17 2014 09:00 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 08:29 Kabras wrote:On March 17 2014 07:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 17 2014 06:21 Loccstana wrote:
Not a balance change suggestion, but we need to do everything to make Protoss do more army micro. For example, we should get rid of smart cast for storms, make zealot charge manually activated, give collosus friendly fire damage, make photo overcharged a channeled ability, have forcefields unable to overlap, remove phoenix move attack, have time warp affect Protoss units as well. Salty much? I mean, that's a bit extreme don't you think? More seriously I think making something require micro just for the sake of it doesn't really make the game better. Those at the tip top will continue to use the units effectively and noobs will suffer. I think the game requires a lot of micro at the top level already. What I'd change are things that revolve around strategy. Give new abilities that can be used smartly. Make choices require good scouting, reward good scouting, and reward players who can think outside the box of the current meta. Simply requiring more APM to do the same things won't make the game more fun to watch or play. no, it would make it fair for the races that can't a-move their whole army without getting melted no matter what composition they have. so it's not just for the sake of it, it's for the sake of equal apm and micro requirement between all 3 races. top tier pros won't care about it? nothing wrong with it then. noobs will suffer? what about the terran and zerg noobs that are suffering right now while protoss noobs don't have to? how's that fair? your other suggestions won't come to shit if one guy can just run all his stuff in while the other has to scramble for positioning and kiting and surrounding and so on. This is really unfair to Protoss, Protoss micro might not be as flashy or APM intensive as Terran micro but it's definitely not easy either, unit positioning and correct use of abilities makes a huge difference for Protoss just as much as Terran. There have been plenty of examples of Protoss attacking into poor positions vs Terran with a huge advantage and losing the game as a result. Top tier pros will definitely care about it too, it will make Protoss players less likely to spread there armies out and create more deathbally situations if their army is harder to control. The way units are designed right now if Terran is micro'ing well in small-medium engagements they're probably winning, but Protoss can get around this by forcing the Terran player to engage on multiple fronts rather than one at a time, getting rid of this advantage would force Protoss to keep their army together more than they already do. While I do agree Protoss needs more units that let really good players seperate themselves (more significantly / visibly) from mediocre players, I don't think just making the same mechanics worse unless micro'd is the correct way to do it. Photon Overcharge being channelled is an example I like, charge being manually cast or collosi dealing friendly damage are pretty bad examples because they just make current abilities worse (edit: and don't allow better players to differentiate themselves from mediocre players, no 'amazing charges' or anything like that). Things like changing smart casting should be done for all units or none.
The first part of that implies that what Protoss does in battles is something that Terrans don't do. Arguably, Terrans have to have better unit positioning than Protoss. We have to make sure vikings are in place and spread out, an arc is formed, a few ghosts are in front (but not all) to EMP/Snipe templars, while macroing up during this (or during an engagement). I could hit EMP's on the entire army, but it wouldn't matter if I didn't land it on the majority of the templars and they got storms on my army.
I've seen Protoss attack into piss poor positions, up a ramp, into depot/bunker/mine fields but that's like saying Protoss is imba cause Terrans die after running into templar storms.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with more APM usage. This is a REAL TIME strategy game. Mechanics should play a big part in how a race is played, and the potential. And it's absolutely depressing as a Terran to watch the skill ceiling be brought down by changes like the oracle speed buff that makes any Protoss that isn't having a stroke, look like they're GM's.
The second thing is that when you watch how good matchup's play out, stuff like TvZ, both armies require a lot of micro and control, and attention. If you mess up once, you could lose your entire army (marine vs banelings, zerglings/muta vs mines/thors) and be in a huge disadvantage. When Polt vs Dear happened, and there was 6 rangeless colossi rumbling down to Polt's base, was there really any impressive control beyond move forward, move back? Casters say all the time how impressive that is, but it's not really not. I definately agree with the 2nd part though, that micro should be a bigger part and should show it. It would really help with all the Protoss hate considering after 3+ years, deathball a move is still a thing against Protoss.
