EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 914
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
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Gamlet
Ukraine336 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12418 Posts
On February 26 2014 02:11 Chaggi wrote: When was that super low PvT period? 1/1/1? Must have been around the time when Rain was the only protoss to win a PvT in the whole Ro32 of OSL. | ||
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sva
United States748 Posts
I mine thing will be nice, but it's simply not enough. Even watching pro players in tvp is not fun atm. The amount of multi tasking that T has to do to not die from zealots is so ridiculous. I really don't like how Terran has developed in this game. | ||
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
I feel like zergs lose a few too many games to timings and allins that went unscouted, but you can't even blame the zerg for not having scouted the opponents build. Because the slow overlord is a sh***y scout, can be easliy sniped, and losing one or even more of them in the early game can cost you the game even if you're lucky enough to get the essential scouting information. You lose 100 MINS, it SUPPLY blocks you and takes up LARVA. So why not give the upgrade-less overlord a speed boost (= upgraded speed) for just a few seconds, so you can get at least a good chance for one decent scout before it dies, with an insanely long cooldown rate (let's say 4 minutes), so you can really only use it once in a while? This wouldn't touch the units balance, it would only improves the zergs ability to react to the opponents build (and isn't it supposed to be the "reactionary race"???). | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 10 2014 21:42 inken wrote: I'm one of those whining zergs, but I don't think bizzard should nerf toss or terran or should've buffed the hydra. I think there's only one weakness about zerg that should be fixed and that's early game scouting. I feel like zergs lose a few too many games to timings and allins that went unscouted, but you can't even blame the zerg for not having scouted the opponents build. Because the slow overlord is a sh***y scout, can be easliy sniped, and losing one or even more of them in the early game can cost you the game even if you're lucky enough to get the essential scouting information. You lose 100 MINS, it SUPPLY blocks you and takes up LARVA. So why not give the upgrade-less overlord a speed boost (= upgraded speed) for just a few seconds, so you can get at least a good chance for one decent scout before it dies, with an insanely long cooldown rate (let's say 4 minutes), so you can really only use it once in a while? This wouldn't touch the units balance, it would only improves the zergs ability to react to the opponents build (and isn't it supposed to be the "reactionary race"???). na, really not needed. There are some dicey situations with scouting in all matchups, but all races have them and all races could invest something extra in being safer (OL speed in the case of zerg). The only matchup that is more of a problem in that regard for Zerg is ZvZ very early. But you'd have to be able to see whether the first or second inject goes into drones or zerglings for that, even scouting the lings is usually too late because your injects finish at the same time and you queue units at the same time. So the problem there isn't even the scouting, just how injects work and how standard walling is not that good of an option. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On March 10 2014 21:42 inken wrote: I'm one of those whining zergs, but I don't think bizzard should nerf toss or terran or should've buffed the hydra. I think there's only one weakness about zerg that should be fixed and that's early game scouting. I feel like zergs lose a few too many games to timings and allins that went unscouted, but you can't even blame the zerg for not having scouted the opponents build. Because the slow overlord is a sh***y scout, can be easliy sniped, and losing one or even more of them in the early game can cost you the game even if you're lucky enough to get the essential scouting information. You lose 100 MINS, it SUPPLY blocks you and takes up LARVA. So why not give the upgrade-less overlord a speed boost (= upgraded speed) for just a few seconds, so you can get at least a good chance for one decent scout before it dies, with an insanely long cooldown rate (let's say 4 minutes), so you can really only use it once in a while? This wouldn't touch the units balance, it would only improves the zergs ability to react to the opponents build (and isn't it supposed to be the "reactionary race"???). That is the problem. Zergs are the 'best' race at reacting due to their larvae and production mechanics. So if they can easily get full scouting and know how many drones to make, they have a huge advantage (the only all-in they can't hold even if scouted is probably the immortal sentry). The only thing that is slowing down the Zerg Eco is the threat of all ins and pushes. With Zergs having map control in all match ups once speed lings are out. It is very rare to see pro Zergs lose their OLs unless they go into bases to scout. And that is the cost of scouting like a scan, reaper. Funny enough, the biggest threat for OLs getting sniped is now in ZvZ with the Catz spore crawler rush. | ||
