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On March 18 2014 01:27 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +Would be a huge buff to melee units. One of the major advantages of ranged units vs. melee is that you kill them before they get to attack at all because you do tons of damage before they get close. With a global attack speed penalty, those lings or chargelots won't die before they reach you, so they'll do some damage instead of none. Further, there are too many unit interactions that would be ruined. PDD would become insanely powerful, banelings would have no penalty whatsoever or nerf, whereras every other attacking unit got nerfed, spellcasters become way stronger in comparison, etc. etc. Whats stopping them from reducing the move speed of certain units to make it NOT imba for both camps so that you couldn't just kite it to death but they wouldn't just own you instantly
Nothing. Get on it, it's probably only going to take you 2years to get that mod into a position as stable as SC2 is right now. Assuming everyone switches immidiatly so you have the crowd of players to balance around.
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On March 18 2014 01:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 00:58 Whitewing wrote:On March 17 2014 23:42 Grumbels wrote:On March 17 2014 23:36 LSN wrote:
SC2 wont have something that BW has which is 2 minute long fights where one player might get an advantage in the beginning of the fight, his counterpart catching up (in the fight) in the middle and then the fight gets decided in the last third by the better microing player.
SC2 mechanics will either give one or the other the edge. If protoss gets somehow nerfed then we will watch protosses getting overpowered by stimed bio again in the future. There wont be any kind of real balance possible in this game with bio staying as strong and overtuned as it is. It is either bio owns all protoss or splash owns bio. And this is a situation that frustrates players (no matter who at this point has the edge) as you cant do anything about it as a player (apart of all the stuff like blink timings etc.).
But I said this already months ago.
The simple fix for this whole game is removing mechanics that allow bio in late game fights to eat up everything within seconds. Because this requires other races to have splash that eats up bio within seconds and after all we have the deathball 3-5 second decisive fight time in the game. I don't know why Blizzard never experimented with a global 30% reduction in attack speeds of units. Everything in this game just does so much damage. Would be a huge buff to melee units. One of the major advantages of ranged units vs. melee is that you kill them before they get to attack at all because you do tons of damage before they get close. With a global attack speed penalty, those lings or chargelots won't die before they reach you, so they'll do some damage instead of none. Further, there are too many unit interactions that would be ruined. PDD would become insanely powerful, banelings would have no penalty whatsoever or nerf, whereras every other attacking unit got nerfed, spellcasters become way stronger in comparison, etc. etc. small combats would be a mess. early harassment options would suck since the build time of statics stays the same. Harassment would take a huge blow in general, since the human reaction time doesn't change. Spellbased combat would be relatively buffed by a lot (storms, fungals, medivac healing). Not to mention specific stuff like canonrushes (how do you kill canons before they get up with 30% less damagingdrones?). Also I question the intention behind this in general. People talk about "terrible, terrible" damage as if the attack/defense relations in SC2 were so high. They are essentially the same as in SC1. That hasn't changed at all, some of them are even lower - roach instead of hydralisk; faster/weaker zerglings; stalkers are a tiny beat weaker than dragoons on average - but let's not go too deep into it. They are essentially the same. Other things have changed, but that doesn't make attack damage the root of the perceived problem. Meanwhile I do very well enjoy that things like buildings can be killed with smaller amounts of units in SC2. That was something I really disliked about WC3 to give an example.
It is not just attack damage that is the core issue. Pathing and unit density also makes terrible terrible damage. If you take 30 marines (unstimmed for better comparison) and move them up a ramp to attack, you will see the huge difference between SC2 and BW. In SC2, the group of 30 marines move almost just as fast as one marine. In BW, the pathing makes this take much longer. The SC2 marines will also be in the AoE of 1 storm whereas the BW marines would be more spread.
That is why although technically tanks and storms are weaker in SC2 in term of range and raw numbers, they actually do a lot more damage. If we had BW tanks in SC, all TvT would be mech and TvZ would unplayable and mech TvP would not only be viable but OP.
In SC2, it is common to see 20-25 stalker all firing in an engagement, in BW, it would be like 8-9 in most situations.
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But regardless of the specific cause of the high damage output, why did Blizzard ship the game with it?