|
On March 17 2014 14:51 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 09:00 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 17 2014 08:29 Kabras wrote:On March 17 2014 07:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 17 2014 06:21 Loccstana wrote:
Not a balance change suggestion, but we need to do everything to make Protoss do more army micro. For example, we should get rid of smart cast for storms, make zealot charge manually activated, give collosus friendly fire damage, make photo overcharged a channeled ability, have forcefields unable to overlap, remove phoenix move attack, have time warp affect Protoss units as well. Salty much? I mean, that's a bit extreme don't you think? More seriously I think making something require micro just for the sake of it doesn't really make the game better. Those at the tip top will continue to use the units effectively and noobs will suffer. I think the game requires a lot of micro at the top level already. What I'd change are things that revolve around strategy. Give new abilities that can be used smartly. Make choices require good scouting, reward good scouting, and reward players who can think outside the box of the current meta. Simply requiring more APM to do the same things won't make the game more fun to watch or play. no, it would make it fair for the races that can't a-move their whole army without getting melted no matter what composition they have. so it's not just for the sake of it, it's for the sake of equal apm and micro requirement between all 3 races. top tier pros won't care about it? nothing wrong with it then. noobs will suffer? what about the terran and zerg noobs that are suffering right now while protoss noobs don't have to? how's that fair? your other suggestions won't come to shit if one guy can just run all his stuff in while the other has to scramble for positioning and kiting and surrounding and so on. This is really unfair to Protoss, Protoss micro might not be as flashy or APM intensive as Terran micro but it's definitely not easy either, unit positioning and correct use of abilities makes a huge difference for Protoss just as much as Terran. There have been plenty of examples of Protoss attacking into poor positions vs Terran with a huge advantage and losing the game as a result. Top tier pros will definitely care about it too, it will make Protoss players less likely to spread there armies out and create more deathbally situations if their army is harder to control. The way units are designed right now if Terran is micro'ing well in small-medium engagements they're probably winning, but Protoss can get around this by forcing the Terran player to engage on multiple fronts rather than one at a time, getting rid of this advantage would force Protoss to keep their army together more than they already do. While I do agree Protoss needs more units that let really good players seperate themselves (more significantly / visibly) from mediocre players, I don't think just making the same mechanics worse unless micro'd is the correct way to do it. Photon Overcharge being channelled is an example I like, charge being manually cast or collosi dealing friendly damage are pretty bad examples because they just make current abilities worse (edit: and don't allow better players to differentiate themselves from mediocre players, no 'amazing charges' or anything like that). Things like changing smart casting should be done for all units or none. The first part of that implies that what Protoss does in battles is something that Terrans don't do. Arguably, Terrans have to have better unit positioning than Protoss. We have to make sure vikings are in place and spread out, an arc is formed, a few ghosts are in front (but not all) to EMP/Snipe templars, while macroing up during this (or during an engagement). I could hit EMP's on the entire army, but it wouldn't matter if I didn't land it on the majority of the templars and they got storms on my army. I've seen Protoss attack into piss poor positions, up a ramp, into depot/bunker/mine fields but that's like saying Protoss is imba cause Terrans die after running into templar storms. There's absolutely nothing wrong with more APM usage. This is a REAL TIME strategy game. Mechanics should play a big part in how a race is played, and the potential. And it's absolutely depressing as a Terran to watch the skill ceiling be brought down by changes like the oracle speed buff that makes any Protoss that isn't having a stroke, look like they're GM's. The second thing is that when you watch how good matchup's play out, stuff like TvZ, both armies require a lot of micro and control, and attention. If you mess up once, you could lose your entire army (marine vs banelings, zerglings/muta vs mines/thors) and be in a huge disadvantage. When Polt vs Dear happened, and there was 6 rangeless colossi rumbling down to Polt's base, was there really any impressive control beyond move forward, move back? Casters say all the time how impressive that is, but it's not really not. I definately agree with the 2nd part though, that micro should be a bigger part and should show it. It would really help with all the Protoss hate considering after 3+ years, deathball a move is still a thing against Protoss.
