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On March 13 2014 04:34 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin) You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though. I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded. The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly). This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic.
Dude its useless trying to argue with dino, hes just an ignorant Toss fanboy who will disagree with everything you say and have an excuse for everything. I read his 5 stalker thing and actually laughed out loud, then read who wrote it and just groaned. Its better to just ignore him.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 13 2014 14:34 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 04:34 BurningRanger wrote:On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin) You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though. I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded. The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly). This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic. Dude its useless trying to argue with dino, hes just an ignorant Toss fanboy who will disagree with everything you say and have an excuse for everything. I read his 5 stalker thing and actually laughed out loud, then read who wrote it and just groaned. Its better to just ignore him.
Please attack the argument and not the person making it, argumentum ad hominem is obnoxious. Let's try to be civilized, shall we?
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On March 13 2014 14:42 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 14:34 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 04:34 BurningRanger wrote:On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin) You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though. I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded. The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly). This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic. Dude its useless trying to argue with dino, hes just an ignorant Toss fanboy who will disagree with everything you say and have an excuse for everything. I read his 5 stalker thing and actually laughed out loud, then read who wrote it and just groaned. Its better to just ignore him. Please attack the argument and not the person making it, argumentum ad hominem is obnoxious. Let's try to be civilized, shall we?
Survivor actually has a really good point in this case, ad hominenem arguments can be legitimate when the criticism is directly related to the subject at hand, and DinoMight has a history of extremely strong Protoss bias. There's very little point in arguing with someone who isn't willing to change their mind.
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On March 13 2014 15:18 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 14:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2014 14:34 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 04:34 BurningRanger wrote:On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin) You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though. I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded. The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly). This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic. Dude its useless trying to argue with dino, hes just an ignorant Toss fanboy who will disagree with everything you say and have an excuse for everything. I read his 5 stalker thing and actually laughed out loud, then read who wrote it and just groaned. Its better to just ignore him. Please attack the argument and not the person making it, argumentum ad hominem is obnoxious. Let's try to be civilized, shall we? Survivor actually has a really good point in this case, ad hominenem arguments can be legitimate when the criticism is directly related to the subject at hand, and DinoMight has a history of extremely strong Protoss bias. There's very little point in arguing with someone who isn't willing to change their mind.
Ad hominem is subject to warning in TL, so let's stay away from it no matter how retarded you think the person you are attacking is. Not that I agree with DinoMight or anyone here, but a X-race fanboy CAN bring up a good point. So let's talk about his ideas, not his identity.
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On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 18:06 IMPrime wrote:
MSC is really the problem to more or less everything. More specifically it's photon overcharge. (Time warps are also stupid but at least there's some semblance of skill in knowing when and where to throw down the time warp. Photon overcharge is so easy a caveman could do it).
pvt Blink all-ins are strong, but if it fails, tosses have photon overcharge to defend from counterattacks until they get splash damage done. They're still in an uphill battle but the terran is just one bad engagement away from losing the game. Without photon overcharge, the toss would just die if the all-in doesn't work, just like what should happen when zerg or terran all-ins don't work. But Protoss is the least-punished race when it comes to failed all-ins. I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack. Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus. If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything. I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish. TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs.
Yes, that is a better way to put it.
Still the MSC is the real problem. Blink existed in WoL and blink all-ins/pressures were never this flexible. But the MSC comes extremely early and gives vision up ledges. In WoL you'd need an observer or sentry making hallucination, the former which cost significantly more money and made the attack come later (Robo + observer vs just MSC) and the latter which needed energy and then it would be basically impossible to forcefield (whereas MSC can give vision + time warp), plus hallucinations don't last forever so you would need several sentries, cutting the gas needed to make stalkers.
And if the toss fakes the blink all-in, yes, PO gives the toss enough defenses and time to get splash out. Without PO it would be much harder even if the toss just faked the blink all-in, and the toss would need sentries, which would delay their splash damage anyway (since HTs are so gas heavy and colossi would take forever to get out after going straight to blink).
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Let me remind everyone this is a discussion forum. Everyone's entitled to say what they think, and you can decide whether or not you want to listen to them based on the argument they make and the evidence they provide. If you don't like what I have to say then you're entitled to think I'm wrong. But calling me an ignorant Toss fanboy doesn't make your points more valid or mine less so.
Everyone is biased towards their race. Yesterday in his GSL Code S interview Rain said the game was imbalanced favoring Terrans (!!!!!). Taeja has balance whined consistently, even as he won 5 tournaments last year. And these guys have way more game knowledge than anyone here.
I play a good amount of Terran and Zerg to try and see what the strengths and weaknesses of these races are and improve my game knowledge. The goal is to know more about the game and be less biased, which should help me improve at SC2. But of course, my main race is Protoss and therefore it's understandable if I'm a bit biased towards it. Just like everyone else is biased towards their race.
