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On February 18 2014 18:08 JamesDoe wrote:
Is there a reason Terrans uses no cloacked Banshees against Protosses?
Even if the Protoss start with a stargate with oracle first for detection it will mess up the timing for harassment cause the oracle has to stay back to detect the Banshee. And against blink without robo there is absolutly no detection.
Or did I miss some timing issue here?
It's easy to scout cloak (gasses), Most tosses open SG/Robo and thus have detection done in time, and you invest 250/200 in useless tech that delays your economy/upgrades/units.
And IIRC, Blink all in does kinda decent vs cloakshees, not an instant loss.
Next to Banshees being inefficient worker killers compared to oracles/dts :D
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On February 18 2014 18:08 JamesDoe wrote:
Is there a reason Terrans uses no cloacked Banshees against Protosses?
Even if the Protoss start with a stargate with oracle first for detection it will mess up the timing for harassment cause the oracle has to stay back to detect the Banshee. And against blink without robo there is absolutly no detection.
Or did I miss some timing issue here?
1) Photon overcharge makes uncloaked banshees (so before cloak finishes and when it runs out) useless
2) If it is an expansion into Robo or into Stargate, observer/oracle+PO easily defends any sort of cloak play; it's an investment, but the the Protoss has an expansion finished and you just start yours
3) If it is a fast Oracle opening, the Oracle will scout the banshee+cloak before it is out and P can make a phoenix. Phoenix+Oracle can hunt down the banshee anywhere on the map, so even just leaving your base is risky. Meanwhile the Oracle still can do damage and if you are undefended when the Oracle comes in you lose straight up, while when the Protoss is undefended in that situation he will only take like half of the losses the Oracle did to you.
4) Cloaked banshee comes very late unless you skip reaper+reactor. Which is very risky since you lack scouting and marine production
*) I'm not sure how it interacts with DTs or blink play. But I could see Protoss having an advantage from transitioning into robo or even still being capable of killing you in the case of blink with blink+obs, since stim+medivacs are delayed. Against DTs it might be good.
Anyways, medivac+mines achieves something similar for less investment, less risk. This is a common build and I don't really see how cloaked banshee pressures a Protoss harder (it comes later, costs more, doesn't give you a medivac) than that. And it is basically defended in the same way. (detection+PO)
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It's not bad vs DT because you scout everything with your banshee and can make a raven, so you are safe, but it's the only situation where banshee is viable, and DT isn't that popular anymore.
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Cloaked Banshee openings in TvP died with the Oracle and MSC.
Uncloaked the MSC laughs in your face and just turns the Nexus into a 13 range flak cannon.
Even with Cloak the primary threat is that Protoss can send an Oracle that can completely nullify your cloak and follow it up with a Phoenix to kill the Banshee. Both fly faster than the Banshee does.
You are then also very vulnerable to the Oracle vaporizing your mineral line, ending the game then and there.
Blink openings can also straight up kill you (mostly just ignoring the Banshee even if its cloaked) because you'll have very little army to keep yourself alive with going for Cloak Banshee.
Back in WoL I opened Cloak Banshee often in TvP as it kept Protoss contained to his base.
Observers would only reveal the Banshee and Protoss would have to leave something at home to ward it off.
If Protoss didn't have an Observer, the Banshee could deal a lot of damage and even if he did Protoss could not risk moving out without an Observer at home AND an Observer with his army.
There was no MSC or Time Warp so Blink openings were not as deadly as they are now.
As it is, in TvP you can essentially only open with Reaper + Reactor (although I see some go CC first) or 15 gas Reactor or you risk a coinflip on whether or not a proxy Oracle is in the works. Proxy Oracle would also hit before Banshees could come out.
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On February 18 2014 18:25 Big J wrote:
*) I'm not sure how it interacts with DTs or blink play. But I could see Protoss having an advantage from transitioning into robo or even still being capable of killing you in the case of blink with blink+obs, since stim+medivacs are delayed. Against DTs it might be good.
I am not sure myself since I never tried it, so this is pure theory crafting but when you compare blink aggression timing to a banshee timing, it is obvious that banshee opening actually does nothing against blink play. You can't do economic damage early enough to slow or weaken blink and if you tech for a banshee you will have very little defense against mass blink stalkers.