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I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP
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On March 18 2014 01:27 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +Would be a huge buff to melee units. One of the major advantages of ranged units vs. melee is that you kill them before they get to attack at all because you do tons of damage before they get close. With a global attack speed penalty, those lings or chargelots won't die before they reach you, so they'll do some damage instead of none. Further, there are too many unit interactions that would be ruined. PDD would become insanely powerful, banelings would have no penalty whatsoever or nerf, whereras every other attacking unit got nerfed, spellcasters become way stronger in comparison, etc. etc. Whats stopping them from reducing the move speed of certain units to make it NOT imba for both camps so that you couldn't just kite it to death but they wouldn't just own you instantly
So if you want to reduce not only damage output but also movement speed by 30%, aren't you mostly just wanting to play on a slower game speed?
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On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP
Wait they agreed on no rush?
Replay?
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On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay?
No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way.
Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him.
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On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him.
Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him.
But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. And best way to fix it that I can think of is to make MSC a defensive unit without offensive potential (at least not in the early game)
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United States7483 Posts
On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion.
Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers.
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On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers.
You can hold the blink but still get behind as terran.
Scouting blink and 3 gate tells you nothing because there are various ways protoss can play from that point.
If you prepare for the worst (6 gate blink), make 3-4 bunkers, pull 3-4SCVs per bunker to repair but he stayed at 3 gates and 1. took a fast expo behind it, or he 2. teched to colossus or storm or he 3. got double forge and started chronoing upgrades or 4. a combination of those, you fall behind either in economy, tech or upgrades.
Then you will hear people say "yeah but he didn't have ghosts", "he didn't have vikings", "he was behind in upgrades", "protoss was mining faster, that is why he was able to afford both colossus and storm before terran could make counters" etc.
While this is all true, there is often nothing terran can do to prevent any of those scenarios from happening, unless you scout the followup almost immediately or just gamble that he won't commit to an attack at all.
And you are talking about the strategy that had 80% success rate at last IEM. Sure, sample size is small but you can't just reduce it to "some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers".
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United States7483 Posts
On March 18 2014 03:02 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. You can hold the blink but still get behind as terran. Scouting blink and 3 gate tells you nothing because there are various ways protoss can play from that point. If you prepare for the worst (6 gate blink), make 3-4 bunkers, pull 3-4SCVs per bunker to repair but he stayed at 3 gates and 1. took a fast expo behind it, or he 2. teched to colossus or storm or he 3. got double forge and started chronoing upgrades or 4. a combination of those, you fall behind either in economy, tech or upgrades. Then you will hear people say "yeah but he didn't have ghosts", "he didn't have vikings", "he was behind in upgrades", "protoss was mining faster, that is why he was able to afford both colossus and storm before terran could make counters" etc. While this is all true, there is often nothing terran can do to prevent any of those scenarios from happening, unless you scout the followup almost immediately or just gamble that he won't commit to an attack at all. And you are talking about the strategy that had 80% success rate at last IEM. Sure, sample size is small but you can't just reduce it to "some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers".
Well that's just it though: the midgame has become even more heavily in terrans favor because the new widow mine buff makes it extremely difficult to go into templar before colossus (they eat zealots alive), and 3 base scv pulls still work just as well vs colossus openers as they did before. Protoss does these aggressive builds early on because it's actually quite difficult now to hold against unhindered terran aggression in the midgame.
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(The idea of slowing down global attack speed by 30% is bullshit btw.)
I think the thing to start with is slowing down expansion requirements for all races with slower saturation of bases. This would stretch the early and midgame.
Slower saturation of bases would make 1vs2 base or 2vs3 base scenarios less pressuring for the player with the lesser amount of bases. When one guy is one base up he still might not have enough peons to saturate them and therefore advantages from this will have a slower pace.
Mineral patches shouldn't be saturated with about 2 workers only. Requirement of 2nd/3rd/4th base pops in too early with constant peon production in order to not oversaturate existing bases or having to stop worker production and be all-in. Could be fixed by increasing the mining speed of peons and reducing the amount gathered. Aside of this just peon production time could be increased by a bit combined with changes to zerg inject mechanics.
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On March 18 2014 03:21 LSN wrote:
(The idea of slowing down global attack speed by 30% is bullshit btw.)
I think the thing to start with is slowing down expansion requirements for all races with slower saturation of bases. This would stretch the early and midgame.
Slower saturation of bases would make 1vs2 base or 2vs3 base scenarios less pressuring for the player with the lesser amount of bases. When one guy is one base up he still might not have enough peons to saturate them and therefore advantages from this will have a slower pace.
Mineral patches shouldn't be saturated with about 2 workers only. Requirement of 2nd/3rd/4th base pops in too early with constant peon production in order to not oversaturate existing bases or having to stop worker production and be all-in. Could be fixed by increasing the mining speed of peons and reducing the amount gathered. Aside of this just peon production time could be increased by a bit combined with changes to zerg inject mechanics.