As it pertains to Blink allins.. I think over the last few days we've seen what can happen to Protoss players who skip the Robotics. With the MsC nerf it's harder to see how prepared the Terran is and with the widow mine buff the defense and counterattack potential is stronger. I'm withholding all further comments on the subject until this patch sinks in a bit more and people figure out how to play the game.
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On March 13 2014 15:55 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 15:18 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 13 2014 14:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2014 14:34 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 04:34 BurningRanger wrote:On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin) You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though. I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded. The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly). This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic. Dude its useless trying to argue with dino, hes just an ignorant Toss fanboy who will disagree with everything you say and have an excuse for everything. I read his 5 stalker thing and actually laughed out loud, then read who wrote it and just groaned. Its better to just ignore him. Please attack the argument and not the person making it, argumentum ad hominem is obnoxious. Let's try to be civilized, shall we? Survivor actually has a really good point in this case, ad hominenem arguments can be legitimate when the criticism is directly related to the subject at hand, and DinoMight has a history of extremely strong Protoss bias. There's very little point in arguing with someone who isn't willing to change their mind. Ad hominem is subject to warning in TL, so let's stay away from it no matter how retarded you think the person you are attacking is. Not that I agree with DinoMight or anyone here, but a X-race fanboy CAN bring up a good point. So let's talk about his ideas, not his identity.
I didn't say DinoMight was retarded at all, stop putting words into my mouth, and of course he can bring up a good point, I think he has this time and many times in the past. But it can be really useless to argue with him too, because he typically wont change his mind on subjects like this and always simplifies Terran reactions / complicates Protoss reactions to things to illustrate his points. There's a lot more to whether or not a Protoss player can transition out of a Blink All-in than how many Stalkers they made, such as if Protoss delays stim / medivacs, how many SCVs / army Protoss kills, how many bunkers Terran makes, how much mining Protoss denies, how long Protoss keeps Terran on 1 base, if Protoss went expand before gates or not, if the Twilight was proxied, how many gates were made, how long Terran delayed tech in favor of units / bunkers, if the Reaper is still alive (or was even made), if Terran opened 1/1/1 or 2-3 rax, how defensible drops / the natural ramp are, how many stalkers Protoss lost, how fast Protoss starts making tech buildings behind their attack ect. All of these can make huge changes in the ability of Protoss to transition out.
I actually think Blink openings in TvP are one of the most interesting aspects of the matchup and enjoy playing vs them / watching them and don't think they're imbalanced, if anything I think that there should be more aggressive builds like Blink where the players can transition out of it in the right conditions. I think that to say all Terran needs to do is see how many Stalkers the Protoss player commits too is pretty silly.
On March 13 2014 23:32 DinoMight wrote:
Let me remind everyone this is a discussion forum. Everyone's entitled to say what they think, and you can decide whether or not you want to listen to them based on the argument they make and the evidence they provide. If you don't like what I have to say then you're entitled to think I'm wrong. But calling me an ignorant Toss fanboy doesn't make your points more valid or mine less so.
Everyone is biased towards their race. Yesterday in his GSL Code S interview Rain said the game was imbalanced favoring Terrans (!!!!!). Taeja has balance whined consistently, even as he won 5 tournaments last year. And these guys have way more game knowledge than anyone here.
I play a good amount of Terran and Zerg to try and see what the strengths and weaknesses of these races are and improve my game knowledge. The goal is to know more about the game and be less biased, which should help me improve at SC2. But of course, my main race is Protoss and therefore it's understandable if I'm a bit biased towards it. Just like everyone else is biased towards their race.
As it pertains to Blink allins.. I think over the last few days we've seen what can happen to Protoss players who skip the Robotics. With the MsC nerf it's harder to see how prepared the Terran is and with the widow mine buff the defense and counterattack potential is stronger. I'm withholding all further comments on the subject until this patch sinks in a bit more and people figure out how to play the game.
For what it's worth, I'm sorry for saying what I did, I didn't mean to offend and in retrospect there's no way it could not be taken offensively. It probably would have been better if I just stayed silent in this case. I think you're right that Blink openings aren't OP, if that's the point you're arguing, and I definitely agree that Protoss has a harder time getting the information they need now. I don't think the new Widow Mines will have as big of an impact as you think in the long term simply because of the production issues Terran encounters in obtaining them.
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On March 13 2014 15:18 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 14:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2014 14:34 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 04:34 BurningRanger wrote:On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin) You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though. I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded. The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly). This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic. Dude its useless trying to argue with dino, hes just an ignorant Toss fanboy who will disagree with everything you say and have an excuse for everything. I read his 5 stalker thing and actually laughed out loud, then read who wrote it and just groaned. Its better to just ignore him. Please attack the argument and not the person making it, argumentum ad hominem is obnoxious. Let's try to be civilized, shall we? Survivor actually has a really good point in this case, ad hominenem arguments can be legitimate when the criticism is directly related to the subject at hand, and DinoMight has a history of extremely strong Protoss bias. There's very little point in arguing with someone who isn't willing to change their mind.