I'm a Terran too and trust me I know the frustrations of playing vs Protoss, but I just feel like Protoss players get a lot of shit for "A-move deathball" compositions when really there's a lot of micro / positioning involved with their army and at the highest level there's a lot of multitasking involved too (zealot runbys / warp prisms / stalkers out on the map / ht out on the map / oracles / observers / probes for proxy pylons ect). I'm certainly not saying Protoss control is harder, because from my experience at least at my level it's much easier in direct engagements, but I feel like because the subtle army movements / positioning of players like Dear / Rain that seperate them from your average GM player don't look as impressive as the great splits / multipronged harass of players like Taeja / Polt that do the same for them Protoss players get a lot of undeserved hate.
For sure at my level I still get rolled by the occassional Zealot / Collosi / HT A-move T T army, but I also know as a Terran player that it's almost always on me to be able to win that engagement. Even that Polt vs Dear game came down to Dear picking off vikings / army leading up to the engagement, hitting a very narrow window with 3-3 + Guardian Shield vs 1-1 and Polt engaging in a pretty weird spot with 9 unprotected Vikings vs 6 Collosi. It sucks that TvP produces many games like this, where one side gets a big advantage and just rolls the other, but for every game like this there's a Polt vs herO Game 3 with constant back and forth action where micro + decision making decided the outcome fo the game. And it's not like TvZ doesn't have it's share of Soulkey vs Reality's or Jjakji vs Revival G3's.
I definitely get frustrated by the fact that while I can often get good EMP's off on a Protoss army that doesn't win me the game outright like it would have if my opponent got good storms onto all of my army, and that I'm always the one stuck reacting to what my opponent is doing in terms of composition, that my army (arguably) requires a lot more control than my opponents ect, but I love playing Terran because of how much I can do with my units, being able to pick my opponent apart with multitasking or decimate their army with proper splits / kiting, the constant fighting to control the game's tempo or the rush I get when I land that last second emp on those HT and grasp victory from defeat. Protoss might be slightly stronger than Terran at the moment, and I definitely think it's true that Protoss has a few too many core units that don't require great control to use, but in terms of mid-late game balance I don't think there are any problems.
The major issue I have with TvP is the early game situation of Protoss having about a dozen openings each with at least a dozen variations and all requiring very different responses and looking very similar, while Terran has really only 2 openings with maybe 2-3 variations of both that dont really require different responses from Protoss. It feels like it's becoming more and more rare for a Terran to go into the mid game on even footing, but when they do it seems like a lot of great games can be produced. Polt's mid-late game honestly doesn't seem extraordinarily impressive to me, or at least I think there are other Terran players who can play out the mid-late game as well as he can, it's his ability to get into the mid-late game without being behind more often than any other Terran player that makes him one of if not the best TvP player in the world atm.
|
I think one major source for the whining and imba cries comes from the low and mid level Terrans (bouncing between Platinum and Diamond myself) often dying to Protoss 1a deathballs in those leagues.
I don't think most of it is real whining or hate but mostly frustration (atleast it is for me).
At the top level a Protoss doing 1a would die horribly to perfectly micro-ed MMMGV and they should.
All the Templar would get totally EMPed, the Vikings would have a field day and the MM would dance around the Gateway units all night long.
But now come back to the low and mid level Terrans.
At the lower levels its 1a vs 1a where obviously the Bio loses with a landslide if the Protoss player added any AoE.
It would be a similar landslide if the Protoss had no AoE at all.
This alone is already a large source of frustration for both sides even though the cause is quite clear.
At the mid level however it tends to get lobsided due to micro requirements for MMM scaling higher than the micro requirements for the Protoss deathball.
At Platinum and higher, the macro of both sides should be decent enough that macro alone won't win you the game anymore. Both sides will have an army with a decent enough composition.
In TvP that means MMMVG vs Gateway/Colossi/Storm, the same you will see anywhere else.
There might be gaps and mistakes on both sides but on a whole that's what you'll see.