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ElBlanco
Australia140 Posts
Of course this would have an impact on TvZ but i don't think it would be a negative one. If terran became too powerful i think you could tinker with TvZ somewhat. I don't like the overcharge idea like in starbow, it's too similar to chronoboost for my liking. This would be unique to terran and is specifically tailored towards the late game. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 10 2014 22:55 ElBlanco wrote: I think for PvT it's mainly the late game that needs changing. One thing i would like is for terran to be able to keep building units when they're at max supply. If a unit is queued up it would still build but will only pop out when supply is available. That way after an engagement you could reinforce much, much faster (having 20-30 or more supply pop out instantly similar to protoss). It also shouldn't have too much impact on early game which is important imo. Of course this would have an impact on TvZ but i don't think it would be a negative one. If terran became too powerful i think you could tinker with TvZ somewhat. I don't like the overcharge idea like in starbow, it's too similar to chronoboost for my liking. This would be unique to terran and is specifically tailored towards the late game. I actually think this could be game breaking in TvZ. Once the Terran gets a good parade push going it's not easy to stop as Zerg. Last thing that MU needs is faster T reinforcements :/ Also, one of the weaknesses of mech is that it's hard to replenish so you need to protect your units well. If a whole pre-produced mech army is waiting to pop out as soon as your current one dies, it might be too strong. Hard to suggest something that would only impact late game PvT. I think it might be smart to wait until the balance patch sinks in though... I think part of the reason Terran is screwed in late game PvT is because of how the early game plays out. They can overdefend and come out behind in econ. If T goes into late game on even economic footing / ahead in economy, I think it has all the tools it needs to beat Protoss. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 10 2014 22:13 vthree wrote: That is the problem. Zergs are the 'best' race at reacting due to their larvae and production mechanics. So if they can easily get full scouting and know how many drones to make, they have a huge advantage (the only all-in they can't hold even if scouted is probably the immortal sentry). The only thing that is slowing down the Zerg Eco is the threat of all ins and pushes. With Zergs having map control in all match ups once speed lings are out. It is very rare to see pro Zergs lose their OLs unless they go into bases to scout. And that is the cost of scouting like a scan, reaper. Funny enough, the biggest threat for OLs getting sniped is now in ZvZ with the Catz spore crawler rush. no way. the spore rush is good on like one map, on all others you dont go to the main anyways because there could be a queen once you reach it. and you counter it by sending your OL to the natural like on all other maps. | ||
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ElBlanco
Australia140 Posts
On March 10 2014 23:05 DinoMight wrote: I actually think this could be game breaking in TvZ. Once the Terran gets a good parade push going it's not easy to stop as Zerg. Last thing that MU needs is faster T reinforcements :/ Also, one of the weaknesses of mech is that it's hard to replenish so you need to protect your units well. If a whole pre-produced mech army is waiting to pop out as soon as your current one dies, it might be too strong. Hard to suggest something that would only impact late game PvT. I think it might be smart to wait until the balance patch sinks in though... I think part of the reason Terran is screwed in late game PvT is because of how the early game plays out. They can overdefend and come out behind in econ. If T goes into late game on even economic footing / ahead in economy, I think it has all the tools it needs to beat Protoss. I don't disagree with out there and i agree that the early to mid game plays a big role in how the late game plays out. I'm just throwing out suggestions. Personally i hope we see more effort into making factory units more viable in PvT. It's awesome seeing factory units mixed in when watching PvT (and fun to use as well). I also still think ghosts need to get a buff and you can do it without impacting TvZ too much (like an EMP radius increase). They're really fun units that we don't see enough. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 10 2014 23:20 ElBlanco wrote: I don't disagree with out there and i agree that the early to mid game plays a big role in how the late game plays out. I'm just throwing out suggestions. Personally i hope we see more effort into making factory units more viable in PvT. It's awesome seeing factory units mixed in when watching PvT (and fun to use as well). I also still think ghosts need to get a buff and you can do it without impacting TvZ too much (like an EMP radius increase). They're really fun units that we don't see enough. It's certainly match-specific, but I do enjoy watching Terrans go Hellbats with their bio in PvT. If you can identify a Templar opening early enough it's a really strong strategy. I've seen Bomber and ForGG do it a few times. I'm no pro, but I've won some games on the ladder with it as well. Blue flame is a little slow to get out, but I think with some well planned building swapping you could work it in. It doesn't take too long to research and as soon as it's done you can swap back to reactor your Hellbats. If I were going to buff ghosts I don't think it would be an EMP radius increase. Ghosts are pretty core in the matchup IMO. Although Maru and Polt use them way less than anyone else and they seem to be the most successful T at the moment... But maybe reworking snipe could make them more interesting in other matchups too. Sniping banelings in TvZ, etc. | ||
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VieuxSinge
France231 Posts
Actually, lategame TvP isn't as imbalanced as what people say. We've seen Taeja or even Happy having a great lategame against the deathball through great ghost control. The problem with TvP is ( was?) the high number of game ending openings/cheese/all-in and the capacity to tech hard and still be safe thanks to MScore. With the new WM, this might be over now (except blink all-in, this shit still needs nerfing) | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 10 2014 23:32 VieuxSinge wrote: For the first time ever, I agree with DinoMight, terran having units pre-built at 200 pop would be too much of a buff both in TvP and TvZ. Actually, lategame TvP isn't as imbalanced as what people say. We've seen Taeja or even Happy having a great lategame against the deathball through great ghost control. The problem with TvP is ( was?) the high number of game ending openings/cheese/all-in and the capacity to tech hard and still be safe thanks to MScore. With the new WM, this might be over now (except blink all-in, this shit still needs nerfing)  See I can be reasonable sometimes.I think Blink all-in is strong but at this point I can't think of anything else to nerf it that wouldn't impact another part of the game. MsC is 9 sight range, Blink already takes 170 seconds to research.. Time Warp nerfed up to 100 energy.. Maybe they can just reduce the number of maps it's viable on? I think part of the problem is that all of the Protoss cheeses are viable on all of the maps (except Habitation). So T has to prepare for everything. I remember in WoL PvP you had a similar issue. Basically zero scouting (no MsC, no free Hallu) and you had to figure out what your opponent was going to do. But because the maps somewhat limited which allins were viable you could somewhat process of elimination your way through it. On Daybreak, Phoenixes were a good opening, since Blink wasn't viable. On Cloud Kingdom, Blink was great so Robo openings were good if you wanted to be safe and expand/turtle. If every opening is viable on every map, then there is only 1 safe build Terran can do, and nobody wants that. So maybe if they made the maps less good for Blink, the strongest most problematic allin that Protoss has, it would be easier for Terran to know what to scout for. Basically without Blink you have Oracle/DT (countered by Turret) and Gateway/Robo/Stargate busts that hit before Protoss has AoE (countered by turtling to medivacs and stim). Two things that are fairly straightforward to react to when scouted. I think it might be more fair. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
pvt Blink all-ins are strong, but if it fails, tosses have photon overcharge to defend from counterattacks until they get splash damage done. They're still in an uphill battle but the terran is just one bad engagement away from losing the game. Without photon overcharge, the toss would just die if the all-in doesn't work, just like what should happen when zerg or terran all-ins don't work. But Protoss is the least-punished race when it comes to failed all-ins. | ||
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xxxKagexxx
France43 Posts
I really think game is balance, even if i whine often. | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:12 Jerom wrote: I must say I really like the latest patch. Terrans seem to be doing much better now. Maybe PvT lategame might still be a problem though.. I feel like the answer to that is buffing the hellbat in some way, but I can't think of a way that won't bring us back to hellbat drops all over again. I can; expensive/lategame upgrade. | ||
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