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On March 16 2014 22:44 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:40 Salient wrote:
So much QQ. The issue is that 3-4 of the current maps seem to have been designed to maximize the power of blink all ins. It "can' work on better maps like Frost if the Toss outplays the Terran. That's fair. But Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night, and Deadalus are probably too blink-friendly. We need more maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Whirlwind, Akilon Wastes, Belshir Vestige, and Neo Planet S. Blink all ins would be viable on some of those maps, but it wouldn't be silly. We don't need ohana or vestige or akilon thats for sure, neo planet s I wouldn't mind so much if the gold was replaced, and we had like 10 seasons in a row of daybreak so I'm pretty glad it was subbed out. Also, maps really aren't causing all the problems.
They are responsible for a reasonable part of it.
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Some interesting stats from IEM TvPs
+ Show Spoiler +OVERALL STATISTICS:
Blink all-ins were successful 67% of the time, regardless of differences between the builds.
Blink all-ins that hit before the 9 minute mark resulted in a win 86% of the time (the only loss being Dear's twilight before nexus, 3 gate version)
Blink all-ins that hit after the 9 minute mark were sucessful 0% of the time (sOs vs Taeja G2 and herO vs Polt G4)
Blink all-ins where the MSC landed one or more timewarps on the bio were sucessful 86% of the time (the only exception being herO's all-in against polt on frost which came after the 9 minute mark).
The 6 gate blink all-in was succesful 80% of the time regardless of terran build.
The 3 gate blink all-in/pressure was successful 50% of the time regardless of terran build.
3 rax openings were the most successful Terran counter to the blink all-in, resulting in a win 43% of the time.
Against 3 gate they were successful 100% of the time.
Against 6 gate they were successful 20% of the time.
Terran 1 - 1 - 1 variation openings against the blink all-in were successful 0% of the time (NOTE: they were only used to expand not all-in).
Widow mine drops resulted in a win 0% of the time against blink all-ins.
Bunkers were completed and filled in everygame and seemed to be the least reliable indicator of outcome against blink all-ins. They seemed to only force the protoss player to attack into the main rather than the natural.
Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/20iqh2/some_iem_stats_and_details_on_pvt_blink_allins/
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Unfortunately, we would need hundreds of games for the statistics to be meaningful.
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On March 16 2014 22:40 Salient wrote:
So much QQ. The issue is that 3-4 of the current maps seem to have been designed to maximize the power of blink all ins. It "can' work on better maps like Frost if the Toss outplays the Terran. That's fair. But Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night, and Deadalus are probably too blink-friendly. We need more maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Whirlwind, Akilon Wastes, Belshir Vestige, and Neo Planet S. Blink all ins would be viable on some of those maps, but it wouldn't be silly.
Funny how three of the maps you mention (Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Bel'shir Vestige) are exactly the same or worse than Bel'shir Vestige or Daedalus when it comes to Blink. One day you will realize that the problem is not "maps" when 75% of the competitive maps ever used in Starcraft would suddenly become "problematic". If you were to return Neo Planet S to the map pool, I bet it would only be a matter of days before pure nonsense like proxy Oracle into gold into 5g Voids would rule out uncontested just like on Habitation. And let us not talk about cross Alterzim which leads to "highly innovative" unpunishable strategies like a quick third into 4 gate 3 stargate 88 probes Phoenixes/Colossi into Carriers!
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On March 16 2014 23:01 Salient wrote:
Unfortunately, we would need hundreds of games for the statistics to be meaningful.
Yeah I know. We have overall TvP stats but not the stats per build so I found it interesting since this is the first time I saw any numbers about the success rate of 2 base blink.
I wonder how high 1/1/1 got during its "prime".
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@Dwarf: you have no idea what you are talking about. Ohana, Akilon, and Belshir had less blink in points ( compared to Polar Night, Heavy Rain, etc.)
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On March 16 2014 23:01 Salient wrote:
Unfortunately, we would need hundreds of games for the statistics to be meaningful.
But once hundreds of games are played, you could say that it's invalid because not all of them are Polt vs herO level...
One day, I want to kidnap all those Korean progamers and have them play hundreds of games so that we can finally have "meaningful" statistics.
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On March 16 2014 23:06 Salient wrote:
@Dwarf: you have no idea what you are talking about. Ohana, Akilon, and Belshir had less blink in points ( compared to Polar Night, Heavy Rain, etc.)