And at that point, the micro requirements for the Terran army are essentially almost the same as in GM.
You have to land the EMPs in time on the Templar, kite your MM for the entire duration of the engagement, position and repositiniong your Vikings and all the while trying to macro (I can barely manage the latter myself).
In return, Protoss has to not clump their Templar (can be done before the engagement), position their Stalkers in a decent spot to defend the Colossi and micro the Colossi themselves, while macroing and warping in units.
Again, in GM this is all well and balanced.
Obviously both sides are going to slip up and I think this is where all the frustration comes from.
If Terran slips up with the EMPs, the Storms land and the Bio dies.
If Terran slips up with the Bio itself, the Chargelots, Colossi or Storms kill the Bio.
If Terran slips up with the Vikings, the Stalkers snipe them all and again the Bio dies (sometimes not right away though).
Only slipping up on macro isn't a potential game ending mistake.
Protoss slipping up in the micro is not as critical at these levels, which is why it feels so frustrating (for me atleast):
If Protoss slips up with the Colossi/Stalker micro, the Vikings will bring them down much more quickly.
This reduces the damage output but the Colossi will still be firing at the Bio for some time.
If the Protoss slips up with the High Templar then in the worst case there are 0 storms and the Bio doesn't die to the Storms. This can lead to a victory for Terran, but it requires ALL the Templar to be EMPed (sometimes twice if they have enough energy). Even a single Storm is extremely lethal when Terran has limited micro.
With two sources of potentially lethal AoE it is very hard for me to quickly and decisively deal with both.
Missing even one Templar or being short on a few Vikings can end the game for me.
MMM is and always will be a glass cannon and is incredibly fragile as such.
Amazing micro is what prevents that glass cannon from dying so quickly and amazing micro is that one thing only top level Terrans truly possess.
At the highest tier of play I have no doubt the amount of micro for Protoss is also incredibly high, but at the low and mid levels the micro required to win an engagement against MMM feels lower than the micro required to win with it.
Whether there actually is a significant imbalance remains hard to say because I think true micro is a difficult thing to have balance discussions about, so I can only relay how it often feels for me playing against the deathball myself.
|
On March 17 2014 16:32 Pursuit_ wrote:
I definitely get frustrated by the fact that while I can often get good EMP's off on a Protoss army that doesn't win me the game outright like it would have if my opponent got good storms onto all of my army, and that I'm always the one stuck reacting to what my opponent is doing in terms of composition, that my army (arguably) requires a lot more control than my opponents ect, but I love playing Terran because of how much I can do with my units, being able to pick my opponent apart with multitasking or decimate their army with proper splits / kiting, the constant fighting to control the game's tempo or the rush I get when I land that last second emp on those HT and grasp victory from defeat. Protoss might be slightly stronger than Terran at the moment, and I definitely think it's true that Protoss has a few too many core units that don't require great control to use, but in terms of mid-late game balance I don't think there are any problems.
The major issue I have with TvP is the early game situation of Protoss having about a dozen openings each with at least a dozen variations and all requiring very different responses and looking very similar, while Terran has really only 2 openings with maybe 2-3 variations of both that dont really require different responses from Protoss. It feels like it's becoming more and more rare for a Terran to go into the mid game on even footing, but when they do it seems like a lot of great games can be produced. Polt's mid-late game honestly doesn't seem extraordinarily impressive to me, or at least I think there are other Terran players who can play out the mid-late game as well as he can, it's his ability to get into the mid-late game without being behind more often than any other Terran player that makes him one of if not the best TvP player in the world atm.
There's really two distinct problems:
1. Protoss has more possible strategies than Terran, and those strategies require different, mutually exclusive responses. So early, thorough scouting is necessary, but at least they CAN be scouted. The problem is that this forces T into a reactive game, and requires a Reaper opening to get the scouting - and this results in boring play for T in PvT.
