EPTDo we really want another PvP final?
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 917
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
Do we really want another PvP final? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On March 16 2014 08:00 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: We've had 3 out of the last 4 premier tournaments be PvP finals. Do we really want another PvP final? http://esportsexpress.com/2014/02/terrans-breathe-sigh-of-relief-as-polt-loses-iem/ How upset are you that Polt ruined your statistic of 10 out of 10 protoss finalists this year? | ||
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
On March 16 2014 08:02 Grumbels wrote: http://esportsexpress.com/2014/02/terrans-breathe-sigh-of-relief-as-polt-loses-iem/ How upset are you that Polt ruined your statistic of 10 out of 10 protoss finalists this year? Pretty salty, not gonna lie. But that being said, I wish that the game was actually fun, regardless of who was winning. Unfortunately, blink play is not. | ||
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Foreverkul
United States1649 Posts
Solution: Blink set to 20s cooldown, cost 100m+100g time:140s Secondary Blink research to set cooldown to 10s, cost 75m+75g time:60s Overall cost increase +25m +25g +30s Side Effects: Blink can be researched slightly faster, but is significantly weaker in the early game and must be used more cautiously (wont be able to run away from Zerglings/Marines as easily). The initial cost makes it easier to get early, but secondary research cost is high enough to affect early play while having less of an impact in the mid and late game (take resources/time that could be used towards another stalker) | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FTJTKdQ.png) When it's 5th PvP final in the last 11 finals within 4 months period, even $100,000 winner-takes-all final by 2 amazing players has a risk of being remembered as "another PvP final when Protoss was OP" in the future. This era deserves its own name. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
i think there's a problem in the game, but i don't think the answer is nerfs. i think the answer is giving zerg and terran more tools and more functionality they can explore and exploit just like how protoss got new toys the problem is that blizz gave toss mobility tools (oracle, msc, warp prism speed buff, etc) hoping it would offset their defensive style and encourage new more dynamic styles like what SOS showed at blizzcon. but instead of making protoss more aggressive and less defensive, it just made them equally defensive with more ability TO be safely aggressive/cheesy/sneaky bad design or no, protoss players EARNED their OP era by figuring out how to optimally use their tools. give more tools to all races! more skill ceiling! that's why i'm in favor of things like the roach burrow buff, because why not? throw little things like that at the wall and see if they stick. if they don't change the meta, at least it's still a little better, more skill rewarding and more likely to be used. if it adds something to the game, great. in theory i think blizz's idea of "small, safe changes to avoid wrecking the meta" is good, but if you're going to use small changes, why not try more of them and more often? put the prerogative on the players to take a small patch and make new builds and new styles out of it | ||
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Sabu113
United States11096 Posts
On March 16 2014 12:22 Orek wrote: When it's 5th PvP final in the last 11 finals within 4 months period, even $100,000 winner-takes-all final by 2 amazing players has a risk of being remembered as "another PvP final when Protoss was OP" in the future. This era deserves its own name. What's funny is that your post makes it look much better than chicken little says. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On March 16 2014 12:22 Orek wrote: When it's 5th PvP final in the last 11 finals within 4 months period, even $100,000 winner-takes-all final by 2 amazing players has a risk of being remembered as "another PvP final when Protoss was OP" in the future. This era deserves its own name. Legend of the Spring. It's kinda like Legend of the Fall except it's in spring. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On March 16 2014 12:40 Waise wrote: protoss became powerful because pro protoss players started learning the depth and strength of units like the msc, oracle, etc and explored the huge range of options their tech gives them i think there's a problem in the game, but i don't think the answer is nerfs. i think the answer is giving zerg and terran more tools and more functionality they can explore and exploit just like how protoss got new toys the problem is that blizz gave toss mobility tools (oracle, msc, warp prism speed buff, etc) hoping it would offset their defensive style and encourage new more dynamic styles like what SOS showed at blizzcon. but instead of making protoss more aggressive and less defensive, it just made them equally defensive with more ability TO be safely aggressive/cheesy/sneaky bad design or no, protoss players EARNED their OP era by figuring out how to optimally use their tools. give more tools to all races! more skill ceiling! that's why i'm in favor of things like the roach burrow buff, because why not? throw little things like that at the wall and see if they stick. if they don't change the meta, at least it's still a little better, more skill rewarding and more likely to be used. if it adds something to the game, great. in theory i think blizz's idea of "small, safe changes to avoid wrecking the meta" is good, but if you're going to use small changes, why not try more of them and more often? put the prerogative on the players to take a small patch and make new builds and new styles out of it Well, Terrans were OP at the beginning of HoTS but then Blizzard nerfed hellbats... | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On March 16 2014 12:40 Waise wrote: protoss became powerful because pro protoss players started learning the depth and strength of units like the msc, oracle, etc and explored the huge range of options their tech gives them i think there's a problem in the game, but i don't think the answer is nerfs. i think the answer is giving zerg and terran more tools and more functionality they can explore and exploit just like how protoss got new toys the problem is that blizz gave toss mobility tools (oracle, msc, warp prism speed buff, etc) hoping it would offset their defensive style and encourage new more dynamic styles like what SOS showed at blizzcon. but instead of making protoss more aggressive and less defensive, it just made them equally defensive with more ability TO be safely aggressive/cheesy/sneaky bad design or no, protoss players EARNED their OP era by figuring out how to optimally use their tools. give more tools to all races! more skill ceiling! that's why i'm in favor of things like the roach burrow buff, because why not? throw little things like that at the wall and see if they stick. if they don't change the meta, at least it's still a little better, more skill rewarding and more likely to be used. if it adds something to the game, great. in theory i think blizz's idea of "small, safe changes to avoid wrecking the meta" is good, but if you're going to use small changes, why