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On March 17 2014 06:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:18 sitromit wrote:On March 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:
Zerg cannot really have outstanding performances in WCS Europe because there is no Korean Zerg there. Just saying. Zerg is not having an outstanding performance anywhere, unless you count 2 Zergs in ro8 in Korea vs 1 Terran as an outstanding performance. Couldn't be clearer than my previous post. Also, had Soulkey advanced to RO8 you would have probably said nothing about Code S. You're quoting "2 Zergs vs 1 Terran in RO8," but you forget there were 13 Zergs vs 3 Terrans in RO32.
That rate of advancement seems pretty terrible though.
Oh well, I don't think it will be as bad as last year, where there was 2 zergs in the blizzcon ro16, and that number seemed to be repeated throughout other wcs finals.
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On March 17 2014 06:35 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:32 TheDwf wrote:On March 17 2014 06:31 Loccstana wrote:
Maybe to counter protoss blink builds, Terran should get some sort of command center cannon ability. For 100 energy orbitals can become a stationary siege tank for 60 seconds. We have enough of one MSC in the game! Whats wrong with that? I am just trying to use David Kim's thought process to balance the game.
We should get rid of problematic units and try to balance from there, not add units that are in almost every way a bandaid fix.
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On March 17 2014 06:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:18 sitromit wrote:On March 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:
Zerg cannot really have outstanding performances in WCS Europe because there is no Korean Zerg there. Just saying. Zerg is not having an outstanding performance anywhere, unless you count 2 Zergs in ro8 in Korea vs 1 Terran as an outstanding performance. Couldn't be clearer than my previous post. Also, had Soulkey advanced to RO8 you would have probably said nothing about Code S. You're quoting "2 Zergs vs 1 Terran in RO8," but you forget there were 13 Zergs vs 3 Terrans in RO32.
And all those Zergs got eliminated in the later stages of the tournament, as did all the Zergs in the later stages of all recent tournaments. But of course it's all coincidence...
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On March 17 2014 06:36 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:26 TheDwf wrote:On March 17 2014 06:18 sitromit wrote:On March 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:
Zerg cannot really have outstanding performances in WCS Europe because there is no Korean Zerg there. Just saying. Zerg is not having an outstanding performance anywhere, unless you count 2 Zergs in ro8 in Korea vs 1 Terran as an outstanding performance. Couldn't be clearer than my previous post. Also, had Soulkey advanced to RO8 you would have probably said nothing about Code S. You're quoting "2 Zergs vs 1 Terran in RO8," but you forget there were 13 Zergs vs 3 Terrans in RO32. That rate of advancement seems pretty terrible though. Oh well, I don't think it will be as bad as last year, where there was 2 zergs in the blizzcon ro16, and that number seemed to be repeated throughout other wcs finals.
13/32 → 5/16 → 2/8 doesn't seem off considering a balanced distribution would give 10 or 11, then 5 or 6, then 2 or 3 for RO32, RO16 or RO8.
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On March 17 2014 06:44 TheDwf wrote:
13/32 → 5/16 → 2/8 doesn't seem off considering a balanced distribution would give 10 or 11, then 5 or 6, then 2 or 3 for RO32, RO16 or RO8.
Glad someone points this out
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On March 17 2014 06:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:36 bo1b wrote:On March 17 2014 06:26 TheDwf wrote:On March 17 2014 06:18 sitromit wrote:On March 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:
Zerg cannot really have outstanding performances in WCS Europe because there is no Korean Zerg there. Just saying. Zerg is not having an outstanding performance anywhere, unless you count 2 Zergs in ro8 in Korea vs 1 Terran as an outstanding performance. Couldn't be clearer than my previous post. Also, had Soulkey advanced to RO8 you would have probably said nothing about Code S. You're quoting "2 Zergs vs 1 Terran in RO8," but you forget there were 13 Zergs vs 3 Terrans in RO32. That rate of advancement seems pretty terrible though. Oh well, I don't think it will be as bad as last year, where there was 2 zergs in the blizzcon ro16, and that number seemed to be repeated throughout other wcs finals. 13/32 → 5/16 → 2/8 doesn't seem off considering a balanced distribution would give 10 or 11, then 5 or 6, then 2 or 3 for RO32, RO16 or RO8.
Is it that simple though? If zerg some how gets 20 people through and then has the next round with 6 is that not worrying on two fronts? One because so many managed to get through, and two because apparently zergs winrate is atrocious.