2. But also, P has a low-risk gambit in the "Blink all-in". But it's not an all-in, as we know - its more of a gambit because P is not locked in to the attack. Instead, the THREAT is the problem. If Terran invests in defense, P macros and wins. If T doesn't invest in defense, then P just attacks and kills T. The maps are not helping, by providing so many blink-in routes that T's defense is prohibitively expensive.
tl;dr: Blink is the Toss equivalent of Medivac drops - the flexibility of picking an attack path after seeing the defenses. After all, if Toss has no anti-air, drop where you want! So why is Blink more powerful? warpins? recall? cheaper?
|
Making the:
Micro
Macro
More equal across the board is something i think is good for the games health, on top of that it would be funnier to play
and observe the game to.
MICRO
+ Show Spoiler +
Making protoss require more micro also means some units would get buffed.
Imagine zealots with a manual charge that can be used on the ground to position themself.
The charge also increases the movementspeed for the zealots rapidly for 5seconds(almost as fast as a stimmed unit or maybe even faster)
Make his charge ability able to remove root(fungal), slow(marauder slow) while used and for 5seconds afterwards
those abilities are 50% effective only.
And for the stalker:
I dont want the maruader->stalker, nor do i want the unut to be all about the blink:
So nerf it, redesign it or remove blink. Instead->
+1range
25less minerals
More dmg to light units. Maybe with an upgrade: More dmg vs armored to:
And Nerf the marauder slow against armored units: Maybe evne remove it vs armored units.
So zealots can now flank, position themself in combat, even when the battle have started, while stalkers way more relevant and not just about their blink(stupid ablitiy imo)
And bio will need to micro more careful now to and not just shoot and back, shoot and back. More depth for both already
zealots,stalkers=bio=The one with the best micro, decisions, multitasking wins
and not Bio>zealots,stalkers
The colossous:
Forces zerg and terran to go air.
With a 3+~ of that unit, the enemy cant really attack into protoss:
Sentrie:
Same here: Enemy cant really show alot of skill or micro against it while the forcefield are placed while toss
can show skill and micro while its placed.
I would either remove colossous, or make him:
1) A micro unit
2) Good in very small numbers 1-2, and bad in higher numbers 3+
Sentrie
Instead of removing it i think it could be interesting if that field could get shoot down:
1) 3shoots to kill a forcefield:
Fast attack units such as hydralisk, marine good against it
While slower units such as: Marauder, tank, roach bad against it
I would also make sentrie a "true support unit" such as:
Maybe a spell that makes friendly units move faster for x direction
A spell that removes the next 3attacks: Singletarget spell or aoe
High templar:
The spell storm can be interesting imo while feedback is pretty much never interesting.
Smaller numbers of templars=The storm matters more
while in higher numbers toss pretty much spams the spell.
I know there are plenty of things that can work with this spell, so just to mention a few
that can be done
1) a short animation before the templar casts it(even in broodwar the templar had a short animation)
2) The first 1-2 sec the storm do no damage, so instead the storm lasts 4sec it lasts 6sec
3) remove feedback/get something more interesting there.
Mothership core:
So with my direction timewarp not needed or his nexus cannon either: They get removed
Instead i would remove warpgate from the gateways and get warpgate to him:
1) Able to warpin units that are done already anywhere where there is an warpprism or pylon:
2) Remove the 1 per limit
3) He unlocks later
(Gateway units macro same as terran now)
One build i loved from wol is the 1techlab marauder poke vs protoss. Iam gonna try and explain:
1) Its micro involved from the opening
2) Decision making very important, what units to macro, should I go expansion with defence or should i go
the tech direction.
Its like the action starts early while the micro and decision are there already for terran
My direction with toss:
1) He doesnt need a deathball to fight now, aka no colossous
2) His early units are good
3) Toss have more tools: More "consistent" tools
So more or less this would make the game start alot sooner for Both.
So what i am saying is i want directions like these sooner not just in tvp.
Economy
Not gonna touch this subject very much
Making the economy more equal is imo very wise to.
The larva inject forces terran to go 3fast OB every game
or else he falls behind economy wise:
I dont call that good gameplay at all, i call that bad gameplay.
And toss are forced to go 3base or he falls behind.