So even if it were to be used only in defense you would maybe get 1 banshee out and protoss would probably snipe the techlab later since you have no other units (or maybe some marines at best) to prevent him from disabling banshee production.
And that one banshee starts with relatively low energy so it wouldn't do enough damage to all those stalkers before they cripple your economy completely.
Against DT, same thing, theory crafting, but I guess it should favor terran a bit because you can get a raven out straight after the banshee, providing you have any hint whatsoever that DT tech is on the way of course. But that is the best case scenario, I guess both sides would suffer loses if those two builds came across each other.
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On February 18 2014 22:31 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 18:25 Big J wrote:
*) I'm not sure how it interacts with DTs or blink play. But I could see Protoss having an advantage from transitioning into robo or even still being capable of killing you in the case of blink with blink+obs, since stim+medivacs are delayed. Against DTs it might be good. I am not sure myself since I never tried it, so this is pure theory crafting but when you compare blink aggression timing to a banshee timing, it is obvious that banshee opening actually does nothing against blink play. You can't do economic damage early enough to slow or weaken blink and if you tech for a banshee you will have very little defense against mass blink stalkers. So even if it were to be used only in defense you would maybe get 1 banshee out and protoss would probably snipe the techlab later since you have no other units (or maybe some marines at best) to prevent him from disabling banshee production. And that one banshee starts with relatively low energy so it wouldn't do enough damage to all those stalkers before they cripple your economy completely. Against DT, same thing, theory crafting, but I guess it should favor terran a bit because you can get a raven out straight after the banshee, providing you have any hint whatsoever that DT tech is on the way of course. But that is the best case scenario, I guess both sides would suffer loses if those two builds came across each other.
Yes, that matches somewhat the little experience I have against 1base blink. Though I think it differs greatly whether it is 1base or 2base blink, right? Since in the 2base scenario, banshees should have enough time to do some damage (against the Protoss without detection) and let you scout your opponent. So you may be able to prepare accordingly (switch techlab to fac --> tanks???) or even force the Protoss to abbandon his plan (?) since he has to get up detection as well to the probe loses he should face, right? Whether this means you did enough to justify the later expansion is of course questionable to begin with.
But I'm surely lacking the experience since I hardly play TvP these days, especially not at a reasonable level.
--> that's actually the one really big frustrating thing in TvP for me. It feels like whatever you do, nothing is really safe. Basically the only way you cannot die early is a 3rax before expansion. Not that TvP is the only situation in which this is true (e.g. Zerg 1-2base often being worse defensively than 2-3base), but it feels like the most extreme of those and the root of it is in my opinion simply that Protoss has "1 rush too much". Like, when I play as a zerg against a Protoss or Terran and I know something could be up, I can always (and that's the important part in the defensive net of zerg) build units or statics to defend right now (maybe not the right ones, but it is something I can do). It may be dynamically inefficient if I'm off, but if my intuition drawn from the limited scouting is right, I "outplay" my opponent. But in TvP, this does not really hold. I can't build that turret early and end up ahead or behind depending on whether I'm right with Oracle/DT timing or wrong. I have to include an ebay first. And I cannot pump marines fast, I have to include a reactor first.
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On February 18 2014 17:22 Ragnarork wrote:I totally agree on the fact Terran has quite a poor choice of such critical tech (the only thing that comes to mind is a proxy factory/port to bring hellions/mines in the opponent's base). But my point was about scouting options, which aren't a problem at the moment in my opinion, the most sensible match-up being, IMO, TvP, for which there's a whole lot of things to do when scouting that gives you hint about what the protoss is doing: pylons, gases, etc, plus I think the scan around 6:30 is still mandatory (though I use it since WoL without giving it that much of a reflexion...  ) Then, I think you're way more informed/knowledgable than me, so correct me if I'm wrong thinking this way 
The only thing you can deduce from a Pylon missing + dual gas is that "something is missing". Generally you can reasonably rule out proxy Immortals as the robo needs to be proxied quite close to your base, but for the rest—proxy Oracles, Blink or DT— there is no way to know as the Stargate can be built quite far, and the Council can be built absolutely anywhere on the map. Defending Blink is so tight that going even an earlier EB + 1 Turret can make you lose against commitment.