I needed to spend more time studying statistics I guess before I make judgements on the matter, but it just can't be that simplistic.
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On March 17 2014 06:49 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:44 TheDwf wrote:
13/32 → 5/16 → 2/8 doesn't seem off considering a balanced distribution would give 10 or 11, then 5 or 6, then 2 or 3 for RO32, RO16 or RO8. Glad someone points this out
We also had 2 Zerg and 2 Terran in the GSL semi finals twice during the very end of WoL. Most people didn't think it was balanced though.
This isn't about numbers from one region, 1 Zerg more or less, look at every single premier tournament played recently, and Protoss is extremely dominant in the latter stages of all tournaments. If only TvP is imbalanced, who's pushing all the Zergs out? Why don't we see more PvZ finals?
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On March 17 2014 06:57 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:49 neptunusfisk wrote:On March 17 2014 06:44 TheDwf wrote:
13/32 → 5/16 → 2/8 doesn't seem off considering a balanced distribution would give 10 or 11, then 5 or 6, then 2 or 3 for RO32, RO16 or RO8. Glad someone points this out We also had 2 Zerg and 2 Terran in the GSL semi finals twice during the very end of WoL. Most people didn't think it was balanced though. This isn't about numbers from one region, 1 Zerg more or less, look at every single premier tournament played recently, and Protoss is extremely dominant in the latter stages of all tournaments. If only TvP is imbalanced, who's pushing all the Zergs out? Why don't we see more PvZ finals?
This will sound ridiculous, but I honestly think that a lot of zergs for the past little while have been in some sort of group slump, and only now are they pulling themselves out of it.
Drg looks like he's ready to start winning everything in team leagues again, and his vT is again looking unstoppable, life looked on point in iem in regards to his micro, and outside of some poor decisions he should have won 3:0 vs taeja, hyun looked really good vs hero until he too decided to throw, rogue is coming up as is solar.
That justification sounds weak, but I look at lot of games zerg plays where they inexplicably throw despite having an advantage. Maybe those days are over.
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Since it seems Blizzard wants the widow mine to play a bigger role in pvt (cfr. recent patch) I'd like to see an extra change to make it very hard for blink stalkers to dodge them. Today any top protoss can work around them easily.
Though making it impossible to dodge widow mines with blink would not reward really good micro play. It should come to a point where a protoss pro feels reluctant to bother to micro against it and just sacrifices some unit to set off the mine instead. Thus making blink attacks more risky / weaker.
So far I've seen mainly Maru make good use of that widow mine shield damage buff.
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On March 17 2014 07:05 anessie wrote:
Since it seems Blizzard wants the widow mine to play a bigger role in pvt (cfr. recent patch) I'd like to see an extra change to make it very hard for blink stalkers to dodge them. Today any top protoss can work around them easily.
Though making it impossible to dodge widow mines with blink would not reward really good micro play. It should come to a point where a protoss pro feels reluctant to bother to micro against it and just sacrifices some unit to set off the mine instead. Thus making blink attacks more risky / weaker.
So far I've seen mainly Maru make good use of that widow mine shield damage buff.
That sounds horrible, micro should absolutely be rewarded.
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On March 17 2014 07:07 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 07:05 anessie wrote:
Since it seems Blizzard wants the widow mine to play a bigger role in pvt (cfr. recent patch) I'd like to see an extra change to make it very hard for blink stalkers to dodge them. Today any top protoss can work around them easily.
Though making it impossible to dodge widow mines with blink would not reward really good micro play. It should come to a point where a protoss pro feels reluctant to bother to micro against it and just sacrifices some unit to set off the mine instead. Thus making blink attacks more risky / weaker.
So far I've seen mainly Maru make good use of that widow mine shield damage buff.
That sounds horrible, micro should absolutely be rewarded.
Hence I said not making it impossible?
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On March 17 2014 07:09 anessie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 07:07 bo1b wrote:On March 17 2014 07:05 anessie wrote:
Since it seems Blizzard wants the widow mine to play a bigger role in pvt (cfr. recent patch) I'd like to see an extra change to make it very hard for blink stalkers to dodge them. Today any top protoss can work around them easily.
Though making it impossible to dodge widow mines with blink would not reward really good micro play. It should come to a point where a protoss pro feels reluctant to bother to micro against it and just sacrifices some unit to set off the mine instead. Thus making blink attacks more risky / weaker.
So far I've seen mainly Maru make good use of that widow mine shield damage buff.
That sounds horrible, micro should absolutely be rewarded. Hence I said not making it impossible?