So its not really an option for them, they are forced to it
Imagine if terran did not have to go 3 OB: Instead he can open from 2base 5barack with fast medivacs WITHOUT
beeing all-in or without doing it as a cheese.
Or toss can stay on 2base, start an agression without beeing all-in or a cheese
Dont you think the game would be better this way?
So conclusion:
Redesign/remove the macromechanics.
terran,zerg
There are plenty of stuff to do with these races to:
Make support units more available
Make units more interesting
Make mech for terran available and more interesting
Not gonna touch alot about it. But the last thing i wanna mention is the creep spread:
Thats one more thing that goes against my approach: Its unique but gameplay suffers.
Remove the movementspeed is a good start.
So this is one direction to go out of plenty, and truthfully i think the game would be alot funnier with these changes.
|
Whenever I see Zest have all his army on one hotkey and lose zealots to locusts because he 1a's them with his colossi, lose void rays to corruptors as he's attacking broodlings with them, and lose colossi as they're attacking roaches instead of hydras, I wonder if he's really that amazing of a protoss player, but he's hyped as the top protoss sometimes. (all in the last proleague match vs soulkey, which he did win) And maybe he was busy multitasking somewhere else, but if so I didn't see it.
|
On March 17 2014 20:24 EthanS wrote:tl;dr: Blink is the Toss equivalent of Medivac drops - the flexibility of picking an attack path after seeing the defenses. After all, if Toss has no anti-air, drop where you want! So why is Blink more powerful? warpins? recall? cheaper?
Blink is more powerful because:
Blink is instant, while a Medivac drops 1 unit after another.
A Medivac can be sniped during or even before dropping units, which can weaken the attack severely, if not shut it down completely.
Stalkers are overall more beefy and damaged ones can be microed back to replenish shields.
So actually you can't compare Blink and Medivac drops. They're very different.
|
On March 17 2014 08:29 Kabras wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 07:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 17 2014 06:21 Loccstana wrote:
Not a balance change suggestion, but we need to do everything to make Protoss do more army micro. For example, we should get rid of smart cast for storms, make zealot charge manually activated, give collosus friendly fire damage, make photo overcharged a channeled ability, have forcefields unable to overlap, remove phoenix move attack, have time warp affect Protoss units as well. Salty much? I mean, that's a bit extreme don't you think? More seriously I think making something require micro just for the sake of it doesn't really make the game better. Those at the tip top will continue to use the units effectively and noobs will suffer. I think the game requires a lot of micro at the top level already. What I'd change are things that revolve around strategy. Give new abilities that can be used smartly. Make choices require good scouting, reward good scouting, and reward players who can think outside the box of the current meta. Simply requiring more APM to do the same things won't make the game more fun to watch or play. no, it would make it fair for the races that can't a-move their whole army without getting melted no matter what composition they have
This is the kind of stuff that just destroys someones credibility lol
Also @Loccstana, those changes are just ridiculous lol All of them, simply ridiculous lol You guys are the kind of ppl that don't actually want a balanced game, you just want Protoss to be sh*t lol
|
SC2 wont have something that BW has which is 2 minute long fights where one player might get an advantage in the beginning of the fight, his counterpart catching up (in the fight) in the middle and then the fight gets decided in the last third by the better microing player closely.
SC2 mechanics will either give one or the other the edge. If protoss gets somehow nerfed then we will watch protosses getting overpowered by stimed bio again in the future. There wont be any kind of real balance possible in this game with bio staying as strong and overtuned as it is. It is either bio owns all protoss or splash owns bio. And this is a situation that frustrates players (no matter who at this point has the edge) as you cant do anything about it as a player. (This just in general).
But I said this already months ago.