Bring back Ohana and also keep yensou and Parting can Choo-choo every day all-day:D
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On March 16 2014 22:40 Salient wrote:
So much QQ. The issue is that 3-4 of the current maps seem to have been designed to maximize the power of blink all ins. It "can' work on better maps like Frost if the Toss outplays the Terran. That's fair. But Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night, and Deadalus are probably too blink-friendly. We need more maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Whirlwind, Akilon Wastes, Belshir Vestige, and Neo Planet S. Blink all ins would be viable on some of those maps, but it wouldn't be silly.
So a map pool for this IEM was
Heavy Rain
Polar Night
Yeonsu
Frost
Deadalus
Habitation
Alterzim
So 4/7 maps are great for blink, one is decent (Frost) and only 2 maps are bad blink maps, one of them (Habitation) not being good for blink but great for stargate play so again, it is protoss favored map (somewhere around 56%) Frost is also around 55-56% for protoss. Alterzim is almost 60% for protoss despite being a "great drop map".
So when you have 7/7 maps that are great/good for protoss, how exactly can you change the map pool to be even for both races? That would put way too much limitations on map makers and we would see same maps over and over again.
Also, how exactly does a good terran map looks like in Hots?
I think that designing maps around 1 race - protoss due to stuff like blink, WG, forcefields is the wrong approach.
Sure, some core stuff like WG and FF can't be changed but MSC and blink can be influenced by patches.
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On March 16 2014 23:14 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:40 Salient wrote:
So much QQ. The issue is that 3-4 of the current maps seem to have been designed to maximize the power of blink all ins. It "can' work on better maps like Frost if the Toss outplays the Terran. That's fair. But Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night, and Deadalus are probably too blink-friendly. We need more maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Whirlwind, Akilon Wastes, Belshir Vestige, and Neo Planet S. Blink all ins would be viable on some of those maps, but it wouldn't be silly. So a map pool for this IEM wasHeavy Rain Polar Night Yeonsu Frost Deadalus Habitation Alterzim So 4/7 maps are great for blink, one is decent (Frost) and only 2 maps are bad blink maps, one of them (Habitation) not being good for blink but great for stargate play so again, it is protoss favored map (somewhere around 56%) Frost is also around 55-56% for protoss. Alterzim is almost 60% for protoss despite being a "great drop map". So when you have 7/7 maps that are great/good for protoss, how exactly can you change the map pool to be even for both races? That would put way too much limitations on map makers and we would see same maps over and over again. Also, how exactly does a good terran map looks like in Hots? I think that designing maps around 1 race - protoss due to stuff like blink, WG, forcefields is the wrong approach. Sure, some core stuff like WG and FF can't be changed but MSC and blink can be influenced by patches.
At the moment we have blink and the soul train that need to be kept in mind when designing a map. I think it´s´´fair to say that making maps that aren't super good for either isn´t the easiest thing.
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On March 16 2014 23:17 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 23:14 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 16 2014 22:40 Salient wrote:
So much QQ. The issue is that 3-4 of the current maps seem to have been designed to maximize the power of blink all ins. It "can' work on better maps like Frost if the Toss outplays the Terran. That's fair. But Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night, and Deadalus are probably too blink-friendly. We need more maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Whirlwind, Akilon Wastes, Belshir Vestige, and Neo Planet S. Blink all ins would be viable on some of those maps, but it wouldn't be silly. So a map pool for this IEM wasHeavy Rain Polar Night Yeonsu Frost Deadalus Habitation Alterzim So 4/7 maps are great for blink, one is decent (Frost) and only 2 maps are bad blink maps, one of them (Habitation) not being good for blink but great for stargate play so again, it is protoss favored map (somewhere around 56%) Frost is also around 55-56% for protoss. Alterzim is almost 60% for protoss despite being a "great drop map". So when you have 7/7 maps that are great/good for protoss, how exactly can you change the map pool to be even for both races? That would put way too much limitations on map makers and we would see same maps over and over again. Also, how exactly does a good terran map looks like in Hots? I think that designing maps around 1 race - protoss due to stuff like blink, WG, forcefields is the wrong approach. Sure, some core stuff like WG and FF can't be changed but MSC and blink can be influenced by patches. At the moment we have blink and the soul train that need to be kept in mind when designing a map. I think it´s´´fair to say that making maps that aren't super good for either isn´t the easiest thing.
Yeah, why not just nerf protoss right ?