On February 18 2014 18:25 Big J wrote:
*) I'm not sure how it interacts with DTs or blink play. But I could see Protoss having an advantage from transitioning into robo or even still being capable of killing you in the case of blink with blink+obs, since stim+medivacs are delayed. Against DTs it might be good.
Cloak Banshees would be good against 2-bases Blink, but they cannot even be used as a threat since they're awful against pretty much everything else. The two last games—the two only games actually—in which I saw Cloak Banshees at top level TvP were Maru vs herO, Frost, SPL and GuMiho vs HerO, Polar Night, IEM Katowice Qualifier. Maru had a build order win since he went CC first into 3 rax + Cloak Banshee (!) against a quick third into Blink timing with no detection. From memory, GuMiho's Banshee did nothing against some expand into Stargate (Oracle + Phoenix since the MSC poke saw everything).
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France9034 Posts
On February 19 2014 03:40 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 17:22 Ragnarork wrote:I totally agree on the fact Terran has quite a poor choice of such critical tech (the only thing that comes to mind is a proxy factory/port to bring hellions/mines in the opponent's base). But my point was about scouting options, which aren't a problem at the moment in my opinion, the most sensible match-up being, IMO, TvP, for which there's a whole lot of things to do when scouting that gives you hint about what the protoss is doing: pylons, gases, etc, plus I think the scan around 6:30 is still mandatory (though I use it since WoL without giving it that much of a reflexion... ) Then, I think you're way more informed/knowledgable than me, so correct me if I'm wrong thinking this way The only thing you can deduce from a Pylon missing + dual gas is that "something is missing". Generally you can reasonably rule out proxy Immortals as the robo needs to be proxied quite close to your base, but for the rest—proxy Oracles, Blink or DT— there is no way to know as the Stargate can be built quite far, and the Council can be built absolutely anywhere on the map. Defending Blink is so tight that going even an earlier EB + 1 Turret can make you lose against commitment.
Oh right, I forgot to take into account that Blink can be hidden on the map (for now I've only encountered toss who built everything in-base), so yeah, I thought "DT's or Oracle, that still makes the Ebay mandatory if something is missing".
So right, that's indeed less scouting info than I thought
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- If zergs are allowed to make spore crawlers without an evo chamber anymore, why can't terrans be allowed to make turrets (or even sensor tower) without an ebay? Probably the biggest problem in TvP is the number of all-ins the toss has at their disposal, so if terrans are given extra defensive measures that can shore up their problems without it affecting the other matchups too much. Turrets help stop any proxy/fast oracle and dt, while sensor tower would help against blink all-ins. In the meantime, this buff wouldn't really affect tvt or tvz; by the time you would even want turrets or sensor towers you can easily afford the 125 minerals to get the ebay first. However the oracle and dt rush builds hit at a time where the 125 minerals (and the build time on the ebay) are still critical.
- I also wouldn't mind increasing the energy for time warp and PO to 125 each, then make each spell stronger accordingly. Right now a full energy MSC can do 2 spells at once which is not only too good, but doesn't reward decision making on the protoss; he's allowed to make a mistake with a MSC spell because he can do a second spell right afterwards. However if each spell was 125 energy then the toss has to make the choice of whether to time warp or PO. Each spell would get stronger to reward the correct choice.
- Everyone's mentioned multiple times that the MSC needs a vision nerf, so I won't bother with that.
- If we want Mech to not suck balls in tvp, tanks need a buff. Toss is really the only race where they can beat mass tanks with ground units which is totally dumb. The easiest buff would be to give tanks a bonus damage to shields, much like the widow mine. It makes sense because this buff would only affect tvp which is currently the only matchup where mech is utter garbage. The only potential problem would be that it could open up timing attacks, but it's unlikely to kill tosses early because PO has the same range as tanks anyway. If timing attacks do end up being a problem for whatever reason, I would not mind having a +shields damage upgrade for tanks in the factory tech lab instead.
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+ Show Spoiler +
Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now?
The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed.
By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO.
MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing.
hallucination and scan aren't comparable, every scan that Terran uses put them economically behind in fact in the early game if you scan as Terran you will probably just outright lose to an allin even if you do manage to scan it because you wont have the money the mule would have given you build the correct defenses to hold. Think of it this way, if pro Terran players can straight up lose to blink allins going "safe" builds and not scanning, how will being 270 mins behind help them to defend it better. This is not even taking into consideration that most decent protoss build their tech in less odviuse places if they are rushing or proxy it so the chance of actually scanning your opponent and getting good information about rushes are very limited. and if Terran misses a scan they have put themselves very behind not only do they not get any positive benefit from the scan but they lose the mining they could have gotten from the mule. mulling is not greed, it is necessary for Terran to not fall behind economically and thus lose the game out of the gate. further who needs ff anymore in tvp, honestly I hardly see protoss building sentries in the mu anymore. why would they? all it does is put them behind tech wise and they can use ms core to defend without them. in tvp sentries are a unit you build if you want to either bust down your opponents front door with immortals, basically a dead build, or to defend back home. since T cant really do any aggressive pushing at the front till the 10 minute mark why would you ever build a sentry?
latter on in the game scan is a great tool for scouting army movements, since money will matter less to you when your maxed out and engagements are more important, but for early game its really not a good option. You should remember Terran gets mules, to compensate for having the slowest worker production and the fact that their workers have to camp away from the min line while building anything.
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Something I thought about while watching the latest rounds of GSL today...
Looking at things from the Terran perspective and as a Terran player (no Z OP!!! or P OP!!!! from me in this post).
One major difference between Terran builds today vs in early HOTS/late WOL is that most games now include an early Reaper.
The problem is that Reapers are incredibly useless units combat-wise unless you can micro like a madman and will usually end up costing you in macro, tech and units -- at little loss to the opponent.
1. You delay your 13th SCV to make the refinery at 12.
2. You waste 75 minerals to build the refinery earlier, and end up getting your factory/starport/stim later with a lower unit cap.
3. 3 SCVs are pulled to harvest gas way too early compared to the old 1rax CC or the early reactor hellion build.
4. Reapers are basically just a gas scout, but is useless unlike the MSC (where it is actually useful enough w/ the MSC abilities early game to offset P early investment in gas).
5. Minerals otherwise lost on reaper + refinery + delayed 13th SCV + 3 SCVs mining gas too early could have been spent on making more marines, earlier factory + reactor hellion or something.
This basically puts the T behind very early game, the only potential return coming from forcing units from Z/P (which they probably would have made anyway) and doing basic scouting at a time where, if you're lucky you may be able to see the start of their tech transition (you see the Twilight Council but probably won't be in time to see if they go DT or Templar or Blink -- you see the lair but I doubt you can get to see whatever tech they go after).
Thoughts?
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On February 21 2014 20:58 mdamda wrote:
The problem is that Reapers are incredibly useless units combat-wise unless you can micro like a madman and will usually end up costing you in macro.
1. You delay your 13th SCV to make the refinery at 12.
2. You waste 75 minerals to build the refinery earlier, and end up getting your factory/starport/stim later with a lower unit cap.
3. 3 SCVs are pulled to harvest gas way too early compared to the old 1rax CC or the early reactor hellion build.
4. Reapers are basically just a gas scout, but is useless unlike the MSC (where it is actually useful enough early game to offset P early investment in gas).
This basically puts the T behind very early game, the only potential return coming from forcing units from Z/P (which they probably would have made anyway) and doing basic scouting at a time where, if you're lucky you may be able to see the start of their tech transition (you see the Twilight Council but probably won't be in time to see if they go DT or Templar or Blink -- you see the lair but I doubt you can get to see whatever tech they go after).
Thoughts?
Reapers are hard to balance, they are really fast, can heal themselves and jump over high ground, if they get buffed we can go back to the old WOL reaper rush.
I dont remember when but I think that someone at Blizzard said that reapers are a "scouting" unit and that´s what they are now: they scout, take some damage, go back, heal and scout again.
A wasted opportunity to do something awesome with a unit, another example of a feature sacrificed in the name of "balance".
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On February 21 2014 21:10 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 20:58 mdamda wrote:
The problem is that Reapers are incredibly useless units combat-wise unless you can micro like a madman and will usually end up costing you in macro.