The simple fix for this whole game is removing mechanics like e.g. those that allow bio in late game fights to eat up everything within seconds. Because this requires other races to have splash that eats up bio within seconds and after all we have the deathball 3-5 second decisive fight time in the game.
|
HOnestly TvP is no where near as bad as it used to be atleast right now. The only thing I would like to see is something invented to fix the instant remax effect for toss.... As terran if you take down the entire protoss army you have to fight the next 2 waves each diminishing in power its true but after the main fight if you don't have a HUGE army by the time the first fight is done toss can defend and recover.... while Terran loses a major fight and there is like 1 colo left and a few zealots Protoss just snowballs to victory pretty ez. Atleast this has been my experience. Personally I like the fact that toss has a chance to recover and would like something for terran to help in this regard. Maybe I'm just not playing it right but it seems like no matter what PFs in key locations or not it seems to happen the same way 1 bad engagement ends the game for T and 2-3 bad engagements ends the game for Toss..... Any Ideas on how to fix this would be awesome 
Please discuss ....
|
On March 17 2014 23:36 LSN wrote:
SC2 wont have something that BW has which is 2 minute long fights where one player might get an advantage in the beginning of the fight, his counterpart catching up (in the fight) in the middle and then the fight gets decided in the last third by the better microing player.
SC2 mechanics will either give one or the other the edge. If protoss gets somehow nerfed then we will watch protosses getting overpowered by stimed bio again in the future. There wont be any kind of real balance possible in this game with bio staying as strong and overtuned as it is. It is either bio owns all protoss or splash owns bio. And this is a situation that frustrates players (no matter who at this point has the edge) as you cant do anything about it as a player (apart of all the stuff like blink timings etc.).
But I said this already months ago.
The simple fix for this whole game is removing mechanics that allow bio in late game fights to eat up everything within seconds. Because this requires other races to have splash that eats up bio within seconds and after all we have the deathball 3-5 second decisive fight time in the game.
I don't know why Blizzard never experimented with a global 30% reduction in attack speeds of units. Everything in this game just does so much damage.
|
I think the key will be slower global resource gaining (slower base saturation or slower mining time). This would stretch the early and midgame. After that other changes will become obvious.
Slower saturation of bases would make 1vs2 base or 2vs3 base scenarios less pressuring for the player with the lesser amount of bases. When one guy is one base up he still might not have enaugh peons to saturate them and therefore advantages from this will have a slower pace. etc.
|
On March 17 2014 23:42 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 23:36 LSN wrote:
SC2 wont have something that BW has which is 2 minute long fights where one player might get an advantage in the beginning of the fight, his counterpart catching up (in the fight) in the middle and then the fight gets decided in the last third by the better microing player.
SC2 mechanics will either give one or the other the edge. If protoss gets somehow nerfed then we will watch protosses getting overpowered by stimed bio again in the future. There wont be any kind of real balance possible in this game with bio staying as strong and overtuned as it is. It is either bio owns all protoss or splash owns bio. And this is a situation that frustrates players (no matter who at this point has the edge) as you cant do anything about it as a player (apart of all the stuff like blink timings etc.).
But I said this already months ago.
The simple fix for this whole game is removing mechanics that allow bio in late game fights to eat up everything within seconds. Because this requires other races to have splash that eats up bio within seconds and after all we have the deathball 3-5 second decisive fight time in the game. I don't know why Blizzard never experimented with a global 30% reduction in attack speeds of units. Everything in this game just does so much damage.
They are obsessed with everything being fast, fast, fast. Fast income, fast units, fast fights, high dmg etc.
|
United States7483 Posts
On March 17 2014 23:42 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 23:36 LSN wrote:
SC2 wont have something that BW has which is 2 minute long fights where one player might get an advantage in the beginning of the fight, his counterpart catching up (in the fight) in the middle and then the fight gets decided in the last third by the better microing player.
SC2 mechanics will either give one or the other the edge. If protoss gets somehow nerfed then we will watch protosses getting overpowered by stimed bio again in the future. There wont be any kind of real balance possible in this game with bio staying as strong and overtuned as it is. It is either bio owns all protoss or splash owns bio. And this is a situation that frustrates players (no matter who at this point has the edge) as you cant do anything about it as a player (apart of all the stuff like blink timings etc.).
But I said this already months ago.