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On March 16 2014 23:17 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 23:14 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 16 2014 22:40 Salient wrote:
So much QQ. The issue is that 3-4 of the current maps seem to have been designed to maximize the power of blink all ins. It "can' work on better maps like Frost if the Toss outplays the Terran. That's fair. But Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night, and Deadalus are probably too blink-friendly. We need more maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Whirlwind, Akilon Wastes, Belshir Vestige, and Neo Planet S. Blink all ins would be viable on some of those maps, but it wouldn't be silly. So a map pool for this IEM wasHeavy Rain Polar Night Yeonsu Frost Deadalus Habitation Alterzim So 4/7 maps are great for blink, one is decent (Frost) and only 2 maps are bad blink maps, one of them (Habitation) not being good for blink but great for stargate play so again, it is protoss favored map (somewhere around 56%) Frost is also around 55-56% for protoss. Alterzim is almost 60% for protoss despite being a "great drop map". So when you have 7/7 maps that are great/good for protoss, how exactly can you change the map pool to be even for both races? That would put way too much limitations on map makers and we would see same maps over and over again. Also, how exactly does a good terran map looks like in Hots? I think that designing maps around 1 race - protoss due to stuff like blink, WG, forcefields is the wrong approach. Sure, some core stuff like WG and FF can't be changed but MSC and blink can be influenced by patches. At the moment we have blink and the soul train that need to be kept in mind when designing a map. I think it´s´´fair to say that making maps that aren't super good for either isn´t the easiest thing.
Protoss brings a lot of limitations;
FFE
Close third
Hard to blink main
Ramp to main (PVP)
Forcefield/ Time Warp
A good terran map probably has relatively short rush distances and spreads out a lot.
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On March 16 2014 23:06 Salient wrote:
@Dwarf: You have no idea what you are talking about. Ohana, Akilon, and Belshir had many less blink in points ( compared to Polar Night, Heavy Rain, etc.)
First, my nickname is not "Dwarf".
Second, please read what I wrote. I said: "Funny how three of the maps you mention (Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Bel'shir Vestige) are exactly the same or worse than Bel'shir Vestige or Daedalus when it comes to Blink." I didn't mention Heavy Rain or Yeonsu.
Third, you're the one who has no clue.
Polar Night = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; close third to main; front of the natural to main.
Ohana = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to main; outside to main ramp.
Akilon Wastes = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to natural; close third to main.
Difference? None.
Daedalus = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; third to main.
Bel'shir = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; outside to main.
Difference? None.
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On March 16 2014 23:06 Salient wrote:
@Dwarf: you have no idea what you are talking about. Ohana, Akilon, and Belshir had less blink in points ( compared to Polar Night, Heavy Rain, etc.)
You are out of your mind, if you brought back those three maps zerg would never win against protoss.
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On March 16 2014 23:14 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:40 Salient wrote:
So much QQ. The issue is that 3-4 of the current maps seem to have been designed to maximize the power of blink all ins. It "can' work on better maps like Frost if the Toss outplays the Terran. That's fair. But Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Polar Night, and Deadalus are probably too blink-friendly. We need more maps like Daybreak, Ohana, Whirlwind, Akilon Wastes, Belshir Vestige, and Neo Planet S. Blink all ins would be viable on some of those maps, but it wouldn't be silly. So a map pool for this IEM wasHeavy Rain Polar Night Yeonsu Frost Deadalus Habitation Alterzim So 4/7 maps are great for blink, one is decent (Frost) and only 2 maps are bad blink maps, one of them (Habitation) not being good for blink but great for stargate play so again, it is protoss favored map (somewhere around 56%) Frost is also around 55-56% for protoss. Alterzim is almost 60% for protoss despite being a "great drop map". So when you have 7/7 maps that are great/good for protoss, how exactly can you change the map pool to be even for both races? That would put way too much limitations on map makers and we would see same maps over and over again. Also, how exactly does a good terran map looks like in Hots? I think that designing maps around 1 race - protoss due to stuff like blink, WG, forcefields is the wrong approach. Sure, some core stuff like WG and FF can't be changed but MSC and blink can be influenced by patches.
Replacing or revising the 4 "great blink maps" would be a good start. At that point you can reevaluate the situation and consider removing timewarp if necessary.