The notion that someone is unbiased in Starcraft 2 is really amusing.
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
Plenty of people are, relatively speaking its not beyond everyone
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On March 14 2014 00:48 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 15:55 Orek wrote:On March 13 2014 15:18 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 13 2014 14:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2014 14:34 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 04:34 BurningRanger wrote:On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin) You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though. I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded. The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly). This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic. Dude its useless trying to argue with dino, hes just an ignorant Toss fanboy who will disagree with everything you say and have an excuse for everything. I read his 5 stalker thing and actually laughed out loud, then read who wrote it and just groaned. Its better to just ignore him. Please attack the argument and not the person making it, argumentum ad hominem is obnoxious. Let's try to be civilized, shall we? Survivor actually has a really good point in this case, ad hominenem arguments can be legitimate when the criticism is directly related to the subject at hand, and DinoMight has a history of extremely strong Protoss bias. There's very little point in arguing with someone who isn't willing to change their mind. Ad hominem is subject to warning in TL, so let's stay away from it no matter how retarded you think the person you are attacking is. Not that I agree with DinoMight or anyone here, but a X-race fanboy CAN bring up a good point. So let's talk about his ideas, not his identity. I didn't say DinoMight was retarded at all, stop putting words into my mouth, and of course he can bring up a good point, I think he has this time and many times in the past. But it can be really useless to argue with him too, because he typically wont change his mind on subjects like this and always simplifies Terran reactions / complicates Protoss reactions to things to illustrate his points. There's a lot more to whether or not a Protoss player can transition out of a Blink All-in than how many Stalkers they made, such as if Protoss delays stim / medivacs, how many SCVs / army Protoss kills, how many bunkers Terran makes, how much mining Protoss denies, how long Protoss keeps Terran on 1 base, if Protoss went expand before gates or not, if the Twilight was proxied, how many gates were made, how long Terran delayed tech in favor of units / bunkers, if the Reaper is still alive (or was even made), if Terran opened 1/1/1 or 2-3 rax, how defensible drops / the natural ramp are, how many stalkers Protoss lost, how fast Protoss starts making tech buildings behind their attack ect. All of these can make huge changes in the ability of Protoss to transition out. I actually think Blink openings in TvP are one of the most interesting aspects of the matchup and enjoy playing vs them / watching them and don't think they're imbalanced, if anything I think that there should be more aggressive builds like Blink where the players can transition out of it in the right conditions. I think that to say all Terran needs to do is see how many Stalkers the Protoss player commits too is pretty silly. Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 23:32 DinoMight wrote:
Let me remind everyone this is a discussion forum. Everyone's entitled to say what they think, and you can decide whether or not you want to listen to them based on the argument they make and the evidence they provide. If you don't like what I have to say then you're entitled to think I'm wrong. But calling me an ignorant Toss fanboy doesn't make your points more valid or mine less so.
Everyone is biased towards their race. Yesterday in his GSL Code S interview Rain said the game was imbalanced favoring Terrans (!!!!!). Taeja has balance whined consistently, even as he won 5 tournaments last year. And these guys have way more game knowledge than anyone here.
I play a good amount of Terran and Zerg to try and see what the strengths and weaknesses of these races are and improve my game knowledge. The goal is to know more about the game and be less biased, which should help me improve at SC2. But of course, my main race is Protoss and therefore it's understandable if I'm a bit biased towards it. Just like everyone else is biased towards their race.
As it pertains to Blink allins.. I think over the last few days we've seen what can happen to Protoss players who skip the Robotics. With the MsC nerf it's harder to see how prepared the Terran is and with the widow mine buff the defense and counterattack potential is stronger. I'm withholding all further comments on the subject until this patch sinks in a bit more and people figure out how to play the game. For what it's worth, I'm sorry for saying what I did, I didn't mean to offend and in retrospect there's no way it could not be taken offensively. It probably would have been better if I just stayed silent in this case. I think you're right that Blink openings aren't OP, if that's the point you're arguing, and I definitely agree that Protoss has a harder time getting the information they need now. I don't think the new Widow Mines will have as big of an impact as you think in the long term simply because of the production issues Terran encounters in obtaining them.
No worries man, it's all good. People can get pretty heated debating SC2 but it's because we all are very passionate about the game!