The simple fix for this whole game is removing mechanics that allow bio in late game fights to eat up everything within seconds. Because this requires other races to have splash that eats up bio within seconds and after all we have the deathball 3-5 second decisive fight time in the game. I don't know why Blizzard never experimented with a global 30% reduction in attack speeds of units. Everything in this game just does so much damage.
Would be a huge buff to melee units. One of the major advantages of ranged units vs. melee is that you kill them before they get to attack at all because you do tons of damage before they get close. With a global attack speed penalty, those lings or chargelots won't die before they reach you, so they'll do some damage instead of none. Further, there are too many unit interactions that would be ruined. PDD would become insanely powerful, banelings would have no penalty whatsoever or nerf, whereras every other attacking unit got nerfed, spellcasters become way stronger in comparison, etc. etc.
|
On March 18 2014 00:58 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 23:42 Grumbels wrote:On March 17 2014 23:36 LSN wrote:
SC2 wont have something that BW has which is 2 minute long fights where one player might get an advantage in the beginning of the fight, his counterpart catching up (in the fight) in the middle and then the fight gets decided in the last third by the better microing player.
SC2 mechanics will either give one or the other the edge. If protoss gets somehow nerfed then we will watch protosses getting overpowered by stimed bio again in the future. There wont be any kind of real balance possible in this game with bio staying as strong and overtuned as it is. It is either bio owns all protoss or splash owns bio. And this is a situation that frustrates players (no matter who at this point has the edge) as you cant do anything about it as a player (apart of all the stuff like blink timings etc.).
But I said this already months ago.
The simple fix for this whole game is removing mechanics that allow bio in late game fights to eat up everything within seconds. Because this requires other races to have splash that eats up bio within seconds and after all we have the deathball 3-5 second decisive fight time in the game. I don't know why Blizzard never experimented with a global 30% reduction in attack speeds of units. Everything in this game just does so much damage. Would be a huge buff to melee units. One of the major advantages of ranged units vs. melee is that you kill them before they get to attack at all because you do tons of damage before they get close. With a global attack speed penalty, those lings or chargelots won't die before they reach you, so they'll do some damage instead of none. Further, there are too many unit interactions that would be ruined. PDD would become insanely powerful, banelings would have no penalty whatsoever or nerf, whereras every other attacking unit got nerfed, spellcasters become way stronger in comparison, etc. etc.
small combats would be a mess.
early harassment options would suck since the build time of statics stays the same. Harassment would take a huge blow in general, since the human reaction time doesn't change.
Spellbased combat would be relatively buffed by a lot (storms, fungals, medivac healing).
Not to mention specific stuff like canonrushes (how do you kill canons before they get up with 30% less damagingdrones?).
Also I question the intention behind this in general. People talk about "terrible, terrible" damage as if the attack/defense relations in SC2 were so high. They are essentially the same as in SC1. That hasn't changed at all, some of them are even lower - roach instead of hydralisk; faster/weaker zerglings; stalkers are a tiny beat weaker than dragoons on average - but let's not go too deep into it. They are essentially the same. Other things have changed, but that doesn't make attack damage the root of the perceived problem. Meanwhile I do very well enjoy that things like buildings can be killed with smaller amounts of units in SC2. That was something I really disliked about WC3 to give an example.
|
Would be a huge buff to melee units. One of the major advantages of ranged units vs. melee is that you kill them before they get to attack at all because you do tons of damage before they get close. With a global attack speed penalty, those lings or chargelots won't die before they reach you, so they'll do some damage instead of none. Further, there are too many unit interactions that would be ruined. PDD would become insanely powerful, banelings would have no penalty whatsoever or nerf, whereras every other attacking unit got nerfed, spellcasters become way stronger in comparison, etc. etc.
Whats stopping them from reducing the move speed of certain units to make it NOT imba for both camps so that you couldn't just kite it to death but they wouldn't just own you instantly
|
The same DPS + much better pathing= terrible terrible dmg
I think it's ok though for Terran and Zerg. It's the usual Protoss deathball that makes this stand out a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