1. You delay your 13th SCV to make the refinery at 12.
2. You waste 75 minerals to build the refinery earlier, and end up getting your factory/starport/stim later with a lower unit cap.
3. 3 SCVs are pulled to harvest gas way too early compared to the old 1rax CC or the early reactor hellion build.
4. Reapers are basically just a gas scout, but is useless unlike the MSC (where it is actually useful enough early game to offset P early investment in gas).
This basically puts the T behind very early game, the only potential return coming from forcing units from Z/P (which they probably would have made anyway) and doing basic scouting at a time where, if you're lucky you may be able to see the start of their tech transition (you see the Twilight Council but probably won't be in time to see if they go DT or Templar or Blink -- you see the lair but I doubt you can get to see whatever tech they go after).
Thoughts? Reapers are hard to balance, they are really fast, can heal themselves and jump over high ground, if they get buffed we can go back to the old WOL reaper rush. I dont remember when but I think that someone at Blizzard said that reapers are a "scouting" unit and that´s what they are now: they scout, take some damage, go back, heal and scout again. A wasted opportunity to do something awesome with a unit, another example of a feature sacrificed in the name of "balance".
Yeah, but P and Zs get scouting units that are useful after the early game. Zs with overlords you need to build and of course Ps have MSC, oracles.
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On February 21 2014 21:22 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 21:10 drkcid wrote:On February 21 2014 20:58 mdamda wrote:
The problem is that Reapers are incredibly useless units combat-wise unless you can micro like a madman and will usually end up costing you in macro.
1. You delay your 13th SCV to make the refinery at 12.
2. You waste 75 minerals to build the refinery earlier, and end up getting your factory/starport/stim later with a lower unit cap.
3. 3 SCVs are pulled to harvest gas way too early compared to the old 1rax CC or the early reactor hellion build.
4. Reapers are basically just a gas scout, but is useless unlike the MSC (where it is actually useful enough early game to offset P early investment in gas).
This basically puts the T behind very early game, the only potential return coming from forcing units from Z/P (which they probably would have made anyway) and doing basic scouting at a time where, if you're lucky you may be able to see the start of their tech transition (you see the Twilight Council but probably won't be in time to see if they go DT or Templar or Blink -- you see the lair but I doubt you can get to see whatever tech they go after).
Thoughts? Reapers are hard to balance, they are really fast, can heal themselves and jump over high ground, if they get buffed we can go back to the old WOL reaper rush. I dont remember when but I think that someone at Blizzard said that reapers are a "scouting" unit and that´s what they are now: they scout, take some damage, go back, heal and scout again. A wasted opportunity to do something awesome with a unit, another example of a feature sacrificed in the name of "balance". Yeah, but P and Zs get scouting units that are useful after the early game. Zs with overlords you need to build and of course Ps have MSC, oracles.
You are right, but once you change something with reapers to make them useful in the mid-late game you can break the early really easily, overlords and observers can´t snipe workers, reapers can.
EDIT: and oracles are not that useful in the mid-late game, they are great on early, like reapers in early WOL.
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I've always thought an upgrade from the WoL campaign would be good to boost Reapers into a mid or even lategame.
It boosted the +Light damage (I think adding +2 would be good now as it fires twice, going from 4x2 to 6x2 vs Light) and it increased the range from 4.5 to 6.0.
Keep in mind with this that Reapers have 60 health and only take up 1 supply.
Combine this with healing and the Reaper's speed and you'd have a decent raider with bonus damage to Light units.
The 6 range would allow it to stay alive and poke much more efficiently.
It would make a good upgrade on a Tech Lab with an Armory requirement.
Still, I doubt we'll ever see Reapers beyond the early game due to their build time and costing 50 gas.
I do miss the old Reaper's building attack though, no clue why they had to remove that.
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Reapers are extremely powerful for the same reasons that blink Stalkers are really powerful....
#1 and the most important because of how early they come out they are the fastest and most mobile unit that can be made at that time.....
#2 They regenerate life ( Stalker regenerate Shield) so harass and poke for units that don't have a strong mechanic like this will eventually lose out
#3 Because of the mobility if in the right hands you can split up your opponent with 2 of them and increase their effectiveness with a hit and run style. (More specifically in TvZ)
Adding light damage to the unit would make it more like a stalker even more just without the HP and more Gas SInk.