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On March 14 2014 00:57 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 15:18 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 13 2014 14:42 Whitewing wrote:On March 13 2014 14:34 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 04:34 BurningRanger wrote:On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin) You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though. I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded. The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly). This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic. Dude its useless trying to argue with dino, hes just an ignorant Toss fanboy who will disagree with everything you say and have an excuse for everything. I read his 5 stalker thing and actually laughed out loud, then read who wrote it and just groaned. Its better to just ignore him. Please attack the argument and not the person making it, argumentum ad hominem is obnoxious. Let's try to be civilized, shall we? Survivor actually has a really good point in this case, ad hominenem arguments can be legitimate when the criticism is directly related to the subject at hand, and DinoMight has a history of extremely strong Protoss bias. There's very little point in arguing with someone who isn't willing to change their mind. The notion that someone is unbiased in Starcraft 2 is really amusing.
Everyone is biased to a certain degree, but when it gets to the point where the person isn't even attempting to understand the reality of the situation and is just blindly arguing for their race no matter what it only hurts the discussion. For example, saying all Terran has to do is check to see if Toss has 5 or more stalkers is so obviously wrong on so many levels, yet he seems to think that its perfectly fine to expect Terran to be able to see 5 stalkers and know exactly what it means. Everyone may be entitled to an opinion, but not everyone's opinion is entitled to respect.
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the timing attacks / all ins are really hard to balance.
I blame the macro mechanics (mules, inject .. ) and the warp gate tech.
IMO those mechanics must be nerfed to be allowed only in T2
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Regardless of balance, I don't think that these semis were fun to watch. The last 3 games in a row were blink "all ins" (let's not debate the semantics of using the word all ins here, please; they were aggressive attacks at the very least). Just not fun to watch and completely killed the mood for me.
I think that something should be done to make it at least less prevalent. If Protoss players are really using this as a go-to build then there must be something wrong with it.
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On March 16 2014 07:12 xuanzue wrote:
the timing attacks / all ins are really hard to balance.
I blame the macro mechanics (mules, inject .. ) and the warp gate tech.
IMO those mechanics must be nerfed to be allowed only in T2
Actually, making warpgate research take another minute or so would pretty much fix the timing attack. Blink pressure doesn't work well against stimmed bio (in bunkers) with a few medivacs flying overhead.
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On March 16 2014 07:14 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Regardless of balance, I don't think that these semis were fun to watch. The last 3 games in a row were blink "all ins" (let's not debate the semantics of using the word all ins here, please; they were aggressive attacks at the very least). Just not fun to watch and completely killed the mood for me.
I think that something should be done to make it at least less prevalent. If Protoss players are really using this as a go-to build then there must be something wrong with it.
Yeah it was horrible. I just quit watching when I saw the twilight council come down and came back and saw that TaeJa had already lost the game. I used to get glued to the screen when I watched TaeJa play in the past and now I can´t even get myself to watch because it ends up being something so unexciting.
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On March 16 2014 07:22 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:12 xuanzue wrote:
the timing attacks / all ins are really hard to balance.
I blame the macro mechanics (mules, inject .. ) and the warp gate tech.
IMO those mechanics must be nerfed to be allowed only in T2 Actually, making warpgate research take another minute or so would pretty much fix the timing attack. Blink pressure doesn't work well against stimmed bio (in bunkers) with a few medivacs flying overhead.
Yes, but that would have a "Queen patch effect" in PvZ.
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On March 16 2014 07:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 07:22 maartendq wrote:On March 16 2014 07:12 xuanzue wrote:
the timing attacks / all ins are really hard to balance.
I blame the macro mechanics (mules, inject .. ) and the warp gate tech.
IMO those mechanics must be nerfed to be allowed only in T2 Actually, making warpgate research take another minute or so would pretty much fix the timing attack. Blink pressure doesn't work well against stimmed bio (in bunkers) with a few medivacs flying overhead. Yes, but that would have a "Queen patch effect" in PvZ.
To be honest, I'm sure Protoss still has a lot of other tricks up their sleeve. The main thing people seem to dislike (if not downright hate) about Protoss is sheer amount of things they can safely get away with.
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The main issue is the fragility of the balance, because every attack is either stupidly strong or barely viable. It's so difficult to get the balance right. It seems like there are snowball effects in the game where if you get slightly ahead or behind it can decide the game. I guess you can blame the macro mechanics, but I don't know.
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Mothership core is the problem. Blink all ins were never a problem in PvT WoL. The MSC has turned early game PvT into a matchup where the Terran is as at the mercy of a million different thing Protoss can do. The Protoss can do all these different builds because the MSC makes Protoss safe against almost any Terran aggression.
MSC is a disaster, it should be deleted.
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Can anyone explain the anger to me? I thought we had a tournament with some excellent games, some decent ones and an unfortunate series with repeated bad games. Still good on average. But Reddit is on full meltdown again.
(edit: I guess I'm just not too invested in the results, so maybe it would be different if I cared super much)
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EPT