not try more of them and more often? put the prerogative on the players to take a small patch and make new builds and new styles out of it I mean, did they really earn it when they got buff after buff after buff? The oracle buff was absolutely not necessary, but made so that you wouldn't be able to lose an oracle. The WP speed buff just didn't make sense either, what was wrong with the old prisms? Were they really that unusable? Cause it absolutely doesn't seem like it. I like your approach of giving more and more tools to different races, and I think that's really important to keep the game and meta fresh, especially since I don't think we're ever going to see a massive design overhaul, but saying that Protoss earned their OP era after Blizzard basically handed it to them on a silver platter seems like it's too much. Everything else I agree with though. And I think the WM buff and the MSC sight range is a good change. I just wish that these were made faster, and a more transparent process. It was obvious that this was coming with how powerful the MSC was. It's absolutely ridiculous that Protoss has RIGHT NOW, at the very least, 2 builds (blink stalker, oracle) that can outright kill any Terran that's caught unprepared, and they're only "pressure" builds, except they have super good econ as well. It seems silly to me that Protoss is the cheesy as hell race, that if you're caught with your pants down at any time, you're going to take massive losses. What other race does that? Even if any other race is caught without detection against WM's, you can still get around it by moving it everytime the charge resets. You see Protoss players do that all the time. What's the "counter" to a DT running in your base if you dont' have scans or turrets? There is none. It's stuff like that which makes the community really rage out at Protoss. And it's sad, cause IMO - Polt (and I'm a huge Polt fan), was not better than herO. And I'm not too sure that Taeja is actually better than sOs. This might actually be the proper two people who are going to the finals, after a really kickass tournament. Yet all of this is clouded by the fact that blink, and Protoss aggression is just so strong, that people will still wonder if this was just cause of the fact that Protoss was OP, or were these two players legitimately good. There should be actual consequences for doing a certain type of build, it shouldn't be able to counter everything, be able to kill your opponent, and be able to transition into a late game, all in one. I think all this hate would go away as well if Protoss were given mechanics that made it look like it wasn't just 1 big blob of A move too. No one likes facing an 80 APM Protoss, just to lose to a giant deathball of A move. It's not fun to play, nor is it fun to watch. (If you're wondering what a pro version of this was, Dear vs Polt on Frost I think is a good example. 6 colossi w/ no range, and he basically a moved + stalker microed into Polt) | ||
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Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
Protoss was already overpowered, then it got 2 huge buffs to their harass units: oracles and warp prism. Now the race is totally out of control, they are the strongest in every area of the game... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 16 2014 12:22 Orek wrote: + Show Spoiler + When it's 5th PvP final in the last 11 finals within 4 months period, even $100,000 winner-takes-all final by 2 amazing players has a risk of being remembered as "another PvP final when Protoss was OP" in the future. This era deserves its own name. Heart of the Storm. | ||
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sc2holar
Sweden1637 Posts
On March 16 2014 13:59 Snake.69 wrote: Protoss got overbuffed because overall protoss players were not doing good at the pro level. Now we have many many protoss players able to place very high in tournaments. Protoss was already overpowered, then it got 2 huge buffs to their harass units: oracles and warp prism. Now the race is totally out of control, they are the strongest in every area of the game... Zerg bests protoss in terms of rapid mass production of units and quick tech switches. | ||
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Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
On March 16 2014 19:19 sc2holar wrote: Zerg bests protoss in terms of rapid mass production of units and quick tech switches. If protoss plays right, you wont get the bank to remax on a tech switch lol ( Unless you go swarm host turtle and are really good at it..) | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
On March 16 2014 12:22 Orek wrote: + Show Spoiler + When it's 5th PvP final in the last 11 finals within 4 months period, even $100,000 winner-takes-all final by 2 amazing players has a risk of being remembered as "another PvP final when Protoss was OP" in the future. This era deserves its own name. I believe it's called "Power of Protoss" Edit: Added spoiler tag | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On March 16 2014 12:40 Waise wrote: This might actually be the proper two people who are going to the finals, after a really kickass tournament. Yet all of this is clouded by the fact that blink, and Protoss aggression is just so strong, that people will still wonder if this was just cause of the fact that Protoss was OP, or were these two players legitimately good. this is how I feel about that | ||
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
This. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On March 16 2014 13:14 vthree wrote: Well, Terrans were OP at the beginning of HoTS but then Blizzard nerfed hellbats... No that's now how you interpret the statistics. What's most likely happened was that there was an adjustment proces where at lot "patch"-zergs had to get demoted into the league where they deserverd to be and a lot of terrans were going advance in leagues. What happens in that proces is that terran win/rates > 50. Zerg win rates <50. So the only thing you can take away from early HOTS w/r is that HOTS buffed terran relative to WOL. You can'y say anytihng about absolute balance (only a change in balance). | ||
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Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
While protoss took a while to understand just how strong their new mothership core is, and what it allows them to get away with. Zergs had to get used to play without strong infestors, and they cant blindly aim for a blord infestor composition anymore. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On March 16 2014 19:42 Hider wrote: No that's now how you interpret the statistics. What's most likely happened was that there was an adjustment proces where at lot "patch"-zergs had to get demoted into the league where they deserverd to be and a lot of terrans were going advance in leagues. What happens in that proces is that terran win/rates > 50. Zerg win rates <50. So the only thing you can take away from early HOTS w/r is that HOTS buffed terran relative to WOL. You can'y say anytihng about absolute balance (only a change in balance). Who said anything about statistics? Just look at the gameplay (especially TvT), hellbat drops were the dominate strategy and games just became who did more hellbat drops. | ||
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