Making something so difficult to micro against that a pro feels reluctant to bother with is pretty indicative that it's pretty much un-microable.
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On March 17 2014 07:04 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:57 sitromit wrote:On March 17 2014 06:49 neptunusfisk wrote:On March 17 2014 06:44 TheDwf wrote:
13/32 → 5/16 → 2/8 doesn't seem off considering a balanced distribution would give 10 or 11, then 5 or 6, then 2 or 3 for RO32, RO16 or RO8. Glad someone points this out We also had 2 Zerg and 2 Terran in the GSL semi finals twice during the very end of WoL. Most people didn't think it was balanced though. This isn't about numbers from one region, 1 Zerg more or less, look at every single premier tournament played recently, and Protoss is extremely dominant in the latter stages of all tournaments. If only TvP is imbalanced, who's pushing all the Zergs out? Why don't we see more PvZ finals? This will sound ridiculous, but I honestly think that a lot of zergs for the past little while have been in some sort of group slump, and only now are they pulling themselves out of it. Drg looks like he's ready to start winning everything in team leagues again, and his vT is again looking unstoppable, life looked on point in iem in regards to his micro, and outside of some poor decisions he should have won 3:0 vs taeja, hyun looked really good vs hero until he too decided to throw, rogue is coming up as is solar. That justification sounds weak, but I look at lot of games zerg plays where they inexplicably throw despite having an advantage. Maybe those days are over.
It's always easy to pick apart individual games and say so and so lost because they made a mistake, you could do that at any point in the history of the game including those periods which are now widely accepted to have been out of balance. Ultimately, there's one race at the top dominating both races, and I think someone needs to point out that it's not just 1 race, Terran, being dominated but Zerg too. Just fixing Blink all in timings in PvT won't change this. It needs to be looked at. Immortal all ins have needed to be looked at since WoL, for one. The impact of the MSC in the PvZ matchup needs a serious looking at.
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On March 17 2014 07:10 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 07:09 anessie wrote:On March 17 2014 07:07 bo1b wrote:On March 17 2014 07:05 anessie wrote:
Since it seems Blizzard wants the widow mine to play a bigger role in pvt (cfr. recent patch) I'd like to see an extra change to make it very hard for blink stalkers to dodge them. Today any top protoss can work around them easily.
Though making it impossible to dodge widow mines with blink would not reward really good micro play. It should come to a point where a protoss pro feels reluctant to bother to micro against it and just sacrifices some unit to set off the mine instead. Thus making blink attacks more risky / weaker.
So far I've seen mainly Maru make good use of that widow mine shield damage buff.
That sounds horrible, micro should absolutely be rewarded. Hence I said not making it impossible? Making something so difficult to micro against that a pro feels reluctant to bother with is pretty indicative that it's pretty much un-microable.
What about making widow mines double hit (split the usual damage) and only one of the two hits can be blinked out? It's still a reward to avoid half the damage then.
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On March 17 2014 06:21 Loccstana wrote:
Not a balance change suggestion, but we need to do everything to make Protoss do more army micro. For example, we should get rid of smart cast for storms, make zealot charge manually activated, give collosus friendly fire damage, make photo overcharged a channeled ability, have forcefields unable to overlap, remove phoenix move attack, have time warp affect Protoss units as well.
Salty much?
I mean, that's a bit extreme don't you think? More seriously I think making something require micro just for the sake of it doesn't really make the game better. Those at the tip top will continue to use the units effectively and noobs will suffer.
I think the game requires a lot of micro at the top level already. What I'd change are things that revolve around strategy. Give new abilities that can be used smartly. Make choices require good scouting, reward good scouting, and reward players who can think outside the box of the current meta.
Simply requiring more APM to do the same things won't make the game more fun to watch or play.
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On March 17 2014 07:16 anessie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 07:10 bo1b wrote:On March 17 2014 07:09 anessie wrote:On March 17 2014 07:07 bo1b wrote:On March 17 2014 07:05 anessie wrote:
Since it seems Blizzard wants the widow mine to play a bigger role in pvt (cfr. recent patch) I'd like to see an extra change to make it very hard for blink stalkers to dodge them. Today any top protoss can work around them easily.
Though making it impossible to dodge widow mines with blink would not reward really good micro play. It should come to a point where a protoss pro feels reluctant to bother to micro against it and just sacrifices some unit to set off the mine instead. Thus making blink attacks more risky / weaker.