Edit: in the right hands some have claimed Reapers are OP lol
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Blizzard doesn't use upgrades well enough. Units could have sweet abilities with the cost of an upgrade to help not make them broken earlygame. For example, Marauders started with concussive shell in beta WOL, and instead of derping around the Marauder when people found out that was stupid, Blizzard just made the CS a cheap upgrade (and even going further, when they realized the upgrade costs were too much they reduced the costs). This allowed marauders to reach their full potential midgame while not being broken early on.
If Blizzard feels like making the reaper into a useful attacking unit could imbalance the game, they could think about putting some kind of upgrade to help give them this midgame potential while not breaking earlygame. For example, hellions get Blue flame for +damage. What if reapers got a +damage upgrade from the tech lab? Or if they get their WOL building attack back from an upgrade?
I feel like Blizzard could've done this to so many units. They wanted to buff the oracle but just flat out increased its speed so now it's kinda dumb (it was funny because they literally even said in that patch that pvt all-ins were a problem and then they buffed a pvt all-in). They could've put a cheap, fast +speed upgrade in a building (maybe even the cyber core, who knows?) so that midgame oracles could reach their full potential while not making oracle rushes a potential problem.
They could even do things like require MSC to research photon overcharge and/or time warp from the cyber core or something. HTs require storm to be researched, why not MSC's ability(ies)?
It's a bit late to do this kind of tinkering with new abilities, but Blizzard has one more shot with legacy of the void beta to really make units like the reaper not so 1-dimensional, and I feel like putting buffs in as upgrades would help.
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On February 21 2014 21:27 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 21:22 vthree wrote:On February 21 2014 21:10 drkcid wrote:On February 21 2014 20:58 mdamda wrote:
The problem is that Reapers are incredibly useless units combat-wise unless you can micro like a madman and will usually end up costing you in macro.
1. You delay your 13th SCV to make the refinery at 12.
2. You waste 75 minerals to build the refinery earlier, and end up getting your factory/starport/stim later with a lower unit cap.
3. 3 SCVs are pulled to harvest gas way too early compared to the old 1rax CC or the early reactor hellion build.
4. Reapers are basically just a gas scout, but is useless unlike the MSC (where it is actually useful enough early game to offset P early investment in gas).
This basically puts the T behind very early game, the only potential return coming from forcing units from Z/P (which they probably would have made anyway) and doing basic scouting at a time where, if you're lucky you may be able to see the start of their tech transition (you see the Twilight Council but probably won't be in time to see if they go DT or Templar or Blink -- you see the lair but I doubt you can get to see whatever tech they go after).
Thoughts? Reapers are hard to balance, they are really fast, can heal themselves and jump over high ground, if they get buffed we can go back to the old WOL reaper rush. I dont remember when but I think that someone at Blizzard said that reapers are a "scouting" unit and that´s what they are now: they scout, take some damage, go back, heal and scout again. A wasted opportunity to do something awesome with a unit, another example of a feature sacrificed in the name of "balance". Yeah, but P and Zs get scouting units that are useful after the early game. Zs with overlords you need to build and of course Ps have MSC, oracles. You are right, but once you change something with reapers to make them useful in the mid-late game you can break the early really easily, overlords and observers can´t snipe workers, reapers can. EDIT: and oracles are not that useful in the mid-late game, they are great on early, like reapers in early WOL.
MsC can kill workers and the worker killing power of oracle and reaper is not comparable. The thing is, the other races don't have to sacrifice their macro for a scouting unit (until Zergs need to suicide OL to see full base, and at that point, it doesn't matter as much).
Even if MSC couldn't scout, it would still be made.
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actually i think terran just needs a little late game buff, and no i dont think they need a stronger unit or something like that, they just need a way to get a quicker at with army after fights like protoss got with warp ins and zergs got with larva... so what about bringing in a late late game building from the singleplayer called the mercenary bay. this would be really great way to get some fast units after a trade or lost fight... they dont need to be actually mercenaries with better things...
does anybody like that idea... wouldnt change to much and is quite a help in lategame fro terran...
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terran doesn't need a buff against zerg at all. Any buff terran gets against toss should try and keep the ZvT matchup untouched.
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EPT