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On March 16 2014 23:19 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 23:06 Salient wrote:
@Dwarf: You have no idea what you are talking about. Ohana, Akilon, and Belshir had many less blink in points ( compared to Polar Night, Heavy Rain, etc.) First, my nickname is not "Dwarf". Second, please read what I wrote. I said: "Funny how three of the maps you mention (Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Bel'shir Vestige) are exactly the same or worse than Bel'shir Vestige or Daedalus when it comes to Blink." I didn't mention Heavy Rain or Yeonsu. Third, you're the one who has no clue. Polar Night = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; close third to main; front of the natural to main. Ohana = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to main; outside to main ramp. Akilon Wastes = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to natural; close third to main. Difference? None. Daedalus = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; third to main. Bel'shir = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; outside to main. Difference? None.
It would also make tvz disgusting if we brought back ohana and bel'shir, pvz would have 4 maps with a guaranteed strategy.
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On March 16 2014 23:22 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 23:19 TheDwf wrote:On March 16 2014 23:06 Salient wrote:
@Dwarf: You have no idea what you are talking about. Ohana, Akilon, and Belshir had many less blink in points ( compared to Polar Night, Heavy Rain, etc.) First, my nickname is not "Dwarf". Second, please read what I wrote. I said: "Funny how three of the maps you mention (Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Bel'shir Vestige) are exactly the same or worse than Bel'shir Vestige or Daedalus when it comes to Blink." I didn't mention Heavy Rain or Yeonsu. Third, you're the one who has no clue. Polar Night = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; close third to main; front of the natural to main. Ohana = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to main; outside to main ramp. Akilon Wastes = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to natural; close third to main. Difference? None. Daedalus = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; third to main. Bel'shir = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; outside to main. Difference? None. It would also make tvz disgusting if we brought back ohana and bel'shir, pvz would have 4 maps with a guaranteed strategy.
Bel'shir did offer some of the best TvZ last year. Disgusting right.
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It's quite ez anyway : Remove 1 range from Immortal, Nerf Locusts/SH, Add 90s to blink research. Problem Solved.
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On March 16 2014 23:22 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 23:19 TheDwf wrote:On March 16 2014 23:06 Salient wrote:
@Dwarf: You have no idea what you are talking about. Ohana, Akilon, and Belshir had many less blink in points ( compared to Polar Night, Heavy Rain, etc.) First, my nickname is not "Dwarf". Second, please read what I wrote. I said: "Funny how three of the maps you mention (Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Bel'shir Vestige) are exactly the same or worse than Bel'shir Vestige or Daedalus when it comes to Blink." I didn't mention Heavy Rain or Yeonsu. Third, you're the one who has no clue. Polar Night = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; close third to main; front of the natural to main. Ohana = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to main; outside to main ramp. Akilon Wastes = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to natural; close third to main. Difference? None. Daedalus = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; third to main. Bel'shir = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; outside to main. Difference? None. It would also make tvz disgusting if we brought back ohana and bel'shir, pvz would have 4 maps with a guaranteed strategy.
The issue with Deadalus is the size of the blink in space in the natural AND main. It has a huge cliff face. Bigger by far than the good old maps I mentioned. And those old maps could be revised or just used for inspiration (e.g. make Ohana a bit longer with a bit wider chokes). I'm trying to be constructive here. But I feel like many people in this thread just QQ, blame Blizzard, and aren't open to other ideas.
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On March 16 2014 23:23 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 23:22 bo1b wrote:On March 16 2014 23:19 TheDwf wrote:On March 16 2014 23:06 Salient wrote:
@Dwarf: You have no idea what you are talking about. Ohana, Akilon, and Belshir had many less blink in points ( compared to Polar Night, Heavy Rain, etc.) First, my nickname is not "Dwarf". Second, please read what I wrote. I said: "Funny how three of the maps you mention (Ohana, Akilon Wastes, Bel'shir Vestige) are exactly the same or worse than Bel'shir Vestige or Daedalus when it comes to Blink." I didn't mention Heavy Rain or Yeonsu. Third, you're the one who has no clue. Polar Night = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; close third to main; front of the natural to main. Ohana = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to main; outside to main ramp. Akilon Wastes = 4 entrances: front at the natural; rocks at the natural; vertical third to natural; close third to main. Difference? None. Daedalus = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; third to main. Bel'shir = 3 entrances: front at the natural; ramp between main and natural; outside to main. Difference? None. It would also make tvz disgusting if we brought back ohana and bel'shir, pvz would have 4 maps with a guaranteed strategy. Bel'shir did offer some of the best TvZ last year. Disgusting right.
I think it would be pretty terrible, mech vs sh with narrow corridors like that.
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EPT