There is nothing wrong with having to stop worker production.
Also there is nothing wrong with people having to take bases fast. It's pretty stupid having players make possibly gamedeciding moves from 1-2bases while never even having to expose themselves to justify even some small harassment investment against them.
It's rather a problem that players don't have to take 4th bases and it's probably a little too hard to recuperate from losses and are thus encouraged to only expand when they don't put a lot at stake.
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On March 18 2014 02:16 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 01:27 Pirfiktshon wrote:Would be a huge buff to melee units. One of the major advantages of ranged units vs. melee is that you kill them before they get to attack at all because you do tons of damage before they get close. With a global attack speed penalty, those lings or chargelots won't die before they reach you, so they'll do some damage instead of none. Further, there are too many unit interactions that would be ruined. PDD would become insanely powerful, banelings would have no penalty whatsoever or nerf, whereras every other attacking unit got nerfed, spellcasters become way stronger in comparison, etc. etc. Whats stopping them from reducing the move speed of certain units to make it NOT imba for both camps so that you couldn't just kite it to death but they wouldn't just own you instantly So if you want to reduce not only damage output but also movement speed by 30%, aren't you mostly just wanting to play on a slower game speed?
In Starbow the speed difference between zerglings and marines is lower than in Starcraft II, and the attack speed of marines is lower than in Starcraft II as well.
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Having to stop worker production is not the point. The problem that SC2 in general has without looking at the unit balance here is that games are too similar and give not enaugh options for players to design their play. If one player gets ahead with one base the other is too quickly in a do or die situation.
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On March 18 2014 04:44 LSN wrote:
Having to stop worker production is not the point. The problem that SC2 in general has without looking at the unit balance here is that games are too similar and give not enaugh options for players to design their play. If one player gets ahead with one base the other is too quickly in a do or die situation.
I believe you didn't think it through properly.
If there is no payoff for expanding because you cannot saturate, then why would I even expose myself and take another base to begin with? I mean, what you say is that you want the player with the extra base to not get a lead too fast, but then building another base quickly becomes just a weakness, if the opponent can safely 2base vs my exposed 3bases.
I guess it works a bit better with Zerg, because Zerg expansions are also production structures. So you can expand and get a return regardless of whether you mine or not. But putting a 400 Nexus investment out there when it takes you minutes to just break even is just not going to happen. You are basically going to create a lot of PvP like gameplay, where you 1base and build an army because you'd get punished for fast expanding since your expansion doesn't really pay off quickly. Then you are on 2bases and get a larger army, before you expand again because again, you'd just stop worker production since teching is so much better than pushing eco.
To avoid that you'd also have to change worker scaling, such that 3base with less workers can break even with 2base with more workers (diminshing returns to scale for the 2baser). Which then again puts pressure on the slower expanding player, which is what you wanted to avoid.
Note that same thing works for Broodwar/Sbow, because the units are balanced that way. Zerg actually just does need more bases than T or P and P more than T. "More money" does not lead to "a better situation" there, because of costefficiency reasons. It does however lead to the reverse problem, that equal bases is a big no-go for some races in some matchups and it can quickly lead to a hard to overcome army/tech lead for the opponent and you are still forced into - what you call - narrow strategic options that are allinning or just expanding yourself.
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On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers.
Polt vs Dear G1, Polt vs herO G1 & G3, Polt went 1 win and 3 losses vs blink openings at Katowice, I hardly think thats a good example of 'holding blink stalkers np', and Polt is probably the best Terran player in the world at the moment at getting into the mid game without beind behind. It's not about Terran's playing greedy, it's about Terran's not being able to get the information they need reliably.
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On March 18 2014 03:14 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 03:02 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. You can hold the blink but still get behind as terran. Scouting blink and 3 gate tells you nothing because there are various ways protoss can play from that point. If you prepare for the worst (6 gate blink), make 3-4 bunkers, pull 3-4SCVs per bunker to repair but he stayed at 3 gates and 1. took a fast expo behind it, or he 2. teched to colossus or storm or he 3. got double forge and started chronoing upgrades or 4. a combination of those, you fall behind either in economy, tech or upgrades. Then you will hear people say "yeah but he didn't have ghosts", "he didn't have vikings", "he was behind in upgrades", "protoss was mining faster, that is why he was able to afford both colossus and storm before terran could make counters" etc. While this is all true, there is often nothing terran can do to prevent any of those scenarios from happening, unless you scout the followup almost immediately or just gamble that he won't commit to an attack at all. And you are talking about the strategy that had 80% success rate at last IEM. Sure, sample size is small but you can't just reduce it to "some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers". Well that's just it though: the midgame has become even more heavily in terrans favor because the new widow mine buff makes it extremely difficult to go into templar before colossus (they eat zealots alive), and 3 base scv pulls still work just as well vs colossus openers as they did before. Protoss does these aggressive builds early on because it's actually quite difficult now to hold against unhindered terran aggression in the midgame.