So far I've seen mainly Maru make good use of that widow mine shield damage buff.
That sounds horrible, micro should absolutely be rewarded. Hence I said not making it impossible? Making something so difficult to micro against that a pro feels reluctant to bother with is pretty indicative that it's pretty much un-microable. What about making widow mines double hit (split the usual damage) and only one of the two hits can be blinked out? It's still a reward to avoid half the damage then.
I actually don't think the widow mine needs a change at all vs protoss. They allready fulfill there function reasonably well, and while I would like to see the parade pushing bio mine style roll over protoss for the next few months until they learn how to split zealots against mines, I just don't think that it would benefit the game at all.
I'd much rather look at the two really problematic things in the early game - blink stalkers, and oracles. The latter being so dangerous that every single build absolutely must be built around having enough marines out at a certain time. Maybe reducing the starting energy of an oracle until you get an upgrade at the cyber core or something could be good.
I don't really know how to fix blink, nor do I have any ideas.
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On March 17 2014 06:55 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:44 TheDwf wrote:On March 17 2014 06:36 bo1b wrote:On March 17 2014 06:26 TheDwf wrote:On March 17 2014 06:18 sitromit wrote:On March 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:
Zerg cannot really have outstanding performances in WCS Europe because there is no Korean Zerg there. Just saying. Zerg is not having an outstanding performance anywhere, unless you count 2 Zergs in ro8 in Korea vs 1 Terran as an outstanding performance. Couldn't be clearer than my previous post. Also, had Soulkey advanced to RO8 you would have probably said nothing about Code S. You're quoting "2 Zergs vs 1 Terran in RO8," but you forget there were 13 Zergs vs 3 Terrans in RO32. That rate of advancement seems pretty terrible though. Oh well, I don't think it will be as bad as last year, where there was 2 zergs in the blizzcon ro16, and that number seemed to be repeated throughout other wcs finals. 13/32 → 5/16 → 2/8 doesn't seem off considering a balanced distribution would give 10 or 11, then 5 or 6, then 2 or 3 for RO32, RO16 or RO8. Is it that simple though? If zerg some how gets 20 people through and then has the next round with 6 is that not worrying on two fronts? One because so many managed to get through, and two because apparently zergs winrate is atrocious. I needed to spend more time studying statistics I guess before I make judgements on the matter, but it just can't be that simplistic.
Perhaps there should have been statistically one extra Zerg in the RO16 this season; I'm not a math expert, so I'm unsure if/how 3 groups with 2 Zergs affect this.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 17 2014 07:19 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:21 Loccstana wrote:
Not a balance change suggestion, but we need to do everything to make Protoss do more army micro. For example, we should get rid of smart cast for storms, make zealot charge manually activated, give collosus friendly fire damage, make photo overcharged a channeled ability, have forcefields unable to overlap, remove phoenix move attack, have time warp affect Protoss units as well. Salty much? I mean, that's a bit extreme don't you think? More seriously I think making something require micro just for the sake of it doesn't really make the game better. Those at the tip top will continue to use the units effectively and noobs will suffer. I think the game requires a lot of micro at the top level already. What I'd change are things that revolve around strategy. Give new abilities that can be used smartly. Make choices require good scouting, reward good scouting, and reward players who can think outside the box of the current meta. Simply requiring more APM to do the same things won't make the game more fun to watch or play.
No no, we should do this for every ability! Locusts should have to be manually activated, medivacs should have to be targeted on units to heal them, auto-repair should be removed, widow mines should have to be manually targeted, banelings should have their detonate ability be manually activated only, etc. etc.
Yeah, these ideas are really freaking stupid.
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Premiere events top 8 results in 2014:
20 Protoss, 13 Terran, 7 Zerg so far have made top 8 in premiere tournaments.
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On March 17 2014 07:19 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:21 Loccstana wrote:
Not a balance change suggestion, but we need to do everything to make Protoss do more army micro. For example, we should get rid of smart cast for storms, make zealot charge manually activated, give collosus friendly fire damage, make photo overcharged a channeled ability, have forcefields unable to overlap, remove phoenix move attack, have time warp affect Protoss units as well. Salty much? I mean, that's a bit extreme don't you think? More seriously I think making something require micro just for the sake of it doesn't really make the game better. Those at the tip top will continue to use the units effectively and noobs will suffer.
What a cynical argument considering low level Terrans have been unable to fight a-click Protoss deathballs since, like, forever. Equalizing micro requirements would simply make things fair.
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EPT