more heavily in Terran's favor? Half of the games I'm watching doesn't even have a proper midgame since Protoss can deny scouting and aggression and get a fast 3rd up. (Maru vs Zest, Proleague)
Protoss has literally has builds that's just as good as any Terran eco build, but can also kill the Terran if they don't properly prepare defenses. How is that fair at all when late game TvP has been out of control for the Protoss for the longest time? Do you even watch games?
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On March 18 2014 22:29 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 03:14 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 03:02 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:45 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:44 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 18 2014 02:38 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 18 2014 02:23 Foxxan wrote:On March 18 2014 02:15 Qwerty85 wrote:
I really liked that Rain vs. Flash TvP. There is something nice about that gentleman's agreement they had in the game.
I won't cheese you, you won't cheese me. Lets determine the winner by who has better macro, map awareness, unit control etc.
It was so nice to see all the little details both of them put even in smallest things like building placement, those 2 marines that were spotters for warp prism, how fast both of them managed to see everything on the mini map etc.
It just goes to show that when TvP doesn't start with an early aggression from protoss like almost all IEM TvPs we've seen, protoss and terran can play both mid and late game on even terms.
I wouldn't even care if Flash lost that game and I now respect Rain even more after watching IEM and especially those PvP finals.
I would really love to see at least a test map of some sort that attaches or tethers the MSC to the nexus so that it can only be used defensively and that it covers both main and natural nexus. MSC could even have an upgrade that allows it to fly around later in the game (around mid game stage when protoss would take a third base etc.)
But as it is right now, especially with blink it is so strong that even if you defend, you still fall behind in economy, tech or upgrades. And you can't really fall behind in any of those too much if you want to have any chances at all to play a late game TvP Wait they agreed on no rush? Replay? No, they didn't agree directly but since Rain likes to play defensive and is not very cheesy/all inish and neither is Flash, the game turned out that way. Well, flash has been known to proxy rax or cheese occasionally, but Rain always plays super safe and careful, so there's no point in cheesing him. Yeah he tried it several times but it always backfired on him. But my point was how balanced that game looked and felt to me after watching all those IEM TvPs. It is really that early game aggression potential that protoss got in Hots that screwed the matchup in my opinion. Polt held the blink stalkers np, some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers. You can hold the blink but still get behind as terran. Scouting blink and 3 gate tells you nothing because there are various ways protoss can play from that point. If you prepare for the worst (6 gate blink), make 3-4 bunkers, pull 3-4SCVs per bunker to repair but he stayed at 3 gates and 1. took a fast expo behind it, or he 2. teched to colossus or storm or he 3. got double forge and started chronoing upgrades or 4. a combination of those, you fall behind either in economy, tech or upgrades. Then you will hear people say "yeah but he didn't have ghosts", "he didn't have vikings", "he was behind in upgrades", "protoss was mining faster, that is why he was able to afford both colossus and storm before terran could make counters" etc. While this is all true, there is often nothing terran can do to prevent any of those scenarios from happening, unless you scout the followup almost immediately or just gamble that he won't commit to an attack at all. And you are talking about the strategy that had 80% success rate at last IEM. Sure, sample size is small but you can't just reduce it to "some terrans just play greedy and then get burned by the stalkers". Well that's just it though: the midgame has become even more heavily in terrans favor because the new widow mine buff makes it extremely difficult to go into templar before colossus (they eat zealots alive), and 3 base scv pulls still work just as well vs colossus openers as they did before. Protoss does these aggressive builds early on because it's actually quite difficult now to hold against unhindered terran aggression in the midgame. more heavily in Terran's favor? Half of the games I'm watching doesn't even have a proper midgame since Protoss can deny scouting and aggression and get a fast 3rd up. (Maru vs Zest, Proleague) Protoss has literally has builds that's just as good as any Terran eco build, but can also kill the Terran if they don't properly prepare defenses. How is that fair at all when late game TvP has been out of control for the Protoss for the longest time? Do you even watch games?
He's incredibly objective about it all, don't worry.
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EPT
